In California, gay people rate below farm animals

[TechBear_Seattle]

As of 9:54am PST, with 96.4% (24,510 of 25,423) precincts reporting

Proposition 2: Standards for Confining Farm Animals
Requires that calves raised for veal, egg-laying hens and pregnant pigs be confined only in ways that allow these animals to lie down, stand up, fully extend their limbs and turn around freely; exceptions made for transportation, rodeos, fairs, 4-H programs, lawful slaughter, research and veterinary purposes; provides misdemeanor penalties, including a fine not to exceed $1,000 and/or imprisonment in jail for up to 180 days.

YES: 6,113,393 63.3%
NO: 3,555,798 36.7%

Proposition 8: Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry
Changes the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California; provides that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.

YES: 5,220,694 52.2%
NO: 4,792,873 47.8%





:banghead:

[midnight]

1. This is why discrimination is wrong. We should never allow

any propositions on a ballot that discriminate.

[orestes]

2. Minority rights shouldnt be subject to the prejudices of the Majority

It's just tyranny by another name

[ToolTex]

7. I think it's tyranny by the same name.

They diminish themselves, not us.

[Chovexani]

11. Tyranny of the Majority

There's a reason the founders spoke so strongly against it.

[orestes]

In this case, it's tyranny masquerading as Democracy

As has already been mentioned, it's tyranny of the Majority.

[orestes]

3. double post

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. for a while this was the case on du too

i think the rules were enforced differently in the glbt forum than in the vegetarian/animal rights forum

[TechBear_Seattle]

5. Dear, you are using the past tense again n/t

[GOPNotForMe]

6. I will always wonder how the same group of people can get some issues so right and some so wrong.

There were major victories in ballot initiatives last night from the marijuana ones to the assisted-suicide one in WA to the insane abortion ban in SD and the fetus one in CO. And CA shot down the parental notification one again and passed Prop 2.

It's mystifying. We must keep fighting.

[jonnyblitz]

8. I blame religion when things don't make sense. nt

[Chovexani]

9. That says it right there doesn't it

:puke:

[Duncan Grant]

10. Let there be no delusions about gay people's oppression and persecution.

That margin says it all. :grr:

[Spiffarino]

13. It's time to get rough

Gay rights activists need to adopt the tactics of the anti-abortion movement. No, not the violent actions of the hardcore nuts, but the images and memes: The murder, the beatings, the nastiness that characterizes the haters on the other side.

Get your ugliest pictures and stories together and get ready to turn this around in the next election. This is not over.

[Duncan Grant]

17. Unrelenting direct action that inconveniences heterosexuals in all their activities.

How 'bout I leave it at that?

[Spiffarino]

20. As a heterosexual, I admit you're scaring me a little

But I won't begrudge you anything you must do. This cannot stand.

Get on it, SF!

[mitchtv]

30. That;s good

How about some Sunday morning church visits?

[Duncan Grant]

40. And Wednesday Bible study, too. (or is that Thursday?)

Sanctimonious MFers. It's on.

[Spiffarino]

12. California seriously fucked up

It's unbelievable they would let a totalitarian faction from out-of-state change their state Constitution to DENY equal rights!

This ain't over...

[Realityhack]

14. You can say that again. The prop 8 vote is completely FUBAR.

Even if it does get voted down in the final count... it should have gone down in an epic defeat like the MA income tax.
WTF is wrong with Californians?

[cboy4]

15. I didn't even think of that. I still support Prop 2 because I

don't think animals should suffer just because there are people who believe I should.

[TechBear_Seattle]

16. So you see my point as being that animals should suffer? n/t

[cboy4]

18. I see your point as people are more concerned about

the rights of barnyard animals than human gay people.

I understand that.

All I'm saying is I'm not going to blame the animals for homophobia.

But you're right about your main point. It's outrageous.

[TechBear_Seattle]

19. Just clarifying

Your post left me a tad confused about what you were saying. :pals:

[LeftCoast]

21. That pretty much sums it up

Fucking disgusting is what it is.

[mcg]

22. These two propositions are not comparable, this is nonsense,

there is no reason to bring up Prop 2 when discussing Prop 8.
Being confined to a cage that is so small that lying down,
standing up, turning around, or even stretching a wing is
impossible is not comparable to being denied the right to marry.

I donated over $100 for passing Prop 2, it is a very important
proposition. Most people have no idea how much farm animals
suffer. Factory farms are an abomination. PETA was right,
factory farms ARE a holocaust, and saying that is not demeaning
to the victims of The Holocaust. We're talking about many billions
of animals living in torturous conditions.

Voting No to Prop 2 is far worse than voting Yes to Prop 8.

I would vote against Prop 8.

I understand your point, but your post is misguided and shows
poor strategy because the injustices are not in the same ballpark.
The cruelty addressed by Prop 2 is so much worse that even though
the victims are animals, Prop 2 is still not comparable to Prop 8.

Farm animals are not humans, but they are sentient creatures.
They may be stupid compared to people, but they are not machines.
I suspect that you don't understand just how much cruelty
factory farms inflict on animals. The size of the cages is just
the tip of the iceberg. Prop 2 is actually a very "timid" measure.
By "timid" I mean that it is very slight, it doesn't outlaw the
cages themselves, it doesn't address cutting off beaks and tails,
the treatment of downer cows, feeding cows grain instead of grass,
keeping animals confined indoors, etc.

[TechBear_Seattle]

23. Give rights to farm animals; strip rights away from gay people

Indeed, there is no comparison. :eyes:

[mcg]

25. It is an animal welfare issue, not an animal rights issue. nt

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. And animal welfare was more important that fundamental human rights

Go ahead, keep at it. What else do you have?

[Zuiderelle]

24. Are you fucking KIDDING? Human beings can die because of lack of gay marriage, not an exaggeration.

A poor gay couple, with one partner having access to employer health benefits and the other not allowed to take part in those benefits because they are not married could VERY EASILY result in the death of the partner because they cannot afford health coverage any other way. As we know, people without health coverage and without money do not go to doctors and only go to emergency rooms when it is very often too late to do anything about it. THIS IS A SERIOUS ISSUE.

I can't even go on for all the other horrific things gay people have to go through, like not being able to visit a dying spouse because of the homophobic bigotry of a hospital, or having their home and children taken away from them forever after a partner dies because the family of the partner has no regard for their rights as a couple.

Yes, causing animals to suffer is absolutely horrible and inexcusable and should be outlawed, but you are saying that is MORE important to address than gay marriage?

What the fuck. Really.

I am absolutely stunned by your lack of knowledge about what gay marriage means to be able to come into this forum and say what you just said.

Fuck.

[TechBear_Seattle]

27. You may be absolutely stunned, but I'm not

Same shit, different poster.

I'm hoping to get mcg so pissed off that he starts screaming about "irrelevant wedge issues" like such DU members always do.

[mcg]

28. That's a lot of twisting, poor assumptions, and putting words in my mouth,

as I said, I would vote No to Prop 8.

I am not saying that gay couples having equal rights is not a serious issue,
saying that it is is not an exaggeration.

[Zuiderelle]

29. No, you said " Voting No to Prop 2 is far worse than voting Yes to Prop 8."

You very clearly implied in everything else you wrote about the horrific treatment of animals that the passing of Prop 2 is MUCH more important than the rejection of Prop 8.

Don't pretend you didn't say what you said.

[mcg]

35. What is your problem? I'm not your enemy, I'm against Prop 8,

but you're getting all pissed off because I think that voting No to Prop 2 is far worse.
Yes, I think it is far worse because I think it involves a far greater cruelty, the almost
constant torture of billions of farm animals, and because Prop 2 is such a weak measure.
I am not at all pretending that I didn't say it and I see no need to apologize.

I didn't imply anything about the relative importance of the two propositions.
They are important in different ways.
I care about Prop 2 because environmentalism and animal welfare are active causes of mine.

Why don't you pick a fight with someone who is FOR Prop 8 rather than someone who
is simply less incensed about it? Or better yet, educate people about it rather than
comparing it to Prop 2, and don't assume I'm not aware of factors like visitation rights,
health insurance, etc. Your strategy makes no sense whatsoever.

[Zuiderelle]

37. I'm not picking a fight, I'm responding to you saying that animal rights are more important than

human rights. I think they are both important. You don't. You have said it. The fact that you would vote against Prop 8 doesn't change the fact that you also say that voting for Prop 2 is more important. I disagree, and since Prop 8 ultimately affects me and not you, I have every right to "pick a fight" with someone posting in the GLBT forum to say that animal rights are more important than human rights.

If you ARE aware of factors like visitation rights and health insurance and protecting children of unmarried partners, then you should know better than to come in here claiming that Prop 2 is more important than Prop 8. It's yet another slap in the face by white privilege.

[mcg]

38. No, I did not say that. I'm not going to argue with you about this. nt

[Zuiderelle]

39. You said, and I quote (again): "Voting No to Prop 2 is far worse than voting Yes to Prop 8."

You can't say that you didn't say what is in writing above in Post #22:

mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Nov-05-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. These two propositions are not comparable, this is nonsense,

there is no reason to bring up Prop 2 when discussing Prop 8.
Being confined to a cage that is so small that lying down,
standing up, turning around, or even stretching a wing is
impossible is not comparable to being denied the right to marry.

I donated over $100 for passing Prop 2, it is a very important
proposition. Most people have no idea how much farm animals
suffer. Factory farms are an abomination. PETA was right,
factory farms ARE a holocaust, and saying that is not demeaning
to the victims of The Holocaust. We're talking about many billions
of animals living in torturous conditions.

Voting No to Prop 2 is far worse than voting Yes to Prop 8.


...

[EFerrari]

31. I think that conclusion misses something important.

If you look at what passed, it was all stuff that didn't involve change, effort or money.

Treating chickens better is not something any of my neighbors will have to do. Putting ROTC back into schools is not something they will have to fund or do themselves.

Most of the things that required an adjustment of attitude ----> money, failed.

Eta: People are really stressed out right now and they're circling the wagons, all of them.

[TechBear_Seattle]

32. Yes on 8 was a vote FOR change

The measure ELIMINATED existing rights. It was an affirmative (sic) vote FOR change, away from an extant situation. As such, there was absolutely no added cost from the previous situation, not to mention that eliminating same-sex marriage would mean less money coming in as revenue from marriage licenses and taxes on the vast marriage industry.

[EFerrari]

33. Yes, a vote for change that no one would really have to contribute to.

Just like re-instituting ROTC in schools or treating chickens better.

I'm not saying this very well. The prop raised the question of social effort / change in people's minds and their "yes" vote was framed as a vote AGAINST change.

You are right. It literally was a vote FOR change. But what it did effectively was to remind people that they were being expected to change something or put some effort into something -- if only their own expectations of marriage. ("Gay marriage" is bad framing for us. It suggests that gays being married is different and more difficult than other marriages. We should never use that term. We should say equal rights, period, imho.)

[TechBear_Seattle]

34. Explain, please, now a No vote would have cost anyone any money?

How did voting to maintain the status quo represent a bigger change than voting to change it?

I believe your analysis is critically flawed.

[EFerrari]

36. Because the whole issue was framed to make the status quo

seem like big social upheaval.

It's like the question "Do you want to continue to fund abortion?" -- it's the framing that elicits the reaction. Hassled voters made lousy decisions and act on their reaction where in less stressful times, they might be more thoughtful. That's really all I'm saying. The framing was a set up at this moment.

[crikkett]

41. The high-speed rail measure won and it costs money.

FWIW I'm very unhappy that 8 passed; earlier today it seemed like there was a chance because provisional and mail-in ballots (3 million) hadn't been counted, and the margin was only something like 350,000 (about 10% of the uncounted votes).

I voted for 2 because a happier chicken tastes better than a miserable chicken, not because I value chickens more than my neighbors and friends.

[Jamastiene]

42. In my experience, most gay people are for animal rights.

Considering how we are being treated in the human world and how much we love animals, maybe we should defect from the human species and try to get rights as some new species of animal. We might get further that way AND we can be around the animals more. Hell, they love us more than people do on average anyhow. I tried it for a while in '98 (defecting from the human species) and it was a great time for me, then that asshole GWB made me have to come back to the human world to fight fight fight. I've been miserable ever since.