Straight guy perspective on Prop. 8

[FlyingSquirrel]

First off I'm in the 95% who voted "yes" in the DU poll asking whether everyone should have the right to marry. And I'm happy that such a high percentage here agree, although 5% is a significant number of dissenters in such a liberal place.

I haven't really gotten into the discussions where the African-American community is pitted against the GLBT community, because I feel it is divisive and unnecessary. For one thing, it results in stereotyping and for another thing, blaming does not usually help anything.

Anyway, what I wanted to do was try to give a non-gay perspective on why I think this wrongheaded proposition passed (I will leave it to others to discuss why it was even put on the ballot in the first place).

I'm pretty much clueless a lot of the time as to whether someone is gay or straight. I don't pay that much attention. I host karaoke twice a week at a restaurant/bar, and am friends with another host there who is gay. I knew him for several months before finding this out, and the way in which I found it out is the point of this post.

One of the bartenders was talking with me about my upcoming show, and letting me know that there was gonna be a big birthday party for the other host's husband.

And I was like, "what?"

And like an idiot, I kept asking her to repeat herself until I finally understood. I was like, "Sorry, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it." And she said, "It's really not a big deal." And I said, "Well I didn't know!" And then the issue was dropped and we continued on with the discussion about the party.

I guess part of the reason I couldn't wrap my head around it is that I know that my state has been like other states and passed some bigoted legislation attempting to ensure that marriage is only between a man and a woman, so how could they be married? I guess they must have gone to CA or something.

But the other reason is the reason why so many people voted "Yes" on Prop. 8 -- because it's truly just a culture shock and something many people still have just not managed to "get their heads around". Just the mention of a man being another man's husband stops the conversation. Someday, we can all hope, this will truly not be a big deal and the conversation will continue without interruption. But right now, it really is a big deal to many.

To me, now, after discovering that my friend has a husband, it is not a big deal. No change in our friendship, no difference at all. I have a feeling that the next time I'm talking with someone and they mention a person's husband when I might expect a wife, or wife when I might expect a husband, it will not be a conversation stopper. I'll just mentally register the fact that oh, this person's gay or lesbian and I didn't know that, and the conversation will continue on without a hitch.

Even before this incident I would have voted against Prop. 8 because to me it is a black and white civil rights issue. It's just gonna take time before enough people who are less clear on that, and less open-minded, actually go through the culture shock and emerge on the other side realizing that it's truly not a big deal - thus opening their minds further and moving the country closer to its ideals.

It will happen eventually I'm sure, and the sooner the better.

:grouphug:

[sharesunited]

1. It is a big deal to many who refuse to accept that extending rights to others is not a threat.

It is self-righteous, spiteful disapproval finding expression in petty tyranny.

[frazzled]

7. It's not really about "extending" rights ...

It's about not abridging the rights of any group. State constitutions (and all laws must past constitutional muster) must not be used to restrict rights: ever. That is why Prop 8 was wrong--no matter what your view of gay marriage--and that is the argument that proponents need to emphasize more. I know that was the discussion in the Massachusetts Legislature, and it was correct.

In sum, it's not about "giving" gay people the right to marry, like some kind of gift. The question is whether we may constitutionally restrict a right that is extended to the citizenry at large.

[sharesunited]

9. That hits a bump though. Lesbian women have the right to marry men and gay men can marry women.

So it is discrimination on the basis of orientation only, and that is an unsettled frontier in the law.

[frazzled]

10. No, no ... that is like saying that when miscegination laws were in effect ...

that it was not an abridgement of rights, because a white man could marry a white woman, etc. Those laws were ultimately found to be unconstitutional, and these will be, too, in time.

Many groups (women, African Americans) had to fight long struggles to claim their rights under the constitution, and I believe that gay people will ultimately win this battle as well. But it will be long and hard, possibly: but it will be done. Indeed, I feel that in another decade, it will seem as unremarkable to people as mixed-race marriages.

[sharesunited]

11. Loving v. Virginia was the SCOTUS case. Race is an impermissible basis to restrict marriage.

The Commonwealth failed in its argument that the law equally restricted blacks and whites.

We have the jurisprudence to effectively abolish racial and sexual discrimination.

Orientation has not yet achieved the same dignity under the law.

I completely agree that this truly is the civil rights issue of our time.

[Ian David]

2. The fight to stop Prop 8 in California is still going on in the courts. THEY need donations, too.

www.eqca.com

[bluedawg12]

3. Here is the difference between wrapping your head around

equal marriage rights for gays and the California Prop 8 vote.

California had already gone through a judicial process and found the ban against marriage equality unconstitutional.

Gays were already getting married in California.

This VOTE WAS NOT ABOUT GRANTING RIGHTS is was about TAKING AWAY RIGHTS that were already in place.

Something like 18,000 GLBT couples had already married.

All people had to do was vote "NO!"

No money. No marching. No big deal for marriage equality. Just vote "No." Push a button. "No."

[FlyingSquirrel]

4. In reality,

the thing they need to wrap their heads around is the fact that they don't really have the right to define marriage and that they don't have the right to decide whether someone else can or cannot marry. It's not even their fuckin' business.

*sigh*

I think actually I was probably too nice in my OP. It's like the millions who voted for W. the second time around. You just want to shake them, bang their heads against a wall and say "WAKE UP!"

[fasttense]

5. Straight gal perspective on Prop 8

I'm usually pretty good at figuring out who is Gay or Lesbian. I can usually tell within an hour but I really don't care.

I care that ignorant, nasty people are trying to take away my sister's and brother's right to happiness. I despise that they think my family and friends can be targets and pawns for their political games. I loath that they think they can judge others and find them failures simply for being different. Isn't there something different about all of us?

If I stand back and let them take away the rights of my family and friends, when are these same people going to turn on me?

[bluedawg12]

8. That was exactly it--it wasn't granting rights - it was taking away rights

The law already on the books.

[DarkTirade]

6. Heh, your response kinda reminded me of when I came out to my brother.

His response was, "Huh. I didn't know that." And that was it. :P

[Howardx]

12. another straight guy perspective

lets get it done, its the right thing to do and once done it will take a huge GOP wedge away.