Do we want to be liked or do we want to be seen as a force?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

This question has been haunting me for a few days. What is our mission here (not du but in the united states)? Do we want to win hearts and believe that in this manner we will eventually be given our rights? Or do we want to be seen as a forceful minority? Force either in terms of protests, boycotts, monetary boycotts etc

At the mormon church protest, i had a sign that said "if you can have 5 underage wives, why can i have one adult wife?" One of the organizers asked me to put it away because we don't want to shame the mormons. We want to be liked and respected. I put it away even though i disagreed in principle. I think what they did deserved shame.

However I wanted to get your opinions on what we should do now. Should we keep going on trying to appease the religious communities, or should we start boycotts, sit-ins etc. What should be our way?

YES ON 8 Passing has given us a very good opportunity to reunite once again as a community. this is the time to do what we can. While we are all still engaged and enraged with this process.

[Zuiderelle]

1. Force. I've come to the conclusion that some people will never like us.

Just as many racists will never like blacks. BOYCOTTS are the way to go now. We pressured Anita fucking Bryant decades ago, we have more power now... let's USE IT.

We can win hearts later, it is no longer anywhere in my playbook to play by their rules.

[jonnyblitz]

11. I agree. I was with Pri when the guy told her to put the sign

away last night. the people there loved it and were taking pictures of her holding her sign one after the other until he showed up. he reminded me of DUers who say don't be mean to the Mormons and I was kind of pissed he did that but I moved on. but yeah, I agree completely with your post.

[bitchkitty]

2. You ARE a force.

This is America, at least it used to be, and may be again. So I think that boycotts and protests are more than called for, they are our patriotic duty.

If someone is not going to like you because you demand the same rights as they have, then they aren't worth your affection.

[closeupready]

3. You summed it up perfectly.

n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

5. The huge protests didn't really work for the war movement and they were world-wide.

n/t

[Radical Activist]

10. I disagree.

The protests did affect public opinion and helped build a community within the peace movement.

The problem is that most peace groups treated protests like they were supposed to accomplish something by themselves instead of viewing them as step one in a larger plan. Protests can help but not if that's the only tactics you're using.

[bitchkitty]

15. One protest, however huge, is not a solution.

Ten protests, makes some noise. 100 protests, it starts to sink in. A thousand protests later...

Of course, if the media doesn't cover those protests, they might not be as effective as they could. It would be a lot harder to ignore multiple, ongoing demonstrations. I also know that boycotts can be effective. Ask Rosa Parks!

I don't think you should have to play nice and say "please, sir, can we be equal?". But that's not to say it will be easily accomplished, or that this will be your last disappointment in this war.

But it's worth fighting for, right?

[Downtown Hound]

19. I think they accomplished a lot more than we will ever know

It's hard to judge what effect they ultimately had, but all I know is, when I went to my first anti-war march in 2003, the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress and a majority of Americans supported going to war. Six years later, we have a black, anti-war president and Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress. Of course there were many other factors that led to this, but I'm willing to bet that all those protests played a part in there somewhere.

[mondo joe]

20. Different thing. The war protests were against governments that had already

made decisions, and ultimately had nothing to fear from protestors.

In the case of Prop8 (the broad case, not just the actual proposition), we can strike beck economically, and let people know the risk they take.

[Eryemil]

25. People do not change their minds, they die off.

I think we've debased ourselves enough. We do have power, overwhelming as the odds might seem we have many straight allies willing to fight besides us.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

4. How about running ads? Show some gay people who have been together for years, etc.

Educate people on how this is not going to cost them lots of money. I live in Naples Florida which is NOT a very conservative area socially - we don't have a lot of fundies here at all but the bill passed by about 68%. People were quoted in the paper and on the tv as saying that they voted against it because they thought it would cost them a lot of money.

[Warpy]

6. Both, of course

but no matter how likable you are and how much you strive to accommodate the rest of the world, some of the people in it will always strive to be assholes.

That's when the force part comes in.

[bluedawg12]

7. We want a seat at the table of humanity

I don't care if they like me or approve.

Justice is not about being liked.

If diplomacy worked, if out reach worked then those businesses and those people who come into contact with gays daily, or as family members would have not been able to vote Yes.


"YES ON 8 Passing has given us a very good opportunity to reunite once again as a community"
Exactly!

[Radical Activist]

8. Major change never happens by asking nicely.

You can take my thoughts with a grain of salt since I'm not gay, but I'm wondering if there's a major shift going on right now with the reaction to prop 8.

People are used to being able to oppose gay rights without any negative consequences. The forces of bigotry are used to knowing that a majority will agree with them and that most gay people in most parts of the country (outside some major cities) will stay quiet in the background. The protests, boycotts and direct action tactics that are starting to happen in response to the prop 8 vote could change that forever. Those methods are how most other movements have accomplished real progress.
Letting the funders and leaders know that there will be consequences from now on will make them think twice next time. The defeat of prop 8 woke up a lot of people and I'm starting to hope that the backlash will be more than the bigots bargained for.

[yardwork]

9. I've been thinking the same thing. I think we're witnessing a watershed event.

I believe that Propositioin 8 will be remembered as a pivotal event, an event that changed things forever.

[Radical Activist]

12. I hope so.

The watershed event for me personally was Matthew Shepard and the campus vigils I went to afterward. That's when I went from merely having tolerance for the GLBT community to actively doing something to support gay rights. I think all the attention this is getting, especially on the California based TV shows, is affecting people outside CA and outside the gay community.

[madmadmad]

24. i've been thinking the same thing...

it's the stonewall of our generation.

i agree with the accusations- we were to complacent and did not organize opposition effectively. i know i was too complacent- sure, i donated to no on 8, bought some yard signs, sent some emails, but honestly i NEVER believed prop 8 had a chance of passing- i though we were too evolved, that california was a leader in these things, and that surely, once the right had been given, no one (out side of a few conservatives) would try to take it away.

i was wrong. and now i'm done with being nice- we've already tried that and it failed. do i believe in violence? no. but it's not violent to point out that churches are fomenting hate, and using lies and scare tactics to scapegoat a small minority group. we can't let that happen. be peaceful, be respectful, but never back down and never give in.

it's time to take a stand.

[TechBear_Seattle]

13. "It is best to be both feared and loved"

"However, if one cannot be both it is better to be feared than loved." -- Niccolò Machiavelli, The Prince

[Parche]

14. I love your sign!!

I would have, and know you probably did also, waive the sign in their face

Sounds like they are hippokrits, Mormons, we dont want to offend them, but they can
take away peoples rights. :grr: :grr:

:hi: :hug:

[Cronus Protagonist]

16. False dichotomy

Both are achievable at the same time, and other interpretations are possible.

[Downtown Hound]

17. In my opinion you shouldn't have put the sign away

Nobody has the right to police your protest tactics except the police themselves. Just because somebody organized the march doesn't give them the right to dictate what marchers put on their signs when they show up. Plus, I'm all for shaming the Mormons. I am not gay but I think that at this point, after everything you've been through, you have the right to vent your anger and not worry so much about what people think. It seems to me that trying to be liked hasn't gotten you equal rights yet, so if I were you, I'd go for trying to be a force.

[mondo joe]

18. Both. The best of friends to our friends, and cutthroat with our enemies.

We're not going to win over everyone.

We need to have, or win over, some critical mass of allies who believe in equal civil rights.

Those who can't be won over, or are too hard to be win over, need to stay out of our fucking way. I think examples need to be made of the economic payback that can be expected for those who attack our families.

I may sound melodramatic, but I mean it. We should be the best of friends to our friends, and cutthroat with our enemies.

[keepCAblue]

21. Gadflies. .. As MLK said, in order to force the oppressors into negotiation...

...you must create social tension, make the oppressor uncomfortable, inconvenienced and hurt their pocketbooks.

Those who campaigned, volunteered, funded and voted to strip a fundamental right from a protected class of minority have, in so doing, declared war on us. Are we going to politely let them trample our rights and shit on our dignity, or are we going to fight back, fighting fire with fire. They started it. Let us be the ones to finish it.

This is nothing less than war.

[RedLetterRev]

22. Being quiet got us shoved deeper into the closet

Being nice got us beaten and sometimes killed. Being polite got us run over time and time again.

I'm old enough now not to give a damn whether they like me or not. I have earned my place at the table.

I have served my country with honor. I have obeyed its laws. I have served my community. I have paid my taxes. I have done everything any other good citizen has done, yet I have been denied an equal place at the table simply because of the way I was born.

No human being deserves to have to say that, neither for their complexion, nor for their faith, nor for their orientation.

This country has been bullied by a few loudmouthed bigots for long enough. It's time for them to either grow up and get with the program or sit down and STFU.

If I must be a force and take what is rightfully mine, so be it. I have asked nicely and have been either outright denied or shushed and told to wait. I ain't gettin' any younger. Before I die, I will marry the man I love and who loves me. We've earned that much.

[AntiFascist]

23. I hold out hope that Prop 8 will get quickly overturned...

but this could also quickly end the protest efforts. At that point we still need to protest and come up with effective ads to counter any recall efforts of the CA SC judges. At that point we can make a very good case that the Religious Right and the Mormon Church are trying to destroy the Constitution!

[RetiredTrotskyite]

26. Way To Go, Lioness!!!!

The people that told you to put away your sign for fear of "shaming the Mormons" are a bunch of wimps! I am sick to fucking DEATH of people who are worried about the wittel feewings of the oppressors. The Mormons have done nothing but spread hate about us from long before the start of the Prop H8 campaign. I don't give a good goddamn if the Mormons are shamed! They deserve it. Maybe Mormons who were actually against Prop H8 will wake the hell up and find a church which really reflects their beliefs and values.

We've made nice in attempting to get our rights...now it's time to pull off the gloves and start swinging...boycotts, sit-ins...throw the fucking sink at 'em.

These people don't give a shit about our rights and our feelings. Why the hell should we worry about theirs? I'm sick to death of people telling us to be nice little gays while churches and bigots run roughshod over our rights, tired of being told to shut up and go to the back of the bus. I'm tired of people who should know what oppression and prejudice are through long bitter experience turn around and vote to take away the rights of others. Now, it's time to throw everything we've got into the fray. Making nice has got us nowhere.

[terrya]

27. We wanted to be liked during the Clinton Presidency and look where that got us.

It's time to be forceful. It's time to be angry.

[dropkickpa]

28. I've never wanted to be liked

Just respected. Fuck the bigots in their ears, playing nicey nice hasn't gotten anyone shit. Stonewall wasn't joining hands and playing ring around the rosy.

[Amimnoch]

29. All or nothing usually equals nothing.

Like any successful movement, I fully believe it takes a balance.

In order to succeed, we have to win over hearts and minds where we can, and use force where it's needed. Balance is definitely the way to go imho.

When it comes to Lionesspriyanka having to put the sign away.. no, I think that was a perfect sign to get the point across.

I've sort of been in the closet here on DU.. not our closet, but a different one. I work in the oil field, offshore drilling to be specific. I've avoided talking about my work and avoided oil drilling threads because I know my occupation is not welcome here.. but I feel a need to bring it up now because it is kind of relevant to this topic.

I work on an offshore drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico as a Chief Engineer. I started with this company 5 years ago. Needless to say, this is a work environment that is typically very unfriendly to our community as a whole, and my rig was no exception. After 6 years in the US Navy, from 1989 to 1995, I'd sworn to myself I would never lie about my orientation again. When I arrived on the rig, I managed to avoid direct questions about my personal life for the better part of a year until I had the question posed to me directly in the break room "Why haven't you found a good woman to settle down with?". Well, I answered directly, "because I'm gay, and I already have a very good man in my life." I was met with shocked silence for a while, then a mess of questions. I answered the civil questions, and shut off discussion about personal, or sexual ones. To make a long story short, it has been a long journey to where I'm at now, but through diplomatic handling of my orientation, I've managed to win over quite a few "rednecks" to our way of thinking. Of course there's still some on the rig that avoid me as much as they can, but overall I've made great progress in winning some pretty darn close minded people over. If I'd had taken a heavier handed approach, I'd probably be in a different job now, and many here would still be as closed minded as they were before.

A few things I've learned in life.. always give your opponent the benefit of the doubt first, and always try to reason before forcing. Even the ones that you are sure will never come around to your way of thinking can occasionally surprise you.

[bluedawg12]

30. Everyone of us knows straight people

who like us. It is not enough. Your situation is quite different and some form of acceptance is needed for all to survive in a closed environment.

As a political movement we need to work on a simple message: this is about justice and equality for all.

Period.

Then, we fight in the Courts, no more voting on human rights and the tyranny of the majority.

[Jamastiene]

31. We've been asking nicely for ages now and have nothing to show for it.

Sit-ins, protests, boycotts, never let up, never give up, never give in.