An unfair attack on white gays

[davidinalameda]

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-naff12-2008nov12,0,263271.story

In all the post-election commentary about California's passage of Proposition 8, perhaps none was more offensive and wrong than Jasmyne A. Cannick's Times Op-Ed article, "No-on-8’s white bias.”

Cannick's piece raises important questions about the politically correct double standards that govern debate of gay rights issues. When white evangelical Christians (or Mormons, for that matter) attack gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender people, the response is loud and harsh: Bigots! Homophobes! Haters! But when black religious leaders attack gays, which is a regular occurrence in many churches, the response is muted because, well, it's a cultural thing and we white people just wouldn't understand. Bigotry is bigotry, whether emanating from the pulpits of white churches or black ones.

Cannick writes, "But even I wasn't inspired to encourage black people to vote against the proposition. ... I don't see why the right to marry should be a priority for me or other black people. Gay marriage? Please. At a time when blacks are still more likely than whites to be pulled over for no reason, more likely to be unemployed than whites, more likely to live at or below the poverty line, I was too busy trying to get black people registered to vote, period; I wasn't about to focus my attention on what couldn't help but feel like a secondary issue."

The argument that many black voters are too preoccupied with more practical matters to think too much about gay marriage is not entirely illegitimate. But it's an argument for apathy, not a rational or legitimate justification for actively supporting discriminatory laws.

*************************

When I first read Cannick's column on Tuesday, I was thinking many of the same things as this author did

why are we afraid to call out bigots no matter what color they are?

[readmoreoften]

1. I'm unconvinced that working-class lesbian families of color can't use joint health insurance

and tax breaks.

[closeupready]

2. That op-ed has already been debunked. She was, just days earlier, FOR gay marriage.

Then Prop. 8 passed, and suddenly she 'never really cared about marriage, anyway'.

[bluedawg12]

8. Are you serious?

Any links? Un-freaking-real. That article caused so much anger.

[closeupready]

14. Yep. Here's the link

http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2008/11/08/who-dropped-acid-in-jasmyne-cannicks-coffee

But I'm not certain now about the timing in terms of when she changed her mind precisely. Nonetheless, how do you go from supporting equal rights to "this is not a priority"? :crazy:

[bluedawg12]

40. Thanks for link

I think that might explain something, she got pressure to stop her open support. Just guessing.

[yardwork]

3. There's a false dichotomy raised by Cannick and others.

Cannick says "Gay marriage? Please. At a time when blacks are still more likely than whites to be pulled over for no reason, more likely to be unemployed than whites, more likely to live at or below the poverty line, I was too busy trying to get black people registered to vote, period; I wasn't about to focus my attention on what couldn't help but feel like a secondary issue."

BUT how much trouble does it take to vote NO on a proposition that will take away an existing right to marry? How much time and energy would that drain from other efforts? The answer - zero. People voting at the polls on election day had a choice - they could vote Yes on Prop 8 and support bigotry, or vote No on Prop 8 to keep things the way they were.

The fact is that several major institutions and thousands of people went way out of their way to dream up Proposition 8, get it on the ballot, and encourage millions of people to support it. While they were doing that they weren't spending that money or time on any of the many problems facing people of color and everyone in this country.

How much time and energy and money does it take to decide to vote no to a bigoted measure?

[bluedawg12]

10. Pushing a button to say no to Hate8 - cost no tax dollars

no one was asked to donate from imrpverished communities, no one was asked to march on our behalf, we were fighting to stop Hate8 while at the same time GLBTQ's were working feverishly for then candidate Obama, we expected a coalition that would stand together on justice and human/civil rights. It did not.

[davidinalameda]

12. I don't like much of what I've seen written by her

she's been willing to kick us under the bus even though she's one of us

she's what some African-Americans would call an Uncle Tom

on her website, she says that she says the following

First, the way I can judge whether an article I wrote was any good is by the response that I receive about it. In the case of the L.A. Times’ op-ed, of the few the emails that I’ve had time to read, about 90 percent of white gays are angry at me and about 99 percent of black people loved it. Now ask me whose opinion matters more to me?

gee, does that sound more than a bit racist?

[Psyop Samurai]

36. She seems to be going out of her way to stoke division... /nt

[davidinalameda]

38. it's an attention thing

she's just another publicity whore on the same level as Ms. Coulter and Matt Drudge

[xchrom]

4. the we don't want to discuss is that antigay bigotry crosses all spectrums.

from liberal to conservative to black evangelicals to atheists and so on.

[davidinalameda]

5. that's evident on this website

[LostinVA]

6. I thought this was about the thread in GDP today -- seriously

ood OP/ED. Thanks.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. its an unfair attack on intelligence to pit one right against the other

as though one would happen at the expense of the other

[nichomachus]

9. Somebody needs to tell this jerk-off

that if they can take away rights we already have under the constitution, they can take away rights he has under the constitution. It's not about gay rights. It's about taking away constitutional rights from a minority group. If they can do it to gays, they can do it to blacks, Jews, atheists, you name it. So, this dipshit could find himself sitting in the back of the bus some day.

[noiretextatique]

11. as a black lesbian, i am sure she is well aware of that

since black americans were still second class citizens in this country until the 1970's. like it or not, per the author, her priorities are elsewhere. however, it seems she did vote no on 8...i would hope she did anyway.

[nichomachus]

15. Well, maybe when her rights are in jeopardy

I might have "other priorities" too

[noiretextatique]

22. her rights were in jeopardy...she's a black lesbian

and from what i can tell, she actually voted no on 8. anything else?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. people rationalize things that cause them cognitive dissonance

she cannot hate her own community, yet voting yes on 8 prove that they sure hate her. so this is the way she rationalizes it.

[noiretextatique]

23. bs...i am a black lesbian who voted no on 8

i detest the black people who supported this POS...as much as the white, asian, and lations who did, you know, that forgotten 5.2 million or so. please show me where in article the writer indicated she voted no on 8. thanks.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. how is that bs, i assume the author voted no on 8 too, however she is hideously

trying to rationalize those who did vote yes on 8, esp those from her own community

[noiretextatique]

26. i think she is being intentionally provacative

to keep this discussion afloat. i think there are several issues that she brings up, though unplesant, that do deserve discussion. i think there is perception among some people that gay marriage is "special rights." i think there is also a false belief that gayness is a "white thing," perhaps even a rich, privileged white thing.

i am not saying these perceptions are correct, but i believe that type of thinking might explain some of the YES votes, from all races. add in the culture of machismo, socio-economic realities, church influence...that adds up to a lot of deluded people.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. either way her logic is terribly flawed. i do think there is a place to talk

about homophobia in minority communities, not just yours but mine as well. du just seems to not be the place.

[noiretextatique]

31. i agree...not the place

i do wish someone would address my comments about racism in the gay community. if we are to have this discusssion, then we need to discuss it all.

[jonnyblitz]

28. you mean she is focusing on the fly on the elephants ass

instead of looking at the big picture?

[noiretextatique]

30. YES...i believe she is...and she is venting

i am not sure why, but it's clear to me that she doesn't feel solidarity with the gay community.

[bluedawg12]

41. Do you think she was pressured into changing her previous pro gay stand?

Because it looks like she was trying to speak up for it before and then after the vote she changed.


....
http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2008/11/08/who-dropped-acid-in-jasmyne-cannicks-coffee/

This is how Jasmyne Cannick wrote about the ‘08 election, which was “not just about the war, Social Security, universal healthcare, and the economy. It’s also about putting an end to lawful discrimination and having the guts to take a real position, the right position, on unpopular issues. It’s about reparations and America apologizing for slavery as much as it’s about my rights as a lesbian to marry the woman of my choice…legally.”

This is what she thinks today, and why, while canvassing for Obama, she “wasn’t inspired to encourage black people to vote against” Proposition 8 because the “white gay community never successfully communicated to blacks why it should matter to us above everything else.”

....

[noiretextatique]

48. no, i don't think she was pressured

after a cursory read, she sounds like she's using black natonalism to justify her position. while i understand where she's coming from, i don't understand why she would support a position against her own best interest (she is a lesbian) to apparently punish gay people who are white. it really doesn't make any sense. i can only conclude that she is, perhaps unwittingly, working against the interests of black people and gay people.

[bluedawg12]

56. noiretblu - thank you!

You know, I think there is a need for GLBTQ's to keep dialogue open, not because of race - which is a social and not genetic construct- nor to keep the whole black/white/gays issue on the same level of discourse, but to move on to the next level, get some understanding about various experiences of gays in their own community and to figure out what to do next to build unity.

I really believe that being gay is inclusive and really want to avoid any division among GLBTQ's along cultural or and ethnic lines. Also, I personally want to get beyond this period of apparent division between progressives on social issues.

For what it's worth, I expect bigotry from certain white factions, have railled against it, and have felt it in real life. I never felt it from the black community, personally, and I was stumped.

Which pretty much goes to show you that I probably don't understand the term black nationalism unless, it means something along the context of identity. I need to do more reading and any thoughts and insights are welcome.

thanks for your reply-

bd12

[noiretextatique]

67. well, the nationalism i see reflected in that article

is the false notion that the plight of black people is more important than gay rights. as you mention in your other post, we are all getting played by the rw.

[bluedawg12]

90. Thank you - it makes sense these desperate rw ploys

to play factions against each other. We're cool, I am just catching up from this afternoon and did not want to not reply. We agree!

[noiretextatique]

91. Election Irregularities Surfacing Re: California's Proposition 8!

well, well, well...perhaps this explains the disinformation campaign.

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/electionstrikeforce/

Exit Poll Shows DEFEAT of Same-Sex Marriage Ban!

The Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgender (GLBT) Community and its supporters nationwide are mourning and organizing in the wake of last week's announced 52-48% passage of Proposition 8, which eliminates the rights of same-sex couples to marry in the state of California. But an accurate count of the votes may not yet have occurred, according to early indications.

[noiretextatique]

13. do you think this is productive?

continuing to fan the flames of this false issue? here's an example of why it's false: me.
i am an example of the black people who haven't been talked about much since Prop 8 passed: i am a black lesbian who voted no on 8.

guess what white gay people: there are some black homophobes. there are some black gay people who think gay marriage is not a priority in their lives. there are some black people who voted for mccain and bush. so fucking what?

why are black people still the focus of prop 8 when we are approximately 7% of the population and there were 5+million votes cast for YES on 8?

by all means: call out bigotry wherever you see it. there is no "double standard." and while we are talking about bigotry...let's talk about one the most segregated places in the the ohso liberal bay area: the castro, yes the "gay mecca." guess who that area is a mecca for? well, it's not black lesbians. and let's also talk about the big gay taboo: the mistaken belief that gay people aren't racists and bigots. it seems real easy to see that with black people...
but how about white, gay people?
http://www.shirleyqliquor.com/
http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/2005/05/04/gay_racism_in_t

i can tell you from my experience that the gay community is no more or less racist than any other community.

i am disappointed in that 70%+ statistic from exit polls (!?) and i do think it speaks to an issue that needs to be addressed. but...please, let's not pretend that's the ONLY problem.

[LostinVA]

16. do you think this is productive?

Minorities voting away other minorities civil rights is shameful and repulsive.

[noiretextatique]

17. magical negroes don't exist

real people do. real people vote against their and other people's interests all the time, as evidenced by the reagan and bush eras (well, aside from the theft). it's shameful...but it IS. so now...it's not at all productive to keep talking about a result that would have occurred without the 6% of 5 million.

[davidinalameda]

19. it's evil

it's more than just shameful and repulsive

these people who profess to be Christians obviously missed a good part of what Jesus said about loving one's neighbor

you don't vote to take away someone's rights

[noiretextatique]

20. i assume it's equally evil for the white, latino and asian

christians.

[LostinVA]

21. do you think this is productive?

[noiretextatique]

24. yes...i think TRUTH is far more productive than half-truths

i think it's far more productive to talk honestly about the big picture rather than focusing on the fly on the elephant's ass.

[LostinVA]

45. do you think this is productive?

[noiretextatique]

49. it's more productive than infighting

and scapegoating, as the author of the article is doing. i understand why people are outraged, but i think it's more productive to focus on the big picture. i hope that includes the ca supreme court rendering this entire issue moot by striking down Prop 8. the courts, at least in modern times, have been the place where minorities find protection from the majority.

[davidinalameda]

33. no, its not

for latinos and asians yes

for women in general yes

anyone who has ever been the victim of discrimination, it is evil

whites are a majority in this country and I'd be willing to bet that most white straight males have never been the victim of discrimination

their votes for Prop 8 are just ignorant

[noiretextatique]

50. did "the white gay community" support affirmative action?

even though white gay people suffer from discrimation? my guess is that white gay people supported affirmative action to about the same extent white straight people did. are white gay people who don't support affirmative action "evil?"

unfortunately, homohatred is sacred to some, some much so that they don't perceive it as the prejudice that it is. you can expect people who have been discrimanated against to magically rid themselves of that hatred, but you will continue to be disappointed.

[Zuiderelle]

54. Actually, white gay people support affirmative action MUCH more than white straight people.

It's a pretty logical extension based on the fact that a LARGE majority of white gays are democrat, and democrats by-and-large support Affirmative Action. White straights have a much smaller proportion of democrats, and I don't know many republicans (actually I don't know any) who support Affirmative Action.

[noiretextatique]

58. i'd like to see some numbers

because the white gay people i know were are resentful about affirmative action as were straight white people. even some democrats do not support affirmative action. try a poll here if you need confirmation.

[Zuiderelle]

60. I know that some democrats oppose it just as some democrats oppose civil rights (apparently)

But I will try to post a poll if it makes the point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4461745&mesg_id=4461745

Please do consider that to get an accurate measure, you will have to judge by percentages and not raw numbers (obviously).

So, if 80 straight white people support it and 30 do not, while 10 white gay people support it and 3 do not, it will show that white gay people support it more than white straight people.

ALSO, it will only show the results of gay democrats, which of course goes back to my earlier point that gays support AA more than straights by sheer virtue of the fact that there are more democratic gays than there are republicans.

[noiretextatique]

63. yes, unfortunately 5 million californians voted for Prop 8

i am not sure how many were democrats, but obviously some were.

[Zuiderelle]

97. Here's your poll... showing that gays support AA more than straights,,,

Which isn't all that surprising to me...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4461745

I am straight and I DO support it........(35 votes, 50%)
I am a straight and I DO NOT support it..(21 votes, 30%)
I am GLBT and I DO support it............(11 votes, 16%)
I am GLBT and I DO NOT support it........(3 votes, 4%)

35 straights of the 56 that responded support AA, or 62.5%
11 GLBTs of the 14 that responded support AA, or 78.6%

Extend that to ALL GLBT versus straights and the difference would be much larger, since this poll is limited to a democratic community here. A larger percentage of gays are democrats than straights, and democrats support AA in much higher numbers than republicans.

[noiretextatique]

98. i'm an accountant

your sample size is rather small, even for this place with 130,000+ members. sorry...that proves nothing.

[davidinalameda]

80. I don't know if the white gay community supported and continues to support

affirmative action

I did, and still do

anyone who is a member of a minority group who supports discrimination against any minority group is evil

I have never said that the GLBT community is perfect

[noiretextatique]

84. no, people aren't evil...they are ignorant

they are made stupid by religion and other beliefs that tell them it's ok to behave in hateful ways against some people. we've seen the results of that plan (the rw's cultural wars) over the past 28 years...from the bell curve to Prop 8.

it is not surprising to me that some black people are a willing participants in that war. no community is perfect.

[davidinalameda]

86. ignorant is when you don't know better

evil is when you do

minorities who voted against Prop 8 knew better since they've been on the receiving end of discrimination

[noiretextatique]

88. so white bigots get a pass? sorry...that just doesn't make sense

you will continue to be disappointed (and resentful) if you expect people to behave a certain way based of the color of their skin, or the experiences you think they've had. someone got insulted when i used the term "magical negro" to describe this expectation, but i think it was appropriate.

some religious people, including ones of color, believe homosexuality is a sin...that's just the reality. some people, including ones of color, don't believe GLBT people should have any rights or any protections under the law. they are assholes, just like the white assholes who share their beliefs.

Prop 8 is a lot like affirmative action: a resentful majority took away what they perceived as "special rights."

[Chulanowa]

29. The article the lady wrote is still bullshit

She had "other priorities" - to cite her example, the unbalanced ratio of black to white drivers that get pulled over. Yes, that's a problem. However, was there a "don't pull black people over?" measure on the California ballot? Honest question since I don't know, but I'm going to wager that there wasn't.

Next she makes the argument that supporting gay rihts diminishes support for black rights. That's just idiotic, yet it's what the author being cited says.

She then goes on to engage in some sort of knee-jerk populism, blaming ll the rich white gay people for being rich and white and gay and thus getting no support from blacks, because I guess in her world, black people can't stand rich people, white people, or gay people, much less all three in one place (nevermind that they certainly aren't all rich, there's plenty of gay people of all races, and... Okay, got me on the gay part I guess).

Basically her entire article is "I didn't support equal rights for gays (even though she did before she didn't) because there were more important issues (actually there weren't) and support for gay marriage undermines support for other minorty rights (bullshit) and it's all the fault of rich white gay elitists anyway (yeah sure it is).

[noiretextatique]

some people might have a hard time supporting

something they perceive as special rights for special people. of course, the gay marriage has been framed that way by the black religious right for years.

i think, perhaps unintentionally, that's the point i get from her article.

[mondo joe]

34. If equality is seen as special rights for special people, that's the result of a fucked up

bigot's mind.

[noiretextatique]

52. i absolutely agree...now what?

we can continue to parse the opinion of one blogger endlessly, as if she speaks for an entire community, or we can wait for the supreme court to rule. i am confident that the court will rule against Prop 8, and hopefully we can start building some bridges that some insist on further tearing apart.

[mondo joe]

85. If you ask me, push on the California court on Prop 8; see where we get with the

Supreme Court; conduct very public protests AND boycotts of Prop 8 supporters in an almost random way so they wll think twice about doing such a thing again.

In short, while working on the courts, be the best of friends to our allies, but cutthroat with our enemies.

[bluedawg12]

37. this is honest

"...the gay marriage has been framed that way by the black religious right for years. "

The religious right seems to be the socialy conservative majority.

"...I think, perhaps unintentionally..."

That rings hollow.

[noiretextatique]

53. what is hollow about it?

i said the author, perhaps unintentionally, made it clear (at least to me) that the rw has been successful in framing gay marriage as "special rights." i think the obvious point of her article was to piss off white gay people.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. you think the religious right of any race in UNintentionally bigoted

now, thats a joke.

[noiretextatique]

51. sacred hatred

do you think people who are passionate about "protecting marriage" recognize themselves as bigots? i mean the shock troops, not the big money folks. i don't think they do; i believe they are sincere in their beliefs, as misguided and fucked up as they are.

[mondo joe]

35. Oh there are certainly racist and bigoted gays.

And I think all Prop 8 did was to expose a divide that has been there for a long time.

[davidinalameda]

43. there are bigoted white gays just like there are bigoted black gays and hispanic gays and asian gays

does that justify the vote for Prop 8?

[mondo joe]

44. Nothing justifies Prop 8's passage. Nothing.

And I don't think you'll ever find a post of mine implying that anything could.

If gays were the most wealthy, bigoted, elitist jackasses, we'd still deserve equal rights and nothing could justify denying those rights.

What I was trying to say in the previous post is that Prop 8 didn't cause what I see as a rift in the straight AA/gay communities - it just exposed what was already there.

[Psyop Samurai]

46. Totally agree...

...and I don't feel the rift is corrected by suppressing dialog.

Our lives intersect in various ways and affect each other. All the righteous indignation in the world won't solve anything. But once issues have been brought to the fore, if we just sweep them under the rug, they'll still be there in ten years.

I've gone from hurt/angry to bemused.

White folks don't "get it" - hell yeah... But magic negroes? - lol! How about magic Democrats? How about all those quotes from Coretta King we consider self-evident? I don't know what Jackson's Rainbow Coalition in '88 meant to you, but I can tell you what it meant to me and some of my gay friends. Now it turns out we're insufferably naive - and worse - to even bring it up!

Honestly, now that I'm done being insulted, I find it pretty funny. No one speaks for a whole group, and that's always good to keep in mind. But it seems to me there's been a lot of revisionist history lately, and I don't sense that the revision favors GLBT people. We need solutions, not excuses.

[noiretextatique]

69. and then there was bull connor and george wallace

pat robertson and jerry falwell.
there are black republicans and there are black homophobes, just as there are white ones. some people seem really shocked by that reality, which i think is bizarre. i am appalled by homophobic bigotry, but i don't find it any more or less appalling if the bigots are black.

the anger i've witnessed over the passage of Prop 8 seems to be especially focused on black people. i take offense to that because it took 5+ million people of all races to pass it. someone in this thread said he would vote against affirmative action if he had the chance...i take offense to that line of thinking too.

i didn't mean to insult, but i am tired of being insulted. thanks for your comments...i appreciate it.

[Psyop Samurai]

87. You're alright with me, sister...

...I was just airing a little laundry. ;)

Thank you for hanging in there. I see that you & yardwork & bluedawg have already had the discussion we needed. I concur with all three of you. Take care.

:hug:

[noiretextatique]

89. sometimes we have to get past the anger

to get to the meat of the discussion. and i really do appreciate your perspective :hi:

[Psyop Samurai]

42. What is NOT a false issue is fortifying the "It's a White thing" perception...

...and false dichotomy, which is rooted in homophobia itself.

Homophobia hiding behind a 50 yard perimeter of cultural identity is not a big seller this week, notwithstanding the gratifying response from her AA readership, whose prejudices she stoked up. And let's not pretend that she just invented this view, or that it is somehow unique, or that it has had no impact up until now. No, she capitalized on it. These are real issues.

Her personal priorities? I would not presume to judge. Yet she trumpeted them in such a way as to sow division to the detriment of ALL GLBT. That is not an attack on you or the black community, or the imposition of false expectation.

How is her selfless support of her community helpful to GLBT people of color, some of whom may have fled that community to live openly, and all of whom remain invisible because it's a "white" thing that's "not about us"?

White racism is a plague that is never ending. I will be happy to discuss it, but not as a smokescreen for homophobia, which was the topic at hand. Homophobia anywhere affects all of us, regardless of race. Black vs gay = false dichotomy. Black IS gay. Yet somehow "gay" always ends up being those privileged whites in the Castro.

[noiretextatique]

57. how did the white gay community support affrimative action?

as a black lesbian, i am certainly living proof that it's not a "white thing." yet, i don't necessarily feel solidarity with "the gay community" on every issue of importance to me. nor i do feel support from "the gay community" on every issue of importance to me. i am realistic enough not to expect that. i live in a black, gay world by choice.

i don't think it's realistic to expect every black person to support gay marriage, as some seem to expect. i understand the outrage, but i also think it's based on an unrealistic expectation. i haven't seen this outrage directed at the other 5 million people who voted for Prop 8...and i call bullshit. just as there are racist gay people, there are homophobic black people.

it's not realistic or sane to argue that black people should not be homophobic when there are some homophobic black people. people don't evolve simply because they should or even because of their own experience with discrimination, as some people think they should.

having said that, i don't excuse them...they are idiots, and i can even understand why some people have unrealistic expectations of them. however, the fact is: black homophobes do exist. they did not cause Prop 8's passage and they will not stop the supreme court's ruling against Prop 8.

[yardwork]

71. There are gender issues within the gay community, too.

Some gay people are sexist. Some gay people are biased against bisexuals or transgendered people. No large group of people is immune from having members who are imperfect. We're all imperfect, if it comes to that.

However, while it may not be realistic to expect every "X" person to support gay marriage, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect EVERY person in the world, no matter who they are, to support gay marriage. It's reasonable to expect and ask and even demand that all people respect human rights. It may be unrealistic to expect everyone to agree, but it's not unreasonable to have the goal as an expectation.

[noiretextatique]

75. i agree mostly

but, there are still people who do not support civil rights for african-americans...to this very day. i think it's even worse with LGBT people because of religious beliefs.

what we need, and hopefully will get evenutally, is a definitive court decision that forces the majority to accept that they cannot determine which rights we get to have. they will still be free to be racist, homophobic, fascist assholes all they like.

that's what it took to end segregation...a court that protected the rights of the minority from a hostile majority. i have faith the california court will rule in our favor, but i am not so sure about florida and arizona.

and eventually, hopefully, hearts and minds will change and your goal will be a reality.

[yardwork]

77. You make a good point about the difference between the law and people's opinions.

I get you. I don't care if people dislike gay people as long as I have equal rights. I mean, I care, but there's not much I can do about it and it doesn't matter very much. What does matter is the law.

As you say, there are still idiots who don't agree that African Americans deserve civil rights. Only 10% of white people in Alabama voted for Obama for president, a smaller amount than the percent of white people who voted for Kerry in 2004 (19%). So there's a pretty clear sign of racism, imo.

Fortunately, we have federal laws in this country that mean that racists don't get to do anything they want anymore. They still make life as miserable as possible for people of color, but the federal laws limit the damage caused by their backward opinions. (Not that I'm suggesting that people of color don't still face all kinds of discrimination, legal and otherwise. I know that.)

[noiretextatique]

78. we need federal protection

i take real issue with those who get upset about comparing the civil rights struggle to the LGBT struggle. it may not be the same stuggle, but clearly it is very similar. it's time for the court to evolve and do the right thing, because we cannot rely on the majority to do it.

i have to get back to work...nice chatting with you :hi:

[yardwork]

82. Have a good day and thank you for your posts!

[yardwork]

47. Of course. No question about all your points - I don't think anybody disagrees here.

It's as unfair, unproductive, and patently ridiculous to say "all black people in California are homophobic" as it is to say "all white gay people on DU are racist."

Getting back to the op-ed piece, the author has a right to her opinion. I just pointed out, upthread, that I don't agree with her presentation of this issue as a set of opposing choices. It didn't take voters any money to vote "No on Proposition 8." It was just as easy to vote "No" as it was to vote "Yes." Voting against bigotry doesn't take any money from "more important causes" or ask anyone to ignore those other causes. So when she says it wasn't a priority in the black community because it's not as important an issue as others, well, that argument just doesn't hold up. The people pushing and supporting Proposition 8 went out of their way to make an issue out of something that was not an issue before. They're the ones who deserve criticism, not the folks whose rights were lost.

I'm an Anglo lesbian. I spend most of my time, money, and energy fighting for equal access to health care and contributing to human rights causes that help all people, like the Southern Poverty Law Center. My focus is not primarily on gay rights.

With all the problems in the world, why should gay people have to spend extra time and money to defend rights in states where we'd already won rights? Whose idea was it to take marriage away from 18,000 people who were already married, and make it impossible for any more gay people to get married, after it had been legal for six months? Now, that's a waste of time and money on a lousy cause, one that we all should be able to agree about.

[noiretextatique]

61. i agree with you...the author is an idiot. so why does she get some much ink here?

i don't agree with her opposing choices either...no sane person would. i guess i am just really tired of seeing all the "black people are homophobic" and "black people are attacking white gays" threads here. it puts me in a rather unenviable position.

i appreciate your comments and have much respect for you, yardwork. thanks :hug:

[bluedawg12]

65. She get's coverage because of what she said

not and because she is a gay.

I think any gay person who came out in a newspaper against justice would get lot's of attention but her comments were specifically the point for many.

Now how do we move on?

Is there any work to be done in the African American community regarding homophobia?

If so, how do we actually go about doing it?

[noiretextatique]

72. 5.2 million people voted yes on 8

there are an awful lot of people who need work regarding homophobia, not just african americans. one of the demographics that affected the passage of 8 was age....older people tended to support it moreso than younger people.

the author was was published to continue to add fuel to a fire some people seem intent on allowing to burn. i don't think the author said she did not vote against Prop 8; what she said was she didn't feel the need to encourage other black people to vote No. frankly...i don't understand the anger. she doesn't speak for anyone except herself, just as the asshole who said he wouldn't vote for affirmative action because of Prop 8. speaks for himself.

honestly, i hope the supreme court ruling will invalidate Prop 8 with a definitive ruling, like the ruling in may that ended the gay marriage ban. i honestly think it will take the courts to end the discrimination. hearts and minds will change eventually, but not soon enough. eventually, scotus will have to resolve the issue, but hopefully not until obama appoints some new justices.

there is some intragroup work that needs to be done. for example, a DUer pledged to talk to one black person a week about this issue. one of the problems with homophobia in the AA community is religious conservatism...i am not sure how to tackle that problem, to be honest. i will invite more people to my church, which has a mostly black congregation, and is totally welcoming to gay people.

i think my own family would have voted for Prop 8 if not for me. they support gay rights now, but probably wouldn't if i hadn't come out, so visibility is important too. lastly, i think we need to start looking at the big picture, e.g., the use of this issue by the right, and stop fighting with each other.

[bluedawg12]

74. This is a good point

"...there is some intragroup work that needs to be done. for example, a DUer pledged to talk to one black person a week about this issue. one of the problems with homophobia in the AA community is religious conservatism ...i am not sure how to tackle that problem, to be honest. i will invite more people to my church, which has a mostly black congregation, and is totally welcoming to gay people."

That's what I think also, that it is based on religious ideas/teachings.

I'm certainly willing to do what I can, I hope GLBTQ leaders continue to do just that, as well, reach and pray that some support comes from AA leaders as well, as the need is to have dialogue with those that have the power of the pulpit.

[yardwork]

70. It's been a very difficult ten days here. Last week there were some hurtful threads and posts

claiming that "the gay community" was being racist. Then this op-ed came out and a few posters grabbed it to "prove" that "the black community" was angry with "the gay community" for good reasons.

Obviously, these were unfair broad brush characterizations but I was very upset by the accusations. I was in tears last Friday as a result of having been called "racist" for about 48 hours all over DU. However, I want to point out that those few posters who were making these accusations almost all self-identify here as white and straight. I certainly did not feel that "black people" were attacking me here or anywhere. In fact, most of the attackers were probably not intending to attack anyone - they were just a bit misguided and heavy handed in their approach.

I share your feelings that this is all very divisive and probably originally started by people and institutions who want to stir up trouble between minority groups.

I'm sad that you have felt caught in the middle of a fight that shouldn't even exist. We are all human beings. Most people have some kind of minority status. All human rights are important.

Hugs to you. :pals:

[Creideiki]

55. Are you a black lesbian Mormon?

Because a lot of the protests have been targeted specifically toward the LDS church and businesses that supported Prop 8.

And if you really want to destroy our own, then maybe I, as a gay white guy should have voted for the amendment in Colorado that would have outlawed affirmative action. Let me know, and next time I'll be sure to cast my vote on that issue in proxy for you.

[noiretextatique]

62. showing your true colors?

if you feel you need to be true to yourself on affirmative action, by all means do so. it must have been the white part of me that voted against Prop 8 :eyes:

[Creideiki]

73. Then should this break the Democratic coalition?

We just had the greatest victory in my lifetime. And now people from within the coalition are pointing fingers and suggesting that others aren't necessary?

How about if we actually try for something progressive? Maybe a more perfect union.

[noiretextatique]

76. is that your way of apologizing?

if so, apology accepted :7

[Creideiki]

81. Then I'll accept yours too

[noiretextatique]

83. alrighty then

we're cool :7

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[bluedawg12]

59. We are all being cynically played by the rw and the SBC

just heard Dr.Land of the SBC shilling for the repug party and how to unite "ethnic" people to be more "inclusive" in the new repug party: by playing the cultural wars - family values and pro-life are still here and it is their only wedge issue now and they are playing as future strategy.

[noiretextatique]

64. THANK YOU

you said it far better than i did. :loveya:

[bluedawg12]

66. noiretblu -- LOL! back at you!

I really appreciate you being here and hanging in there with us.

The way I see it is, the repugs know they can't split the top of the ticket in 2012 with these so called- cultural wars - but they will use this for every other down ticket spot.


We cannot let them them do this. That is really all it comes down to. We stand united.

peace-

awww ...shucks...

[noiretextatique]

68. absolutely...we have to stand united

we have lost much ground because too many have been duped by the rw's cultural wars. it stops here.
peace, and thanks. i am not going anywhere :hi:

[bluedawg12]

79. This is the "Reverse of Nixon's Southern Strategy"

I wrote about this in another thread here, in tryng to understand the rw strategy.It is basically a reverse of Nixons Southern strategy pitting white dedocrats against AA democrats and they got an exodus from the Dem party and eventually iinto the repug party.

.........

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=91644&mesg_id=91681

The development of a religious identity movement, that bridges race, ethnicity and religious tradition, the so called fundy coalition of "The People of the Book."

Members of this coalition, it seems to me, then become the foot soldiers in their cultural wars. That's why we see an amalgamation of Catholics and Mormons and a broad coalition of various races and ethnic groups united in these so called, fight for "values."


Nixon played the identity politics card:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

Although the phrase "Southern strategy" is often attributed to Richard Nixon strategist Kevin Phillips, he did not originate it,<1> but merely popularized it.<2> In an interview included in a 1970 New York Times article, he touched on its essence:

From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that... but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats.<3>
While Phillips was concerned with polarizing ethnic voting in general, and not just with winning the white South, this was by far the biggest prize yielded by his approach. Its success began at the presidential level, gradually trickling down to statewide offices, the Senate and House, as legacy segregationist Democrats retired or switched to the GOP.

When asked about the southern strategy that used race as an issue to build GOP dominance in the once Democratic South, Mehlman replied, "Republican candidates often have prospered by ignoring black voters and even by exploiting racial tensions," and, "y the '70s and into the '80s and '90s, the Democratic Party solidified its gains in the African-American community, and we Republicans did not effectively reach out. Some Republicans gave up on winning the African-American vote, looking the other way or trying to benefit politically from racial polarization I am here today as the Republican chairman to tell you we were wrong."
.........

So the religious right, switched the southern strategy from race, to values and cultural wars.

[jonnyblitz]

92. good. I am glad you are not going anywhere.

we will get through this. sometimes our life experiences and perceptions clash but, when the dust settles, hopefully we are all on the same page. :hug: :hi:

your participation in this thread was helpful for me.

[noiretextatique]

93. of course

:hi: we are on the same page. sometimes we just need to has things out a bit :hug:
here's something of interest:

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/electionstrikeforce/

[jonnyblitz]

96. good site! i glanced over it quickly and bookmarked it for later.

I am in the middle of a PBS Frontline Documentary on the Mormons that is streaming video on their website. I will get with you later on!:D

[Jamastiene]

94. The bottom line is

either we (meaning all minorities) stand up to these RW attempts to divide us or we fall. If they are successful at dividing us, we are in a huge heap of trouble. We need to stand together, or we won't be able to stand at all.

Once they are finished taking one minority group's rights away, they are coming for the next minority group.

The Right Wing is trying to divide us. Please don't fall for it.

Solidarity.

[bluedawg12]

95. We are right on time - check this out - unity!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=389&topic_id=4463885&mesg_id=4463885

NAACP and Civil Rights Groups Petition California Supreme Court to stop the enactment of Prop 8