Matthew - Chapter 25

[Xipe Totec]

31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,

32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

- Matthew 25:31-40.


Thou art my brothers and sisters, and I am your keeper.

[HeresyLives]

1. Be a sheep, and get saved?

Not much of an inspiring message.

On edit:
I should add that I get your message, but somehow this quote isn't very catchy. ;)

[Xipe Totec]

2. Be an asshole and be damned

not so inspiring either.

[HeresyLives]

3. No, I suppose not.

How about something along the lines of all men are brothers, or love thy neighbour or whatever?

[Xipe Totec]

5. That is exactly what is says

The lamb is a symbol of kindness and a pureness of heart, not a symbol of passivity.

The goat is a symbol of egoism, greed, and selfishness.

[HeresyLives]

16. Sorry, I like goats.

They've gotten a bad rap in history because of biblical nonsense like this.

Nice animals, goats. Nothing like their PR suggests.

[Xipe Totec]

25. I like them too

roasted on a spit. They're delicious!

[HeresyLives]

31. Yes, and also very nice

in other ways. Intelligent as dogs for example. Bon appetit.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. Not to put too fine a point on it...

but do you know much about the actual herding of actual sheep? That is what is being drawn on in the story. Real sheep, as told to actual shepherds...the point of the passage is that the Divine is present in the world in the form of the most dispised and in need. The rest of the passage covers the opposite take, those who think they are members in good standing of the tribe, or flock, who are in fact have spent a lifetime refusing food and shelter and basic human rights to Christ incarnate as the needy.
It is profound beyond compare.

[HeresyLives]

18. It's very poor animal husbandry.

And a load of manure as well.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Which part of the meaning do you take issue with

or is it merely the source that irks you?
What parts of the story do you take for being about animal husbandry? Do you understand that when Romeo says ' Juliet is the sun' he does not mean that literally either, don't you?

[HeresyLives]

If you're going to quote the Bible

to fundies, you should pick better passages. Telling them their side are all goats, and your side is all sheep, is not the best way to start a conversation.

[Maraya1969]

42. Sometimes people like to use the Christian Bible as a source of quotes

Why does that offend you?

[really annoyed]

44. Because this isn't Bible study

This is the GLBT forum. There is a separate forum for this kind of stuff.

[Xipe Totec]

62. Did you know that you can ignore entire threads?

There's a little button you can click and the entire thread dissapears from view.

But that isn't enough for you is it?

You're offended by the topic, and yet here you are...

Why is that?

[Ilsa]

4. The message is to extend kindness to one another when your brother is in need.

Your reward is a special place in Heaven, or kindness being offered to you when you are in need because of the religious beliefs of others. And the result is a world full of kindness.

That is what I have always gotten from it.

[Xipe Totec]

10. As have I

It always reminds me of the Masonic lesson of the level:

The Level demonstrates that we are descended from the same stock, partake of the same nature, and share the same hope; and though distinctions among men are necessary to preserve subordination, yet no eminence of station should make us forget that we are brethren; for he who is placed on the lowest spoke of fortune's wheel, may be entitled to our regard; because a time will come, and the wisest know not how soon, when all distinction, but that of goodness, shall cease; and Death, the grand leveler of human greatness, reduce us to the same state.



Every human being belongs to some minority by race, creed, color, or act of creation.






Someday, It may be my turn to be the lowest spoke on fortune's wheel.

I hope that my brethren will be there, then, to comfort and support me.

[HeresyLives]

20. Masons STUDY this stuff?

:eyes:

[Xipe Totec]

24. Your point? n/t

[HeresyLives]

33. I can't imagine grown adults

doing that. It strikes me as hilarious. Sorry.

[Xipe Totec]

34. That says more about the narrowness of your mind than anything else

And whether you find it hilarious or not, has ceased to interest me.

Consider this my last reply to any of your posts.

:hi:

[HeresyLives]

35. No, but it says a lot about them

that they'd need to 'study' something in plain English, and pretty obvious.

[xchrom]

6. recommend

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FiveGoodMen]

9. Speaking as an extreme and 'Angry Atheist' -- I fully support this OP.

If Christians paid attention to this part of their own book, we would all be doing much better.

Pointing out to one and all what words of their founder they've been ignoring is a good idea in my opinion.

Indeed, I would go on to quote the rest of it:

25:41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;

25:42 for I was hungry, and you didn't give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink;

25:43 I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'

25:44 "Then they will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?'

25:45 "Then he will answer them, saying, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.'

25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

[Xipe Totec]

15. And your point, angry atheist?

I see no difference in the message by adding those passages.

The point remains the same.

Hatred toward those who do not hold your beliefs?

Do you see the irony in your reply?

[really annoyed]

45. Anger isn't hatred

And you haven't been exactly polite to anybody who doesn't agree with you here.

[Xipe Totec]

61. I respond in the tone in which I am addressed

I didn't post to start a religious discussion, but to show support for Gay Rights.

[FiveGoodMen]

68. The point is that THEIR OWN BOOK condemns them for doing what they're doing.

Given that state of affairs, there is absolutely no arguing that they are in the right.

And here I was supporting you.

Trust me, that won't happen again.

[Xipe Totec]

70. That is my point as well

I regret losing your support.

[TechBear_Seattle]

72. The extended quote adds quite a bit

The first part says, "Be kind and caring, and Heaven will be yours." The second part says, "Be unkind and uncaring, and Hell will be yours." These are very distinct messages that must be taken together, just as Jesus spoke them. Or is the second part somehow less the Word of God because you find the words uncomfortable?

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jkshaw]

13. Calling a fellow DU member a jerk?

Nice debating skills you have there az.

[jonnyblitz]

17. sorry but this is GLBT forum, NOT FUCKING bible study

I find this CRAP OFFENSIVE ! :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Xipe Totec]

23. I didn't know all gays were atheists

I find your replies unhelpful.

What you are saying is that people of faith should abhor gays.

Did I get that right, or am I misunderstanding your message?

[jonnyblitz]

26. this isn't the place for this SHIT.

that is all. I can't believe i have to explain this.

[Xipe Totec]

27. Actually, you do have to explain it

You posted on my OP.

Please explain why people of faith should not stand up for Gay Rights.

[Eryemil]

29. The thought that queer folks might believe in a deity does not bother me much at all

What I do not forgive are the queers that actively followed religious institutions that work to undermine their very humanity.

That means pretty much every organized religion out there. Specially in the US only certain tiny congregations are anything near welcoming to queers and I salute them!

Cheers to the Quakers and Unitarians.

[Xipe Totec]

30. My brother just joined the Unitarian Church

for that very reason.

I love him, and I love the church that welcomed him.

[kwassa]

40. Most of the Episcopal Church welcomes them, too.

First gay bishop in 2003. The church as a whole is determined to include gays on ever level, and a small minority is fighting them tooth and nail.

There are many denominations and churches open and affirming to gays.

[davidinalameda]

81. this gay isn't an atheist

and neither is my lesbian minister

and neither is my gay youth minister, etc

[Bluenorthwest]

21. The op is labeled as what it is

On what grounds do you claim the right to ba angry over anyone posting anything? What is your standing? You use the word 'jerk' which I think is perfectly suited to a person who could imagine that the internet postings of others should somehow reflect his personal 'wants'. Inflated sense of self importance, or raving ego syndrome, common in those who are so busy claiming superior understanding that they become incapable of learning....
Have a nice hypocrisy! (That is usually reserved for the religionists, but you are kin to them)

[ShenandoahAspen]

8. I love this passage from the Bible.

I just wish more Christians would follow it -- but I guess denying the right to marry to two consenting adults who love each other is more important to them than feeding the hungry or caring for the sick. Jesus weeps.

[Xipe Totec]

19. I know

If we are to make Christians reflect on their actions, we must speak to them in their language; show them that Christ loves all people, and that we are all brethren.

[MNBrewer]

37. Most "Christians" aren't Christians

They're Biboloters, at best.

[Xipe Totec]

38. I can't say I disagree

The whole point of my post was to make the case that people of faith should also support Gay Rights.

It may have been misunderstood as proselytizing, but it isn't.

My point is this:


If you believe in God, and you support Gay Rights, Bless you!

If you do not believe in God, and you support Gay rights, fantastic!

If you believe in God, and you don't support Gay Rights, be damned!

If you do not believe in God, and you don't support Gay rights, fuck you!

[Eryemil]

41. That's convenient. The only 'real Christians' are the ones that agree with you

A tiny minority, which goes without saying.

[really annoyed]

46. Which is the problem with religion

Not one person on this Earth can form a coherent answer to what EXACTLY their religion stands for, which is why USING religion to bolster gay rights is terribly silly - especially when the majority of world religions are strictly against homosexuality.

[MNBrewer]

47. I'm not a christian

But I grew up as one. I know what Jesus is supposed to have preached. Most people who claim to be christian don't actually follow the teachings of Jesus. Mostly they follow the exact opposite. Just look around. And, by the way, Jesus was WAY more bothered by hypocrisy that by gay sex, judging by how often he mentioned either. "Christians" should be WAY more wary of being a hypocrite than of being gay.

Matthew 23:13-15

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

[Eryemil]

49. That doesn't mean anything to me, I am an atheist

What DOES matter to me is the millions of self-identified Christians that hate my guts. Whether they are real or not is for the religious to kill each other over.

What matters is that they are a huge, relentless, force that while claiming to have the one path to god hate queers enough to unite against us in the name of baby Jesus.

[MNBrewer]

50. What doesn't mean anything to you? Hypocrisy?

I'm an atheist, too, by the way.

[Eryemil]

51. Scripture. And out of EVERYTHING I said this is what you decided to comment on?

Sigh

[MNBrewer]

52. I just LOVE that response.

W O W. Sorry I didn't respond to all the incredibly sage comments you made elsewhere in this thread. No disrespect intended. :sarcasm:

[Eryemil]

53. It was a reply specifically to your earlier post yet you chose not to address it at all...

...and ask about an irrelevant bit of the title?

[MNBrewer]

66. Sorry, but i'm REALLY not following you.

What is your point?

MY point was that most people who call themselves christians aren't, as they don't really follow the teachings of Jesus. Rather, they're hypocrites, who literally worship the bible.

By their fruits are they known.

[Eryemil]

76. And I am saying that what they might or might not be

is irrelevant and for the priests to decide. They believe they are Christians and call themselves Christian and that's enough.

As I've said, it's convenient that only the small majority that agree with you are 'real Christians'. Basically the reason we have so many Christian sects are the moment. They all claim to have the one path to heaven while all others are liars.

[MNBrewer]

77. I believe there isn't any path to heaven

and if they believe themselves to be Napoleon Bonaparte, and CALL themselves Napoleon Bonaparte that's enough. They're Napoleon Bonaparte?

[Eryemil]

78. Nice logic there bub

[MNBrewer]

79. I notice that you didn't refute it

maybe you can't. You can just ridicule.

Bub.

[Eryemil]

80. Well enough

"...and if they believe themselves to be Napoleon Bonaparte, and CALL themselves Napoleon Bonaparte that's enough. They're Napoleon Bonaparte?"

First of all, 'Christianity' is a state of mind. Your argument makes no sense AT ALL since you're using a specific historical figure as if both factors were comparable.

If I tell you that I am happy can you prove that I am not?

You can quote scripture all you like to prove your point but you forget the other side can do the same. You're basically picking the side the resonates with YOUR beliefs and calling it the right one simply because you think that this is the way it should be.

[MNBrewer]

82. First of all, 'Christianity' is a state of mind.

Well.... I'm not so sure about that.

[Eryemil]

14. Sheep are some of the stupidest creatures I've ever encountered

There's no excuse for a mammal to be that dumb.

[HeresyLives]

22. Tossup between sheep and

chickens, really.

Or rocks.

[alittlelark]

43. Toss-up between sheep and freeps.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Xipe Totec]

36. You are wise, Grovelbot! N/T

[kenny blankenship]

39. well I appreciated it anyway in the spirit in which it was offered

Others might want to consider that the criterion used in separating the "sheep" from the "goats" is not something anatomical but behavioral, specifically the liberality of their hearts.

I have another passage that might interest posters to this forum:

John 19 (KJV)

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The very least that might be said of this passage is that it shows that family can come in all kinds of shapes.

After all, on what occasion does a child tell the parent that the parent is now to be the parent of another child?

[Xipe Totec]

56. Beautiful, thank you

this is an even more appropriate metaphor than the one I chose.

again, thanks!

[RedLetterRev]

48. Might I also offer this one:

Matthew 22:34-40 (King James Version)

³⁴But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

³⁵Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

³⁶Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

³⁷Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

³⁸This is the first and great commandment.

³⁹And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

⁴⁰On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Emphasis mine. Jesus only ever quoted two commandments and He said that the second was just as important as the first. My interpretation is that if one follows either, the other should flow naturally as they are interdependent. Kinda like knowing a tree by its fruit and all. I've run with this passage many, many a time.

I'm not a parishional minister, although I do have permission to call a congregation and form a church. Ain't my bag. I shed religion a long time ago in favor of faith and I personally find any positive and loving expression of faith beautiful and valid. That's just me. I've celebrated all sorts of faiths in weddings and same-sex unions (I'm not allowed to marry us in NC :(), prayed the prayers with them, and loved the love. I don't find any threat at all praying in English or Hindi or Tibetan or anything else. Or not praying at all, if that's what a couple wants.

Love is rare enough and needs to be celebrated for its own suchness wherever it's found.

Insofar as the fundies go, I have only one observation: if their "faith" is so weak as to be threatened by anything outside of themselves, perhaps they need to look inside themselves. One can't have peace without until there is peace within.

FWIW. That's just this one man's outlook, but it lets me walk the world in relative peace.

[Jamastiene]

54. Thank you. It is really nice to hear Bible verses used to support

rather than to deny our humanity. So often, we hear Bible verses used as weapons to attack us. It is a refreshing change to hear them being used in a loving supportive way.

Thank you for that. :hug:

[jonnyblitz]

58. it's ALL a load of CRAP!

i don't come to this forum to read this SHIT. xianity is the religion they use to keep us DOWN. I don't care about the "random" beautiful versus. :eyes: FUCK THIS. :puke:

[Xipe Totec]

60. Don't make friends much, do you?

you should practice.

[bluedawg12]

63. I have to agree with jonnyblitz

>>The whole point of my post was to make the case that people of faith should also support Gay Rights.<<
..........

You haven’t made that case.

The case is made by showing that people should support human rights as a matter of justice.

You’ve pulled out random verses and so will religious opponents.

The whole point is to keep religion out of politics, as we have seen religious groups behave as lobbyists and PAC’s.

.........

>>It may have been misunderstood as proselytizing, but it isn't.

My point is this:

If you believe in God, and you support Gay Rights, Bless you!

If you do not believe in God, and you support Gay rights, fantastic!

If you believe in God, and you don't support Gay Rights, be damned!

If you do not believe in God, and you don't support Gay rights, fuck you!<<
...........

Well, that certainly is your opinion, but it is not making the case. Nor is it a particularly good theological argument.

The case to be made is about the fair application of the law.

I have no problem with theological discussions, and there is a religion forum on DU, for looking at scripture, but I do have a problem as trying to pawn it off as a strategic response to the haters.

That is just the opposite of what we need to do.

Religious beliefs are a deeply ingrained and reinforced by customs and by weekly pep rallies ( services) so going up against people’s religiosity is playing on their turf.

[Xipe Totec]

59. That was my sole purpose

:hug:

[Toasterlad]

55. Thanks for the Intent, But I Think Quoting Some Books Written for Grown-Ups Would Be More Apropo

Darling parables about sheep and goats and sky palaces are more appropriate for the kids forum, wouldn't you agree?

Wait...does DU HAVE a kid's forum?

[Xipe Totec]

57. Your sarcasm is duly noted

although irony, it seems, is beyond your school grade.

[Toasterlad]

65. I'm All For Irony. Yay, Irony! I Just Think Using the Bible to Point Out That Christians Don't Act

christian is hokey. It has, in a word, been done.

Those who believe interpret it however they wish to prove their point. And those of us who don't think it's all nonsense. Therefore, it's a pointless endeavor.

[Xipe Totec]

71. And yet, here you are,

arguing that pointless point.

Why is that?

Do you realize that every time you reply, you reignite the tread?

If, as you say, the point has been made before and needs no rehashing, the preoper response would have been no response at all.

But your intent was to show how mature you are by pointing out how childish the post was.

Childish, ce n’est pas?

[Toasterlad]

73. Oh, I'M Sorry. I Thought You Could Read a Sentence and Divine Its Meaning.

How presumptuous of me.

I wasn't arguing that it's pointless to use the bible to point out how christians don't act like christians. That's a given. I was pointing out to you that your post was pointless. Understand the difference? One is an argument, the other is a public service.

And let me clear up another misconception: I wasn't saying that your post was childish. I was saying that the BIBLE is childish. Subtle difference, so I can see how you missed it. But, for the record, I never made any personal claims of maturity, and can't imagine doing so. To prove it, I'll be happy to continue this pointless dialogue for the next six days or so.

BTW, have you ever noticed how terribly defensive christians are? They can say anything they want, but when you call them on any detail, they get all pissy. You'd think they'd have read that part of the bible where Jeebus tells them to be happy when people piss all over their religion, cause then they're blessed or some shit. Hey, I just used the bible to show how christians don't act like christians! That is so cool!

Edited to further mock Christ.

[Xipe Totec]

74. Sarcasm versus irony

Here we go again.

Someday, you'll be mature enough to understand the difference.

(I hope)

[Toasterlad]

75. Yes, Teach Me, Daddy! You're So Christian-y and Wise!

How I wish I was mature and sophisticated like you, so I could understand the words of Jeebus and his dad, Sky Jockey! I would love to understand why in the first half of the book, Sky Jockey's all pissed-off and demanding sacrifices and turning people into salt and drowning the entire world's population and making bets with the devil about how miserable he can make the people who worship him, and then in the second half of the book, he comes to Earth as his son, and is all of a sudden saying that killing is wrong and that everybody should love everybody. Plus, if I were mature and sophisticated, I might understand how he does all those Seigfried & Roy tricks, like turning water into wine and turning a little bit of food into a lot of food!

Wait, what? Are you telling me that not everything in the bible really happened? That it's all al-a-gor-ical, whatever that means? But how do you know which parts are true and which parts aren't? Oh, I should stop asking questions now? Okay, whatever you say...you're the mature, sophisticated one.

[mondo joe]

64. I'll just say thank you for your support. NT

[Disorientedx3]

67. getting creeped out

This particular passage has sprung up in several unexpected places recently... my long haired teen aged wild boy brought it up outta NOWHERE the other day (he's had no formal religious education)... picked up a piece of trash blowing around at work and it was on there... and now in a GLBT forum... kinda twilight zone-ish...

[Xipe Totec]

69. It happens sometimes

Like when I found a one Bolivar coin the day that Hurricane Ike destroyed Bolivar Peninsula in Texas.

I like your handle, Disorientedx3, by the way. :hi: