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Andrew Sullivan: The Mormon War on Gay People

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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 07:39 PM
Original message
Andrew Sullivan: The Mormon War on Gay People
I've had my problems with Mr. Sullivan in the past. But he's always been first rate on same-sex marriage. And he sure has some important things to say here:

The Mormon War On Gay People
Dan Savage:

When political attacks are launched from churches, political responses will be delivered to churches. If goddamned McDonald's had organized and paid for Prop 8, we'd be marching on goddamned McDonald's.

I strongly support civility in this struggle. Religious services and practices should be scrupulously respected. But when a church, like the Mormon church, makes a concerted effort to enter the public square and strip a small minority of basic civil rights, it is simply preposterous for them then to argue that the Mormon church cannot be criticized and protested because they are a religion. I have never done anything - nor would I do anything - to impede or restrict the civil rights of Mormons. I respect their right to freedom of conscience and religion. In fact, it is one of my strongest convictions. But when they use their money and power to target my family, to break it up, to demean it and marginalize it, to strip me and my husband of our civil rights, then they have started a war. And I am not a pacifist.

I do not intend in any way to remove a single right from Mormons. I do intend to protest their imposition of their own religious dogma - that marriage is always between a man and a woman and it is eternal and will be replicated in heaven by the couple physically present - on civil rights protections vested in a civil constitution.

I should add that I dated a Mormon man for a few months a while back. What he told me about the LDS church's psychological warfare on their gay members, the brutality and viciousness and intolerance with which they attack and hound and police the gay children of Mormon families, would make anyone shudder.

They hounded my ex for having HIV and for being gay. They followed him secretly, outed him to his family and persecuted him for his illness. When he was diagnosed with HIV at Brigham Young, he had to run out of the college clinic to escape those who wanted to sequester and punish him. He died a few years ago. Most of his Mormon family didn't show up for his funeral. You want me to love these people? Let me say it's my Christian duty to try.

The Mormons are not unique in this persecution of their own gay folk. My own church has recently capitulated to bigotry in its own hiring practices, even as the Vatican is run by so many psychologically scarred gay men. But the Mormons are particularly vicious homophobes. Gay people are rendered invisible, their personhood erased in this church. The cruelty the Mormon church inflicts on its gay members is matched only by the Mormons' centuries-long demonization and hatred of black people. That African-Americans would seek common cause with a church that only recently still believed they were the product of Satan shows how profound homophobia can be. But this shared hatred can be exploited by the Hewitts and Romneys of this world. And what we have just witnessed is a trial run for much larger ambitions.

If we don't resist this now, we will not be able to resist it later.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/11/mcprop.html
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. wow , very well written!!!
So what happens when a cute missionary comes to the door? :shrug: :shrug:

should we kiss them? :rofl: :hi:
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. Homophobia permeates many religions and dogmas....

People from India can very homophobic, yet most are Hindu. The government of China tries to prohibit religion because it conflicts with Marxist dogma, unfortunately they also try to prohibit homosexuality and homophobia is rampant as a result.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. here's the irony in reading this thread : homosexuality is everywhere!
Edited on Mon Nov-17-08 08:31 PM by bluedawg12
India, China, USA, Iran, ME, US, all faiths -everywhere and yet, for the entire history of humanity it has been here and every f*cking generation renews the myth that it is wrong or immoral or a danger.

G_d people are a stupid f*cking species.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Andrew is right on the money!
The Mormons, Catholics and Evangelical want a Theocracy in this country and they want to destroy any individuality, any differences that exist - basically the very esscense of America.

It is now time to remove their tax exempt status.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Since these groups all love money and power
that would result in quite the sh*t storm. :rofl:
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Oh yes they would and I would enjoy every minute of it.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. Very well-written ...
I have to give some credit on this one.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thank you, Andrew! I really appreciate your words and the fight you help lead on this issue.
Edited on Mon Nov-17-08 08:51 PM by GodlessBiker
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Sully's dead on with this one
except he's slightly downplaying the role of his own church in the Prop 8 politiics and funding. Catholic hirearchy and the K of C played leading roles. Other than that bit of hedging, he's very much on the money.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
10. Sullivan gets it right now and then. He's still a loon, and his attacks on Human Rights
Campaign, IMO, are just some sort of sick envy fueled by taking too much testosterone.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. That's a very strong statement. I like it.
I do think that the Catholic Church and many fundamentalist non-denominational churches also deserve condemnation for their constant and ongoing treatment of gay people.

It's not just Proposition 8 and it's not just the Mormons.
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. Though I despise Sully, I have to admit this is a great writeup ...
:thumbsup:
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. I wonder what the Log Cabin Republicans' feelings are on this now...
I know they were officially against Prop 8 before the election. I searched now and can't find any statements from them since the election.

Good article from Sullivan. Thanks for posting.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. andrew is a log cabin repuke nt
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I wonder what their official position is on it.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. i BELIEVE -- marriage equality is their stand --
but i can't say for sure.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yes, it definitely is. I am wondering though what their response is to the Prop 8 passage.
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 09:16 PM by PelosiFan
They will probably dismiss it as (not being) a democrat/republican issue since obviously so many democrats voted for it.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. he is conservative
but he's not a kool-aid drinker like the Log Cabinettes

he endorsed Obama and Kerry in the last two elections


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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. I was curious, too, and went to the Log Cabin website.
Not one single word about Prop 8. Not..one...single...word...on the Log Cabin website...about this heinous vote. Shameful. Prop 8 affects gay and lesbian Republicans and their families. It's not limited to Democrats. Why are they being silent about this?
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. Whoops wrong thread
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 05:48 PM by LeftyMom
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. Best Article Yet On the Mormon Church and Prop 8
Finally, someone's throwing some mud. I'm sick of reading these oh-so-respectful pieces criticizing the church's stance, but bending over backwards not to critizice the church itself. Like the catholic church, like so many other organized religions, the mormon church is a reprehensibly bigoted and hateful institution. But even THIS article - pointing out their history of horrible racism and their abominable treatment of their own gay members - doesn't go quite far enough.

I do not share Mr. Sullivan's respect for the rights of mormons; they lost their right to my respect when they fucked with MY rights. I would quite happily strip away every single right the mormons have, starting with their right to crusade against minorities they don't like while enjoying tax-exempt status from the government that MY taxes go to support, and up to and including their rights to marry and breed. This world would be much, MUCH better off without mormons. They should all be herded into compounds in the deserts of Utah, chemicially castrated, and kept there until they all die off.

I have no doubt that some misguided, bleeding-heart religious type will alert on this post and have it deleted, but I needed to write it down. I am SO pissed off about this shit.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. Kudos to Mr. Sullivan
:thumbsup:
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