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Thinking about dropping a dollar in the Salvation Army bucket? Why?

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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:06 PM
Original message
Thinking about dropping a dollar in the Salvation Army bucket? Why?
I remember this bullshit from back when Bush was pushing his 'Faith-Based Initiatives' bullshit. I will never give another penny to the Salvation Army and I urge you to do the same.


Salvation Army Controversy is Just Tip of ‘Faith-Based Initiative’ Iceberg

Commentary by Michael Adams, Lambda Deputy Legal Director



The recent controversy over the Bush Administration’s alleged promise to help the Salvation Army discriminate against gay employees in return for support for the Administration’s drive to funnel tax dollars to churches and religious organizations vividly illustrates how dangerous the so-called “faith-based initiative” is to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. Until the Salvation Army story broke, discussion of this danger had been virtually non-existent outside of the LGBT community and press. In fact, transferring federally funded social services to churches and religious non-profits will seriously threaten the progress the LGBT community has made on important issues, unless proper safeguards are put in place. But before getting to that, it’s worth taking a moment to briefly outline what the so-called “faith-based initiative” is all about.

Religious organizations like Lutheran Social Services, United Jewish Communities, and Catholic Charities have received government funding for social services for many years. What makes the Bush Administration’s “faith-based initiative” different is that it seeks to change the rules to allow religious groups that receive government funding to discriminate and proselytize. Historically, religious groups have been required to abide by the same rules as every other government contractor - i.e., in return for public dollars they’ve agreed not to discriminate against their employees and not to use government money to preach.

In a radical shift in federal policy, the Bush Administration now wants to allow churches and religious groups to receive taxpayer dollars without the strings that historically have been attached. The Administration’s theory, unsupported by any hard evidence, is that religious groups do a better job than secular organizations or government at providing social services, and rules against discrimination and proselytizing need to be lifted to encourage religious groups to take over the job.

The LGBT community needs to be especially concerned about the Bush “faith-based initiative.” Our community has made the elimination of employment discrimination against LGBT people a top priority. The federal government and publicly funded positions account for a large share of this country’s labor market, and we have made much progress in winning workplace equality in this area. By contrast, every gay rights bill enacted thus far in this country has included a provision exempting religious groups from coverage. Therefore, organizations like the Salvation Army generally are not covered by these laws. So, if religious groups take over publicly funded positions and are not required to maintain a discrimination-free workplace in return for receiving taxpayer dollars, we will lose much ground in our fight for equal treatment on the job.

The “faith-based initiative” also poses a threat to our struggle to protect and empower LGBT youth. Last month the federal Centers for Disease Control announced that young African-American men who have sex with men, in some cities including Seattle, have an annual HIV infection rate of nearly 15 percent, and that one third of them are already infected with HIV. These numbers rival those found in sub-Saharan Africa. At the same time they were being announced, it became public that the federal Department of Health and Human Services was planning on funneling $4-million of HIV prevention money for minority communities exclusively to religious groups because “these groups have access to the young people we are trying to reach.” The program is being re-tooled because of political protest, but it is a warning sign of things to come. While churches might indeed be effective at reaching some young people, it seems highly unlikely that many of them can reach LGBT youth, given that many churches still cling to anti-gay beliefs, and even those that don’t are unlikely to be able or willing to provide the frank and open sex education that lgbt youth need to avoid HIV infection.

The LGBT community’s stake in the debate over religion and public dollars is powerfully illustrated by the controversy currently swirling around the Kentucky Baptist Homes for Children. KBHC is the largest provider of state-funded services to “at risk” youth in Kentucky, receiving about two-thirds of its budget from the State. Nonetheless, KBHC fired Alicia Pedreira, a youth counselor with an outstanding job record, because she is a lesbian. The agency has publicly announced an across-the-board ban on gay employees because the “homosexual lifestyle” is contrary to Baptist values. While KBHC claims that it does not discriminate against LGBT youth, it also has made public statements supporting reparative therapy and announcing its belief that anybody can be “converted” to heterosexuality with prayer and counseling. The agency’s HIV education program, to the extent it exists at all, provides no information to lgbt youth on safer sex practices. Lambda has joined an ACLU lawsuit challenging public funding of KBHC.

The Bush Administration’s “faith-based initiative,” as presently conceived, is an open invitation to organizations like KBHC to take over government-funded social services, including HIV prevention. It also presents an opportunity for organizations like the Salvation Army to take taxpayer dollars while engaging in employment discrimination against LGBT people. A recent so-called “compromise” by Congressional Republicans on the employment issue in reality is just a smokescreen that will do nothing to prevent religious groups that receive taxpayer dollars from discriminating. Nor can we find much comfort in the tactical retreat of the Bush Administration in the Salvation Army controversy, which came only after initial statements sympathetic to the Army’s anti-gay agenda by Vice President Cheney and other Administration officials.

A forceful response from the LGBT community is critical. Our community must fight to ensure that the concerns of LGBT people are not ignored in the misguided rush to turn over government services to churches and religious organizations. To be fair to all Americans, including LGBT people, tax dollars must go only to organizations that pledge to treat all employees fairly and to provide all clients with appropriate services, nor religious moralizing. Public Funding of Religious Groups 07/11/2001 http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/documents/record?record=872

http://www.cephasministry.com/church_and_state_salvation_army_tip_of_the_iceberg.html
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. You can donate Queer Dollars. See the link provided.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks David.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
72. Happy to help. We drop them in their buckets every year.
:hi:
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Perfect!
At least I can drop in a message of why I am not donating instead of just ignoring them now.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
71. Print them up and drop them off in their buckets.
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 12:30 AM by David Zephyr
We still do it every year. Makes the yuletide gay.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is a very hard one, as I understand and appreciate your POV
But, using Obama's analogy about the Federal Budget, boycotting Salvation Army at this time, especially, is a bit like taking a chainsaw to the issues.

There are so many in my community that I see dependent on SA and other food banks and cheritable organizations. Every damned day under this worsening economy, the line for shelter and food that I pass coming to and from work each day lengthens dramatically. SA is one of the few groups that are trying to fill that increased need and void. I've given to those bell ringers since I was a small child. My parents did so every time they came upon one, even during those years when my family were likewise going to have a pretty bleak Holiday Season financially. But, it isn't just habit that makes what you are asking so difficult. How do I face the people that receive no help as a result?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. If SA is the only such service in your community you might have a point. I know in
my city there are dozens of non profits - food banks, community health centers, preschools for low income families, job training programs, etc.

SA isn't the only way to support people in need. At least not in a lot of the country.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. In terms of large scale aid, that is all too often the case...
Again, my concern with the very blunt approach to the problem...
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Your donation is probably not effecting large scale aid.
If you want to donate to SA, by all means do. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't.

But I know my dollar will do as much or maybe more with another organization.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. No, you misunderstand... I certainly am not a large donor--LOL
(I wish I had the resources)... But as you say, SA may be the lead player (or the only player) in some cities and communities. I simply meant to add that even with some smaller players, SA's scope may make them the only comprehensive player.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
73. The Salvation Army kicked ass in Mississippi after Katrina.
They entered the worst hit, poorest neighborhoods very early, long before the Red Cross or FEMA were easily accessible in those areas. I'd say they fed thousands of people--and later, fed armies of volunteers that came to rebuild. All without asking for a penny and without forcing the eaters to listen to evangelism. I don't agree with 95% of their theology, but at least they seem to have gotten Jesus' meme about serving the poor and hungry. So I will continue to put dollars in their kettles.

But, you know, boycott who you wish. I won't donate to the Red Cross anymore because of how incompetently they ran their operation in MS after the storm, and how racist their response was overall (setting up at inaccessible locations for the people worst hit to get to). No none profit is perfect. :(
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. If we continue to allow bigotry to continue without challenge then we all lose.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Again, I respect your POV and am not trying to be facetious...
but your comment is not easy to tell a family facing hunger, with children, and without a place to stay the night. :shrug:
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. would you tolerate an organization that discriminates against women or blacks?
you wouldn't so why do you tolerate an organization that discriminates against gays?
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. I wish it were that simple....
It is not. I support your goals and try very hard to honor boycotts whenever I can.
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TommyO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
76. It is that simple.
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bsiebs Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Become your own charity...dont help bigots
Think about this... if a group of people were working to take your rights from you, and helping to spread lies to the rest of the public to demonize you... but then every holiday collected money to help those in need, would you be willing to contribute? If the SA were working to take rights away from Blacks? Women? I suggest you find charities that truely care about humanity and not some twisted concept of "goodness" that pits one against another. For that matter, go out and find someone in need and help them directly with a meal or cash... we can all make a difference if we try.

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thrift_store_angel Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Then take your money and give it directly to the family.
They will get more of it that way anyway. In this day and age there is no excuse to give money to an organization like the SA, if you want to help a family in need, all you have to do is get in your car, drive down the street and find one.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. The reasons why these organizations are so important
is that they offer continuous, comprehensive services. I can not be there every day with a donation and nor can anyone else.... Therein lies the problem.
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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. There are organizations in Colorado that are there every day that don't discriminate
You could always ask some of the churches that don't discriminate what they support.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Yes... and I do.
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thrift_store_angel Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
52. Do you give that much that it helps everyday?
Or do you give everyday? I doubt that the answer is yes to either. Your personal donation helps once, you could do the same thing by helping out an individual family once.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. If I ran a charity to feed the poor I would never in a million years use those donations to fund
the No on 8 campaign. So why is the reverse OK? Because religious bigotry is acceptable.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Are you saying that SA donated funds to the No on 8 campaign??
Please post documentation. This is an important new wrinkle.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. No, but they have donated money in the past to anti-gay campaigns per DU threads.
Search for "Salvation Army" on DU and you'll get your documentation. Sorry, but its thanksgiving and I don't have time to "prove" what is accessible through the DU search engine.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. You seemed to be making that connection in your post...
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 04:52 PM by hlthe2b
I find that misleading, but enjoy the day. I will take the time to research on my own at a later time.
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TommyO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
75. There are plenty of other worthy organizations to donate to
that don't advocate for discrimination against gay people.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
77. There are so many other organizations that do not discriminate that can use our dollars.
Why would we CHOOSE an organization like Salvation Army? They get plenty of support from people who don't care that they discriminate against us. I won't give them a penny.
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. i never give to the SA. i don't
trust them.
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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. I sent back their mail solicitation
with the explanation that I could not support them until they ceased their discriminatory practices against GLBT people.

There are many worthy organizations that do not discriminate and my money goes to them.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. Rainbow Santas?
Maybe a better solution is to create an organization that sends Santas out to the same locations the Salvation Army goes to, and collect money for some other national group that can do the same work. The SA is one of the first to show up in national emergencies too. We have to have an organization as effective as that one ready to take its place. Come up STRONG from the left. The gay community is very organized, please take the lead! Two Party System, Democrats and Green (or left of Democrat). Let's make it happen!
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
16. I will support those who help the poor over those who don't give a damn or pay lip service
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. There are many who help the poor. So many that one can generally find a number
to support who do not discriminate.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I will support those who don't try to create "gay poor" by work discrimination
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 03:36 PM by bluedawg12
for starters.

True charity extends to every group and firing gays for orientation is neither charitable nor does it fight poverty.

>>KBHC fired Alicia Pedreira, a youth counselor with an outstanding job record, because she is a lesbian. The agency has publicly announced an across-the-board ban on gay employees because the “homosexual lifestyle” is contrary to Baptist values. <<
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. I wasn't aware of this.
Thank you for your post.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. You're welcome.
For the past 6 or 7 years this has pissed me off to no end.

I just want to remind everyone of this government-sanctioned discrimination. Especially this time of year when the SA is so visible.
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dickthegrouch Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
27. SA has always been as proud of its bigotry as the Scouts
I remember them defending their reparative therapy programs in the UK thirty years ago.
There was a big scandal one christmas about a man who had been forcibly removed from his partner's home and sequestered from any external contact in order to "cure him" of his homosexuality.
Since then I have never been anything less than disdainful of SA idiots.
I have also systematically challenged anyone I know to donate to different organizations than them.

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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. Please be specific. It is BOY SCOUTS not Girl Scouts that
discriminate. I was working with some girl scouts selling their cookies in my neighborhood. Some well meaning activists came up and started yelling at these little girls that he would never donate to an organization that discriminated as theirs did. Ignorance is no excuse for that offense to these children and I gave him a real tongue lashing.

It is NOT the Girl Scouts. Please inform others.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
60. I'm not dickthegrouch but I do concur.
Please don't lump the Girl Scout organization in with the Boy Scouts.

The two are like night and day in regards to sexuality issues.
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dickthegrouch Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
78. They dropped the "Boy" in the UK many years ago
The "Boy" was considered demeaning and was dropped from their name in 1976 if I remember correctly.

If the US organization styles its name differently, I stand corrected.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
67. The Girl Scouts do not discriminate...at all.
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insleeforprez Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
28. Is there an organization I should give my money to
that does as much good work as the Salvation Army does without the anti-gay prejudice? If not, I will feel no guilt dropping a few dollars into their jar.
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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Talk to your local UCC, UMC, Episcopalian, or ELCA churches
Some may form partnerships to handle these things.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. As a kid I used to ring bells for the Salvation Army and it breaks my heart
to pass by those kettles. I personally know people who had Christmases only due to the Salvation Army. But I also know gay people who got discriminated against by them. There is a local homeless shelter that helped and now employs a person who regularly attends the gay AA meeting I go to. That shelter will get my donations.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. I just worry that no connection nor motivation to change is
being delivered. Arguably lost revenues in this climate could readily be attributed to the economy, or concluding people are less generous now...:shrug:
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. that is the point of the queer money
to let them know why.
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RobertDevereaux Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
38. As I understand it...
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 04:59 PM by RobertDevereaux
it's the SA at the national level that is behind their bigoted posture.

Recently the Western Region was planning to provide Domestic Partner benefits.

National nixed it:

http://smichaeltaylor.blogspot.com/2008/11/salvation-army-rescinds-benefits-to-gay.html

My charitable giving must go elsewhere.

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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
39. Anytime I see an opportunity to donate money to help people in need..
I do, no matter what there political leanings are.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. So if the KKK ran a soup kitchen you would pitch in some money?
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. So your trying to compare the SA to the KKK?
Do you honestly believe that the two are even comparable?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. You said, and I quote, "I don't care about politics"
I am testing that theory. Would you give money to a KKK run soup kitchen, yes or no?
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Only if Hitler and Ghengis Khan were serving out the food.
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 05:37 PM by mrbarber
I mean, since were being ridiculous might as well take it to the next level, eh?

Edit:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4544005

Speaking of boycotting charities.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. How about the Conservative Citizens Council?
would they be OK? If not, why not? The Klan you can argue are violent, but not the CCC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Conservative_Citizens

But I know racism is different than anti gay bigotry. I get it. You should just admit it. It isn't that you don't care about poltics. It is that you care less about gays than about racial minorities.
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. So first the KKK and now the CCC?
"The Council of Conservative Citizens (CofCC) is an American far-right organization that supports a large variety of conservative causes along with white nationalism and white separatism." Funny-don't see anything about helping the poor in there.

So there similiar to the Salvation Army too, huh? Man, Remind me never to go to any of the SA's around your place.

As for the rest of your little tirade, not worth responding to.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. So still no real answer
The fact is the CCC does do some charity work in the South (I used to live in MS so have seen it). I will admit that isn't their central mission but they do, do some. Conversly the Salvation Army has repeatedly lobbied to take away gay rights at every turn. They have opposed gay civil rights laws, refused to help gays out, and have fired gay employees.
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Okay, you win.
I would not donate money to the KKK or the CCC to help the poor. I also would avoid the Neo-Nazi party, the Skinheads, and a few other groups who base their entire idealogy on hatred and discrimination.

That being said, do I believe that the SA is in anyway comparable to these organizations? I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would (them most of all, I'm sure).

So I will continue to drop a dollar into the Salvation Army bucket, just like I will continue to buy extra food when I go to the grocery store to donate to the Manna food bank and donate money to the "Real Change" homeless boxes, just like I alwasys have. And if I see a group of Boy Scouts trying to raise money for a charity, or raise money so that they can go on a special trip that they would not be normally able to go on, than yes, I will also donate a dollar or two to them, because I don't think you should punish an 8 year old because there organization has anti-gay views. I will, however, boycott anyone who donated money to the Prop 8, but i'm sure as hell not going to advocate preventing hungry and homeless individuals from receining food and other aid, ESPECIALLY around the holiday season.

And one other thing, I hope that everyone who is so quick to condemn the SA is doing their own part to help those less fortunate, especially in these dire financial times, other than printing up fake dollar bills.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. I give money to my local homeless shelter as I stated up thread
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 06:01 PM by dsc
but I fail to see the difference between an organization which lobbies against civil rights laws for racial minorities (the CCC) and one which does so against civil rights laws based on sexual orientation (the salvation army)
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. So you really, honestly can't see a difference between the CCC and the SA?
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 06:10 PM by mrbarber
Even though there is a push in the Salvation Army, just like in many Religius institutions, to be more accepting of GLBT folks? As someone posted earlier in the thread:

"it's the SA at the national level that is behind their bigoted posture.

Recently the Western Region was planning to provide Domestic Partner benefits.

National nixed it:

http://smichaeltaylor.blogspot.com/2008/11/salvation-ar..."

And you said that you knew people who were only fed because of what the salvation army provided for them. And yet you would deny them food because you disagree what a few asshats at the top of the company have to say?

Edit: I notice you have a cross in your sig. Tell me, how do you think Jesus would feel about you not taking every opportunity to help feed and cloth the homeless?

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Salvation Army refuses to serve or hire gays
and thus by giving money to inclusive charities I am making sure that no one is left out.
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. They refuse to serve gays?
Do you have any proof backing this statement up?

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. several gay members here have directly reported such
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 06:51 PM by dsc
and so have serveral gays I have personally known. In this very thread is a mention of one case. They get no money from me until they change their ways. Post 34 have the report I speak of.
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Post 34 talks about the UK 30 years ago.
I linked another post that mentioned how some of the SA chapters are trying to move beyond their bigotry but got shot down by the National office, which shows that it is making steps in the right direction. And than mentions something about a homosexual man being forced out of his home, I however can not find any mention of this. I will continue looking though.

And I know several gay folks, who were homeless at one time (gotta love close minded families) who were fed during the Holidays by the SA. And None of them has mentioned being turned away-or even being asked-what their sexual orientation was.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Your much vaunted sign of tolerence
was for one reason only. San Francisco wouldn't give them money if they didn't comply with the law.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/s/salvationarmybenefits.htm

So the Western Region caved then the national decided to just bully their way around the law by getting Bush and company to exempt them.
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thrift_store_angel Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Your sense of outrage is completely unfounded.
but i'm sure as hell not going to advocate preventing hungry and homeless individuals from receining food and other aid, ESPECIALLY around the holiday season.

Neither is anyone else here. FACT -- there are plenty of other organizations out there that help families and individuals in need without harming or attempting to harm other segments of society. Continuing to defend the SA when there are so many alternatives out there just shows your blatant disregard for the harm done to the GBLT community by such organizations.
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. As I mentioned before-
The SA is not the only charity I donate to. However, I do see them around more than any other charitable organization, I will continue to give them money.

Using the reasoning provided in this thread, than donating money to any charity which is backed or even funded by a most religious institutions is also supporting bigotry.
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thrift_store_angel Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. In other words...
because the SA is the easiest and most convenient way for you to donate money you will continue to give to them regardless of how much they trample on others civil rights. What an inspiring attitude. I am glad there wasn't anything like 8 - 10 hour voting lines during the last election to make voting inconvenient for anyone.
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. In other words..
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 07:38 PM by mrbarber
I will continue to give money to a charity that helps feed and clothe those less fortunate and who is trying to become more tolerant of the GLBT community, albeit not as quickly as one would hope for.

I also think love can overcome hate.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. mrbarber, I'd like to jump in here with a question.
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 08:12 PM by dweeb
You said: "I will continue to give money to a charity that helps feed and clothe those less fortunate and who is trying to become more tolerant of the GLBT community, albeit not as quickly as one would hope for.

I also think love can overcome hate."





You'd like to give money to a charity that helps those less fortunate, yet you support the Salvation Army which has an official policy of exclusion and discrimination.

If my family were to be so unfortunate as to lose our home to a fire you, kind sir, are supporting an organization that can and in all likelihood will deny me any assistance because I am a gay man living with my partner in a 1 bedroom home.


So I ask you this:

I have never met you in real life and probably will not. Our paths will never cross and our lives will never intertwine.

What right is it of yours to endorse, support, or even condone any group or organization that will deny my right to live freely and enjoy the benefits of being a tax-paying American?

Who made you the one to decide what I deserve and what I do not deserve?

Please, if you have any convictions whatsoever, answer my questions.

Otherwise, go somewhere else to troll your nonsense.

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marybourg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
61. As a jew
the SA would not be my first choice for my charitable contributions, but I frequently think of my husband's uncles' experiences. They fought in the worst of the cold slog thru Europe during WWII. The Red Cross was there to offer assistance to the troops, but always from a safe distance behind the front, with the HQ staff. The SA people were right behind the front line troops. Immediately after a position was secured, someone from the SA was there to offer a hot drink, a handkerchief, a pack of cigarettes (I know, I know). They faced and shared the same danger the grunts did. I was very moved by this, and have always supported them. But I certainly can understand how someone who is directly discriminated against by them feels.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. marybourg I agree with your historical assessment of the Salvation Army.
But they're not the organization that grew out of the 40s. The SA of today is yet another Christian-run organization that hides behind governmental loopholes that allow them to openly and blatantly discriminate against GLBT in the workplace.

This isn't 1950 anymore. The fact that gay rights is still an issue is truly a National disgrace.

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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
62. SA: Religious intolerance, money spent for lobbying, union-busting
and other history...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salvation_Army

The Salvation Army is a Christian charity and church that is internally organised like a military service. Its founders William and Catherine Booth sought to bring Christian salvation to the poor, destitute and hungry by meeting both their physical and spiritual needs.

The Salvation Army is both a charity and social services organization; and a denomination of the Christian religion. One of its stated objectives is:

The advancement of the Christian religion as promulgated in the religious doctrines . . . which are professed, believed and taught by the Army and, pursuant there to, the advancement of education, the relief of poverty, and other charitable objects beneficial to society or the community of mankind as a whole.

The international headquarters is at 101 Queen Victoria Street, London, England, with branches around the world. It is sometimes colloquially referred to as the "Sally Ann" in Canada, the "Sally Army" in the United Kingdom and New Zealand, and the "Salvos" in Australia.

As the popularity of the organization grew and Salvationists worked their way through the streets of London attempting to convert individuals, they were sometimes confronted with unruly crowds. A family of musicians (the Frys, from Alderbury near Salisbury in Wiltshire, the home of the Salvation Army Band) began working with the Army as their "bodyguards" and played music to distract the crowds. They were also involved in union-busting actions: Salvation Army bands would show up at union actions and attempt to bring down the union activities with hymns and music. This in turn led the Industrial Workers of the World to create their own lyrics set to popular Salvation Army Band tunes, many of which remain in that union's "Little Red Songbook."<6>

Controversy

United States

Opposition to hiring homosexuals
The Salvation Army in the U.S. has been the topic of many controversial discussions about discrimination against homosexuals in their hiring practices.<7> According to lesbian/gay newsmagazine The Advocate, the Bush administration was "willing to do whatever it takes to perpetuate, support, and defend discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender individuals" in exchange for The Salvation Army's lobby support for Faith-Based Initiatives, in what the publication described as a "secret arrangement."<8> The New York Times reported that the Salvation Army believed it had a firm commitment from the White House to issue a regulation that would override local antidiscrimination laws. A disclosure of The Salvation Army's request "outraged some civil rights groups and lawmakers," and resulted in an immediate reversal of a previous promise to honor the request.<9>

The Salvation Army's position is that because it is a church, Section VII of the U.S. Civil Rights Act of 1964 explicitly guarantees its right to discriminate on the basis of its religious beliefs in its hiring. To reinforce its position, it threatened to close all soup kitchens in New York City when the city government proposed legislation that would require all organizations doing business with it to provide equal benefits to unmarried domestic partners.<10>

Financial accountability
Because the Salvation Army is a billion-dollar organisation, Trent Stamp of Charity Navigator has questioned the Salvation Army's religious exemption from Form 990 (a financial accountability report filed by most relief organisations).<11> The Salvation Army publishes an annual report on its website.

..........
http://www.commondreams.org/news2001/0710-08.htm
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
JULY 10, 2001

Human Rights Campaign

HRC Calls On Administration to Clarify Stance on Reported Deal with Salvation Army To Discriminate Against Gays
Federal Money Should Not Be Used To Fund Discrimination, Says HRC


On the prospect of hiring lesbian and gay Americans, Salvation Army spokesman George Hood said in the memo that “it really begins to chew away at the theological fabric of who we are.” But the organization knew that its sudden endorsement of discrimination would upset those who see the group as non-ideological, according to the memo.

“The Salvation Army’s role will be a surprise to many in the media,” said the report which urged that the group should “minimize the possibility of any ‘leak’ to the media.”

To prevent public relations problems, such as today’s development, the Salvation Army — better known for helping the homeless — projects spending $88,000 to $110,000 a month for lobbying and public relations assistance.

..........

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar04/Berkowitz0316.htm


Salvation Army Discriminates
One of Nation's Largest Charities Sued by
Employees for Religious Discrimination
by Bill Berkowitz
www.dissidentvoice.org
March 16, 2004

All is not well with one of the nation's largest charities.

Eighteen current and former employees of the Salvation Army's social services arm have filed suit against the organization, accusing it of "imposing a religious veil over secular, publicly financed activities like caring for foster children and counseling young people with AIDS," the New York Times reported in late February. "I was harassed to the point where eventually I resigned," said Margaret Geissman, a former human resources manager who told the Times that her superior asked for the religions and sexual orientations of her staff. "As a Christian, I deeply resent the use of discriminatory employment practices in the name of Christianity."

The employees, "including senior administrators and caseworkers that are Jewish, Catholic, Protestant and nonreligious," filed their lawsuit in United States District Court in Manhattan. They're being represented by the New York Civil Liberties Union and by Martin Garbus, a well-known First Amendment lawyer. At a press conference announcing the suit, Garbus pointed out that it strikes at the heart of the president's faith-based initiative and the separation of church and state. Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, added that "It's critical at this stage of the game to put a stop to proselytizing with government money."

According to Reuters, the Salvation Army Greater New York Division receives $89 million a year in taxpayer money, mostly from the state, New York City and Nassau and Suffolk counties on Long Island. Anne Lown, a plaintiff and an associate director of the Army's children's services agency in New York, said that the charity employs nearly 900 people and provides services for more than 2,000 children.

The Salvation Army is no stranger to controversy revolving around issues related Bush's faith-based initiative. Six months after the initiative's unveiling in late January 2001, it was revealed that top-level administration officials had been conducting secret meetings with the Salvation Army to enlist its political and financial support for the then-flagging project. According to the Washington Post's Dana Milbank, the meetings, which included Karl Rove, the president's chief political strategist, and Don Eberly, the then Deputy Director of the newly opened White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, had been going on for several months.

An internal Salvation Army document indicated that in exchange for its support, "which included plans for an Army-sponsored $100,000 public relations campaign," the charity would receive assurances that any bill passed by Congress would contain a provision allowing religious charities to sidestep state and local anti-discrimination measures barring discriminatory hiring practices on the basis of sexual orientation.

After the Washington Post's story broke, the administration moved into denial mode, the Salvation Army backtracked, and congressional opponents of the initiative were furious. Salvation ArmyGate was one reason Bush's faith-based initiative languished legislatively on Capitol Hill for more than three years.

In retrospect, it appears that the Salvation Army didn't need any special exemption to discriminate against its employees. According to the New York Times, the plaintiffs are charging the Salvation Army's New York division of coercing them into "sign forms revealing the churches they had attended over the past 10 years, name their ministers and agree to the Army's mission 'to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.'" Some litigants claimed they were let go "after years of working in secular jobs when they objected to signing the forms. "Others," the Times reported, "said the new religious focus violated the social workers' ethics code and could have chilling effect on their work... for example, preventing them from giving condoms to people infected with H.I.V. or forbidding abortion counseling."

.........
http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/10/31/salv-army-review/
Salvation Army Lobbies for Religious Discrimination
Filed under Legislation, Religion by Peregrin Wood at 8:33 am

It’s almost time for those red kettles to go up in front of grocery stores across America, and all across America, people get all rosy cheeked just thinking about doing good… forgetting about all the organizations that do as much good without making such a big show about it… without thinking about where the money that goes into the red kettle really goes to.

Among other things, the money people give to the Salvation Army goes to pay the salaries of lobbyists in Washington D.C. What, oh what, do those Salvation Army lobbyists lobby for? The Salvation Army lobbies in favor of the political agenda of the Religious Right.

There’s the time, for example, when the Salvation Army leaders met behind closed doors with the Bush White House to come up with a strategy for passing a law that would allow government-funded groups to fire people for refusing to join the religions of their bosses. Convert and praise Jesus or lose your job, the Salvation Army law said. That was a practice that the Salvation Army was already engaging in, giving religious tests to employees and telling them to take a hike if the responses were not theologically correct, taking government money all the while. The Salvation Army spent hundreds of thousands of dollars of red kettle money on that political project alone.

What else does your red kettle donation pay for? Political organizing against same-sex marriage, for one thing. The Salvation Army uses its organization to promote opposition to equal marriage rights for same sex-sex couples. The web site of the Salvation Army states, “The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life. There is no scriptural support for same-sex unions as equal to, or as an alternative to, heterosexual marriage.” Catch that other part too - the only good homosexual is a homosexual who decides not to have sex for the rest of his or her life.

There’s also the Salvation Army’s history of rescinding benefits to same-sex domestic partners. Said the Human Rights Campaign, “We’re talking about health care, about providing health benefits, and what the Salvation Army has decided to do is prevent certain families from getting health care, and that’s just mean.” Salvation Army supporters responded to Portland’s request that it adhere to the city’s ordinance requiring organizations receiving money from the city government to provide benefits to same-sex domestic partners by sending hate mail with messages such as “You are a sick person who doesn’t deserve to be mayor.” Compassion?

Still want to put that money in the red kettle?

Consider the Salvation Army’s decision to put its religion ahead of the needs of homeless people in Wisconsin. When the Janesville City Council asked the Salvation Army to stop trying to convert people to evangelical Christianity with government money provided through the city government, the Salvation Army said no. The Salvation Army decided that it was more important to keep trying to convert people to Christianity than to help people in need, so it decided to stop work on a homeless shelter until the local government relented and allowed proselytization with government funds. A spokesman said that stopping its religious activities as part of government-funded programs that it administrates would stop the Salvation Army from fulfilling its mission “to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ”. The Salvation Army would let the homeless freeze outside in the Wisconsin winter weather rather than just stop telling people to worship Jesus.

Yes, government funds. The Salvation Army gets a huge amount of praise for helping people in need, but the truth is that a huge amount of the money that the Salvation Army spends comes directly from federal, state, and local government. We, the taxpayers of America, make the sacrifice, but the Salvation Army gets the credit with none of the oversight and accountability that ordinarily goes along with government programs. In 2005, for example, 95 percent of the Salvation Army’s budget for children services came from the federal government, and was used, among other things, to conduct an anti-gay witch hunt in which employees were told to look for signs of homosexual activity in their colleagues, and to expose those colleagues so that they could be fired.

The plain fact is that the Salvation Army would only conduct a tiny fraction of its charitable works if it did not receive billions of dollars of government money. Much of the red kettle money goes toward building and maintaining Salvation Army churches, like the ones Wrangell, Alaska; Griffin, Georgia; Thomasville, North Carolina; Gilroy, California; Kalispell, Montana; Fort Lauderdale, Florida and countless other places across the USA. When you throw your money into the red kettle, are you thinking about helping people in need or about maintaining the temple in Rochester, New York?

I’m not denying that the Salvation Army does some good things with its own resources, but most of the good work it does is with government resources that could just as easily go to other programs that don’t discriminate, don’t lobby the government, and don’t mix religion with social services. Let the Salvation Army support itself, and rely purely on private donations. If the Salvation Army wants to keep preaching a right wing agenda, then it’s long past time that it get off the government dole.
........

Some comments:

If you want to know about more unsavoury acts that the Salvation Army have a direct hand in, then why not look at what they’re doing right now to tenants of the All-Woman’s Building in Gramercy Park South (New York), that they own and run.

They recently decided to sell the building - and gave hundreds of women thirty day eviction notices, with only vague prior warnings that they’d be made to move out half a year down the line.

Not only this, but the way they actually went about doing it wasn’t particularly friendly, or graceful. They banged on the doors of all the rooms, then waved a camcorder and eviction notice in their faces.

Apparently they’re entirely within they’re rights to leave hundreds of women homeless (many of whom have been living there for upwards of forty years), even though the building was donated to them for the express purpose of housing women on a moderate income, because the Salvation Army are allegedly a non profit organisation. Even though they’re making major stacks from selling the building to be knocked down.

Not the sympathetic touch you’d expect from a charitable organisation. Hey, maybe they’ll use this money to publish more anti-homosexual propaganda. We all love that!

Comment by Michael — 2/4/2007 @ 1:30 pm

Here’s the link to an article about that;

http://www.nydailynews.com/01-19-2007/news/story/490064p-412756c.html

Comment by Michael — 2/4/2007 @ 2:37 pm
......
Hello,

Well writen. I am homeless and want off the streets. I am only give the chance to chase my tail by the Salvation Army and other organiztions around here.
Hot Dogs for breakfast,lunch and dinner.
Sack lunches consist of Vienna sausages and 6 month old
pastries and yogurt. (Everyday..all donated)
The Salvation Army does not give homeless clothing…the other agencies do…once and only once a month…ussually nothing you can wear to interview. And nowhere to store it but in the hallways or in the bushes…always gets stolen.
You must be in by 10:00 and leaze by 6:00…no matter what the temp.
At the Salvation Army you must shower every night. which is good…but they give you a half bar of small soap and a peice of a cut up WOOL BLANKET to dry with.That’s right WOOL. Other organizations give you nothing. Often you half to find your own soap, and use the clothes on your back to dry.
Ussually sleaping on a dirty mat or floor.
Ussually using a toilet that hasn’t been properly cleaned in months in a bathroom that smells worse than a dirty gas station bathroom. While their(the employees) bathrooms are kept spotless by those in ‘the program’. You can only imagine what that is.
You ask the social worker for help finding a job or transportation…they look at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears.
Where, is all this money going!!!Not to the homeless.
I’ll stop ranting this could go on for pages.
One less side note, it was 24 degrees outside, a person came in with a Pagan t-shirt in…which is a rock band…he was put out in the cold because he would’nt remove the shirt.

Comment by andrew — 2/7/2007 @ 9:44 pm
...






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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Wow
Guess I didn't realize just how crazy they really were.

I'll have to do a little more research into them, I admit that my opinon of them might be biased because I've heard first hand from people how they would have gone hungry without them. And the thought of anyone going hungry breaks my heart. I guess I just need to become a little more cynical when it comes to choosing charities.

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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Yeah, I was just doing a quick search and this came up.
Above all of the political concerns, one thing seems consistent, they do have money and even the kind hearted notion of helping the poor and needy above all else- which is a truly compassionate and over arching motive -- is called into question when one looks at their lack of financial transparency, church edifice building and huge amounts of tax payer money in addition to their annual holiday drive.

I agree, there is a great need for helping those who need food, shelter and the basics for a dignified life, but is this the best we as a society can do? Just wondering too...
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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Thanks for the info, bluedawg12.
I appreciate, as usual, your work in researching an important issue.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. ...
:thumbsup:
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
69. The bigotry is bad enough
but I have many more reasons why I haven't dropped a dime into a SA kettle in many years.

They operate seniors home in the city I live. 7 years ago, we unfortunately and foolishly elected in a neo-con gov't who proceeded immediately to gut the labour laws. The Sally Ann were the first to take advantage of this, they canned all their higher paid union support staff... kitchen, laundry and cleaning people and rehired new workers for minimum wage. Most of the workers they got rid of were middle aged women edging up on retirement. So it was a great savings for the SA, cheap wages and no pensions to worry about. Not so good for the older workers who lost their living, and the residents who lost the workers who cared about them and landed new ones who took no pride in their work.

I know someone who used to drive truck for SA, he said frequently people leave them things in their will like houses, fancy antique furniture and cars. He was told to take certain of the best things directly to the officers houses... which by the way are give free for them to live in. The "charity" is run like a corporation, right down to the fancy advertising. Everything they sell in their stores is donated but they price it so high that you may as well buy it new. People who need bargain stuff can't afford to shop there. And they don't give it away to people who need it. Oh No. One of the stores in a nearby town couldn't find enough staff at minimum wage so instead of paying a bit more, they closed the store down. Wouldn't want to set a precedence of paying a living wage, everyone might expect it.

There's lots more but that will suffice except to say that they are crooked as a dog's hind leg always pulling dirty ones on other charities in town as well as being total bigots. The only thing I donate to them is junk, and the only thing I put into their kettles are pithy little notes with sayings like "I heart my gay aunt" or "I support paying a living wage". I'd rather not get into it with the unfortunates who bang on the kettles as they are all conned into doing it out of the goodness of their hearts thinking they are helping someone.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
74. yep, i haven't given for years, ever since i heard their anti-gay stuff.
and in the olden days, when i was first in the workforce (young and idealistic and not earning much) i'd sometimes drop in a twenty. never again!
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galledgoblin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
79. used to love giving money to the red buckets, but haven't in several years
instead I found a few local groups I like and trust much more and will send them a check when I have the cash.
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