Pitt expert goes public to counter fallacy on autism

[Orrex]

Read the story here.

The centerpiece of the article, IMO:

One reason that the vaccine theory won't go away, she said, is the painful coincidence that most symptoms of autism show up in the second year of life, at 18 months on average, and that corresponds with the time many vaccinations are given.

When that happens, she said, "you want to blame something. Something horrible has happened to your child, and it did seem to start around that time, so for some people who aren't logical and who are affected, it's understandable that they would blame vaccinations.

"But when it gets to the point that people are seeing conspiracies at the Centers for Disease Control and they're accusing all these scientists and experts of conspiracy ... that's wrong."

The article is a little too kind to the new ABC series Eli Stone, but the meat of the article really hits the nail on the head.


Of course, I know that I won't be seen as credible until I can post 750-word excerpts from 3,000 quasi-credible sources, but I guess that I have to start somewhere...

[varkam]

1. Thanks for posting that.

I liked this bit of the article, too:

Autism is not caused by vaccinations, she says, and those who continue to push that theory are endangering the lives of children and misdirecting the nation's scarce resources for autism research.

Very true. I guess that's why I tend to get worked up about this.

And no, you will never be seen as credible until you can post hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed cites.

[restlessnative77]

55. vaccines/amalgams

There is a huge pile of evidence that suggests links between autism and vaccines, and other contamination sources. I don't understand how some people just don't see the danger coming. We are increasingly bombarded by toxins, and now we see the manifestation of this environmental holocaust, here it is, the slow destruction of our children. You can easily deny it if you haven't been hit yet, or if you have INVESTED interest in burying the truth. There are many scientists and doctors who believe there is more than a genetic explanation.

[cosmik debris]

2. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

You are right that you will not be accepted by the anti-vax crowd. Some of them believe that credibility comes from good book reviews in Amazon.com and a lot of google hits.

No shit, I'm not making that up.

[lizerdbits]

3. Thanks

But yes, you need to post links to an organization you work for, link to sites run by people selling their own books and vitamins, and equate a book that got lots of positive reviews on amazon to scientific evidence.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. And don't forget anecdotal evidence is much more reliable than scientific evidence.

Anti-vaccine people are really no different than AIDS denialists. Both will continue to promote and cling to their pseudoscience and crackpot beliefs long after their notions have been empirically disproved.

[lizerdbits]

5. Even better is

compiling anecdotes on a single message board of bad things happening after a vaccine is scientific PROOF that they are bad. As I noted elsewhere, everyone who eats salad eventually dies- avoid salads!

[Liberal Veteran]

6. Also don't forget that that all cases of SIDS and autism are linked to in utero gestation.

[restlessnative77]

56. cats suck

There are empirical studies that clearly show the links between toxicity and neurological disease. What the hell does AIDS have to do with this? AIDS is a virus you moron. We are talking about neurological damage,, DAMAGE! Oh by the way , have they opened the archives that hold the polio vaccines up for independent study?? (just wondering). Is it a far fetched idea to you, that injecting animal DNA directly into your bloodstream may not be such a good idea?lol Do you argue the tremendous toxcicity of mercury, because last I checked every scientist and doctor in the world agrees it is liquid vapor death. Oh wait, it is perfectly safe in your mouth! I forgot! lol Just as long as it's in your mouth, everything is fine according to the ADA.

[lizerdbits]

61. Why do you have something that "sucks" as your avatar?

If LiberalVeteran was a moron his grammar and punctuation would look like yours. Enjoy your stay!

[Warpy]

7. Well,

"I have CITES!"

:popcorn:

I've posted other such articles, but none seems to match the expertise of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., in that pinnacle of medical journalism, The Rolling Stone.

Good luck.

[Liberal Veteran]

8. Are you trying to imply that Rolling Stone isn't a well respected peer reviewed medical journal?

I am shocked! Shocked I say!

[cosmik debris]

9. Well, they are not as good as High Times

But they try.

[philb]

10. The CDC study using the data base showed harm; matter of record

Some at CDC are now saying otherwise, but the original findings and the fact that there was no basis for making changes to the original findings is a matter of public record.
The fact that vaccines commonly cause autism and other chronic health coniditons due to both immune reactivity and in those who are susceptible to neurological effects due to 390 times the health standard of mercury(Canada) or 53 times that of EPA, especially for those who are APOE type 4 blood allele types and can't excrete mercury, has been documented in the medical literature and in thousands of cases of clinical cases with tests, and signif. improvement after detox.
There are hundreds of peer-reviewed studies in the medical literature that document that toxic metals, with vaccines being a major source of mercury thimerosal in the past and still in some, were the most common causes of autism.
There is no credible evidence to the contrary
Documentation:
www.flcv.com/kidshg.html
www.flcv.com/tmlbn.html

There has been no credible evidence to contradict the peer-reviewed studies documenting the case as stated, as referenced in these links.

[Liberal Veteran]

11. You forgot to wear your official hat.

[Orrex]

12. Every time that you claim to know the cause of autism, you are lying

And, since that claim is the basis of pretty much every post I've ever read by you on the subject, well, you do the math...

[philb]

16. Thats a pretty nasty claim; and its not true; I never lie; always can back up what I say

[Orrex]

23. Really?

Tell us specifically what causes autism. Don't cut-and-paste huge swaths of dubious research by dubious researchers. Tell us specifically what causes the condition, and by what mechanism it operates.

If you can do this, you will become internationally famous overnight, because the causes (plural) are not known with certainty, in large measure because the condition is not understood with certainty.

Yet you claim again and again and again to know the cause. That is a lie. Or, if we're being charitible, it's a delusion. Either way, it's untrue, whether you realize it or not.

Regardless, any argument based on that untrue claim is itself untrue.

[restlessnative77]

57. dubious

first they ask for the research and science, then, they say don't just paste research,,,,,,well which is it?, do you want to argue over personal beliefs? or the actual research??? There is plenty of studies that are now showing these links, and by the way, god help us, autism is probably not only caused by vaccines alone,which should just kick the research into high gear, but everybody is so busy covering their own @#$ , right? so why don't you stop sucking the big FDA/PHARMA @$&! and get real,,

[cosmik debris]

25. It has already been confirmed that you only believe

those things that confirm your prejudice. You are a gullible fool if not an out-right liar.

Believing and repeating falsehoods is just as bad as being an intentional liar.

It really doesn't matter which is the case, you are dangerous. You are wrong. You are gullible. You are seriously mistaken.

[philb]

29. No one has demonstrated that; I'm still waiting. No one else here has as much experience

or as much knowledge of the medical literature on these issues as we do, since we've been doing research for many years and read thousands of studies, found none credibly harming the argument our papers make, and had over 10 years of clinical experience following thousands of children being tested and treated by the clinics we interact with throughout this country and in some other countries. You can't document what you claim, I'm still waiting, and if you were to I would accept it; I understand when a scientific argument has been validly made. I have nothing but the kids best interest at heart. And what we've seen over that time has been clear and consistent, but in the studies and the clinical experience. How do you explain that ARI and the autism assoc. and researchers working with the children and clinics, could be so wrong, since they have concluded the same as us. You have't explained why you think you know better than them, who clearly have a lot more experience with this than you, since they have the experience of large numbers of clinics, doctors, medical tests, researchers, etc. over a long period of time.

[cosmik debris]

40. You demonstrated it yourself. Several times!

You reject all the studies and documentation that does not confirm your prejudice.

You brag about your knowledge. Tell us which Medical School you attended. Tell us where you got your advanced degrees in biochemistry and immunology.

On second thought, don't bother. I know you will lie to us again just like you lie about your IQ and your other academic history. Your vanity prevents you from telling the truth.

You have an extreme emotional attachment to this bogus theory and it makes you look like a fool. You would be well advised to keep those embarrassing deficiencies to yourself. Bragging about them is not helping your standing. You just look like a bigger and bigger fool.

[philb]

50. Studies in the med. lit. have documented the mechanisms of vaccines/mercury causing autism -documen

Studies in the med. lit. have documented the mechanisms of vaccines/mercury causing autism -documen
Edited on Wed Feb-06-08 04:51 AM by philb
The studies in the medical literature have documented some of the mechanisms by which vaccines/mercury cause autism

Immune reactivity/autoimmune effects

(Vaccine Induced Demyelination (or other mercury source)
http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-demyelination.htm
http://www.melisa.org/autism.php

Auto-Immunity, Vaccines and Autism
http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-auto-immunity.htm#auto


The beneficial effect of amalgam replacement on health in patients with autoimmunity. Prochazkova J, Sterzl I, Kucerova H, Bartova J, Stejskal VD; Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2004 Jun;25(3):211-8.
http://www.nel.edu/pdf_/25_3/NEL250304A07_Prochazkova_.pdf


Hormonal/androgenic effects (www.flcv.com/autismhg.html and www.flcv.com/kidshg.html )

Neurotoxic effects of mercury/aluminum/lead/arsenic/antimony (www.flcv.com/tmlbn.html )

Schizophrenic effects of enzymatic blockages of the enzymes processing glutena and casein(milk products) that result in high levels of morphine like substances in the blood of autistic, schizophrenic, ADHD, children.
(see Univ. of Florida Medical School study- www.flcv.com/kidshg.html )

other mechanisms by which mercury/vaccines have been documented to cause autism are in www.flcv.com/kidshg.html

[cosmik debris]

52. same crap over and over and over and over and over ...

It wasn't true the first time you posted it. It wasn't true the fiftieth time you posted it. It wasn't true the hundredth time you posted it. You don't seem to be able to tell the difference between truth and fiction do you?

[cosmik debris]

13. evidence against the notion that mercury toxicity causes autism

Williams PG and others. A controlled study of mercury levels in hair samples of children with autism as compared to their typically developing siblings. Research in Autism Spectrum Disorders (in press), 2007. Although autism has no logical association with mercury toxicity or other heavy metal exposure, oral and topical chelation therapy are being used to treat autism after evaluation of hair, blood, or urine samples for heavy metal toxicity. In this study, hair samples were obtained from 15 children ages 2 to 6 with autism and 16 of their nonautistic siblings in the same age range. No significant differences in mercury levels were found between the two groups. This study is strong evidence against the notion that mercury toxicity causes autism.

I know you won't believe this because are closed minded to any study that does not confirm your prejudice, but there it is in black and white.


That was a controlled study, not a survey of pet owners.

[philb]

31. Actually not controlled; and this measure well known to not be valid; here's why

If I look at it more I'll likely find more problems, I haven't seen this one, but its superficially not valid since the measure chosen (hair mercury level) is actually negatively correlated with degree of autism in autistic kids.

It has been consistently demonstrated that in those susceptible to mercury toxicity, that the hair mercury level is consistently very low, even though the body burden is demonstratably very high(as has been demonstrated in the literature as well as thousands of clinical cases)(with no credible evidence to the contrary)

One susceptability factor is ability to excrete mercury, for those with blood allele type APOE-4 who have been found to not be able to excrete mercury, they accumulate mercury in the brain and other major organs and are affected by conditions like autism, ADHD, etc. etc.
www.flc.com/suscept.html

And another known susceptablitiy mechanism for autism likewise would not be identified by this poorly organized study.
That is immune reactivity. Immune reactivity/autoimmunity has been demonstrated to be the primary cause of autoimmune conditions like MS, Lupus, eczema, thyroiditis, and many autism cases. http://www.melisa.org/autism.php
Vaccine Induced Demyelination (or other mercury source)
http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-demyelination.htm

Auto-Immunity, Vaccines and Autism
http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-auto-immunity.htm#auto

(the fact that a significant/sizable portion of the population of children is higly reactive to thimerosal or aluminum in vaccines has been well documented by blood immune reactivity tests and patch tests for a long time; the authors of this study obviously haven't bothered to read the literature either regarding immune reactivity or hair test level usefulness for mercury body burden)

The reason I don't use such studies is not that I have a bias against the results; its that the study clearly was poorly done and invalid. You can't use invalid studies for anything useful, except to demonstrate how to do the next study better.

[cosmik debris]

37. You only believe that which confirms your prejudice. n/t

[philb]

42. Actually anyone with real research or clinical experience on mercury knows I'm correct(seeJAMA art.)

and you are wrong. (and Duke Med. Sch. study and other med. studies)

All DAN Doctors treating autistic kids know this; all credible researchers who have researched the medical literature or done real studies know it. Its trivial for a real scientist to confirm this.
As I have noted before and documented and is known by anyone with experience regarding mercury research, there are different blood allele types based on Apolipoprotein that determine one's ability to excrete mercury. Type APOE-4 cannot excrete mercury and accumulate mercury and are the ones most affected by mercury resulting in autism and other adult autoimmune conditions. And for APOE-4s they have extremely low hair levels even though they have very high mercury body burdens and high mercury toxicity effects. This is widely known by researchers and confirmed in both clinical and medical literature widely. Hair level is only a good indication of mercury body burden in type APOE-2. Not well correlated in type APOE-3.
I've already documented this in www.flcv.com/suscept.html with peer-reviewed studies and clinical evidence. All of the doctors testing and treating autistic kids for mercury and such know this and have confirmed it with thousands of medical lab studies.
Here are more peer-reviewed references snipped from a large study documenting widespread harm from mercury. www.flcv.com/amalg6.html

snipped:
Another genetic difference found in animals and humans is cellular retention differences for metals related to the ability to excrete mercury(426). For example it has been found that individuals with genetic blood factor type APOE-4 do not excrete mercury readily and bioaccumulate mercury, resulting in susceptibility to chronic autoimmune conditions such as Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, etc. as early as age 40(437cd,577), whereas those with type APOE-2, which contains 2 cysteine molocules, readily excrete mercury and are less susceptible.

(426) Hultman P, Nielsen JB. The effect of toxicokinetics on murine mercury-induced autoimmunity. Environ Res 1998, 77(2): 141-8; & Hultman et al, "Activation of the immune system and systemic immune-complex deposits in Brown Norway rats with dental amalgam restorations", J Dent Res, 77(6):1415-25, (Jun 1998)
(437) &(c) American College of Medical Genetics Working Group findings on ApoE4 strong connection to Alzheimer’s, JAMA, 1995,274:1627-29. ; & Duke Univ. Medical Center, www.genomics.duke.edu/pdf/Alzheimer.pdf
&(d) Godfrey ME, Wojcik DP, Krone CA. Apolipoprotein E genotyping as a potential biomarker for mercury neurotoxicity. J Alzheimers Dis. 2003 Jun;5(3):189-95.
(577) Joachim Mutter et al, Alzheimer Disease: Mercury as pathogenetic factor and apolipoprotein E as a moderator, Neuroendocrinol Lett 2004; 25(5):331–339; & (b) Mutter J, Daschner F, et al, Amalgam risk assessment with coverage of references up to 2005] , Gesundheitswesen. 2005 Mar;67(3):204-16.


Here is a book by a PhD Chemist with over 15 years experience reserching the mercury/autism/ADHD connection and in the treatment of many thousands of such kids. The book also confirms what I've indicated with lots of refernces and clinical experience. Both he and I have seen thoussands of hair test results of these kids which confirm that those with autism (mostly APOE-4s) consistently have extremely high mercury body burdens but extremely low hair test levels.

Hair Test Interpretation: Finding Hidden Toxicities By Andrew Hall Cutler, PhD, P.E.
http://books.google.com/books?id=U765adeBPlEC&dq=andy+cutler+hair+test&pg=PP1&ots=29N68emIOk&sig=Ra4VP4lD8haM3grd9SRGHWDTl7o&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=andy+cutler+hair+test&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail

There is a huge amount of more such, including the FAQs of the Yahoo Group Autism Forums that have had thousands of autism cases with hair test data that we've followed. The test results are a matter of record there on their sites and confirm what I've told you. You are wrong this study was totally flawed and useless.

Yahoo Group Autism Forums whose sites have the documentation of what I've indicated here: Autism-Mercury and Chelatingkids2

[trotsky]

53. Wrong, Bernie.

All credible experts disagree with you. I have 14.2x10^5 cites and links and websites that prove it. Show me one credible source that differs. You haven't yet.

[philb]

68. There are many dozens of MDs treating autism who obviously agree with me and the ARI ressearchers

who have at least as much experience with autism cases and autism research as anyone; and virtually all of the researchers at the Autism conferences that we've attended. And I've posted peer-review studies by a lot of reserchers who clearly agree with me. For example there is a big Autism Conference in Orlando this Thursday-Sunday, where I'm sure virtually all speakers, MDs, and researchers there will mostly agree with me. I've seen the speaker lists and topic summaries.
So clearly you are inaccurate to say that all experts disagree with me.
In fact the only ones who I am aware of who disagree with me are people with special interest connections or people who have no experience in testing or treating kids with autism. Do you know of any that don't belong to one of these groups? In any case, I think my sources are more credible since they have been actually testing and treating the kids (successfully and more so than any others I'm aware of) for many years.
And all of the test results I've seen from the doctors and parents of the kids (thousands such) and all of the case history experience from over 10 years of our following this, supports what I say, as does the large Autism Assoc. survey of parents.
So we know your statement isn't accurate in this case; So can you make a credible case with some valid studies or documentation that something I posted is inaccurate? That would be more credible than making inaccurate claims.

[restlessnative77]

58. blathering

? what are you talking about?


he shut you down!LOL

[cosmik debris]

60. If you bother to read his crap

You will discover that his citations do NOT prove the points he contends.

In some cases he uses surveys of parents or pet owners instead of health care professionals to justify his claim of cures. In another case he used Amazon.com book reviews to prove the credibility of a source.

Poor philb has lost touch with reality.

[philb]

32. Got another study you think demonstrates your belief: I guarantee I can debunk it and that you can't

demonstrate that we're wrong. We know because we've looked at all studies in the literature that we are aware of and have found no credible studies that have validly demonstrated what you suggest.
What's the next one you would like to discuss; it would be helpful if you have a URL to the full study; and we'll be glad to analyze it for you. But an abstract like Medline would be a start.

[cosmik debris]

38. You only believe that which confirms your prejudice.

Your mind is closed. You are unable to see anything but your own superstition. You presume all contradictory facts are invalid. No evidence could ever overcome your hatred of the truth.

[lizerdbits]

14. It's doctor philb again!

[Liberal Veteran]

15. Maybe the cure for autism is those Kinoki foot pads that draw the mercury out of your feet?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[philb]

19. You guys can play silly games and quote bogus experts & studies, but the science is clear

There is no credible study that documents that vaccines were not a factor in many cases of autism. You can't find a single one.
There are a lot of peer-reviewed studies that document mercury and other toxic metals are the most common cause of autism, a common cause of eczema and many other childrens conditions; most autoimmune conditions, That is the overwhelming consensus of scientists and the scientific record;
As documented in the FDA amalgam docket where there were over 3000 peer-reviewed studies documenting the harm of dental amalgam fillings, and no credible studies to the contrary; matter of public record; and as found by the FDA panel- amalgam is not safe; as neither is mercury in vaccines.
Here is American Dental Associaton study input of whether mercury causes harm, on balance their studies document that it does cause harm, they found no credible peer-reviewed studies in the literature to the contrary:
www.flcv.com/adaabsr.html
Here are the over 3000 peer-reviewed studies submitted by scientists and doctors,etc.- all documented that mercury commonly causes adverse health effects
www.flcv.com/fdatally.html
www.flcv.com/fdarev.html
www.flcv.com/fdarevl.html

You can actually see all of the studies submitted to the FDA and confirm for youself that what I say is accurate, on these sites or the FDA Docket file.
The studies submitted by all parties overwhelming supported that mercury from dental amalgam causes common advere health effects. the documentation in the medical literature likewise shows the same thing for vaccines with thimerosal.
www.flcv.com/kidshg.html
I challenge anyone to provide evidence that the studies that I am citing on this URL are not valid and don't document that vaccine/mercury/toxic metals are a major cause of autism.
I know you can't do it. You've had lots of chances but have produced no evidence to date. and there has been no such evidence supplied in the peer-review process to show the problems with the over 100 studies cited here.


Nor can you explain why the Autism Assoc. and Autism Research Institute that have been working with children with autism and their parents for over 25 years and doing research and holding conferences with the doctors treating them, has stated in press releases and on their web site that vaccines/thimerosal has been a cause of autism, and recommends that parents of autistic children use DAN doctors who do detox therapy for mercury/toxic metals as treatment for the children; and has a very large survey of parents documenting that mercury/metals detoxification is by far the most effective treatment for autism and most who do it significantly improve or are cured.
www.autism.com

Both the science and the thousands of cases of autism treated by autism treatment clinics say the same thing;

If you guys think there is in fact a major cause other than vaccines/toxic metals what is it?
and what is a treatment that has as much success as metals detox?
The parents of hundreds of thousands of autistic children are waiting for your answer to their childrens problems.
Should they go with what I and the Autism Association and the doctors successfully treating autism say,
or with you guys who have no clue about the causes and treatments of autism, and who apparently aren't even willing to read the medical literature, and discuss the accuracy and usefulness of the studies that have been done.

[lizerdbits]

20. You are the one posting bogus bullshit

The same links over and over with the same cut and paste shit. NO ONE BELIEVES YOU!!! GIVE IT UP!!!! Or keep making yourself look stupid and we'll keep making fun of you.

[philb]

21. I challenge you again; make a case; claiming is easy; its obvious you can't show me

that the studies that I've posted aren't valid or that they don't document exactly what I say.
The scientific method is very straight forward. For the hundreds of studies that I've supplied, all you have to do is choose one and show that either the form of the scientific argument is valid, or that one of the hypothesis isn't true.
If that were the case some one should have done it in the peer-review process. And if you claim the studies aren't valid, why haven't you been able to explain or demonstrate why for some of these studies.
Apparently either the studies are all valid or you don't have enough background in science to evaluate the accuracy of a study.

If you point me to some study that you think demonstrates that vaccines/toxic metals haven't caused autism, I'll demonstrate to you what is wrong with it.
I know that I can because many years of experience with the children and the clinics treating them have overwhelming demonstrated that the largest problem for most (documented by hundreds of thousands of test results by medical labs) ; and also that as they detox and metal levels come down their conditions improve.

[lizerdbits]

22. Multiple people have been over and over this with you

but you've just been spamming the same links and cut and paste crap over and over. You've cited decades old information, natural cure websites, message board posts, and studies that don't draw the conclusions you claim they do. OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Why should we continue to debunk your bullshit when you just

[Orrex]

24. But he doesn't acknowledge any of those refutations, so they don't exist, see?

Classical pseudoscientific pseudoreasoning: embrace the data that suits you; disregard the rest.

[philb]

33. Actually I've demonstrated what's wrong with both of your studies here, you haven't mine

I'll give you another chance. Promise to accept it if you can validly demonstrate your case.

[cosmik debris]

39. You haven't demonstrated shit. (except your closed mindedness)

You just dismiss all contradictory evidence without bothering to discover how that evidence is better than yours.

You fail in the most basic of scientific principles: A theory must explain all the evidence.

Your theory only explains the evidence you can see with your eyes closed.

When contradictory evidence is presented, you deny its existence.

Your whole position is based on pseudo-science. That is why it is rejected by all mainstream physicians and almost the entire medical community.

I know you will refute this by posting the same bogus links over and over again. But they don't work. They don't account for all of the evidence and therefore are not valid.

Give it up. You are not fooling anyone by pretending to be a scientist. You are nothing more than a crack pot with too much time on your hands.

[cosmik debris]

26. evidence against the notion that mercury toxicity causes autism

Williams PG and others. A controlled study of mercury levels in hair samples of children with autism as compared to their typically developing siblings. Research in Autism Spectrum Disorders (in press), 2007. Although autism has no logical association with mercury toxicity or other heavy metal exposure, oral and topical chelation therapy are being used to treat autism after evaluation of hair, blood, or urine samples for heavy metal toxicity. In this study, hair samples were obtained from 15 children ages 2 to 6 with autism and 16 of their nonautistic siblings in the same age range. No significant differences in mercury levels were found between the two groups. This study is strong evidence against the notion that mercury toxicity causes autism.

I know you won't believe this because you are closed minded to any study that does not confirm your prejudice, but there it is in black and white.


That was a controlled study, not a survey of pet owners.

[philb]

34. Actually you are wrong again; see post 31 for documentation

[philb]

35. Here's an analysis of the CDC database data that supports my case

A study at the U.S. CDC found "statistically significant associations" between neurologic developmental disorders such as autism, attention deficit disorder(ADD) and speech disorders with exposure to mercury from thiomersal containing vaccines before the age of 6 months (62,80). An analysis of the U.S. CDC VAERS database for adverse reactions from vaccines regarding effects of the diptheria-tetanus-pertusis vaccine found that those receiving DTaP and DTucP vaccines with thimerosal had significantly higher rates of autism, speech disorders, and heart arrest than those receiving DtaP vaccine without thimerosal, and that the rate of these increase exponentially with dose(81). An analysis of the U.S. Dept. of Education report on the prevalence of various childhood conditions among school children found that the rate of autism and speech disorders increased with increasing levels of thimerosal exposure from vaccines(81).

A followup study using DMSA as a chelator found that overall, urinary mercury concentrations were significantly higher in children with autistic spectrum disorders than in a matched control population, and that vaccinated cases showed significantly higher urinary mercury concentrations than vaccinated controls(81b). This is consistent with other studies that found that those who are poor excreters of mercury are more likely to accumulate mercury and have adverse health effects. Changes in birth

Two groups of children were compared using the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) for neurodevelopment disorders (NDs), one receiving thimerosal containing vaccines (TCV) and the other similar non-thimerosal containing vaccines. Significantly increased risks of autism, speech disorders, mental retardation, personality disorders, thinking abnormalities, ataxia, and NDs were associated with TCV exposure(81c)

(80) Geier M.R., Geier DA; Neurodevelopmental disorders following thimerosal-containing vaccines. Ex Biol Med, April 2003.
(81) Geier M.R., Geier DA; Thimerosal in Childhood Vaccines, Neurodevelopmental Disorders, and Heart Disease in the U.S. ; J of Amer Physicians and Surgeons, Vol 8(1), Spring 2003; & (a) Bradstreet J, Geier DA, et al, A case control study of mercury burden in children with Autisitic Spectrum Disorders, J of Amer Physicians and Surgeons, Vol 8(3), Summer 2003.
(c)A meta-analysis epidemiological assessment of neurodevelopmental disorders following vaccines administered from 1994 through 2000 in the United States. Geier DA, Geier MR. Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2006 Aug;27(4):401-13


see study abstracts at: www.flcv.com/autismhg.html

An IRB approved study assessing urinary levels of porphyrins found an apparent dose-response effect between autism severity and increased urinary coproporphyrins(91). For patients with non-chelated autism (83% had levels > 2 SD above the control mean) and for children with non-chelated AutismSpectrumDisorders (58% had levels > 2 SD above the control mean), but for patients with non-chelated pervasive developmental delay-not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS) or Asperger's disorder (46% had levels > 2 SD above the control mean). Each group of ASDs had significantly increased median coproporphyrin levels versus controls. A significant increase (1.7-fold) in median coproporphyrin levels was observed among non-chelated ASD patients versus chelated ASD patients. Mercury toxicity was found to be associated with elevations in urinary coproporphyrin (cP), pentacarboxyporphyrin (5cxP), and precoproporphyrin (prcP) (also known as keto-isocoproporphyrin) levels. Two cohorts of autistic patients in the United States and France each had urine porphyrin levels associated with mercury toxicity. Another study using chelation therapy on a group of autistic patients found significant improvement during the study period(96).

(91) A prospective study of mercury toxicity biomarkers in autistic spectrum disorders. Geier DA, Geier MR. J Toxicol Environ Health A. 2007 Oct;70(20):1723-30; & A prospective assessment of porphyrins in autistic disorders: a potential marker for heavy metal exposure. Geier DA, Geier MR. Neurotox Res. 2006 Aug;10(1):57-64
abstracts at: www.flcv.com/autismhg.html

(96) A clinical trial of combined anti-androgen and anti-heavy metal therapy in autistic disorders. Geier DA, Geier MR. Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2006 Dec;27(6):833-8; & A prospective assessment of androgen levels in patients with autistic spectrum disorders: biochemical underpinnings and suggested therapies. Geier DA, Geier MR. Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2007 Oct;28(5):565-73 www.flcv.com/autismhg.html

the difference in opinions about the federal database data needs further investigation- such as the Congressional Hearing refernced started- with access to the data by independent scientists with no special interest background in this issue.

[philb]

36. One of referenced studies whose abstract may not have been included above

Neurodevelopmental disorders after thimerosal-containing vaccines: a brief communication.Geier MR, Geier DA. Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2003 Jun;228(6):660-4.
The Genetic Centers of America, Silver Spring, Maryland 20905, USA.

We were initially highly skeptical that differences in the concentrations of thimerosal in vaccines would have any effect on the incidence rate of neurodevelopmental disorders after childhood immunization. This study presents the first epidemiologic evidence, based upon tens of millions of doses of vaccine administered in the United States, that associates increasing thimerosal from vaccines with neurodevelopmental disorders. Specifically, an analysis of the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) database showed statistical increases in the incidence rate of autism (relative risk = 6.0), mental retardation (RR = 6.1), and speech disorders (RR = 2.2) after thimerosal-containing diphtheria, tetanus, and acellular pertussis (DTaP) vaccines in comparison with thimerosal-free DTaP vaccines. The male/female ratio indicated that autism (17) and speech disorders (2.3) were reported more in males than females after thimerosal-containing DTaP vaccines, whereas mental retardation (1.2) was more evenly reported among male and female vaccine recipients. Controls were employed to determine if biases were present in the data, but none were found. It was determined that overall adverse reactions were reported in similar-aged populations after thimerosal-containing DTaP (2.4 +/- 3.2 years old) and thimerosal-free DTaP (2.1 +/- 2.8 years old) vaccinations. Acute control adverse reactions such as deaths (RR = 1.0), vasculitis (RR = 1.2), seizures (RR = 1.6), ED visits (RR = 1.4), total adverse reactions (RR = 1.4), and gastroenteritis (RR = 1.1) were reported similarly after thimerosal-containing and thimerosal-free DTaP vaccines. An association between neurodevelopmental disorders and thimerosal-containing DTaP vaccines was found, but additional studies should be conducted to confirm and extend this study.

[cosmik debris]

41. repetition, repetition. repetition, repetition, repetition

repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. repetition, repetition, repetition.

It is my opinion that you are a delusional nut job. All you do is repeat yourself and the foolish ideas that have been throughly discredited and rejected by the mainstream medical profession.

It is my opinion that you don't know you ass from a hole in the ground; that you believe only those things that you wish were true; that you reject any idea that conflicts with your prejudice; that you are so narrow minded that when you turn sideways you are invisible.

[philb]

65. But anyone with real science background and lack of bias sees I document what I claim with credible

documentation, where as you don't and can't give either a credible argument contrary to what I post or valid studies that document your case. I've provided evidence that shows that the studies claiming to show that vaccines/mercury/toxic metals aren't a factor in autism do not validly prove that case. And could not,
since there is more credible real studies by doctors testing and treating the kids documenting the mechanisms by which vaccines/mercury/toxic metals cause autism and developmental conditions for those who are susceptible (which is millions)

the mechanisms by which mercury/vaccines/toxic metals have been documented to cause autism include

immune reactivity,
accumulation in all major organs and brain due to inability to excrete mercury and toxic metals - blood allele type APOE-4s
damaged/blocked/deficient Metallothionein enzymatic process resulting in inability to excrete/detox toxic metals
binds to SH sulfhydrol radicals in amino acids, etc. resulting in blocked enzymatic processes for dealing with sulfur in foods and failure to provide needed body building blocks
blocks enzymatic processes for the Krebs energy cycle and production of heme in blood, resulting in dumping waste porphyrins in the urine rather than producing what the body needs- which is why the doctors treating them use the fractionated porphyrin test to diagnose what is blocked and what caused it
blocks the enzymatic processes that deal with gluten(wheat,etc.) and casein(milk), dumping morphine like substances into the blood resulting in schizophrenic symptoms in autisitic, schizophrenic, and ADHD kids (Univ. of Florida med school studies, Cade)
(which is why those treating autism put the kids on a gluten and milk free diet)
etc.
all of these mechanisms that mercury/toxic metals cause is documented in the medical literature and confirmed by tests at medical schools and by the doctors treating the kids, as documented by the studies refernced in
www.flcv.com/kidshg.html

And the results of the tests and treatments of thousands of autistic children at the autism treatment centers throughout the country- many of which we interact with, confirm all of the above study findings through medical tests; their findings are available in papers and conference findings, etc. (there is an autism conference in Orlando next week if you want to see some of the papers and the doctors treating the kids) (I've posted links to such)

Also the huge survey of parents of autistic children by the Autism Association/ARI that found the same thing, these kids have high toxic metal exposures and chelation/detox is the most successful treatment, with most signif. improving after detox treament.
Many are recovered and back in school even back up to their grade level, some making As etc. Lots of them are over average intelligence.
Parent Ratings of Behavorial Effects of Biomedical Interventions
http://www.autism.com/treatable/form34qr.htm
www.autism.com

[cosmik debris]

66. Your fixation has become pathological.

Mercury has become an obsession for you. It is your Moby Dick, your white whale.

You have abandoned the rational discussion and begun compulsively re-posting the same links over and over.

You really need to take a break and re-evaluate your behavior.

It is not healthy to continue on this path. Remember what happened to Capitan Ahab?

[philb]

17. CDC study documented vaccines cause Autism; Congress criticized CDC for coverup- documented

in Congressional Hearing; matter of public record (here is statement by MD member of the Committee)
One of the few physicians in Congress, Rep. Dave Weldon (R-Fla.), immediately saw the problems associated with the CDC study and notified CDC Director Julie Gerberding. Weldon wrote, "I have serious reservations about the four-year evolution and conclusions of this study. A review of these documents leaves me very concerned that rather than seeking to understand whether or not some children were exposed to harmful levels of mercury in childhood vaccines in the 1990s, there may have been a selective use of the data to make the associations in the earliest study disappear."

Weldon's letter to Gerberding goes on to observe that "the first version of the study, produced in February 2000, found a significant association between exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism and neurological developmental delays. A June 2000 version of the study applied various data manipulations to reduce the autism association to 1.69, and the authors went outside the VSD database to secure data from a Massachusetts HMO in order to counter the association found between TCVs and speech delays." Clear enough.

The Florida lawmaker, who is a staunch supporter of immunization, tells Insight, "I don't know what's going on. It's a pretty lame study to begin with. The way they've done it is they got some findings and started adding more numbers to the denominator - it's kind of a strange protocol they followed. Then there are all these quotes from the researchers from other documents about how you can add numbers and stratify things and get any outcome you want. Then you consider that the lead author is working for a drug company, didn't disclose this fact and also that it is one of the drug companies being sued over this mercury issue. I'm just very concerned that we're not going to get answers as long as there are careers at stake. You know there are people at the CDC who have been involved in the vaccine program who didn't recognize the amount of mercury they were giving kids, and now they're in the process of investigating themselves. Meanwhile a lot of these investigators bounce to and from the drug companies. I think it all is very, very murky and very suspicious."

Weldon summarizes: "The CDC produced an article by Dr. Verstraeten, published on Nov. 3 in Pediatrics. Dr. Verstraeten is a former CDC employee. Since 2001 he has worked for GlaxoSmithKline - a vaccine manufacturer. While working for the CDC in 2000, the first version of Dr. Verstraeten's unpublished study found an association between higher thimerosal exposures and neurodevelopment disorders, including autism. Between 2000 and 2003, Dr. Verstraeten and coauthors manipulated and stratified the data so much that each of these associations magically disappeared. I don't know if it was deliberate, but that is nonetheless what happened. This study has done nothing in my mind to put these concerns to rest, but only serves to raise suspicions."

This veteran member of Congress puts it plainly: "We're not going to get answers to these questions until Congress or some outside group starts poring through this information. But it's very coincidental that they added the hepatitis vaccine, the HiB vaccine and the chicken-pox vaccine - they added all these additional childhood vaccines around the time when the autism rate started to skyrocket. Then when you actually sit down and do the calculations, according to the Environmental Protection Agency , they were giving these kids very toxic levels of mercury. I mean as a 150- to 200-pound adult the EPA says you're not supposed to take in more than one microgram per day. They were taking little seven- and 10-pound babies and pumping 50 and 75 micrograms of mercury into them in one shot. That's like giving an adult 1,000 micrograms. And, on top of that, the World Health Organization says mercury is 10 times more toxic in children than it is in adults. It's horrifying."

[lizerdbits]

18. More

[philb]

27. Here's what's wrong with the Fombonne study quoted here; its not valid

Fombonne is a consultant for a vaccine manufacturer and the study is poorly done, has major flaws and doesn't prove that
vaccines(thimerosal,aluminum,2-phenoxyethanol,formaldehyde,etc.)and other toxic metals have not been a major cause of autism. Others have demonstrated the problems with this study, but I will point out the problems that I'm aware of.
(It should be clear that it has problems since the majority of science and clinical experience show these are a primary factor)

The Fombonne study being promoted do not have carefully constructed data bases of comparable data and did not measure levels of toxic metals that have been documented by medical studies and treatment clinics in autistic children- such as mercury, mercury thimerosal, aluminum, lead, arsenic, antimony, etc. (the autism treatment centers continue to find high levels of mercury and other metals in the kids with autism)

Many vaccines still have thimerosal. Contrary to what public is being told and studies assuming and claiming. See attached list. And some vaccine lots in vaccines that now have no thimerosal were being used as late as 2004.

Also, modern high copper amalgams cause more than 20 times as much mercury and copper release as the older "silver fillings"(35,182,258,297,298,299). Mom's dental amalgams have been found to be a significant source of mercury in the fetus and in infants.
www.flcv.com/amalg6.html
www.flcv.com/fetaln.html

Rhogam shots have high mercury levels which has been documented to increase autism rates significantly. Large numbers of pregnant women get these shots which also affect their children. www.flcv.com/autismhg.html
Also there has been a big marketing campaign to increase the number of pregnant women and infants receiving flu shots which contain high levels of thimerosal.

In recent years with more vaccines prescribed, children have gotten higher levels of aluminum, since high levels are in most vaccines. Aluminum has well documented adverse neurological effects and also doubles the toxicity of thimerosal.
www.flcv.com/vaxalum.html
It has been documented that even small amounts of thimerosal can adversely affect children and adults who are immune reactive to it. Immune reactivity of thimerosal has been documented to be a mechanism of autism causality, and a significant percentage of infants and adults are immune reactive to thimerosal. www.melisa.org http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-demyelination.htm http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-auto-immunity.htm#auto

The same is true for aluminum and formaldehyde, significant numbers of infants are immune reactive to aluminum or formaldehyde or other ingredients in vaccines, and vaccines have high levels of such.
www.melisa.org

DAN Doctors treating autism are still finding high amounts of mercury and other toxic metals in children being tested and treated for autism. (Yahoo Groups Autism Forums, Autism Research Institute, www.autism.com) In a very large survey of parents of autistic children, metals detoxification was found to be by far the most effective treatment and had the least adverse effects of any treatment. http://www.autism.com/treatable/form34qr.htm

Because of high exposures from “modern amalgams”, dental amalgam is the largest source of mercury in sewers in the U.S. and a major source in water bodies and fish. The average person with several amalgams excretes into sewers approximately 30 micrograms of mercury per day, exposures far above health guidelines and resulting high high levels of mercury in all sewers and sewer sludge. Because of methylation of mercury in sewer sludge by soil bacteria and outgasing of mercury when the sun shines along with high mercury emissions from crematoria dental amalgams, the high levels of mercury in amalgam also are a significant source of air mercury emissions.
www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html
thimerosal still in vaccines
Vaccine Brand Name Manufacturer Thimerosal Concentration1 Mercury mcg/0.5 ml
DTaP Tripedia sanofi pasteur * *

DTaP-Hib TriHIBit sanofi pasteur * *

DTwP All Products ----- .01% --------- 25
DT Diphtheria & Tetanus Toxoids Adsorbed USP
multi-dose sanofi pasteur --- .01% -------------- 25
single dose * --- - *

Td DECAVAC sanofi pasteur * -------------------- *
*

Tetanus and Diphtheria Toxoids Adsorbed sanofi pasteur * *

Tetanus Toxoid Tetanus Toxoid Adsorbed USP sanofi pasteur .01% -- 25
Tetanus Toxoid Adsorbed Adult Use ----.01% -----------25
Booster .01% ----------25
Hep A-B Twinrix GlaxoSmithKline ------* ---- *

Influenza 2007/8 Formula Fluarix GlaxoSmithKline * *

FluLaval GlaxoSmithKline ----- .01% ------------------25
Fluvirin Novartis ----- .01% --- 24.5
Fluzone 5 mL vial sanofi pasteur .01% -------------- 25
MENOMUNE-A/C/Y/W-135 multi-dose sanofi pasteur .01% 25
single dose * *

1. A concentration of 1:10,000 is equivalent to a 0.01% concentration. Thimerosal is approximately 50% Hg by weight. A 1:10,000 concentration contains 25 micrograms of Hg per 0.5 mL.
2. A previously marketed lyophilized preparation contained 0.005% thimerosal.

* This product should be considered equivalent to thimerosal-free products. This vaccine may contain trace amounts (<0.3 mcg) of mercury left after post-production thimerosal removal; these amounts have no biological effect. JAMA 1999;282(18) and JAMA 2000;283(16).

[philb]

28. Now that I've demonstrated what's wrong with your study; I don't think you can do same for mine-

whats wrong with the many peer-reviewed studies at: www.flcv.com/kidshg.html that document that my hypothesis is true
and likewise supported by these: www.flcvcom/tmlbn.html

You can't demonstrate that either of the study arguments aren't valid or that the hypotheses aren't true.
If my arguments aren't valid. It should be easy to prove so.

[varkam]

46. Talking to yourself again, eh philb?

:rofl:

[philb]

30. More on documented corruption at the CDC- whose study/data confirmed autism/vaccine connection

Mark Geier, M.D., Ph.D., is president of the Genetic Centers of America. He and his son, David Geier, president of Medcon Inc., are consultants on vaccine cases. David Geier tells Insight, "What happened here is Dr. Verstraeten goes to the Institute of Medicine and says that he looked at it in one California HMO and it was statistical and he saw the effect, and then he did it in another California HMO and it was statistical and he saw the effect, then he went to Harvard Pilgrim HMO and he didn't see the effect. The IOM said it's biologically plausible, but the epidemiology is mixed and therefore we're not sure."

"In my opinion," explains Mark Geier, "if they had seen clear epidemiology they would have recommended the immediate removal of thimerosal and hundreds of children would have been saved. But Verstraeten went to the one state in the country where the percentage of autism was the lowest. According to the U.S. Department of Education the average increase in autism was 400 percent, and every state in the union had at least a 100 percent increase. But Harvard Pilgrim had just a 10 percent increase."

"We went to Atlanta," he continues, "to the CDC, and looked at the VSD data. There is thimerosal-containing DTaP and thimerosal-free DTaP, so we asked a question: Among children that got a minimum of either three consecutive thimerosal-containing DTaPs or three consecutive thimerosal-free DTaPs, was there a difference in the number of autism cases in the two groups? We found mega differences. More than 20 times higher. The rate of autism in the children that got more than three doses of thimerosal-containing DTaP vaccines was much, much higher. Almost all the children that have autism in that group were the ones that got the thimerosal-containing DTaP vaccine. The more thimerosal the greater the cases of autism."

Mark Geier says, "Believe us, there is no scientific issue here. This is fraud. The CDC and the FDA know what is happening. They just can't admit it because it is one of the worst things ever to have happened to this United States. If a terrorist had done this, we wouldn't attack them, we'd nuke them. We're talking about one in eight children in the U.S. that currently are in special education, and that number is going to change to about one in five. What percentage of our young population can we destroy before we realize how serious this is?"

Lyn Redwood, a registered nurse, mother of an autistic child and president and cofounder of <http://www.SafeMinds.orgwww.SafeMinds.org (Sensible Action for Ending Mercury-Induced Neurological Disorders), a nonprofit organization dedicated to ending devastation caused by the needless use of mercury in medicines, tells Insight that "there are so many problems with the study, but over time you can see how all the manipulations of the data slowly bring down the signals for neurological disorders. I think they were trying to get lower numbers. It must be very hard to admit that a program that was designed to eradicate infectious disease has resulted in an epidemic of a whole new kind of disease. But to think that we weren't given a choice when the regulators and manufacturers knew these products contained mercury is inconceivable."

Redwood says with a sigh, "On a scale of one to 10, I give the CDC study a big fat zero. I think it started out good, but when they saw the early numbers it scared the hell out of them. I don't have any faith in the CDC doing a decent study of this matter. It's like having the tobacco industry monitor cigarettes for safety. From a parent's perspective and from a health-care professional's perspective it's maddening that we can't get products that are safe, and yet we're forced by law to use them. They need to just get the thimerosal out. It's barbaric."

[varkam]

43. I stopped reading at "Mark Geier".

I'd be surprised you'd stoop so low to try and prove your point...but then again, it is you.

[philb]

44. MD and PhD and lots of research experience, publications

I've looked at the studies and don't see anything wrong with them. They are peer-reviewed.

I don't think you can demonstrate that they are wrong.
I know they are consistent with all of the other credible studies that I've seen.
www.flcv.com/kidshg.html

[varkam]

45. Improper appeal to authority.

Define "credible", philb. I'd love to hear what you think that word means - because referencing the Geier's to support your beliefs doesn't strike me as "credible". Unless, of course, you would define using your own family on the IRB, pushing a therapy that has killed autistic children, plagarizing your papers, and twisting your own data as "credible".

[philb]

47. I'm not the one that appeals to authority; I've supplied peer-reviewd studies and explained the mech

mechanisms by which vaccines/mercury/toxic metals have been documented to cause autism- along with many thousands of clinical cases and medical tests on real autistic children that support the findings of the peer-reviewed studies.


The studies in the medical literature have documented some of the mechanisms by which vaccines/mercury cause autism

Immune reactivity/autoimmune effects

(Vaccine Induced Demyelination (or other mercury source)
http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-demyelination.htm
http://www.melisa.org/autism.php

Auto-Immunity, Vaccines and Autism
http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-auto-immunity.htm#auto

The beneficial effect of amalgam replacement on health in patients with autoimmunity. Prochazkova J, Sterzl I, Kucerova H, Bartova J, Stejskal VD; Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2004 Jun;25(3):211-8.
http://www.nel.edu/pdf_/25_3/NEL250304A07_Prochazkova_.pdf


Hormonal/androgenic effects (www.flcv.com/autismhg.html and www.flcv.com/kidshg.html)

Neurotoxic effects of mercury/aluminum/lead/arsenic/antimony (www.flcv.com/tmlbn.html)

Schizophrenic effects of enzymatic blockages of the enzymes processing glutena and casein(milk products) that result in high levels of morphine like substances in the blood of autistic, schizophrenic, ADHD, children.
(see Univ. of Florida Medical School study- www.flcv.com/kidshg.html)

[varkam]

48. You *just* did an improper appeal to authority *two posts ago*!

It seems you have some pretty severe short-term memory problems. I hear chelation therapy can fix that...

[philb]

49. I clearly pointed out that I'm using medical study doc. of mechanisms of causality that has been

provided, plus the thousands of clinical cases of treatment with hundreds of thousands of medical lab tests which are consistent with everything that I've said plus with the peer-reviewed medical studies that I've supplied, demonstrating both the mechanisms by which vaccines/mercury have been shown to cause autism and other autoimmune conditions.

Although its clear that I've supplied the most peer-reveiwed studies that document my case and no one has been able to demostrate otherwise, I've clearly documented that all studies suggested as supporting you case were poorly done by researchers who hadn't done their homework and weren't familiar with the literature or how to do a valid scientific study. All have been demonstrated to not validly support what you claim they do. I've provided the documentation of that.

If you disagree, provide some valid evidence that what I said or my peer-reviewed references are wrong. I know that you can't. We've been there before. We have years of real experience both in the research and interacting with the clinics treating these kids, and with the conference findings. You clearly don't appear to have any such. Are you claiming otherwise?

[varkam]

51. No. What you said is that Geier is an MD and a PhD.

The implication there is that I should listen to what he has to say since he's really really smart. Unfortunately, just cause someone has funny letters after their name doesn't mean that they get a pass insofar as being ethical in conducting research or writing up papers - which the Geier's have not been.

I've repeatedly pointed out problems with your references, Bernie. Repeatedly. As in over and over and over. All you do though is stick your fingers in your ears and repeat the refrain that "I've cited TRILLIONS of peer-reviewed sources!!11!" Except that you haven't. Many of your sources are not peer-reviewed. The ones that are peer-reviewed are either (a) seriously out-dated or (b) totally irrelevant to the claims that you are making. It is as if you are hiding behind the whole "peer-reviewed" thing.

As a totally serious scientist person (which I'm totally sure that you are) you should understand that just because something is peer-reviewed doesn't mean that it is a good study (just like funny little letters after Mark Geier's name doesn't make him a good scientist).

If you read all that, I want you to take a moment and think seriously about what I said.

[cosmik debris]

54. One of the many major problems with your nonsense

Is that you don't provide dose information.

What is the dose required to cause autism? You don't know.

What is the maximum tolerated dose? You don't know.

Why doesn't the same dose cause autism in all children who receive that dose? You don't know. But it certainly indicates that it is not what you say it is.

You claim that the cause of autism is deterministic, but you have no dose data to prove that.

And if those questions were answered, then you would have to shut down you chelation business because nobody would be buying your services. You and all you quack "peers" would have to practice real medicine for a change.

[philb]

62. I've provided info about all of that; you just haven't gotten around to look at what I've provided

The effects of toxic exposures don't have a required dose, there is no such thing, it depends on the invidual susceptablity and the total synergistic exposures, I've provided a review paper on that several times. www.flcv.com/suscept.html
Some of the susceptability factors include ability to excrete mercury and toxic metals
whether blood allele type APOE-4 or 3 or 2; type 4s can't excrete mercury or metals, accumulate and are the ones most likely to get autism, ADHD, other developmental effects.
Also the kids with autism are found to have high levels of toxic metals from other sources that also are a synergistic factor in how much metals from vaccines needed to result in a chronic condition; lots of the kids have high lead or arsenic (because they all have exposures and can't excrete) very many have also had high antimony from ScotchGuard in the kids pajamas and bed sheets,etc. 3M shut down their best selling product ScotchGuard because it was a factor in so many of these kids autism, ADHD, eczema, etc. But not as big a factor as the vaccines.

Another susceptability factor documented by the Pfeiffer Center in Chicago who have been working with lots of these kids for a long time is Metallothionein enzymatic blockage/deficiency which also affects the kids ability to excrete, clear the metals. Mercury blocks a lot of enzymatic processes that are essential to the body functioning, plus also blocks the sulfur processing enzymatic processes ; mercury has affinity for the sulfhydrol SH radical in lots of amino acids, body building blocks, etc. Body gets toxic metabolites rather than what it needs; likewise mercury (and other toxic metals) block the Krebs energy cycle and blood heme process resulting in porphyrin wastes in the urine instead of the ATP or heme the body needs. This is why the Doctors treating autism use the urine fractionated porphyrin test to see which processes are blocked and the causes of the blockages to know how to treat them. Likewise regarding the sulfur they use a test like the comprehensive liver detox test from Genova Lab to determine the problems in the function of the type I and type II detox systems and regarding sulfur(free cysteine level in the blood, blockage processes,etc.) Great Plains Lab has another test commonly used. This is all found in www.flcv.com/kidshg.html which I've posted

Another mechanism of causality which I've posted lots of documentation on is immune reactivity. Only those most immune reactive to thimerosal or mercury or ( ) with expsures are acutely affected resulting in autoimmune autism case http://www.melisa.org/autism.php for example (blood immune reactivity test:MELISA)
But there are also other immune reactivity cases from a different pathway affected, antibody to basic meylin protein in brain,
Vaccine Induced Demyelination (or other mercury source)
http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-demyelination.htm

Auto-Immunity, Vaccines and Autism
http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/vaccines-auto-immunity.htm#auto

Another mechanism is viral related blockages of digestive/intestinal systems which a group of these kids have (from live measles virus in MMR or clostridium bacteria or other viral source after immune system was weakened by high mercury/metal exposures and couln't deal with the viral or bacterial exposure) www.flv.com/kidshg.html

Another mechanism of causality is the blockage of the enzymatic processes that deal with gluten(wheat,etc.) or casein (milk). Studies at medical schools like U. of Florida (Dr. Cade, Shands) have found that mercury and such block the enzymatic processes involved in processing gluten and casein, dumping morphine like substances into the blood which cause schizophrenic symptoms in autistics, schizophrenics, ADHD, etc. Thats found by the doctor treating the kids in most cases,which why they are put on gluten and wheat free diets, they can't process them.

So your questions are not useful, practical questions in knowing how much exposure is needed to result in autism or any condition.

Just shows you don't have much practical experience in research or treatment of such conditions, though you seem more knowledgable than some of your friends. These are questions some would ask who've taken classes but not really practiced in the real world.

The kids all have individual susceptabilites to all of these causality mechanisms, and all have different synergistic exposure levels of the various toxics involved in their condition. And autism is not a uniform condition, its a combination of symptoms related to all of these causality mechanisms; some have all, some have several, some have only one or two.
The dose of all of these needed to cause the various levels of the conditions they have are individual, depending on all of these.
Your questions just aren't useful or relevant to any type of toxic related condition.

But the doctors at the autism clinics treating the kids do lots of tests of these mechanisms and treat what is found. The treatments are fairly individual depending on which of these various problems/mechanisms are involved. But the kids fall into groups that have a lot of commonality in causes, treatments. And very high levels of mercury/toxic metals are found by the tests in virtually all, and lots of chelation rounds needed to get the metals down, at which time lots of these various problems start getting better and the kids physical problems and behavioral problems improve. Many have returned to school after treatment, some are up to their age group in school already. As the big Autism Assoc. survey of parents has noted: majority are signif. improved after chelation and many are fully recoved, others in process.
Parent Ratings of Behavorial Effects of Biomedical Interventions
http://www.autism.com/treatable/form34qr.htm

73% signif. better after chelation/detox treatment

[cosmik debris]

63. You have an unhealthy obsession with this issue.

You are obsessed with the fear of mercury.

You compulsively re-post the same links over and over.

You appear to have lost touch with reality.

You really should seek help.

[restlessnative77]

59. hey that's not nice, that's just wrong you leave those government paid scientists alone!LOL

Well, clearly, there are many people on this forum who are blind and quite possibly well paid to be just that. Well I am outnumbered. Just what do your "credible sources" tell you about 1 in 150 kids having neurological damage, autoimmune issues, cognitive deficit, language delays, or no language at all!!
What theories have they come up with? I mean excluding of coarse the ever so convenient and popular bad genes explanation, and unknown environmental factors that I notice they are in no rush to identify, because that would be inconvenient for a whole other powerful industry, and nobody wants to change a thing,, things are nice and lucrative the way they are, wake up people,

[philb]

64. See posts 51,54,62 for examples of what you are talking about- people who've taken courses but have

no real experience treating the synergistic causality mechanisms of kids with different susceptabilities and with different combinations of synergistic toxic exposures. This is all dealt with the the medical literature individually, but the combination, synergistic effects you get in the real world arent covered in most course work or studies.

[chicagomd]

67. Please apply tinfoil hat before posting.

People who disagree with you are getting paid by who? The governemnt? The men in black?

Your theory of convenience is one of massive conspiracy. I guess it is more convenient to just make shit up and ignore people when they have counter arguements than actually change your view of things. What do they put in the water down there in Florida that makes people like you and philb?

[xchrom]

69. ...

:applause: