Failing on purpose

[HysteryDiagnosis]

Must read entire article at: http://www.lef.org/featured-articles/Rebuttal-to-Allegation-That-Certain-Vitamins-May-Shorten-Lifespan.htm

Outlandishly low and high potencies evaluated

As has been the case of previous studies conducted by mainstream doctors, the potencies of the nutrients evaluated in this negative report are far different than what knowledgeable health conscious consumers take on a daily basis.

This report condemning supplements claimed that vitamin A caused a 16% increased risk of dying. The vitamin A potencies given to study subjects ranged from 1,333 IU to 200,000 IU a day, or taken every other day, or in one case, ingested just once! Yes, a trial used to vilify this nutrient gave the participants one dose of vitamin A. When these nursing home subjects did not show greater survival benefits, the authors of this negative report blamed the single dose of vitamin A for the deaths.

We don’t know of anyone who actually takes their vitamin A in these kinds of doses, but these were the very studies used to assassinate vitamin A.

This negative report also claimed a 4% increased risk of dying in those who took vitamin E. One might speculate that the failure to supplement with gamma tocopherol may have caused this mortality increase (we discuss more about this later).

The stark reality is that the potencies of alpha tocopherol vitamin E evaluated in the negative report ranged from 10 IU to 5000 IU, which of course has nothing to do with what informed consumers are actually taking. In fact, 10 IU of vitamin E does not even meet the daily minimum requirement for this nutrient. Nonetheless, the authors of this negative report included this study with a host of others to attack vitamin E.

For beta-carotene, the authors claimed a 7% increased risk of death. Doses evaluated ranged from 2000 IU to 83,350 IU. We don’t know of anyone taking this high dose of beta-carotene, but these studies were nonetheless used to further frighten the public against this supplement.

Study periods evaluated ranged from 28 days to 12 years. The authors apparently thought that study periods as short as 28-days were long enough to include in their attack against certain vitamins.

As you will read next, these details about potencies have little meaning when one learns of the study-selection bias that resulted in 91% of evaluable vitamin studies being omitted from the analysis.

[Orrex]

1. Consider

We don’t know of anyone who actually takes their vitamin A in these kinds of doses, but these were the very studies used to assassinate vitamin A.

Similarly outrageous megadoses of aspartame and saccharine are administered to rats in order to bring about various cancers and other disorders, yet foes of these products are quick to declare that these sweeteners (and similarly tested substances) have been proven to be detrimental to human health.

I share your concern about the too-brief study period, but your objection about mega-dosing needs to be applied to other studies structured in the same way.

[hvn_nbr_2]

2. The legitimacy of megadoses of X as cause of Y varies with X and Y

I seem to remember (from way back when it seemed that Canadian lab mice could prove everything to be carcinogenic) that when Y was cancer, there was legitimacy in those kinds of studies. Maybe some of the more knowledgeable people here can correct if I'm wrong on this, but I think the reason that cancer was different than other things was that cancer involves a particular kind of mutated/zapped gene in the cell. Therefore, larger doses of something that could cause the mutation simply multiplied the chances of getting enough cases to be statistically significant. But most things that studies look for, to find harm or benefit, aren't based on causing mutations in genes, so megadoses of other things may or may not be legitimate.

In the case of this study of vitamins, including that one study where they gave a one-time dose of 200,000 IU of vitamin A just seems to me to be stupendously stupid. (Actually, it seems more likely that the study had some data that fit their agenda. If this is the same study that I think I read about elsewhere, the particular researchers involved have strong reputations for being rabidly anti-supplement crusaders. Though their credentials are fine, they work with an agenda.)

[Celebration]

3. what REALLY gets me

Is the people that try to do mega analysis on all these studies, with all sorts of different dosages for this, and try to come to a "conclusion". Of course some studies are designed to fail--I remember there was one on St. John's Wort that was supposedly designed to fail, by having outcome measures that were off or something.

Most everyone probably needs different dosages of various vitamins, which is why this got me pretty excited--

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x36434

[hvn_nbr_2]

5. The St. Johns wort study ... designed to fail

Herbalists had said for a long time that St. Johns wort was good for mild to moderate depression but not for severe depression. In Europe, it's been used by the medical profession for years for mild to moderate depression only, never for severe depression. So, when the U.S. researchers decided to do the "big, definitive settle-this-question-once-and-for-all" study, they limited the study to--I'm sure you'll never guess--severe depression only! As a result, they got the headlines that they wanted in the popular press: "St. Johns wort worthless for depression." The honest headlines would have been: "We just proved what everybody already knew and we want you to believe that we proved something else."

It's a bit like the echinacea study where they didn't even use the right species of echinacea. Designed to fail.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

13. Yes, exactly, designed to fail... and when there is evidence that

a combination of various supplements or nutrients have beneficial effects on ailment XYZ they will test each one alone against XYZ to "prove" that there is nothing to it. They are not well versed in the synergistic effects of multiple substances but have no problem doling out several other chemicals to deal with the effects of the primary offending chemical. That's a form of synergy but we won't talk about that.

[trotsky]

4. Hey, it's your good old advertisement website again!

And in a total shocker, they link to their "Top 10" supplement list which in an incredible coincidence, YOU CAN BUY FROM THEM!

Awesome! I can totally see why you distrust "big pharma" since they do things for profit, and trust LEF which uhh.. does things... for... uhh.. less profit, right?

[hvn_nbr_2]

6. I guess your point is...

If they determine that something is useful and important, then they should NOT sell it. Also, they should sell only things that they determine are not useful or not important.

[trotsky]

7. Naw, that's not my point.

My point is about double standards employed by certain people. Profit is supposedly the main reason why you can't trust big pharma. Yet places that profit (generously) from selling supplements are never questioned.

[hvn_nbr_2]

18. Okay.

Actually, I think you're supposed to capitalize Big Pharma. :)

I see a lot of double standards, over-generalization, over-simplification, exaggeration and distortion of others' views and motives, and plain old distrust on both sides in this forum. I also see believe-anything gullibility, mind-blowing ignorance of science and logic, and snarky self-righteous know-it-all-ism, those last three tending to come predominantly from one side or the other. I also see those last three being projected onto whole groups of the other side whenever one or two people exhibit them.

Regarding money, profit, profit-seeking, and plain old overwhelming greed, I think that there really isn't any comparison between the supplement industry and the pharmaceutical industry. They are orders of magnitude different, and I say that not as a figure of speech but as a mathematical statement.

The revenue of the entire alternative health industry (including supplements, chiropractic, massage, herbs, Chinese medicine, acupuncture etc.) is less than the revenue of numerous single drugs. I don't have figures for profits, but I would expect that the entire profits of the supplement industry are far, far less than the profits from any of the blockbuster drugs that are still under patent protection. Simply put, nobody is getting rich selling vitamin C in competition with probably 1000 other brands of vitamin C. The profit on a single tablet of Viagra is probably greater than the profit on several cases of vitamin C.

As for greed, I would steal and modify Baron Acton's statement and say, "Money corrupts and big-time money corrupts big-time." I have never heard of a single case of a supplement company knowing or having very good evidence that their product was killing hundreds or thousands of people and they covered it up and kept selling it. In just the last few years we've had several instances of that from the pharmaceutical industry. Overall, I would say that the vast majority of evil attributable to greed falls on the pharmaceutical side.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

8. They do things that are proper. They do not poison people. Your

heroes on the other hand..... well let's just say.

www.Iatrogenic.org

And just looky here.... Rexall spilling the beans on the drugcos in yet another way

http://www.rexall.ca/Pharmacy_Counter/Nutrient_Depletion.aspx


Condition: Heart Disease, Parkinson’s Disease
Medication Examples: Lipitor, Levodopa, Mirapex
Recommendation: Coenzyme Q10

In some countries like Japan, heart disease is treated with prescription drugs as well as with coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), an essential chemical in our cells that decreases as we age.

Some people with heart disease have lower amounts of it and studies show that it’s also depleted in people with Parkinson's disease.

CoQ10 is a safe and well-tolerated supplement. It produces minimal and infrequent side effects (which may include loss of appetite, diarrhea, or nausea).

Women who are pregnant or breast-feeding should not take CoQ10, since more studies are required to determine its safety for them.

Ask your Rexall™ pharmacist for more details and to recommend a suitable dose for you to take.

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Condition: Birth Control (Use of Contraceptives)
Medication Examples: Alesse, Trycyclen, Evra
Recommendation: Daily Multivitamin

Even if you’re eating properly, birth control pills can deplete folic acid and other important vitamins and minerals from your body.

Loss of certain vitamins in women who take birth control pills has led to problems such as abnormal cells in the cervix. It may also increase the risk of depression, anxiety and a lower sex drive.

If you’re taking birth control pills, you should take a high-quality multivitamin every day. You may also require additional supplements. Please speak with your Rexall™ pharmacist today so you can reduce health risks caused by nutrient deficiency.

Before you stop taking birth control pills, be sure to talk to your family doctor or Rexall™ pharmacist.

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Condition: Infections, Diarrhea
Medication Examples: Penicillin, Amoxicillin
Recommendation: Probiotics

Antibiotic prescription medications are designed to remove the "bad" bacteria that cause infection, but a side effect of that is that they also remove the "good" bacteria. With less "good" bacteria there’s an increased risk of diarrhea, bloating and, for women, vaginal yeast infections.

To help prevent and treat these side effects, your Rexall™ pharmacist can recommend a natural, safe and effective supplement called a probiotic.

Probiotics are made up of a blend of "good" bacteria that are normally present in your body. These "good" bacteria prevent "bad" bacteria from growing and causing infection and disease. Probiotics also help with digestion, produce some vitamins, and help break down the cholesterol in your food.

Probiotic supplements have to be taken at the right time of day because your antibiotic medication can destroy probiotics as well. Talk with your Rexall™ pharmacist to determine when you should take your antibiotic medicine and when you should take your probiotic supplement.

If you do have diarrhea it’s important that you don’t try to treat it with any pink bismuth liquid (e.g. Pepto-Bismol®) or diarrhea tablets before speaking with your family doctor or Rexall™ pharmacist.

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Condition: Ulcers
Medication Examples: Nexium, Losec, Zantac
Recommendation: Daily Multivitamin

Anti-ulcer medications may lead to depletion of certain vitamins and minerals. These drugs work by lowering the amount of stomach acid, which can relieve the pain associated with heartburn, acid indigestion, and ulcers. However, stomach acid is important to help with the absorption of many nutrients.

There are 2 kinds of medication normally used to treat ulcers:

1) H-2 receptor antagonists that include:

* cimetidine (Tagamet)
* ranitidine (Zantac)
* famotidine (Pepcid)
* nizatadine (Axid)

These medications may deplete vitamin B12, folic acid, vitamin D, calcium, iron, and zinc.

2) Proton pump inhibitors that include:

* omeprazole (Losec)
* lansoprazole (Prevacid)
* esomeprazole (Nexium)
* pantoprazole (Pantaloc)
* rabeprazole (Pariet)

These medications may deplete vitamin B12.

The depletion of these nutrients can have the following effects:

1. B12: anemia, tiredness, weakness, and increased cardiovascular disease risk
2. Folic acid: birth defects, cervical dysplasia (abnormal cell growth on the surface of the cervix), anemia, and cardiovascular disease
3. Vitamin D: skeletal problems such as osteoporosis, muscle weakness, tooth decay, and hearing loss
4. Calcium: osteoporosis, heart and blood pressure irregularities, and tooth decay.
5. Iron: hair loss, brittle nails, and anemia, with accompanying feelings of weakness, fatigue, and low energy
6. Zinc: slow wound healing, loss of sense of smell and taste, and lower immunity

Nutritional supplements can help prevent or overcome medication-induced nutrient depletion. In many cases, this can increase the effectiveness of a medication, reduce side effects, and contribute to a longer, healthier life.

So talk to your family doctor or Rexall™ pharmacist to determine what nutritional supplements you can take to offset the depletion.

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Condition: Epilepsy
Medication Examples: Dilantin, Tegretol, Epival
Recommendation: Daily Multivitamin

Because of the way your body processes some anti-epileptic medications, some of them may lead to depletion of certain vitamins and minerals:

* Phenobarbital can deplete vitamin D, vitamin K, folic acid, biotin, and calcium
* Phenytoin (Dilantin) can deplete vitamin D, vitamin K, vitamin B12, vitamin B1, folic acid, biotin, and calcium
* Carbamazepine (Tegretol) can deplete vitamin D, folic acid, and biotin
* Primidone (Mysoline) can deplete vitamin D, vitamin K, folic acid, biotin, and calcium
* Valproic acid (Depakene) can deplete folic acid, carnitine, copper, selenium, and zinc

These depletions can have the following effects:

1. Vitamin D: osteoporosis, hearing loss, and muscle weakness
2. Calcium: osteoporosis, hear/blood pressure irregularities, and tooth decay
3. Folic acid: birth defects, cervical dysplasia, anemia, and cardiovascular disease
4. Vitamin K: blood coagulation and skeletal problems
5. Biotin: hair loss, depression, cardiac irregularities, and dermatitis
6. Vitamin B12: anemia, tiredness, weakness, and increased cardiovascular disease risk
7. Vitamin B1: depression, irritability, memory loss, muscle weakness, and edema
8. Carnitine: muscle weakness, cramps, and fatigue

Nutritional supplements can help prevent or overcome medication-induced nutrient depletion. In many cases, this can increase the effectiveness of a medication, reduce side effects, and contribute to a longer, healthier life.

So talk to your family doctor or Rexall™ Family Pharmacist to determine what nutritional supplements you can take to offset the depletion.

[trotsky]

9. Oh but of course.

"Your" profit-makers are saints.

"Mine" (they aren't, BTW) are devils.

Black or white. Good or evil. It always comes back to that, doesn't it? Maybe someday you'll see the shades of gray the rest of us do.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. ...

I see shades of grey just fine. You??

[trotsky]

11. Sure you do. n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

12. Well I do. n/t

[trotsky]

14. Alright, name some "big pharma" products that you use or can recommend.

I take fish oil occasionally. I also take a calcium and vitamin D supplement on the days I don't drink much milk.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

15. Tagamet for cold sores. It is a T helper cell agonist, see this person's

experience, note this is not a clinical trial.

http://www.drugtalk.com/cimetidine/drugthread.php/t-177949.html
In my recent alternative medicine newsletter i read that Tagamet (Cimetidine) can help cut the lenth of a cold sore outbreak. Apparantly, the cimetidine works to trick your immune system into thinking it is healthy. When a cold sore begins, I take 200mg of tagamet morning noon and evening, then 400 mg at bedtime. My cold sores last about 3 days instead of 7+. It has also been helpful in cutting down on the length of time for my chronic shingles outbreaks. I thought this was great considering the cost of some of the prescription meds out there. Tagamet can be bought at any grocery or drugstore. Hope this helps others as it has helped me! :bouncing:




http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/1989/ATN08005.html
We spoke with S. Jeanne Bramhall, M.D. who conducted her own informal cimetidine monitoring project with five patients in Seattle. All five patients experienced relief from a number of AIDS or ARC symptoms, apparently after several weeks of Tagamet, 300 mg three times daily. Here is a brief summary of the results:

Patient 1: After three weeks on Tagamet and imipramine, her fatigue, night sweats and lymphadenopathy disappeared completely. These symptoms returned when the patient stopped the Tagamet, and disappeared again when she resumed. Her T-cell ratio returned to normal and the symptoms did not recur when she discontinued the Tagamet after a second three-month trial. This patient has since been lost to follow-up.

Patient 2: Experienced relief of disseminated herpes lesions and thrush after two weeks of Tagamet, and after three months a diagnosed Kaposi's sarcoma lesion in his mouth vanished. His T- cell ratio was improving after eight months, and he had added amitriptyline, acyclovir and ketoconazole to his medications. He also wanted to start AZT, but was apprehensive about the potential for cimetidine to increase the toxicity of certain drugs. To avoid this he replaced Tagamet with ranitidine (Zantac), a related drug which studies found somewhat as active as an immunomodulator but less likely to potentiate the toxicity of other drugs. After switching he suffered several bouts with a persistent staph infection and two episodes of PCP. He was also lost to follow-up.

Patient 3: Started Tagamet after hospitalization for pneumocystis. He noticed increased energy levels and diminished oral thrush and enrolled in a local AZT study. After three months the AZT had caused anemia severe enough to warrant a transfusion (bone marrow toxicity is not unusual with AZT but perhaps the potential for toxicity was enhanced with Tagamet). He elected to discontinue both medications and after a month the anemia was corrected. He now takes no medication other than Chinese herbs, but seven months after the Tagamet he has seen four KS lesions subside and has gained 25 pounds.

Patient 4: After a month on Tagamet, his persistent leukoplakia, intermittent fevers and diarrhea all subsided. After five months, he discontinued the Tagamet and megavitamins, thinking that they were causing a recurrence of diarrhea. At the time he was lost to follow-up, he was not on any medication and had remained symptom-free.

Patient 5: Fatigue decreased dramatically after one week on Tagamet, but oral thrush persisted until he increased the dose to 400 mg three times a day for a week. He discontinued Tagamet and continues to be in good health.

[trotsky]

16. So you recommend that over any other "supplement" product?

Do you yourself take it?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

17. I do take it. However, if I had this on hand, I would put it down in

favor of these beauties. I need to get some in hand soon... in the far east, this sort of supplement is advised for cancer patients, including those receiving standard care if memory serves.

[gorang]

19. thrush

I absolutely can't stand oral thrush , so i can empathize with you there!

Strangely, i've never had a problem with cold sores, maybe when iw as younger i got them more. My gf seems to get them a lot but she never passes them to me even when we kiss.

[hedgehog]

20. While I can disagree with some of the statements in the link

("high saturated fat diets increase heart attack risk." not proven, IMO), I can agree with the premise that a lot of studies out there are flawed. Most scientists set out to prove something, and it is a human tendency to design experiments to get the desired result. I've read enough about various dietary studies to be skeptical of all of them. For example, the recent Harvard study "proving" that all diets are equally effective? If you get past the headlines, you discover several facts:

- the so-called "low-fat" and "low-carbohydrate" diets used in the studies weren't strict enough to qualify as low-fat or low-carb for advocates of those diets. The authors of the study assumed that low-fat and low-carb are unhealthy, so they modified the diets.

- there was little control over what people ate, so in the end people who were in theory on four different diets were eating the same things in the same amounts!

- in the end, the people in the study lost relatively little weight and then re-gained half of it with in a year, so the actual result is that all the diets studied were equally ineffective in reducing weight!

There's good science being done, but we can't afford to accept any results or conclusions blindly.