Experts to Discuss One Puzzling Autism Case, as a Second Case Has Arisen

[n2doc]

By GARDINER HARRIS
Published: June 28, 2008
Federal health officials on Sunday will call together some of the world’s leading experts on an obscure disease to discuss the controversial case of a 9-year-old girl from Athens, Ga., who became autistic after receiving numerous vaccinations.


But the government has so far kept quiet a second case that some say is more disturbing and more relevant to the meeting.

On Jan. 11, a 6-year-old girl from Colorado received FluMist, a flu vaccine, and about a week later “became weak with multiple episodes of falling to ground” and “difficulty walking,” according to a case report filed with federal health officials and obtained by The New York Times.

The girl grew increasingly weak and feverish and “became more limp, appears sleepy, acts as if drunk,” the report said. She was hospitalized and underwent surgery and was finally withdrawn from life support. She died on April 5, according to the report.

more:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/health/28vaccine.html

[varkam]

1. Before this one gets out of hand...

Is influenza vaccine that does not contain thimerosal as a preservative available this flu season (2007-08)?

At the current time, sanofi pasteur is projecting that 10 million to 12 million doses of thimerosal-free vaccine in pre-filled syringes or vials will be produced for the 2007-08 influenza season. The majority of this vaccine will be in 0.25 mL syringes (indicated for ages 6-35 months) with the remainder in 0.5 mL vials or syringes (indicated for ages 36 months and older). MedImmune is projecting up to 7 million doses of thimerosal-free nasal vaccine, FluMist, will be produced for the 2007-08 season. In addition, the single dose syringe preparation of CSL Biotherapies’ product, Afluria, is thimerosal-free and can be used in persons 18 years of age and older. Finally, both Novartis and GlaxoSmithKline are producing preservative-free (trace thimerosal) influenza vaccines this season. Novartis’s Fluvirin (single dose syringe preparations) can be used in persons 4 years of age and older and GSK’s Fluarix can be used in adults 18 years of age and older.

Source

In other words, there is no possible way that thimerosal could have been the culprit in the second case, despite whatever noise the mercury-militia might try to make.

[cosmik debris]

2. It must be the monkey virus

Left over from the 1950's polio vaccine.

:sarcasm:

[kimmerspixelated]

3. It could very well be!

Unfortunately! All one has to do is look at any vaccine ingredients list to become completely appalled! Completely! Sorry no link.

[cosmik debris]

6. You're not serious are you?

I apologize if that seems insulting, but really, you're not serious are you?

[varkam]

9. It contains teh anti-freeze!!one!

:hi:

[TZ]

11. There are NO PRESERVATIVES IN FLU MIST

Its a straight attenuated virus. The worst you can get from it..is get sick with the flu.
Thats it, I've proved it the flu causes autism!
I know whats in vaccines and it is so small as to be meaningless. You get more "chemicals" from breathing the air. AND they don't STAY in your system.
Ugh. Seriously, you need to actually read science.
I think you've ingested too much dihydrogen monoxide for your own good.

[varkam]

15. My god...my energy drink has dihydrogen monoxide in it!

What I am going to dooooo?!

[cosmik debris]

22. Here is the MSDS for DHMO

http://www.dhmo.org/msds/MSDS-DHMO-2007-ChemSafe.pdf

I hope it helps.

And here is the FAQ

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

[cornermouse]

5. mercury-militia?

Do you have an autistic child?

[varkam]

7. No.

But I know plenty of people who do, and who likewise refer to people who zealously believe in the mercury-autism hypothesis as "the mercury militia". Care to refute what I said, or would you rather continue down the road to Lameadhomville?

[Orrex]

10. What difference could that possibly make? The facts are the facts.

Regardless of whether you or varkam or Jenny McCarthy has an autistic, your question is not relevant. The vaccines in question did not contain the demon substance so ofted decried by those who subscribe to the ill-supported belief that Thimerosal causes autism.

It is, frankly, boorish of you to ask varkam that question so pointedly, because it's none of your damned business. Nor is it relevant in the slightest; you are simply using an appeal to uncritical emotionalism in an attempt to undermine his quite reasonable (and correct) point.

[varkam]

16. Yeah, what you said.

Personally, I like "lameadhomville" better, but to each their own I suppose :D

[cornermouse]

19. Yet another one who is so eager

that they don't bother to read long enough to see that I never mentioned thimerosol in either of my replies. Not once.

And since you brought it up... As far as the term mercury-militia is concerned, it is a term that is derogatory, ridiculing in spirit, would appear to be designed to suppress disagreement, and not what I would have thought appropriate for a DU moderator to post.

[varkam]

20. Okay, how's this:

the woo-woos that believe the long dead hypothesis that mercury causes autism. Better?

Further note that I was not talking to you when I posted what I did. You may think that someone like Jenny McCarthy is better informed on this issue than I am simply because she has a child with autism. I assure you, she is not. I can read and write just as well as she can, and I would wager that my critical thinking skills are better. While I certainly have sympathy for her situation, that doesn't give her (or anyone else, for that matter) an excuse for spewing pseudoscientific nonsense that has the potential to endanger the public health. Your insinuation that I can not have a well-formed opinion since I am not a parent of an autistic child is precisely an appeal to emotion that is designed to suppress dissent.

Moreover, continuing to bark up the tree of mercury as an etiological factor in autism is wasting time and money that could be devoted to other research into etiological factors (which are largely genetic, by the way) and into more effective treatment modalities; by which I do not mean chelation.

[Orrex]

21. Your first post was attempting to discredit varkam

Apparently based on your assumption that he doesn't have an autistic child. That fact is, as I stated, irrelevant and none of your business. However, long-time readers of this forum recognize your question as a tactic for discrediting one's opponent: by suggesting that he doesn't have to live with the great difficulties of raising an autistic child, you imply that he lacks the authority to speak on the matter, and that by extension his facts are subordinate to the emotional appeals by parents of autistic children. This is absurd and inconsistent with rational discussion.

If your intent was not to discredit him in this fashion, then I apologize, with the stipulation that your framing of the question was identical to the back-handed implications to which I refer.

Additionally, I don't care whether or not you mentioned Thimerosal, because varkam did, and he was correct to do so. The fad among the mercury militia (see below) is to blame Thimerosal-tainted vaccines for the onset of autism. Varkam rightly pointed out that the vaccines in question didn't even contain Thimerosal, so that the standard claim is baseless.

Why else would the original article point out that the child developed autism after vaccination, except to imply that the vaccinations somehow caused the autism? That is, of course, the classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.


And of course the term "mercury militia" is derogatory and ridiculing; the people who claim that autism is caused by mercury are arguing in the absence of any empirical supporting data. It is ridiculous to do so. Varkam is ridiculing a method of bad thinking and, by extension, the people who willfully engage in that bad thinking; is it your assertion that DU moderators must abandon their skills of critical thinking? Or would you prefer that he come up with a kinder and gentler way of referring to this particular group of people? What designator do you suggest?

[Liberal Veteran]

29. "mercury militia" is no more derogatory than the term "AIDS denialists".

They are both fringe groups that cling to bad science long after real science has proven them wrong.

[cornermouse]

31. That's it for you.

[Liberal Veteran]

32. ROTFLMFAO!

[cornermouse]

4. Interesting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/09/AR2007090901612.html

MedImmune said last week that it has resolved problems with the manufacturing of its nasal flu vaccine FluMist, clearing the way for the Food and Drug Administration to allow the company to ship the product in time for flu season.

The FDA sent the Gaithersburg firm a lengthy warning letter in May, citing "significant deviations from current good manufacturing practice."

Agency officials were concerned that MedImmune had not properly followed up after excessive levels of mold and bacteria were found during early stages of the production process. The FDA said the vaccine had not been contaminated.

The FDA's warning letter has held up shipments of FluMist. It also put on hold MedImmune's efforts to win regulatory approval for use of the vaccine by children under 5. Expanding the vaccine's use in that important market has been a cornerstone of the firm's efforts to boost the prospects for FluMist, which has not been a hit in the marketplace. It is now approved only for people ages 5 to 49.

[varkam]

8. *Cue scary conspiracy music*

Your point?

[TZ]

12. Dude, thats really old news

That warning letter issue was resolved a long time ago.
And Flu Mist was recently approved for use in children under 5.
Oh, plus, as I said upthread, flumist never had preservatives in it. No thimerosol nothing. Just virus.

[cornermouse]

14. Dude, the kids birthdate is really old news too.

Timeline appears to be

approximately May 29, 2007 Bush's FDA issues a warning letter to MedImmune due to mold and bacteria apparently while simultaneously approving use in children under 5.
approximately September, 2007 Bush's FDA gives them the green light.

Didn't you read the article I posted? :shrug: I guess that would explain why it escaped your attention that up to this point, I have not used the word thimerosol.

[varkam]

17. It's "Bush's FDA"? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Note that the FDA did not find that the vaccines had been contaminated. I guess when it comes to that, it's "Bush's FDA". When it comes to seeing that there are some problems in the mfc process, then all of a sudden they're uncovering the Truth(tm).

[TZ]

23. I'm fVERY familiar with FluMist and other vaccines

even had the contaminated vaccine gone out it would NOT have caused the problems in the OP.
And btw, since well before and AFTER the warning letter, Medimmune has undergone heavy and THOROUGH inspections by the FDA..but of course in your mind, thats nothing but a chit chat, when in REALITY its serious and strict.
BTW, it is common to have batches of vaccines recalled for just that reason.
And the only difference between the FDA now and pre-Bush is less inspectors..yet somehow, those inspectors caught the problem..hmm.
Wow. The FDA DID ITS JOB. And the problem was fixed.

[TZ]

13. For the anti-vax nuts

These children have a pre-existing condition it seems with these mitochondrial disorder..its possible that vaccines COULD expose that..Its long been known that certain people with certain medical conditions CANNOT get vaccines..It also means that its likely than even a normal illness could make these diseases appear.

[varkam]

18. That's what they said in the article.

First, there's no way of screening for MD pre-vaccination. Also, something as simple as the common cold can cause this marked deterioration that is seen in these two cases.

[TZ]

24. Indeed

But some people seem to lack reading comphrension skills around here, so I thought I would summarize it plainly.

[AntiVax]

26. 65% of ASD Kids Have Mitichondrial Disorder

Nioce try

Mito disorder http://whale.to/vaccine/mitichondrial_disorder.html

Vaccines/Autism - 65% of ASD Kids Have Mitichondrial Disorder From: "Clifford G. Miller"

Lest the reader think that “underlying mitochondrial disorder” has nothing to do with mercury poisoning by mercury/Thimerosal, the reader need only consult some of the papers linking Thimerosal to the poisoning of mitochondrial pathways:

Yel L, Brown LE, Su K, Gollapudi S, Gupta S. Thimerosal induces neuronal cell apoptosis by causing cytochrome c and apoptosis-inducing factor release from mitochondria. Int J Mol Med. 2005 Dec; 16(6):971–7.
Humphrey ML, Cole MP, Pendergrass JC, Kiningham KK. Mitochondrial mediated Thimerosal-induced apoptosis in a human neuroblastoma cell line (SK-N-SH). Neurotoxicology 2005 Jun; 26(3):407–16.
Parys JB, Missiaen L, De Smedt H, Droogmans G, Casteels R. Bell-shaped activation of inositol-1,4,5-trisphosphate-induced Ca2+ release by Thimerosal in permeabilized A7r5 smooth-muscle cells. Pflugers Arch. 1993 Sep; 424(5-6):516–22. Key realities about autism, vaccines, vaccine-injury compensation, Thimerosal, and autism-related research----Gary S. Goldman, Ph.D & P.G. King PhD

[varkam]

36. Nioce?

Here's the abstract that you're referring to:

Most children with autistic spectrum disorders do not have recognizable abnormalities on a broad range of imaging, metabolic and genetic studies. However, a subset of patients do harbor significant defects in oxidative phosphorylation function. Complex I abnormalities are the most frequently encountered defect. Recognition of these children is important for understanding how genes that produce autistic spectrum disorders impact mitochondrial function. Supported by: Horizon Molecular Medicine.

Hmmm...sounds like less than 65%. Maybe Mr. Miller should take some reading comp classes.

[AntiVax]

25. Vaccine autism

http://whale.to/vaccine/king.html

flu jab has mercury in it

Fifth, with respect to the myth's claim, "by 2002 no new childhood vaccines
with Thimerosal were being sold in the U.S.," this is also false because,
among other Thimerosal-containing vaccines that could be given to children
in 2002, the Thimerosal-preserved influenza vaccine, which, by its nature,
is a new vaccine every year, was effectively knowingly added to the
recommended vaccination schedule for pregnant women as well as to the
recommended childhood vaccination schedule in April of 200228 at a time when
all doses of the influenza vaccine approved for "healthy children aged 6-23
months" were Thimerosal preserved.

Sixth, compounding the harm, in April of 2002, the CDC's recommendation that
the Thimerosal-preserved influenza vaccine be given to pregnant women who
would be in their second and third trimesters of their pregnancies during
the influenza season, thereby knowingly recommending the Thimerosal and
mercury poisoning the developing child in utero when the risk of harm is
even greater than it is postpartum and the results published in 197729
clearly found that Thimerosal-preserved influ vaccines that were given to
pregnant women significantly increased (with a hospital-standardized
relative risk of 2.0 or higher) their children's risk of serious birth
defects (cleft palate [RR =

[cornermouse]

27. Don't confuse them with facts and statistics about thimerosal or anything else.

They don't want to hear it.

Personally due to my own experience, I lean toward either thimerosal or possibly exposure to formaldehyde fumes over a period of time. Genetics isn't on the list and having participated in a study, I suspect that there is evidence somewhere to back it up. I did find it interesting though that there was apparently some question of mold and bacteria during the early processes. I don't feel the FDA statement about the vaccine not being contaminated is very convincing at this point in time. I did think it was interesting and well worth pointing out.

[varkam]

39. You are entitled to your own opinions...

but not to your own facts. For instance, the FluMist vaccine (that was the subject of the post), has no thimerosal in it...nor any other preservative. I think it's interesting though that you're still talking out of both sides of your mouth regarding the FDA.

Of course, with opinions like yours, who needs facts?

[Liberal Veteran]

28. 1. They don't "jab" you with FluMist. It is a nasal spray. 2. FluMist doesn't contain any mercury

or preservatives. It's attenuated virus.

[cosmik debris]

30. Baloney Detection Kit.

http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html

[AntiVax]

33. hey Frank Zappa

he was a phoney too http://whale.to/b/inside_the_lc.html

that was a HealthFraud link, and we all know who pulls their strings http://whale.to/p/quacks.html

Sagan was in bed with CSICOP http://whale.to/b/csicop.html

The so-called "sceptics" of CSICOP (Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, headed by Klass) are not true sceptics, but rather a clandestinely controlled false propaganda operation of the OSI (Office of Scientific Intelligence, a branch of the CIA's Science Directorate, under its Clandestine Services, Operations Division).

[cosmik debris]

34. But what about the Freemasons and the Illuminati?

I want to hear about the real bad guys.

[cosmik debris]

37. The Illuminati Win Again!

Before you could reveal the secret conspiracy between the Illuminati and the Freemasons, you got tomb stoned.

The tentacles of the Illuminati reach deep into every crevice of your life.

You can never defeat them.

Resistance is futile.

[varkam]

38. Begin Secret Illuminati Transmission:

1AGH-2Rt98-Q1.0kl/WIJUVF1

/end transmission

[cosmik debris]

41. Roger, Message received.

The plan for world domination is complete with the defeat of AntiVax.

Victory is ours!

[chicagomd]

42. Please stop

posting links to that website in your responses. In addition to being scientifically questionable, it is overtly anti-Semitic.

I will not link directly but here is a discussion:
http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/163/

Linking to any website that posts the entire "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" and then offers them up as proof of an ancient conspiracy has no place here on DU.

[cosmik debris]

43. That poster has been exiled to the great message board in the sky

He will not be back.

But thanks for pointing out one more flaw in his absolutely absurd position.

[chicagomd]

44. Just once,

I would like to hear a coherent argument against vaccines. You know, without fear mongering, toxic gambits, logical fallacies, bullshit science, and intellectual dishonest.

And not suggesting the a (or is it another?) massive Jewish conspiracy might help as well.

[TZ]

45. Well possibly you won't hear it

because there isn't one..but of course you and I are just narrow minded fundamentalist scientific types who earn our living from getting checks from the FDA to rubberstamp treatments, so of course we won't "hear" it.(I'm saving time for various other people in this forum)....;-)

[varkam]

35. FluMist has no thimerosal in it. And it's not a jab.

You're welcome.

[Orrex]

40. So now you're claiming that nasal sprays cause autism?!? Make up your mind, varkam!

:rofl: