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What was recent study in JAMA comparing effectiness of heart operations?

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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 12:15 AM
Original message
What was recent study in JAMA comparing effectiness of heart operations?
I think I saw a recent article in JAMA comparing effectiveness of some types of heart operations
to other options. Does anyone know of the study and a URL?

What evidence is there for the most effective treatments of heart problems such as clogged arteries?
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Frustratedlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Are you referring to stents?
There have been articles about the difference between stents. The new ones are medicated to prevent future clogging. You might do a search for stents and see if that is what you are looking for. The stents are taking the place of open heart surgery, unless the problems are beyond what stents can do.
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. No, but thats an option. I saw reference to a recent article in JAMA
Edited on Fri Feb-03-06 12:35 AM by philb
comparing safety and effectiveness of some of the various options for dealing with serious heart problems.
But I can't find it now. It said some of the most used methods weren't the most effective option.

Someone in my extended family recently had 3 stents.
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Many doctors & research support EDTA chelation as most effective treatment
for clogged arteries and other heart conditions, and by far the safest treatment.

Here are some studies I found on safety and effectiveness of EDTA for clogged arteries,etc.
Anyone know of other studies comparing safety and effectiveness of the various options?

http://www.flcv.com/edtah.html

If you had an aging relative with badly clogged arteries, what treatment would you use and why?



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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Studies & clinical cases on effectiveness of oral ETDA chelation for clogg

ed arteries,etc.

Extreme Health studies of effectiveness of oral EDTA chelation for clogged arteries using thermology
http://www.extremehealthusa.com/clinicalst.html
http://www.extremehealthusa.com/drparentrpt.html
http://www.extremehealthusa.com/nutritional-therapy.html#3
http://www.extremehealthusa.com/article.html


Liver Disease
Extreme Health Liver Support effective: double blind study
http://www.extremehealthusa.com/liver_support.html

Dr. Garry Gordon claims that oral chelation prevents or improves most chronic heart problems, and is documented to be more effective than other more expensive treatments involving surgery, angioplasty, etc.

Oral Chelation - The Strongest Natural Treatment for Your Heart, Arteries, Memory, and More
http://smartpub.web01.yourhost.com/articles/edta-oral-chelation-1.php


Cardio Renew Liquid EDTA therapy
http://www.cardiorenew.com/

Mercury: USA’s preferred posion
http://www.discover.com/issues/mar-05/features/our-preferred-poison/

Mercury detox preferred treatment for autism
http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/ari.pdf
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. The American Heart Association does not.
Edited on Fri Feb-03-06 09:06 AM by trotsky
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4493

The American Heart Association has reviewed the available literature on using chelation (ke-LA'shun) (E.D.T.A., ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid) to treat arteriosclerotic (ar-te"re-o-skleh-ROT'ik) heart disease. We found no scientific evidence to demonstrate any benefit from this form of therapy.

But in true scientific fashion, they are supporting the Trial to Assess Chelation Therapy (TACT):

This study is being done because there is a public health need to conduct a large, well-designed clinical trial to find out if chelation therapy is safe and effective for treating people with coronary heart disease. If people use chelation therapy and it doesn’t work, they may be deprived of the well-established benefits from the many other valuable methods of treating these diseases, such as lifestyle modifications, medications and surgical procedures.

Will you accept the results of TACT if it shows chelation doesn't work? Or will you once again dismiss results that don't agree with you?
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I don't dismiss any valid information; show me some I"ve dismissed
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. Study of EDTA Effectiveness using Thermography to measure effectiveness:
Edited on Tue Feb-07-06 01:55 AM by philb
Study of EDTA Effectiveness using Thermography to measure effectiveness: (from a URL I posted)

If there is a disturbance in the energy-conversion processes, as occurs in the case of blocked or narrowed arteries, the lessened heat emissions and reduced blood flow appear as darker areas on the thermology scan. In this way thermology tracks the progressive deterioration of the flow of infrared energy along atherosclerotic arteries and can be used as early detection of heart disease.

The results of Dr. Hoekstra's study revealed marked improvement in blood circulation in all but one of the patients, as documented by the thermologic images. Vascularization (improved blood flow) of the feet increased by as much as 33%-significant improvements after only a six-month trial.


note: the URLs I posted also included double blind studies showing effectiveness


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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. If its a valid and well done study, the results will be useful
Edited on Tue Feb-07-06 11:36 PM by philb
but many studies are designed to produce a desired result, and many deal with limited circumstances.
I'll try to look at the design.

But if its a valid study it is unlikely to find EDTA not useful,
since its well documented that toxic metals accumulate in the heart and have major cardiovascular effects
www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/cardio.html
and EDTA is known to be effective at chelating metals, approved by FDA and commonly used by military,etc. for such
lots of documentation available. (though not the best choice for metals such as mercury)

Clogged arteries are primarily caused by inflamation.
Toxic metals are also documented to be a major factor in clogged arteries by Dr. Russell Blaylock by their
ability to cause inflamation(induce TNFa and inflamatory cytokines) as well as proliferation of viruses involved in inflamation of arteries.
Blaylock Wellness Report, Feb 2006
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/inflamhg.html

and as Blaylock points out,

Nanobacteria is commonly found in the plaque of patients with clogged arteries and tends to be encased in a wall of calcium that protects it from antibiotics. One reason that EDTA is effective in many with clogged arteries is that the EDTA dissolves the calcium.
Russell Blaylock, Neurologist

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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. And then there's this...
http://blogs.health.yahoo.com/experts/heartdisease/82/chelation-therapy-does-it-work

...randomized, double-blind studies of intravenous chelation therapy with EDTA were carried out in 153 patients with claudication (leg pain with exercise due to narrowed leg arteries) in Denmark and in 32 patients in New Zealand. The small improvements in these patients after weeks of treatment were the same whether they received EDTA or a saline solution intravenously. A Canadian trial randomly assigned 84 patients with coronary heart disease to treatment with either intravenous EDTA or intravenous saline twice weekly for 15 weeks. After 27 weeks there was no difference between the two groups in how long they could walk on a treadmill before developing abnormalities on their electrocardiogram.

...

I had thought that intravenous chelation was safe, even if it was ineffective. However, last week I read that a five-year-old boy from England went into cardiac arrest and died after undergoing chelation therapy for autism, a psychiatric disorder, at an Advanced Integrative Medicine Center near Pittsburgh.
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. There are a lot of different protocols and lots of clinical studies, use
Currently the preponderance of information supports the effectiveness of EDTA. I'm familiar with the studies you refer to.
I provided a very large number of studies. The studies aren't all directly comparable, as doctor and test protocols and time period vary considerably. I could provide more reviews by credible experts, but prefer to just stick to the study documentation.
Note that there is a proven connection between heart conditions and toxic metals, including clogged arteries, and there is consensus that EDTA is effective in chelating toxic metals, and is approved by FDA for such. I'm not aware of anyone who disputes this. I can post much documentatation if it is desired.

There has been use by lots of people for a long period and lots of studies; most show significant benefit.
Some don't benefit and there are reasons why. Other treatments are better prior to EDTA in some cases, such as those
with high mercury levels.
There are studies using EDTA where valid measures afterward documented significant improvement in the majority.
I personally know some who have benefited by its use, though I've never had reason to use it.


Oral chelation(EDTA)formulas contain more than EDTA, so its not possible to separate out what was the effective ingredient. But most I know who have taken the treatment seriously and followed advise have benefited. And I have a good bit of experience. Though more regarding other things. I am one of a very large number of people that I interact with who have recovered from serious disability after chelation of toxic metals, though I didn't use EDTA.

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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. millions have used EDTA and there have been few problems
Its not clear what was the situation with the 5 year old. EDTA is not commonly used to treat autism, and I don't know of any authority on autism or autism treatment that would propose using it. Because autism usually involves high mercury exposure, and EDTA isn't generally the recommended treatment for mercury. It used mostly for lead and clogged arteries.

I don't know the details, but most reactions to chelation have been due to starting with too high a level before determining if the person is reactive to the chelator or the toxic metal released. Large numbers are immune reactive to various toxic metals such as mercury, nickel, palladium and would have a major immune reaction if much was released at once. Its possible to test to determine ones immune reactivity to guide decisions on treatments and protocols. Also chelation can dump a lot of toxic metals, and special precautions such as nutritional supplementation is necessary to deal with the high amount of toxics in the blood and the high level of free radicals that they generate. Some doctors do proceedures they aren't overyly knowledgable about.



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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Neurologist Russell Blaylock says that EDTA is effective for clogged arter
Edited on Tue Feb-07-06 10:28 PM by philb
"Nanobacteria is commonly found in the plaque of patients with clogged arteries and tends to be encased in a wall of calcium that protects it from antibiotics. One reason that EDTA is effective in many with clogged arteries is that the EDTA dissolves the calcium.
A combination of chelating therapy and aged garlic extract is even more effective, and has been proven to be one of the few things that can actually reverse atherosclerosis. Aged garlic is a powerful antibacterial and antiviral, but also thins the blood and is an efficient antioxidant." (this is the combination in the oral EDTA treatments that I posted research on)
EDTA is documented to be an effective metal chelator of lead, calcium, and some other toxic metals- so is likely more effective on those with significant amounts of such toxic metals(which is documented to be common in the general population by millions of medical lab tests). Garlic may be more effective in those with less lead,etc. But together they seem to be a good combination.


"EDTA will reduce blood pressure in a significant proportion of people, since it binds calcium from the walls of blood vessels. But there are less expensive measures that are also effective, such as aged garlic,etc. "
p4
Blaylock Wellness Report Feb 20006 Dr. Russell Blaylock, Neurologist
Associate Editor: Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons,
An editor of Journal of the American Nutraceutical Association
2004 recipient of the Integrity in Science Award granted by the Weston A. Price Foundation
Author of books and the widely distributed Blaylock Wellness Report

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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-08-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Actually an expert says all studies including yours showed EDTA effective
There has never been a scientific study of EDTA chelation that did not show effectiveness, although there have been reports in which positive data were erroneously interpreted as negative. Reports of negative or adverse results from EDTA chelation following the currently approved protocol have been either editorial comments and letters to the editor written by opponents of this therapy or seriously flawed attempts to discredit chelation with biased and unscientific interpretation of data--sometimes by cardiovascular surgeons who freely admit their bias.(75,84-89)
In the last ten years, a small cluster of studies has sprouted up in the medical literature purporting to demonstrate that EDTA chelation is not effective in treatment of cardiovascular disease. Although flawed and imperfect, those studies in actuality provide only positive support for chelation. Their negative conclusions are not supported by the data.

The Danish Study
The most controversial and oft cited study of that type was done in Denmark. It was the handiwork of a group of Danish cardiovascular surgeons who freely admitted their opposition to chelation. Results of that study were published in two medical journals, the Journal of Internal Medicine and the American Journal of Surgery.(84-85) Adverse conclusions were also widely publicized in the news media.
The surgeons who conducted that study followed 153 patients suffering from intermittent claudication. The patients had such severely compromised circulation in their lower extremities that walking a city block or less would cause them to stop with pain. An endpoint measured for this study was their maximal walking distance (MWD)--the very longest distance that they could walk before pain of claudication brought them to a halt. Patients were equally divided into an EDTA group and a placebo group. In the pre-treatment phase, the EDTA group averaged walking 119 meters before pain stopped them; the placebo group was less limited at the outset and averaged 157 meters.
Treatment was either 20 intravenous infusions of disodium EDTA or 20 infusions of a simple salt solution, depending on their group. Although the study was alleged to be double-blinded (neither patients nor researchers were supposed to know who received placebo and who received EDTA), the researchers later admitted that they broke the code well before the post-treatment final evaluation
Both groups showed improvement, and the investigators concluded that the improvement was not statistically significant. This Danish study turned many people against chelation; but, in rather short order, the integrity of the study was called into question. It was learned that the researchers had violated their own double-blind protocol. Not only did they themselves know before the end of the study who was receiving EDTA and who placebo, they had also revealed this information to many of the test subjects. Before the study was over more than 64 percent of the subjects were aware of which treatment they had received. This was highly questionable from an ethical and scientific standpoint.
One important aspect of the Danish study is the startling fact that the patients who were given EDTA were much sicker than the patients treated with a placebo. Therefore, the improvements the EDTA group made were harder earned and more significant. The researchers (who candidly admitted that they undertook the study to convince the Danish government's medical insurance NOT TO PAY for chelation) either never noticed that aspect or felt reluctant to reveal it. The evidence is seen in the pre-treatment MWDs, 119 meters for the EDTA group and 157 meters for the placebo group.
Still more significant was the standard deviations The plus or minus 38 meters SD for EDTA patients versus the plus or minus 266 meters SD for the placebo group represents an enormous variation in walking capacity that is heavily biased in favor of the placebo group. Those standard deviations show that some placebo patients must have walked half a mile before stopping. The placebo group’s claudication was therefore markedly less severe, and the EDTA group was much more severely diseased. The design of the study was obviously biased against EDTA chelation from the outset.
Yet, when the six-month study was completed the mean MWD in the EDTA group increased by 51.3 percent, from 119 to 180 meters, while the mean MWD in the placebo group increased only 23.6 percent, from 157 to 194 meters. The chelation group’s improvement was therefore more than twice as great as the placebo group’s, even though the chelation group was significantly sicker at the outset. This is a positive study, supporting the usefulness of EDTA chelation. The authors’ published negative conclusions are not supported by the data.

The New Zealand Study
Another study--also conducted by cardiovascular surgeons--was done at the Otago Medical School in Dunedin, New Zealand, two years after the Danish study. The subjects of this study were also suffering from intermittent claudication. The subjects were divided into two groups, the EDTA group and the control group. The study extended to three months after 20 infusions of either EDTA or a placebo were given. The authors concluded that EDTA chelation had been ineffective. Once again, that conclusion was unsupported by their data.(86-87)
Absolute walking distance in the EDTA group increased by 25.9 percent; while in the placebo group, it increased by 14.8 percent. The difference was not considered statistically significant. The study, however had only 17 subjects in the placebo group. One of the placebo patients was what the statisticians call an “outlier,” whose results differ strikingly from everyone else in the group. This patient’s walking distance increased by almost 500 meters. All of the statistical gain in the placebo group was due to this one individual’s progress. Without him, the placebo group’s distance actually decreased.
This illustrates the perils of a small study. The 25 percent gain in the EDTA group compared to no gain in the placebo group would have been very significant statistically.
In addition, the New Zealand researchers did concede that improvement in artery pulsatility (pulse intensity) in the EDTA group’s worse leg improved enough to reach statistical significance (p<0.001).
A 25.9 percent improvement in walking is by no means minor and would attract notice if the agent had been a patentable drug. Even that level of improvement is not representative of the much greater improvements claudication patients normally experience after chelation. The below expected improvement seen in this study can be explained by smoking. Eighty-six percent of the chelated subjects were smokers. Although they were advised to quit smoking when the study began, how many of them actually complied is not known.

The Heidelberg Study
Another study that was carried out with an erroneous negative conclusion is the “Heidelberg Trial,” funded by the German pharmaceutical company Thiemann, AG in the early 1980s. A group of patients with intermittent claudication were given 20 infusions of EDTA and compared with a so-called “placebo” group which was actually given bencyclan, a pharmacologically active vasodilating and antiplatelet agent owned by Thiemann.
From a practical commercial standpoint, Thiemann’s action was bizarre. If EDTA did well in the trial, Thiemann’s well-established drug could only suffer. Nonetheless, the trial went forward and was reported in 1985 at the 7th International Congress on Arteriosclerosis in Melbourne, Australia.(87) Immediately following 20 infusions of EDTA the trial subjects’ pain-free walking distance increased by 70 percent. By contrast, patients receiving bencyclan increased their pain-free walking distance by 76 percent. The difference between these two results was not statistically significant, but another result was. Twelve weeks after the series of infusions was completed, the EDTA patients’ average pain-free walking distance had continued to increase, going up to 182 percent. No further improvement had occurred in the patients receiving bencyclan. Those percentages were never published.(87)
An informal report from Thiemann mentioned only the 70 and 76 percent figures. Press releases stated that chelation was no better than a placebo, but failed to mention that the “placebo” was a drug that had been proven effective in the treatment of intermittent claudication. Thiemann never released the actual data on which the Heidelberg Trial based its conclusions, but some German scientists who had access to it, and who were disturbed at the deception they were witnessing, chose to reveal the complete raw data to members of the American scientific community.
The complete data showed that four patients in the EDTA group experienced more than a 1,000-meter increase in their pain-free walking distance following treatment. That highly significant data from those four patients mysteriously disappeared before the final results were made public. Thiemann had a legal right under terms of their contract to edit the final results and to interpret the data in any way that suited them. A subsequent analysis of the data, with the four deleted patients included, showed an average increase in walking distance of 400 percent in the EDTA treated group--five times the 76 percent increase of the group receiving bencyclan.(89)
http://drcranton.com/chelation/freeradical.htm
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. The study I saw in the literature compared angioplasty
with and without anticoagulation and compared the effect of anticoagulation when angioplasty wasn't readily available.

Quick angioplasty was the most effective treatment in all cases and even delayed angioplasty was more effective than anticoagulation.

There was also a surprising difference between male and female patients: men with delayed angioplasty benefited slightly from anticoagulation; in women, anticoagulation at any time was associated with a slightly poorer outcome.

Rapid angioplasty was confirmed as the treatment of choice for people suffering severe loss of blood flow to the heart.
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. What are some causes of severe loss of blood flow to the heart
is clogged arteries among them?

by anticoagulation do you mean blood thinners?
Someone in my family(female) takes blood thinners because they had heart valve replacement.
Did this study imply blood thinners might be a bad idea?
I wouldn't be surprised as the one she uses is very toxic.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. This is an example of why a little learning is a dangerous thing
Sudden loss of blood to the heart is usually caused by a blood clot. Contributing to this may be plaques in the coronary arteries that narrow the artery enough that a clot can shut off blood flow or that may rupture, causing the clot to form. Another cause of loss of blood flow to the heart is an arterial spasm, which may be caused by a variety of recreational drugs and sometimes by smoking (I had a 21 year old patient who blew out a third of her heart like that, she had clean arteries). The thinking was that giving drugs like TpA, which actually break the clot down, would preserve healthy heart tissue. What they found was that early angioplasty did a better job.

Once the sudden loss of blood to the heart occurs, it is an emergency situation and diddling around with chelation, which takes months, will result in a dead patient. The jury is still out on whether or not it's a good preventive measure for people with sky-high coronary risk factors. It is not an emergency procedure, though.

Now, as to taking anticoagulants after heart valve surgery, I sincerely hope your family member is NOT listening to your advice, because the implanted device is a mechanical one and the only way to avoid having the body form a clot around it, rendering it useless and killing the patient, is to anticoagulate the blood. This is done very carefully and monitored very frequently.

They are two different conditions requiring two different treatments.

Please start listening to doctors and other health professionals about this stuff. Most of us do know what we are doing.
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I haven't offered any advise to someone on this issue, but I do think
that the anticoagulant that my mother uses is not the best or safest one available. But since I'm not in the
same state with her, I don't get involved with her doctor.
Just offer general advise.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. The reason why people who have valve replacement are on blood thinners
is because mechanical (non biological) valves promote formation of blood clots which can lead to disastrous stroke or clot to the lung, and the blood thinners are to reduce this risk. It's generally not required if the valve is from a biological source, i.e. cow or pig, because biological materials don't have the same tendency to promote clot formation.

It is an entirely different issue from people getting blockages in the coronary arteries from plaques.
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