Nutritional supplementation - How not to.

[Why Syzygy]

I have permission to x-post this from another forum. It is unedited.
I have never heard such an alarming and tragic story.

Many people don't educate themselves, and do not realize that since these agents do affect our physiology, they have the potential to do harm. If this woman presented to a nutrition dealer with yellow eyes, and was PRESCRIBED for, there is clear legal liability and negligence.

Please be careful. And, be well.

Heddi wrote:

So patient comes in who poo-poo's medicine...."forced" in by her loving family. Hates being in the hospital, sure she's gonna get sicker here than anywhere. May be true, depending on whether or not I feel like washing my hands in between patients. Luck of the draw sometimes :)

Anyhoo, I work on a cardiac floor and all kinds of stuff makes your heart go wonky, especially electrolytes, like magnesium and potassium. And when I say "make your heart go wonky," i mean "make your heart stop working like it should"

So this woman comes in because of chest pain and palpitations and she was turning a lovely shade of orange (literally orange), her stomach looks like she's 45 years pregnant, her eyeballs are orange and they do some tests in the ER and her liver is the size of a watermelon and her heart is about 4 beats away from exploding, her kidneys have completely shut down, and every lab work was just out of whack so she's admitted and we're trying to figure out why this seemingly normal 26 year old has the body functions of a 200 year old and then we find out that she's like this because she "doesn't believe in medicine". Oh and she also starts hallucinating and forgetting who she is and talking crazy stuff.....

Okay. I mean, medicine exists, so the idea of not believing in it is like "I don't believe in air!!11" It's there....there's no believing or disbelieivng.

anyway.

So she "doesn't believe in Medicine" so she takes any and every supplement available in the store. The boyfriend or husband (not sure which), at the request of the MD's, brings in the "supplements" she's using so we can see if that's why all of her precious organs are about to go tits up. And they bring in TWO brown grocery bags---the big bags---of supplements. And she takes these supplements every day, multiple times a day.

One is for PMS and another is for acne. She takes one for dry skin and takes one for memory. Most of them she doesn't know why she takes them other than she read an article that this one helps with bone growth and that one stops your hair from falling out and this one, when taken with that one, makes your labia shrink and your butthole turn a lovely shade of pink.

All in all, there were over 60 bottles of different potions and pills and elixers and lotions. No two were alike....so these weren't duplicates. They were all very professionally bottled with guarantees of purity and excellence. And she took over 60 pills a day in various quantities....two of these to help with sleep tonight but one plus another tomorrow to help mental acumen.

So her labs come back, and her potassium and magneium are at nearly lethal levels. It takes all we can do to get the one up to normal and the one down from lethally high.

Her liver is shot from the supplements. This is a fact. While I am not such an expert, the pharmacist and MD who were looking over her treasure trove of alternativism immediately saw several that were hepato-toxic (posions the liver) esp when mixed together, or taken over a long period of time.

The lady has been in the hospital for quite some time, and her liver will never be functional again. That is why she is orange---jaundice. That is why her stomach is so distended it's about to burst---ascites. That's why she's acting crazy---hepatic encephalopathy. Just to get the ammonia level down (which causes encephalopathy, ammonia levels are too high and start affecting brain function), we have to give her Lactulose, a powerful laxitive that binds to ammonia and excretes it through stool. So she's got a tube up her ass to collect her massive amounts of shit.

They have tapped her stomach three times already just to get some of the ascites (fluid) out of her abdomen. The first time they drained nearly 4 liters but had to stop because her blood pressure could dump from losing that much fluid so quickly.

She'll be getting tapped pretty much three times a week from now on because her liver can't process proteins since, yanno, it's failing.

She also has kidney failure because of these supplements as well. She has had 4 straight days of dialysis to pull off the toxins and fluids, but her kidney function isn't coming back, so it looks like she's going to be on dialysis for the rest of her life as well.

She's so swollen that we can't get IV's in her easily, so we had to put in some central lines and PICC lines....pretty invasive things.

She's going to die, and she's going to die because she took things that she shouldn't have taken. She's going to die because these "all natural" cures have killed her liver and kidneys and are about to kill her brain if we can't keep the ammonia level down. Oh yea, and her heart is totally fucked up not just from the supplements, but from the damage to the kidneys and liver. Her blood pressure goes from 220/115 to 70/palp in a matter of hours because of how fucked up her kidneys are.

She has already gone into cardiac arrest twice, and brought back. She was intubated, but we pulled the tube and she's breathing on her own.

But remember---it's only people who take Rx drugs that have reactions, or that suffer side effects. Rx drugs are the only ones that practice unethical marketing, that target people with a "one pill cures all" remedy. Only Rx drugs are problematic. Take a natural herbal supplement and you'll never suffer a side effect or anything! Because it's natural.

Of course I'll not post in the health lounge because it's only a matter of 3 posts before someone says "Oh well she should have talked with a nutritionist, it's her own fault that she is like that because NO ONE should ever take supplements without researching" but the reality is that a very very small percentage of people research supplements.

Husband/boyfriend even said that when she went to the herbalist store where she got these pills, every time she went in with one ailment, they would reccomend another pill. When she came in and her skin was the colour of a basketball, they suggested a handy topical lotion, rather than getting herself to an emergency room because of the jaundice.

----

This is something I was going to post a long time ago but didn't. This girl was 26 years old and was in the hospital, between my floor and the ICU, for over 3 months. From the day she stepped in, hateful of being there but forced by those who loved her, she didn't leave again until she was on hospice and died a week later at a long term care facility.

She was 26 years old and was developmentally delayed, and it was an obvious developmental delay. The wonderful folks at the supplement store should be hung by their fucking toes for continuing to sell this girl who was not "all there" pill after pill, supplement after supplement, lotion to cure her lethal liver failure......

But there's no ETHICS ISSUE there. MD's are the only ones that do things unethically...never the naturopaths or holistics...bunch of fucking murderers....

She is dead because she was sold the "if they prescribe it then that means its bad" and "there's no such thing as too much natural".

She is dead and she was 26, and she was my patient and I will never forget her orange eyes and always bleeding body....skin bleeding, eyes bleeding, nose bleeding mouth bleeding vagina and anus bleeding...she had no coagulation because of the liver failure. She peed one time in 3 months because of the kidney failure. She never knew who or where she was for more than 5 minutes because of the encephalopathy.

[Systematic Chaos]

1. So naturopaths and holistic people are a "bunch of fucking murderers"

because somebody went completely off the deep end, swallowing every supplement she could get her hands on, and refused to ever go in for basic wellness checkups every few years?

That's like saying Post are a bunch of murderers because someone chooses to eat 20 boxes of Grape Nuts in one sitting and dies from it. Or saying that dihydrogen monoxide is deadly if you choose to drink 8 gallons of it at one time, or if you jump into a pool of it and lie at the bottom without breathing for more than 2-3 minutes. At some point, common sense has to prevail.

I feel sorry for that woman, but she clearly didn't understand the difference between a good multivitamin plus one or two other supplements with proven benefits, and a full-blown obsessive-compulsive disorder to swallow every supplement pill in a 10-mile radius.

[Mike 03]

4. I agree no one is a "murderer", but those of us who are going overboard need to get as much info as

possible. We are definitely out here.

[Why Syzygy]

7. I posted it unedited

to avoid compromising any of the story.

The story clearly indicates the woman would never seek mainstream medical attention.
The supplement dealers were irresponsible, by all indications.

Let's look at the forest, shall we?

[BuddhaGirl]

26. it's a tragic story, indeed.

but ultimately she bears responsibility - she should have been seen by a naturopath, somebody who would have guided her properly on what to take.

[trotsky]

33. I thought liberals were above blaming the victim.

Guess I was wrong.

[BuddhaGirl]

34. yes, I am a liberal

and your point is? :eyes:

[trotsky]

35. Flip this story around a bit.

Imagine it was someone who took way too many prescription drugs, going back to the same doctor who wrote her a prescription last time, to get another.

Would you still be blaming her - or her doctor?

I'm sure you'd be the epitome of consistency. :eyes:

Me, I blame the pusher of the stuff, especially when they already knew the bags of other crap she was taking.

[BuddhaGirl]

36. how do you know that the -pushers- as you call them

knew what other stuff she was taking? I suspect they didn't, because nobody would have told her to take bagfuls of supplements. That's ridiculous. And, people who work in supplement stores are not allowed by law to "push" anything. She went way overboard, unfortunately a victim of her own doing.

[trotsky]

37. Because the account says she kept going to the same store.

Clearly if the situation were reversed, you'd be blaming the doctor. Just wanted to make sure your double standard was clearly laid out. Thanks.

[BuddhaGirl]

38. everyone is entitled to their opinion

n/t

[LeftishBrit]

39. According to the OP she was developmentally disabled.

Not everyone is equally capable of looking out for their own health, in a jungle where there is too little protection for the consumer. I assume you would not give people associated with Big Pharma carte blanche to prescribe unsafe drugs and then say that the victims 'ultimately bear responsibility'; so is not the same true of supplement manufacturers?

[Why Syzygy]

40. There is nothing here to indict the manufacturers.

There may be other reports that suggest that. Not this story.
It was the store who, by all accounts, bears some liability.

[BuddhaGirl]

41. it is not the same

according to the story, the supplements were never "prescribed" to her. She bought them herself. See post #36.

[Dorian Gray]

28. My friend

went to White Castle, got two sacks of 20, ate them ALL, then called White Castle to complain about being sick. They laughed at him. (I think he was a little drunk.)

Common sense!

[Mike 03]

2. This is a great post, and it worries me. I'm one of those people that takes about

sixty or more nutritional supplements a day.

I wish I knew more about which ones were good to take and which are not.

[Why Syzygy]

5. Use your google. For starters.

Do you have an MD? Some vitamins are water soluble and excrete. Vitamins A and E are oil soluble and will stockpile in your body. Are you supplementing for a medical condition or general well being?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. I would strongly suggest you consult with a physician

There are MDs who feel that supplementation is helpful, and at times essential, to an individual's good health. I work for one such MD. She does NOT like it when health food stores tell patients they should take this and that--she believes in diagnosis and testing to determine what a person needs. She has checked out different formulations in supplements and keeps a stock on hand, but mainly sends folks to health food stores or websites with precise instructions as to what to get--and why. I don't take sixty supplements a day, but I can tell you what I take and exactly WHY I take it. Doc has been known to change what a person should take as well, and encourages patients to call in if there is a reaction to any supplementation. That happened to me, and she had me stop the supplement immediately and to do something else. Blood work done confirmed that the new protocol (a change in diet) was what was needed, not the supplement.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

9. OMG..... Mike.... OMG... SIXTY???? Criminy.

[Kahuna]

11. Mike, I hope you can gain something from the OP and reconsider..

your regimen and whether it's really beneficial. I used to be into taking a lot of supplements. I don't any more. After reading this OP, I'm now sure that I never will again. Yikes! :scared:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

12. Good lord, Mike!

Dude, you have to talk with your doc and cut back on the supplements. Some supplements are potentially beneficial (I take several myself), but 60 is WAY overboard. Can you list what you take and what's in each pill/capsule/shot and what it is meant to benefit? If you can't, then you're taking too many.

[Celebration]

25. Why?

I mean, really, I take a few supplements, but not nearly so many. If you eat right there would generally be no reason at all to take than many.

Try consulting with an ND (I mean a REAL licensed one, with a four year post grad degree).

[Dorian Gray]

29. Talk to your doctor

The supplements I take were all recommended by either my GP or my fertility specialist. They know what I am taking, and they've guided me in regard to knowing what dosages are proper for me.

[Mike 03]

3. Maybe it would be good to post this in GD where more people will see it?

I'm a bit worried about what I take, but I keep taking it anyway. And it costs a fortune.

[WhiteTara]

6. how sad for you.

How sad for her and her family. I knew a woman who took massive amounts of vitamin A...not the water soluble beta carotine and she almost died.

But, it didn't sound like any naturopath was involved. Holistic only means whole body, so I'm not sure who they are...but, the point is here, I think that the Health Food Store was prescribing without a license. They are just in it for the money (although most have altruistic motives) and they have no medical degrees. So, most likely, this young woman was "killed" by some other young person who knew only enough to be dangerous...or some older person who wanted to sound wise.

But a huge tragedy none the less.

P.S. Thanks for the reminder to make sure there are no contra indications or adverse reactions.

[Kahuna]

10. Thanks for posting this. It's a good reminder to not take homeopathic

treatments for granted and think they can't kill you too.

[varkam]

13. I'm pretty sure that homeopatic treatments won't kill you.

[Why Syzygy]

14. Not unless you ignore symptoms

if there's no improvement.

Something else to add: Herbals are intended to be taken on a temporary basis. Not all health retailers will tell you this. Even when there's improvement, it is important to stop taking and allow a rest period for the body. Consult a health care professional who knows what they are doing.

[varkam]

15. James Randi routinely demonstrates the non-lethality of homeopathic treatments...

by downing a couple bottles of homeopathic sleeping pills before delivering talks.

[Why Syzygy]

17. They are meant to be dissolved under the tongue.

But, no matter. What Randi does is of no consequence to me.

[varkam]

19. And what difference would it make if they were dissolved under the tongue or in the stomach? eom

[uppityperson]

30. ph. Stomach acids can destroy things that are absorbed more directly under the tongue. Like nitro

pills for angina. If you swallow them, meh. If you put them under your tongue, they dissolve and are absorbed into your blood.

[trotsky]

31. Nitro is an actual medication, however.

Homeojunk is nothing but water and/or inert ingredients.

[uppityperson]

32. Well, there is that.

I was just giving info about why sublingual works with some meds and not others.

[trotsky]

16. You might not understand what "homeopathic" means.

It doesn't mean "natural."

[Kahuna]

20. You're right. I looked it up. I did use the word in error. Thanks. nt

[SidDithers]

21. Homeopathic Suicide...

http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/10/12/homeopathic-suicide-proving-that-homeopathic-remedies-are-quackery.htm

When major health insurance companies in Belgium announced that they would start providing coverage for homeopathic care, skeptics were incensed. They argued that homeopathy is worthless, but the insurance companies insisted that since people liked homeopathy, that made it OK. So the skeptics announced that they would kill themselves via homeopathy.

Check the link for the terrible results.

Sid

[LeftishBrit]

23. Actually...

the good thing about homeopathic treatments is that they probably *can't* kill you. The bad thing about them is that they probably can't do anything else for you, either.

[astral]

18. I see your point.

I do, however, believe in people's right to have access to supplements. It can be confusing to the sanest among us where the happy middle ground is.

[SidDithers]

22. I don't think anyone is suggesting that access be denied...

but only that the billion dollar supplements industry be subject to the same testing, production, labeling and reporting standards as OTC pharmaceuticals.

Sid

[LeftishBrit]

24. That is really tragic

Supplements *are* medicines; and, like other medicines, can be very useful if taken in the right quantities and as needed, and very dangerous if taken inapproprately or in overdose.

Unfortunately, some people do think that if it's 'natural' it's safe. Apart from the fact that vitamin supplements in the form of pills aren't natural (which doesn't mean that they're not useful), plenty of natural things can kill. Perhaps it's our urban lives which make many of us not realize this? Children brought up in the country are generally taught from an early age that some of those pretty red berries or things that look like mushrooms can kill you, and to never touch anything, however 'natural', if you aren't sure what it is. Urban dwellers may miss out on this training and get a sentimentalized idea of the 'natural'.

[semillama]

27. That's a good point.

The desensitization of the modern human from the natural environment has all sorts of unforeseen consequences, one of which probably is the view that "natural=safe" or even "natural = better than artificial" which of course is not always the case.