Question for those who believe there might be a causative vaccine/autism link.

[Orrex]

What evidence would convince you that there is no such link?

Does such evidence exist, even hypothetically? Or are you 100% certain of the link, even though no studies have shown the link to exist and many studies have demonstrated, in fact, that the link does not exist?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. From what I have studied, each case of autism

is unique--there is no one "cause" of the spectrum disorder. For an individual, you can do a tox screen for heavy metals and see if there is, for example, way too much mercury in the system. But you'd have to rule out other sources for the mercury than just vaccines. The problem with the autistic kid with a load of heavy metals is that he or she can't detox themselves--not necessarily that the vaccination "caused" the problem.

[Orrex]

3. That doesn't really answer the question, though

And AFAIK the heavy metal/autism link is likewise poorly supported. That's why chelation therapy--often described by its advocates as a valid treatment for autism--doesn't actually do anything to ameliorate the condition.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. Chelation therapy

I agree with your general premise that chelation therapy--but with this reservation. I believe it can work in certain individual cases where it has been ascertained that the patient has toxic metals and his/her body can't seem to get rid of them--but chelation, in my experience, is never the only treatment given to an autistic patient.


Chelation is a treatment for those who have too much of certain metals in their system. It isn't a therapy that is confined to autistic children, and not all autistic children undergo chelation. In my experience, the autism spectrum disorder is usually caused by a variety of factors and it takes a variety of therapies to ameliorate the condition. I have yet to hear of a "magic bullet" that will change an autistic child into one who relates better with the world--but I have seen dramatic improvements with autistic children who have been given individualized programs of diet, supplementation, prescription medicines (like B-12 injections), and, at times, chelation.

[JuniperLea]

7. Yes, an accumulative effect...

Metals are like that. Cooking in aluminum pans is suspect in a lot of things, including Alzheimer's... but we know cooking in cast iron adds needed iron to foods. I no longer have a microwave at home, and on the rare occasion I nuke something at work, I put it in a glass or crockery container first. I would never heat anything in plastic again.

[JuniperLea]

2. Even though you are completely wrong... what do you think about xyz...

Oddly framed questions there, Orrex.

I am suspicious of everything I put into the bodies of my children; this is part of mothering and human nature.

We have had so very little oversight in every governmental regulatory (word used lightly) agency, and I wouldn't doubt the same holds true for the FDA. How many times have you seen a food coloring, a food additive, a sweetener, a drug, be FDA approved and released for human consumption, only to have it recalled and thousands of class actions initiated?

For me, it would take an independent study paid for by a fully vetted citizen's group with no ties to big pharma. Period.

[Orrex]

4. A valid answer--thank you.

However, I reject the claim that there's a causative link between vaccines and autism, though I do see the obvious benefit of vaccination, and that's why both of our sons are vaccinated.

Perhaps that's just part of fathering and human nature.

[JuniperLea]

6. All three of my children were vaccinated...

After much discussion with my pediatrician, who happens to have had children of the same age. I asked him what his concerns were, and there were many. Because we live in an area of the US where we have a constant influx of people from other countries that do not vaccinate, and many that still have incidence of the diseases in question, both my pediatrician and I agreed on going forward. But not until there was much discussion, and determination of family history of certain diseases or genetic issues that may have had a bearing on the decision.

But this was 25-30 years ago... we are in another place now. If I had to make that decision today, there are far more genetic tests available, and far less confidence in regulations. I would probably be far more vocal in my desire for that aforementioned study.

[mzmolly]

5. Are you suggesting that no person has ever developed symptoms of autism

as a result of vaccination?

[Orrex]

10. Nope. I'm asking a question.

And developing "symptoms of autism as a result of vaccination" is not the same as developing autism as a result of vaccination.

The Hannah Poling case, though sad, is not relevant to the question I asked.

[mzmolly]

21. It certainly is. Autism is diagnosed based upon a set of symptoms.

Unless one can say that no person has developed symptoms of autism due to vaccination, one can't claim vaccines don't cause autism.

[Orrex]

22. That's a contrarian position akin to denial of global warming

The following preposterous statement is no different from the statement you're making:

Unless one can say that no person has developed symptons of autism due to bird migrations, one can't claim that bird migrations don't cause autism.

Such pie-in-the-sky impossible demands are the essence of anti-science. Just ask Kent Hovind.

[mzmolly]

23. A ridiculous

response.

I suggest that global warming deniers are far more closely aligned with those who deny that carcinogens and neurotoxins are harmless so long as they're found in a vaccine.

[Orrex]

24. I'm sure that you do, and more's the pity

Ultimately the burden is on you and your ilk to prove the causative link between vaccines and autism.

You have stated clearly that only an impossible proof would satisfy you that the link does not exist, when you would simply be required to provide one proven example, and Hannah Poling isn't it.


And you still haven't provide funding for the study to disprove the bird migration/autism link. Why do you fear honest research? Why must you adopt an anti-science position?

[mzmolly]

26. Hannah Poling IS an example

as are many others.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-and-david-kirby/vaccine-court-autism-deba_b_169673.html

But last week, the parents of yet another child with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) were awarded a lump sum of more than $810,000 (plus an estimated $30-40,000 per year for autism services and care) in compensation by the Court, which ruled that the measels-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine had caused acute brain damage that led to his autism spectrum disorder.

The family of 10-year-old Bailey Banks won their case quietly and without fanfare in June of 2007, but the ruling has only now come to public attention. In the remarkably clear and eloquent decision, Special Master Richard Abell ruled that the Banks had successfully demonstrated that "the MMR vaccine at issue actually caused the conditions from which Bailey suffered and continues to suffer."

It's up to your "ilk" to admit that when people get autism as a result of vaccination that means vaccines "caused" the autism.

[Orrex]

29. That's a legal decision, for which the standard of proof is much lower than for science

[mzmolly]

32. The courts were the first to rule that cigs cause lung cancer

as well.

It took fifty years before the courts finally acknowledged that cigarette smoking causes cancer.

There were billions of dollars at stake.

The dozens of court decisions that there "was no proof" were supported by physicians, expert witnesses of all types and hundreds of millions of dollars spent on attorneys.

Experts and doctors alike stated over and over again that we need not continue studying this issue because there was just no proof.

Let me state very simply, vaccines can cause autism.

No real scientist would encourage us to stop studying this possibility. ~ Dr. Jay Gordon, M.D. ~ and Scientist

More at LINK

[mzmolly]

27. Correction, to my previous post, I meant those who SUGGEST that

carcinogens and neurotoxins are harmless.... ;)

[Orrex]

30. It's no more compelling an argument even after the correction

[mzmolly]

31. I'm certain that those who also compare

bird migration to environmental causes of autism would agree.

[tabatha]

8. More study is required in a lot of issues dealing with all vaccines.

Here are some references to scientific studies about flu vaccines.

This does not mean that vaccines should not be given. It means that toxins in the vaccines should be studied - much like lead in food, non-stick coatings on cookware, mercury in water, fish, etc.

Vaccines contain the following:
• Formaldehyde -- a known cancer-causing agent
• Aluminum -- a neurotoxin that has been linked to Alzheimer’s disease
• Triton X-100 -- a detergent
• Phenol (carbolic acid)
• Ethylene glycol (antifreeze)

Where are the studies showing that these substances have no effect on those receiving vaccines.

A) Influenza vaccine effectiveness among children 6 to 59 months of age during 2 influenza seasons: a case-cohort study.
Szilagyi PG, Fairbrother G, Griffin MR, Hornung RW, Donauer S, Morrow A, Altaye M, Zhu Y, Ambrose S, Edwards KM, Poehling KA, Lofthus G, Holloway M, Finelli L, Iwane M, Staat MA; New Vaccine Surveillance Network.

Strong Memorial Hospital, Rochester, NY 14642, USA. [e-mail]

OBJECTIVE: To measure vaccine effectiveness (VE) in preventing influenza-related health care visits among children aged 6 to 59 months during 2 consecutive influenza seasons. DESIGN: Case-cohort study estimating effectiveness of inactivated influenza vaccine in preventing inpatient/outpatient visits (emergency department and outpatient clinic). We compared vaccination status of laboratory-confirmed influenza cases with a cluster sample of children from a random sample of practices in 3 counties (subcohort) during the 2003-2004 and 2004-2005 seasons. SETTING: Counties encompassing Rochester, New York, Nashville, Tennessee, and Cincinnati, Ohio. PARTICIPANTS: Children aged 6 to 59 months seen in inpatient/ED or outpatient clinic settings for acute respiratory illnesses and community-based subcohort comparison. Main Exposure Influenza vaccination. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Influenza vaccination status of cases vs subcohort using time-dependent Cox proportional hazards models to estimate VE in preventing inpatient/ED and outpatient visits. RESULTS: During the 2003-2004 and 2004-2005 seasons, 165 and 80 inpatient/ED and 74 and 95 outpatient influenza cases were enrolled, while more than 4500 inpatient/ED and more than 600 outpatient subcohorts were evaluated, respectively. In bivariate analyses, cases had lower vaccination rates than subcohorts. However, significant influenza VE could not be demonstrated for any season, age, or setting after adjusting for county, sex, insurance, chronic conditions recommended for influenza vaccination, and timing of influenza vaccination (VE estimates ranged from 7%-52% across settings and seasons for fully vaccinated 6- to 59-month-olds). CONCLUSION: In 2 seasons with suboptimal antigenic match between vaccines and circulating strains, we could not demonstrate VE in preventing influenza-related inpatient/ED or outpatient visits in children younger than 5 years. Further study is needed during years with good vaccine match.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18838647?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16437500

B) The remaining evidence base is currently insufficient to indicate the magnitude of the mortality benefit, if any, that elderly people derive from the vaccination programme.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W8X-4PRJTNM-S&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2007&_rdoc=22&_fmt=summary&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(%23toc%236666%232007%23999929989%23669378%23FLA%23display%23Volume)&_cdi=6666&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=26&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2d5b408b7d441b442bcc0da8f9b9d8bf

C) A study published in the Lancet just found that influenza vaccination was NOT associated with a reduced risk of pneumonia in older people. Research published in the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine also confirms that there has been no decrease in deaths from influenza and pneumonia, despite the fact that vaccination coverage among the elderly has increased from 15 percent in 1980 to 65 percent now.

(source - Mercola newsletter about the importance of Vit D. I read the Mercola newsletters - most of his information is supported by studies performed by reputable institutions. Some of his stuff is just to promote his products - and which I just ignore. I have found many of the comments on the newsletters very interesting, because people have often related personal experiences about various remedies, etc.)

[Orrex]

12. So, you don't have an answer to my question?

Okay.

[pnwmom]

9. You can't logically prove a negative. So, no evidence could prove that.

But besides that, there's already been a link acknowledged between mitochondrial disorders and vaccine-related autism symptoms. I expect there will turn out to be other children at risk, either because of a genetic vulnerability or a combination of a vaccine issue and other environmental exposures.

[Orrex]

11. 'Vaccine-related autism symptoms' are not the same as autism

Severe leg pain and inability to walk are symptoms of a broken leg, but they are not the same as a broken leg. The coincidence of symptons does not mean equivalence of underlying condition.


And, anyway, that's why the I framed the question as a hypothetical, rather than saying "I have a question based exclusively on proven fact."

[pnwmom]

13. Autism is a syndrome, that is, a collection of symptoms.

A collection of autism symptoms vs. "autism syndrome" = a distinction without a difference.

[Orrex]

14. Depression is a syndrome, that is, a collection of symptoms

But not everyone who feels depressed has the condition known as depression. That's a distinction pointing out a very important difference, both for treatment and prevention.

[pnwmom]

18. Specific types of depression are occasionally referred to as a syndrome,

(such as "post vacation depression syndrome) but depression in general is not.

In any case, a person can "feel depressed" because s/he is grieving -- that does not mean s/he is suffering from clinical depression.

With people on the autism spectrum, however, having autism symptoms is what puts them on the spectrum. Hannah Poling is just as much on the autism spectrum as any other child with the syndrome.

[Orrex]

25. That's called moving the goalposts

Here's how it's gone, more or less, over time:

1. Thimerosal causes autism.
Never scientifically proven or even reasonably demonstrated

2. Impurities in vaccines cause autism.
Never scientifically proven or even reasonably demonstrated

3. Certain impurities in certain vaccines cause certain kinds of autism.
Never scientifically proven or even reasonably demonstrated

4. Certain impurities in certain vaccines cause conditions with symptoms broadly associated with autism.
Never scientifically proven or even reasonably demonstrated, because Poling's case is unique by definition and is in any case a statutory decision rather than a scientific conclusion.


What's next for the antivax woo crowd?

[pnwmom]

33. I'm not in the "antivax crowd," whatever that is. And I've always thought there

are probably multiple causes and/or triggers for the development of autism disorders, so I'm not moving any goal posts.

The "pro vax" crowd insists on limiting access to the most useful vaccine data and then crows that no one's done the research to link autism with vaccines. How convenient!

It's also convenient that you push the views of the vaccine courts when it suits you -- such as in the three recent cases -- and not when it doesn't, as in Poling's case. Then it's only a "statutory decision rather than a scientific conclusion."

There is nothing about Poling's case that makes her situation unique; there are thousands of other children with mitochondrial disorders and some of them have autism. The jury is still out on whether there are others whose symptoms developed as a result of a vaccine reaction.

[trotsky]

15. Nor can we prove the moon ISN'T made of green cheese.

I mean, we've been there, but maybe the secret green cheese society planted real rocks where they knew the astronauts were going to land and collect samples. You can't prove me wrong!

[Orrex]

16. 'Green cheese society?' Are you excusing the moon men for their involvement?

[pnwmom]

19. But we can show what we do find there. And so far, no green cheese.

That is all we can say about autism and vaccines, too. So far, we haven't found a link. But the government is still keeping a lid on the vaccine research database. Like the scientist quoted at the NIH today, I think there's still plenty of research to do on the risks of subsets of the population who are given the vaccine.

Gluten isn't safe for everybody. Peanuts aren't safe for everybody. The old pertussis vaccine wasn't safe for everybody. How do we know that there aren't children who are especially vulnerable to damage from vaccines unless we do the research?

[trotsky]

28. You're kinda missing the point here.

But the government is still keeping a lid on the vaccine research database.

No, they're not. What they won't do is release data that could compromise individuals' health information, which is what people like the Geiers want to do with it. I'm rather glad they aren't giving away private health information to just anyone - aren't you? If an anti-vaccine researcher could design a study that doesn't compromise the data, they'd be allowed access to it as well.

How do we know that there aren't children who are especially vulnerable to damage from vaccines unless we do the research?

Well, for one, we'd expect to see a significant causal relationship in the biggest study that could ever be done: the one that's going on right now, with children of all different racial, cultural, ethnic, and economic groups getting vaccinated as part of normal medical practice. So far, no link. None whatsoever.

[pnwmom]

34. If you know anything about "the biggest study that could ever be done"

you must realize it is a completely haphazard way of doing research, left to the whims and paperwork skills of thousands of doctors across the country, who aren't participating in a study. They're just filling out an adverse effects form, if they feel like it. If they're not too busy.

My own son had an unusual and serious vaccine reaction that SHOULD have been reported, but my doctor chose not to do so. His reasoning: my son's reaction wasn't one of the ones listed as happening after a DPT shot. And it lasted for a full week, while -- supposedly -- vaccine reactions only last for 48 hours. Therefore, my 2 month old breastfeeding son, who'd practically never left the house, must have picked up some other mysterious "bug" around the same exact time he got the shot. So this doctor, in his infinite wisdom, decided NOT to file an adverse effects report.

It wasn't till a few years later that I learned that my sister had died of encephalitis (now a known risk of the whole-cell vaccine) the day after receiving the DPT shot. And so had a cousin of my mother's, and another cousin had neurological damage. Otherwise, I would have insisted that my doctor file the report -- not that that probably would have done any good.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trotsky]

37. Ultimately, that's the end study for any treatment or medicine, you know.

We can test in animals, we can do trials. But some things you might not learn until you have a large enough sample size. That's not sloppy science, that's just reality. And NO amount of study will prevent it.

[MaineCoast]

20. Research underfunded

Although my own children were vaccinated and I would vaccinate them again if I had to do it over, I see why parents of autistic children want answers to this frustrating, complex and mysterious condition. Reactions can occur to any vaccine of course and, in fact, one of my own children had a very serious reaction to his MMR shot 15 years ago as a baby. The vaccine caused a high fever resulting in a major seizure and he ended up in the intensive care unit. As a result, it was recommended he not receive additional vaccines. Is there a risk? Sure - but today diseases that were thought to have been eradicated are reappearing where children are not vaccinated. This is frightening. What would convince me one way or the other would be MORE long-term research. Research is always underfunded though...

[pnwmom]

36. Thanks for your thoughtful post. And welcome to DU!

Try not to let the absolutists around here bother you . . .