Seriously, though, what's wrong with taxing the rich?

[oldtime dfl_er]

It's a proven fact that 'trickle down' doesn't work.

So -- I ask in all seriousness, because I REALLY don't get it -- what is wrong with upping the taxes (which have been lowered to ridiculous and unfair margins over the last 8 years) on the wealthiest Americans? That's one HUGE reason I voted for Obama and I don't understand why that concept (a) isn't popular, and (b) frightens so many.

[MichiganVote]

1. I'm good with it.

[bluestateguy]

2. If we had single payer, the tax increase on the rich would be smaller

Because then everybody would pay a little more in payroll taxes.

[stuball111]

3. Greed...

If I made say, 2 million a year, I'd gladly give a few hundred grand to the country that allowed me to make the money in the first place. As long as I had a roof over my head, some shorts and flip flops, food in the fridge, and.... toilet paper...

[global1]

7. Exactly - I'd Be Happy That I Lived In A Country Where I Had The Opportunity To Make A Million......

dollars and wouldn't have a problem of putting some of that back into the system as it would probably make me more money. To me it is the 'patriotic' thing to do. I think it is unpatriotic to not pay taxes and put some money back into the system. The only money the rich put back into the system is that which gets them some sort of tax break - so they can maximize the amount they keep. Greed and lack of patriotism is the problem.

I don't even come near to making a million - but I do make a decent living. I don't mind paying taxes so the less advantaged can benefit. I feel patriotic and it is good 'karma'.

[stuball111]

11. Right on!

Couldn't have said it better, but as you can see, the people most against taxes claim to be the most patriotic! Unreal how twisted their thinking gets! AND it's also a very "Christian" thing to do

[global1]

20. If We Were Repugs And The Tables Were Turned On This Issue......

we'd find a way to embarrass and belittle the people that claim to be patriotic and are most against taxes. Why can't the Dems make an issue out of this - rich people are unpatriotic because they don't want to give back to the country that made them rich.

[stuball111]

22. Perhaps most "liberals" like us

are a bit further evolved, and have a bit more compassion for stupid people..But it IS unpatriotic to demonize taxes. They use it to appeal to greed, selfishness, and partisanship.

[TellTheTruth82]

27. ahh, but the issue is

how much taxes to pay? Those making millions pay millions - I forget the exact statistics, but those who make over a million pay some 95% of the taxes in this county (and they hold less than 80% of the wealth). The problem is what is fair. And don't hold up liberals as not opposed to it - if you check their tax returns (some have been publicly released - like those in office) are just as bad as Republicans when it comes to paying. (I'm sorta leaning to a flat tax as a disclaimer)

[okieinpain]

29. I don't think it should go over 45%.

[babylonsister]

4. Nothing. Senator Kerry is floating something that might fly...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6125713&mesg_id=6125713

The Kerry Alternative


I think this is the way to go. Some people are very rich and shouldn't have a problem with this. If they do, we should all take names.

[Uben]

5. The last eight years?

More like the last thirty years. The only way to reverse the flow of wealth is through taxation. It is inevitable, but the rich refuse to accept it. They just want to continue to build their wealth until there are only the rich and the poor.

[imdjh]

6. Let's bring it down to earth.

You and I are both computer technicians who make $20/hr or about $40K each per year working for Supertech.

At 5PM you go home, go to the gym, hang out with your friends, watch a little TV and go to bed.
At 5PM I go to my second job at Mastertech and work until 10PM to pull in an extra $20K per year.

Let's say that your tax RATE is 15% on your $40K. Should I pay a higher tax RATE because my extra work bumps me up into a higher tax bracket?

[oldtime dfl_er]

8. I'm self employed

As a self employed artist, last year I made xxxx. I paid 30% of that in taxes. On top of that, I don't qualify for unemployment when my income tanks (as it will this year), nor do I get a break on health or dental insurance.

I don't like paying that much in tax, but that's the way it is. I think if I made $100,000,000 I would be happy to pay, oh, 10%, which would be almost 10 million. But we all know that anyone who makes 100 million dollars a year pays close to nothing in tax.

<edited by me because I'd rather not leave my income info out there>

[imdjh]

9. I don't think you answered the question.

I would like to think that if I made millions of dollars per year, I would be so blissfully happy that paying out a hefty chunk would be my gift to the world. But I don't make millions of dollars a year, which is why I wanted to bring it down to a simple formula and question.

Should I pay a higher percentage of my labor/wages in taxes because I work harder than another person?

[stuball111]

14. In your case...

I would agree with you... you don't make that much more. and your tax bracket should be somehow based on the hours you put in as well. I work sometimes 70 hrs a week, and am in a higher tax bracket, and it pisses me off sometimes how much they take. I'd like to see a 5% tax bracket for people making under 100grand, and have it jump up sharply after that, say 20%, and then after say a million, it should be about 40% right to the top. We'd be rolling in dough, lower income people would have more to spend, and the rich would still be able to afford fur coats.

[oldtime dfl_er]

17. Maybe not but

Im not talking about you. YOu probably pay your "fair share". I'm talking about millionaires, billionaires and zillionaires who don't pay jack. Who for most of the last 30 years have seen their "fair share" dwindle down to nothing. That's the question I'm asking. I'm not asking if someone who works harder should pay "more". I'm asking what is wrong with getting the taxes on the rich to some kind of PARITY with the taxes we hard working people ACTUALLY do pay.

There seems to be some kind of fear of addressing this issue inside the beltway. I am getting really angry.. I WANT THE WEALTHY TO PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE.

[stuball111]

32. Ditto...

Got it, we are on the same page... I agree...

[handmade34]

13. your point is very relevent

I may pay close to 30% (and I do not complain) but that $10,000 out of $30,000 (leaving me $20,000 net) is a whole lot different than 50% of $2,000,000 leaving the person with $1,000,000 net.

[MercutioATC]

15. If you're paying 30% in federal income tax, fire your CPA.

Unless that's your adjusted gross income AND your spouse has an AGI of over $150k/year, you're paying WAY too much.

By my calculations, you should have paid about $8700 in federal income taxes last year on YOUR income. That's a little less than 18%.

[handmade34]

18. just a hyperbolic example

[oldtime dfl_er]

19. I pay a "penalty" for being self employed

And that comes out to about 15% extra. That's how it is for the self employed.

[MercutioATC]

21. 9% "extra", but I get your drift...and, including FICA your math is correct.

I pay 6.2% in FICA (which isn't "federal income tax", but it IS a tax).

You pay 15.3%, but you get to deduct half of that 15.3% from your AGI.

That would reduce your AGI by roughly $3,750...so you pay about $7,500 in FICA, but you reduce your federal income tax burden to roughly %7,500...for a total of about $15k...or about 30%


HOWEVER....

My AGI is about $150k/year. My federal income tax burden is $35,700...almost 24%. Additionally, I pay FICA an the first $106k of my earnings, which is another $6,200 and change. The total is about $42k...which is about 28% of my income. If the FICA cap was removed I'd pay another $3,100 in FICA, bringing my total federal income tax/FICA payments to 30% of my income.

...so we'd be paying the same percentage even with you paying 9% more in FICA (because you're self-employed) if the FICA cap was lifted.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. Do you honestly believe that someone who makes $100 mil in income doesn't pay any tax?

[DonCoquixote]

12. Ok, I'll bite

First off, considering that much of computer technology, especially the internet, is maintained by the government, you do owe the Government some of that money, because their work is what enables you to have a job. You want to encourage governments to invest in infrastructure, because, contrary to what our friends on the right say, it is advanced infrastructure that attracts and sustains jobs. You want an example, Florida offered low tax rates to companies, but all of them pulled out, why, because they got sick of old roads, bad schools, and low bandwidth internet. It used to be you could say "well, you can't get good infrastructure in China. Well,guess what, Beijing installed fiberoptic line whose bandwidth makes most of America look slow, and alternatives to car travel. Beijing listened. Sorry to say, private business does not build infrastructure, some things are bigger than the private sector.

Second, I do not know if in your example, you have to work to feed a large family. Granted, government programs like what they have in Europe would go a long way to making sure said kids actually got Fed, but let's say you are just working more because you want that extra cash. Sorry to say, that is not always a good thing. Let's omit the fact that the high stress will wreck your health, the fact is, with the exception of small business (that makes local wealth and jobs for a community) working 40+ hours for the corporations can actually be a very bad thing for democracy.

WHAT YOU SAY?

Take a look at other democracies, where people have the time and freedom to actually engage in the process. The corporations know that if they keep people working every hour they can, said workers will be tired and easily led about. There is a reason that the Corporations fought the 40 hour work week, and why they still are doing their best to undermine it, because the more they can keep you running about, the easily they can manipulate you, which means they can manipulate the whole country. Is it any accident that the GOP is strongest in places where working more than 40 hours a weeks for low, non-union wages is considered a good thing?

[handmade34]

16. I don't think anyone is suggesting that someone

who makes $60,000/year is wealthy and that we should continue with the same tax schedule

[bowens43]

25. yes. nt

[imdjh]

28. Why do you feel that way?

And what is the societal message if harder work is punished by a higher tax rate?

[handmade34]

10. higher tax rates for the weathy is ok by me

it would encourage reinvestment in business and create more revenue to fund needed community projects and health care and infrastructure...and I believe still leave the ones accustomed to a higher standard of living able to maintain most of their lifestyle choices. Many middle/low income voters have been deluded into thinking "if I work hard, I can be rich too" (unfortunately, that same delusional protestant work ethic convinces people that if they don't make it, it is something wrong with them)

I try to wrap my head around these concepts and what I come up with is questioning the origin of the 'wealth' that the wealthy have. Did they work harder than me? I can't imagine that they did. I many times have worked 2-3 jobs at a time. I have done hard labor that caused me to go home exhausted every night and only be able to drop into bed. I have saved money, I have started my own business, I have done everything I physically and emotional can and I am not 'wealthy'(oh, I choose the wrong parents and quite possibly the wrong occupation - but don't we need teachers and farmers??) We are neck deep in that stuff I used to shovel out of the gutter- that stuff has been with us even before this country was founded and although we have seen ups and downs, history is filled with stories of what is oppressive, demeaning and wrong with our class system. I have ranted against some of the negatives that come with technology, but have come to understand what a powerful tool it is in providing easy access to information that we can use to our benefit. Unfortunately, habits die hard.

[gwashington2650]

23. Nothing

After all, they make the most money.

[bowens43]

24. Nothing is wrong with it.....

the more you have the greater your share of the tax burden should be.

[stray cat]

26. Whats wrong with raising taxes on all of us? (the same answer - we want to keep our income

as much as possible and income gets spent increasing the economy

[harvey007]

30. Wealthy Congressmen Don't Want To Tax The Rich For Health Care Reform

And what's more disgusting is when so-called "liberals" sign on to letters like this:

The top signor, Democrat Rep. Jared Polis of Boulder, Colorado, is the third wealthiest member of Congress....

http://thehill.com/images/stories/news/2009/july/polis%20health%20care%20reform%20surcharge%20letter.pdf

[oldtime dfl_er]

31. thats right!

They're concealing it under the false premise of the "small business" getting shafted. It's insane.