So, here's a follow up on the "You lie!" incident.

[YewNork]

Here is the text that led to the outburst:

President Obama: "There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This too is false.
The reforms..... the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

Rep. Wilson: "You lie!"


So, I had a discussion this morning with my right leaning friend, who is against reform, about what happened and what his opinion was on it.

Pro Reform: "It was plain and simple wrong for Wilson to do what he did. A member of the House of Representatives does not call the president a liar to his face when he's addressing Congress".

Anti Reform: "You're right. What he did wasn't right. But, I tend to agree with his opinion."

Pro Reform: "Why? In HR 3200 there's a section that says that people who are not legally in the US are not eligble to receive financial assistance from the government to purchase health insurance."

Anti Reform: "Yeah, but there's nothing in the bill to prevent illegal aliens from buying health insurance."

Pro Reform: "You mean, buying private health insurance on their own?"

Anti Reform: "Yes. An illegal alien would still be able to buy health insurance. He'd just have to pay for it all himself.

Pro Reform: "But they could do that today. If an illegal wanted to buy insurance today, there's little to stop him."

Anti-Reform: Plus, there's nothing proposed to prevent an illegal alien from buying insurance on the, so called, health insurance exchange."

Pro Reform: "But that insurance is not subsidized in any way. They'd have to pay the market price for insurance, which is what they'd have to do now."

Anti Reform: "But it would give them a place to buy it. And, doesn't Obama claim that his reforms will make private health insurance more affordable for people who want to buy it, and it will eliminate exclusions for pre-existing conditions."

Pro Reform: "Yes, that's the theory."

Anti Reform: "So, that means that private insurance is expected to become less expensive for anyone who wants to buy it. And there will be nothing to prevent illegal aliens from buying private health insurance. That's why I think the president is lying, because there's nothing that restricts this newly affordable insurance from illegal aliens.

Pro Reform: "But that's not what opponents are claiming. They're saying that illegal aliens will be able to get assistance from the government to pay for health insurance. That won't happen.
The president's statement was that the reforms he's proposing would not apply to illegals. He's talking about the fact the reforms that would provide assistance for people who can't afford insurance "

Anti Reform: "That's not what he said. He said his reforms would not apply to people here illegally. If they can buy private insurance after his reforms go into effect, and the insurance is more affordable
due to these reforms, then his reforms do provide illegals with insurance. If Obama really meant what he said, there would be a section in his reforms stating that illegal aliens would not be allowed to buy any health insurance."

Pro Reform: "Sure, and I can just hear the reaction from conservatives when they'd be told that they have to present proof of citizenship any time they enroll in health insurance."

(At this point we agreed to disagree)

[lapfog_1]

1. By his logic...

Every clinic in American that has foreigners purchasing health care from our doctors and hospitals should be arrested.

[Richard D]

2. Mit der Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergebens n/t

[MadMaddie]

3. Wow!! That conversation makes your head spin...

I had a similar conversation today too...

[aquart]

4. Didn't the Republicans TRY to put that in?

That Americans would have to prove citizenship to get insurance?

Have they told the insurance companies that they aren't allowed to take money from Mexicans? Because right now, they're getting none, since the Mexicans have health care at home. So I hear.

[whosinpower]

5. Okay - this boggles

totally boggles. Let's break this down. If we have a group of individuals who all pay - out of their own pocket - x amount of dollars per month for insurance....the more individuals who pay in HELP that insurance fund/pool pay what it needs to provide payment for services. Fundamentally - it does not matter whether you are American, or greek, or german.....it all goes into the pool - and keeping the pool solvent....keeping the cost of premiums reasonable -REQUIRES a large group of people.

It would be different if that pool of insurance funds was SUBSIDIZED by taxpayer dollars - but we are talking privately run insurance. Privately run insurance is not subsidized by taxpayer dollars - is it?

Best case scenario for insurance companies - is if all 400 million people enrolled in their plan - paid their premium and received healthcare.....think of how ROBUST that pool of funds would be....oh wait....that would eliminate competition that capitalist/free marktet thinking requires keeping costs low and competitive....and yet...there is an arguement that this would mean each individual pool of funds would not be so big - and then premiums would theoretically be higher......profits have to come from somewhere. But - we see the writing on the wall here -in the case of healthcare insurance - the market thinking went wrong - premiums have risen/skyrocketed in spite of competition. There is a flaw in this - because with small pools of funds - premiums HAVE to be high in order to make the payouts. Single payer - universal healthcare is the most cost effective way. The proof is in the crisis the US faces. I am not suggesting that competition is bad - it is effective in "keeping them honest and providing choice", however I think, in this instance, spreading out the pools instead of one universal one is more expensive in the long run.

Thing of it is - 100 percent of people paying into insurance do not use it all the time - they pay, and they pay, and they pay - and when the time comes that they do need it - it is supposed to be there for them.

[Bolo Boffin]

6. Jesus does not know these people. n/t