Harvard researcher: Autism may be "chronic disease" that is "reversible."

[pnwmom]

According to Dr. Martha Herbert, newer research on autism is changing is changing the medical model of the disorder. She no longer believes that it is hard-wired before birth, rather that autism may be a chronic disease process that affects the brain. If that is true, then it may well be treatable -- or avoidable.

http://www.alternative-therapies.com/at/web_pdfs/herber...

Martha Herbert, MD, is an assistant professor of Neurology at
Harvard Medical School, a pediatric neurologist at Massachusetts
General Hospital (MGH) in Boston, a member of the MGH Center
for Morphometric Analysis, and an affi liate of the Harvard-MIT-
MGH Martinos Center for Biomedical Imaging. She is director of the
Treatment Research and Neuroscience Evaluation of
Neurodevelopmental Disorders (TRANSCEND) Research Program.
Dr Herbert earned her medical degree at the Columbia University
College of Physicians and Surgeons. She holds a doctoral degree from
the University of California, Santa Cruz, where she studied evolution
and development of learning processes in biology and culture in the
History of Consciousness program and then did postdoctoral work in
the philosophy and history of science. She trained in pediatrics at
Cornell University Medical Center and in neurology and child neurol-
ogy at MGH. For her neuroimaging research and its implications, she
received the fi rst Cure Autism Now Innovator Award. She is co-chair
of the Environmental Health Advisory Board of the Autism Society of
America (ASA) and directs ASA’s Treatment Guided Research
Initiative (TGRI). Some of her papers are available on her website,
www.marthaherbert.com .





SNIP

"But my work over the years has led me to question the strongly held assumption that autism is a neuro-developmental disorder that is wired in before you’re born, a “static encephalopathy.” The “static encephalopathy,” hard-wired assumption is certainly entrancing. It sort of makes sense because after all, autism does start early, and it sure seems like a life sentence. Even so, I began to realize that there are alternatives to the ways some of the findings being used to support this idea are being interpreted. For example, some brain studies looked at tissue in people who died and saw cellular changes that looked like they probably happened before the individual was born. But this was an interpretation of the arrangement of cells. One example is tightly packed cells in the limbic system; another example is changes in the brain stem. These brain tissue changes were found in less than a dozen brains each. So on the basis of a small number of brains, global inferences were made that this must have all happened in the third to fourth week of gestation or the 30th week of gestation. This interpretation became a “fact” that actively blocked funding of postnatal processes in autism—I have watched this blocking occur in grant review processes.

SNIP

More recently my group’s finding regarding the distribution of white matter enlargement has been pursued by my colleague Carlos Pardo, a neurologist and neuropathologist at Johns Hopkins, who had already demonstrated activated microglia and activated astroglia in brain tissue from autistic individuals—these are signs of innate immune activation. After reading my paper localizing white matter enlargement, he went back and stained tissue in the same distribution as the areas I’d measured, and he detected cellular changes consistent with immune activation in the same parts of white matter where I had detected volumetric enlargement. This suggests that this white matter enlargement may be related to immune activation, which may be driving brain enlargement and impairing brain function.

Dr Pardo’s findings of brain immune activation completely change the playing field of what is relevant to how autism works. In other words, if that’s going on, then you have an ongoing chronic- disease process. There may or may not be early wiring changes, but you have an ongoing chronic-disease process. And that’s a totally different ball game from what we’ve been thinking about autism— it adds a whole extra axis to the dimensions in which we need to characterize the condition. To flesh out the implications of these chronic changes in autism, I wrote a paper called “Autism: A Brain Disorder or a Disorder That Affects the Brain?” More recently I coauthored an article with my neurobiologist and neuropathologist colleague, Matt Anderson, about this called, “An Expanding Spectrum of Autism Models: From Fixed Developmental Defects to Reversible
Functional Impairments,” that will come out next spring in a volume edited by Andrew Zimmerman, a close colleague of Carlos Pardo’s and an important pioneer in immune system research in autism. It’s premature to say that the earlier model of fixed wiring deficits is wrong. But it is not premature to say that there are things going on later that could actively influence the level and type of functioning of the brain—all kinds of cellular changes that would affect the synapses and the blood fl ow and other things that can manifest as problem behaviors, either in addition to or even instead of early wiring diagram alterations.

SNIP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Weren't you just complaining about the term "anti-vaccer?"

And now you're posting this shit?

[sandnsea]

2. Why is this shit? n/t

[pnwmom]

3. Some people have difficulty processing new or conflicting information.

So it all comes out as "shit."

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. There is no new information. Or any information whatsoever.

Herbert has no scientific publications to support what she's claiming.

She's even alleging a conspiracy theory as to why she can't get funding.

That should have been your first clue.

[mzmolly]

15. "She's even alleging a conspiracy theory as to why she can't get funding."

"She's even alleging a conspiracy theory as to why she can't get funding.

That should have been your first clue."

Actually, it should clue you in.

Marcia Angell, former head of the NEMJ, has written about this very problem:

http://www.mindfully.org/Health/Academic-Medicine-Sale18may00.htm

In this editorial, I wish to discuss the extent to which academic medicine has become intertwined with the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries, and the benefits and risks of this state of affairs. Bodenheimer, in his Health Policy Report elsewhere in this issue of the Journal, (5) provides a detailed view of an overlapping issue — the relations between clinical investigators and the pharmaceutical industry.

The ties between clinical researchers and industry include not only grant support, but also a host of other financial arrangements. Researchers serve as consultants to companies whose products they are studying, join advisory boards and speakers' bureaus, enter into patent and royalty arrangements, agree to be the listed authors of articles ghostwritten by interested companies, promote drugs and devices at company-sponsored symposiums, and allow themselves to be plied with expensive gifts and trips to luxurious settings. Many also have equity interest in the companies.

Although most medical schools have guidelines to regulate financial ties between their faculty members and industry, the rules are generally quite relaxed and are likely to become even more so. For some years, Harvard Medical School prided itself on having unusually strict guidelines. For example, Harvard has prohibited researchers from having more than $20,000 worth of stock in companies whose products they are studying. (6) But now the medical school is in the process of softening its guidelines. Those reviewing the Harvard policy claim that the guidelines need to be modified to prevent the loss of star faculty members to other schools. The executive dean for academic programs was reported to say, "I'm not sure what will come of the proposal. But the impetus is to make sure our faculty has reasonable opportunities." (7)

And, Marcia Angell is certainly no right winger.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcia-angell-md/health-reform-throwing-go_b_266596.html

Who is going to pay for this research on autism?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Marcia Angell's also an outspoken critic on nuts like Herbert.

[mzmolly]

18. Well, if that's the case, she's even more credible as it relates to this story. However, I'd

appreciate a link to substantiate your claim, thanks. :hi:

[pnwmom]

44. And she HAS gotten funding. But what she describes is typical of how the

scientific establishment in any field tends to be locked into the status quo -- until there is a major paradigm shift.

Thanks for the article by Marcia Angell. Interesting.

[bobbolink]

67. Excellent, Dr. Angell! Thanks, mzmolly--great find!

This validates a big suspicion of mine re: psychotropic drugs.

Thanks!

[mzmolly]

19. "SCIENTIFIC REVIEW PAPERS"

SCIENTIFIC REVIEW PAPERS

1. Herbert MR. Autism: A Brain disorder or a disorder that affects the brain? Clinical Neuropsychiatry 2005; 2(6):354-79.

2. Herbert MR, Ziegler DA. Volumetric Neuroimaging and Low-Dose Early-Life exposures: Loose Coupling of Pathogenesis-Brain-Behavior Links. Neurotoxicology 2005; 26(4):565-72.

3. Herbert MR. Large brains in autism: the challenge of pervasive abnormality. Neuroscientist 2005; 11(5 ):417-40.

4. Herbert MR, Russo JP, Yang S et al. Autism and environmental genomics. Neurotoxicology 2006; 27(5):671-84.

5. Herbert MR. Neuroimaging in disorders of social and emotional functioning: what is the question? J Child Neurol 2004; 19(10):772-84.

6. Herbert MR. Autism. chapter in: Gilman S. Neurobiology of Disease (textbook). Elsevier, 2006.

7. Herbert MR, Caviness V. Neuroanatomy and Imaging Studies. in: Tuchman R, Rapin I eds. Autism: A neurobiological disorder of early brain development. Mac Keith Press, 2006: Chapter 8 pp. 115-140.

8. Anderson MP, Hooker BS, Herbert MR. Bridging from Cells to Cognition in Autism Pathophysiology: Biological Pathways to Defective Brain Function and Plasticity. Am J Biochem Biotech 2008; 4(2):167-176

TECHNICAL PAPERS

1. Herbert, M.R., D.A. Ziegler, C.K. Deutsch, L.M. O'brien, D.N. Kennedy, P.A. Filipek, A.I. Bakardjiev, J. Hodgson, M. Takeoka, N. Makris, and V.S. Caviness Jr. 2005. Brain asymmetries in autism and developmental language disorder a nested whole-brain analysis. Brain 128213-26

2. Herbert, M.R., D.A. Ziegler, N. Makris, P.A. Filipek, T.L. Kemper, J.J. Normandin, H.A. Sanders, D.N. Kennedy, and V.S. Caviness Jr. 2004. Localization of white matter volume increase in autism and developmental language disorder. Ann Neurol 55530-40

3. Herbert, M.R., D.A. Ziegler, N. Makris, A. Bakardjiev, J. Hodgson, K.T. Adrien, D.N. Kennedy, P.A. Filipek, and V.S. Caviness. 2003. Larger Brain and White Matter Volumes in Children With Developmental Language Disorder. Developmental Science 6F11-F22

4. Herbert, M.R., D.A. Ziegler, C.K. Deutsch, L.M. O'Brien, N. Lange, A. Bakardjiev, J. Hodgson, K.T. Adrien, S. Steele, N. Makris, D. Kennedy, G.J. Harris, and V.S. Caviness. 2003. Dissociations of cerebral cortex, subcortical and cerebral white matter volumes in autistic boys. Brain 1261182-1192.

5. Herbert MR, Harris GJ, Adrien KT et al. Abnormal asymmetry in
language association cortex in autism. Ann Neurol 2002; 52(5):588-96.

SCIENTIFIC REVIEWS FOR THE PUBLIC

'Autism, Health, and the Environment,' San Francisco Medicine. Nov/Dec 2005

'Time To Get a Grip,' Autism Advocate. January 2007

NEWS COVERAGE

'Autism-It's Not Just In the Head,' by Jill Neimark, Discover Magazine, April 2007

[izzybeans]

21. 8 publications by an assistant prof.

is a pretty steady output. I didn't realize Harvard was in the business of hiring loons. :)

[mzmolly]

25. Apparently so.

It's a newer requirement. ;)

[pnwmom]

45. And that doesn't include all the papers by the associate whose work

she refers to in the interview. She's not out there alone.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Do you know what a review paper is?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1723

[mzmolly]

32. Yes do you? You may wish to familiarize yourself with the journals

noted my post.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. And you may want to address the actual point.

Dr. Herbert is, it turns out, a big fan of the idea that autism has something to do with neuroinflammation. Unfortunately, none of her publications persuasively presents evidence for this hypothesis, and lately she’s publishing in bottom-feeding alternative medicine journals articles with titles like Learning From the Autism Catastrophe: Key Leverage Points. Suffice it to say, Dr. Herbert is big on “biomedical” woo, so much so that anti-vaccine propagandist David Kirby likes to cite her and Age of Autism loves her. Unfortunately, for all her grandiose claims that neuroinflammation is a major cause of autism and that mold and other environmental influences trigger it, Dr. Herbert’s publication record does not support these assertions. Go ahead. Head over to PubMed and look at Dr. Herbert’s publication record. I’ll wait. She has listed 15 publications about autism, of which:

-six are review articles

-two are in alt-med journals, and one of these is an interview

-one is a paper with dozens of authors reporting the results of mapping autism risk loci using genetic linkage and chromosomal rearrangements. (Dr. Herbert is solidly right in the middle of the huge pack of authors.)

Of the remainder, Dr. Herbert only appears to be first author or senior author on four publications on autism containing original research, and these appear to be all imaging studies of the brains of autistic children. In other words, Dr. Herbert is making claims far beyond what her publication record in the peer-reviewed literature can, even under the most charitable interpretation possible, support. Nothing in her publication record appears to support her concept of autism being a systemic, rather than brain-based condition. There’s nothing there to support a link between autism and gut disorders; nothing to support a link between autism and immune dysfunction; and nothing to support a link between “environmental influences” and autism. That’s not to say that there aren’t environmental factors that influence the development of autism; it’s just that there’s nothing in Dr. Herbert’s publication record to support such a hypothesis or to identify what, if anything, those environmental factors might be.

[mzmolly]

84. Ah, the goal posts keep moving it seems? At your request, I searched pubmed

Here you are...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16151044?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Dr. Hebert did mention funding issues when it comes to adequate research. However, there is impartial research that supports the hypothesis in question.

www.neuro.jhmi.edu/neuroimmunopath/pdf/4%20Neuroglial%20activation%20and%20neuroinflammation%20in%20the%20brain%20of%20patients%20with%20autism.pdf

Ann Neurol 2005;57:67–81

http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/neuroimmunopath/autism_faqs.htm

"Is there any other evidence to support the presence of neuroinflammation in the brain of autistic patients?

Yes. Our study has also demonstrated the presence of unique profiles of cytokine expression in the brain and CSF of subjects with autism. Two pro-inflammatory chemokines, MCP-1 and TARC, and an anti-inflammatory and modulatory cytokine, TGF-ß1, were consistently elevated in the brain regions studied. MCP-1, a chemokine involved in innate immune reactions and an important mediator for monocyte and T-cell activation, and for trafficking into areas of tissue injury, appeared to be one of the most relevant proteins found in cytokine protein array studies. It was significantly elevated in both brain tissues and CSF. The presence of MCP-1 is of particular interest, since it facilitates the infiltration and accumulation of monocytes and macrophages in inflammatory CNS disease. Our immunocytochemical studies of the cerebral cortex and cerebellum showed that MCP-1 is produced by activated and reactive astrocytes, showing that these cells play an effector role in the disease process in autism. The increased expression of MCP-1 has relevance to the pathogenesis of autism as we believe its elevation in the brain is linked to microglial activation and perhaps also to the recruitment of additional macrophages and microglia to areas of neurodegeneration, such as those we observed in the cerebellum

"Immunity, neuroglia and neuroinflammation in autism"

http://www.jneuroinflammation.com/content/5/1/52

We'll have to add the Annals of Neurology, Johns Hopkins, the Journal of Neuroinflammation and apparently Harvard, to that "quack science" list you mention.

Regarding David Kirby, he's responded to the "anti-vaccine" label. Thus, I'll let him respond to your absurd assertion in his own words:

The reason I get upset at being called "anti-vaccine" is that, A), it's untrue, and B), I do think vaccines are important. And I think we can vaccinate more safely than we do in this country. But the label is used as a weapon. It is used as a tool against people like me. And even though it's a lie, it is so much easier to dismiss somebody if you think that they're anti-vaccine. "He's a kook. He's a nut. He doesn't know what he's talking about."

And now we're into the rhetoric that has gotten so heated that people like me are called "pro-disease." It's like Karl Rove is writing the playbook for these people. Because it's gotten that political, it's gotten that nasty. So, I'm going to fight back against that label.

This is not an "anti-vaccine conference." There's a discussion tonight about athletics in autism, and one on relationships in autism.

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/notes-from-the-big-anti-v_b_209506.html

[pnwmom]

86. Thank you, mzmolly, for your work putting this together. n/t

[mzmolly]

89. No problem.

I'm quite tired but I hope I'm making sense?

[Chemisse]

128. It is really intriguing information

It's funny how inflammation keeps coming up as the villain in various areas of medicine.

[mzmolly]

150. I agree.

Inflammation appears to be an area of great interest of late. :hi:

[pnwmom]

87. Thank you, mzmolly, for your work putting this together. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. Moving goal posts? No, same one as always.

From the post you originally replied to:

"Herbert has no scientific publications to support what she's claiming."

You should slow down and read.

"We'll have to add the Annals of Neurology, Johns Hopkins, the Journal of Neuroinflammation and apparently Harvard, to that "quack science" list you mention."

John Hopkins, Ann. Neurol, and J. Neuroinflamm. have nothing to do with the pseudoscience claims she's making.

As for Harvard, let me know when they give her tenure.

Who the fuck is David Kirby?

"The reason I get upset at being called "anti-vaccine" is that, A), it's untrue, and B), I do think vaccines are important. And I think we can vaccinate more safely than we do in this country. But the label is used as a weapon. It is used as a tool against people like me. And even though it's a lie, it is so much easier to dismiss somebody if you think that they're anti-vaccine. "He's a kook. He's a nut. He doesn't know what he's talking about."

If he's spreading lies about vaccines, then he's anti-vaccines.

[mzmolly]

96. Apparently you did not click on the links?

For example ...

Note the title John's Hopkins ~ "Neuroglial Activation and Neuroinflammation in the Brain of Patients with Autism"

From ~ Published in: journal International Review of Psychiatry, Volume 17, Issue 6 December 2005 , pages 485 - 495
per the informaworld link.

Abstract

Autism is a complex neurodevelopmental disorder of early onset that is highly variable in its clinical presentation. Although the causes of autism in most patients remain unknown, several lines of research support the view that both genetic and environmental factors influence the development of abnormal cortical circuitry that underlies autistic cognitive processes and behaviors. The role of the immune system in the development of autism is controversial. Several studies showing peripheral immune abnormalities support immune hypotheses, however until recently there have been no immune findings in the CNS. We recently demonstrated the presence of neuroglial and innate neuroimmune system activation in brain tissue and cerebrospinal fluid of patients with autism, findings that support the view that neuroimmune abnormalities occur in the brain of autistic patients and may contribute to the diversity of the autistic phenotypes. The role of neuroglial activation and neuroinflammation are still uncertain but could be critical in maintaining, if not also in initiating, some of the CNS abnormalities present in autism. A better understanding of the role of neuroinflammation in the pathogenesis of autism may have important clinical and therapeutic implications.

And from the Journal of Neuroinflammation 2008, 5:52doi:10.1186/1742-2094-5-52

Conclusion

Our results indicate the presence of a distinct subset of ASD children. This subset, the ASD-test group, is characterized by frequent infections and by recurrent loss of previously acquired cognitive skills with worsening behavioral symptoms following infection. Clinical features of this subset were not associated with atopy, asthma, FA, or PID in this study but may be associated with altered TLR responses important for neuro-immune interactions.

Regarding David Kirby, he disagrees with you, that does not make him a liar.

Peace :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

101. I saw it, but it doesn't address my point.

The papers don't say what you think they say.

"Regarding David Kirby, he disagrees with you, that does not make him a liar."

That's right. David Kirby disagreeing with me does not make him a liar.

Denying that he's not an anti-vaccer makes David Kirby a liar.

Trying to connect vaccines with autism makes David Kirby a liar.

[mzmolly]

103. The papers say exactly what I think they

say.

Regarding Mr. Kirby, I'll allow his words comparing people like you to Karl Rove, do all the talking on the subject of his credibility.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. What do you think they say?

Because it's got nothing to do with autism being caused by mold or vanilla airfresheners or allergies or anything of the sort she's talking about in the OP.

"Regarding Mr. Kirby, I'll allow his words comparing people like you to Karl Rove, do all the talking on the subject of his credibility."

Well, if you're going to let anti-vaccers like Kirby speak for you it's your loss.

[mzmolly]

109. What do you think I think they say? I don't recall mentioning vanilla air fresheners?

I also think the quotes I noted from the medical literature are self explanatory? So, save that superiority complex for someone else eh? :eyes:

I'll spell it out if you wish - the papers essentially indicate that http://www.springerlink.com/content/u0h1106324tn659v/">neuro-inflammation may be a factor in the pathogenesis of autism. Think Hannah Poling for example.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. Problem is, that's got nothing to do with the claims in the OP.

:shrug:

[mzmolly]

112. It does if

there is an immune response triggered by XYZ. Edited to add, if a mechanism can be located for various individuals, treatment options may lead to a reversal of "disease".

Peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. Sure. If.

But you just made that "if" up.

[mzmolly]

114. I think that's all the Dr. is saying

at this point?

Autism may be "chronic disease" that is "reversible."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

115. Yeah, she's making shit up too. That's the point.

It's not science. It's pseudoscience. Woo woo.

Autism may be demon possesion and reversible by exorcisms.

This is why lowly lab techs can make fun of quacks like Herbert.

[mzmolly]

118. Hannah Poling is a real

person, and there are certainly more like her.

In this case google is your friend "autism and neuroinflammation" returns far more hits than your strawman above. You can also try "autism and immune response" if you prefer?

I'm out. Cheers! :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Hannah Poling has nothing to do with autism.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=66

Even though she's the darling of the anti-vaccers.

[mzmolly]

122. Laughable, yet tragic as some are so easily misled.

The parents of a 9-year-old girl with autism said Thursday that their assertion that her illness was caused by childhood vaccines has been vindicated by the federal government's decision to compensate them.

"We are very pleased with the government's decision," Hannah Poling's father, Dr. Jon Poling, a neurologist in private practice in Athens, Georgia, told reporters Thursday. "It has been eight difficult and heartbreaking years since our daughter's injury."

...

In 2002, the couple filed their case with what is known as the vaccine court, alleging that the vaccines caused her autism.

In addition, she was diagnosed with a disorder of the mitochondria, the powerhouses of the cell, Jon Poling said.

The fact that his wife also has the disorder yet displays no signs of autism suggests that his daughter's symptoms are not genetically caused, he said.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

125. If I choke on a piece of broccoli...

pass out, and hit my head on a table...

then I come to in a hospital because the paramedics and doctors resuscitated me...

but because of a lack of oxygen I end up with mild brain damage which includes autism-like symptoms...

that does not mean broccoli causes cancer.

Hannah Poling does not have autism. She's got an unrelated condition which includes autism-like symptoms.

[mzmolly]

126. I'll allow your distorted analogy to speak for itself.

And I'll defer to Hannah Poling's family her Doctor to speak to her condition, which is in fact, autism. By the way, her father is a neurologist and her mother is an RN).

Edited due to type-o.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. And they're all a bunch of exploitative fucks.

And you're again falling back on argument from authority.

[mzmolly]

129. I hate to be the one to break this to you,

but Doctors and more importantly neurologists are the scientific "authorities" who diagnose autism.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

131. They're also ones who misdiagnose autism.

Particularly when frivolous litigation is involved.

But in the case of Hannah Poling, the one that anti-vaccers such as yourself love to cite- the court didn't conclude that a vaccine gave Hannah Poling autism, but a condition with autism-like symptoms.

But we're just retreading old ground here.

[mzmolly]

133. Autism IS a set of symptoms.

Yes indeed, re-treading. :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. Yes, but you're splitting hairs.

See the broccoli analogy.

[mzmolly]

141. See the

bologna analogy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. See it? Analogy? Hell.

Baloney's all you're serving up.

[mzmolly]

146. You're no longer

worth my time. Cheerio. :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

147. Yeah, you keep saying that.

[mzmolly]

148. I should

have better follow through.

[tigereye]

31. hey, great list, thanks!

Love to see analyses by folks who really understand the brain...

[Jim__]

154. "Herbert has no scientific publications to support what she's claiming." - Really?????

A claim by Herbert in the interview:

More recently my group’s finding regarding the distribution of white matter enlargement has been pursued by my colleague Carlos Pardo, a neurologist and neuropathologist at Johns Hopkins, who had already demonstrated activated microglia and activated astroglia in brain tissue from autistic individuals—these are signs of innate immune activation. After reading my paper localizing white matter enlargement, he went back and stained tissue in the same distribution as the areas I’d measured, and he detected cellular changes consistent with immune activation in the same parts of white matter where I had detected volumetric enlargement. This suggests that this white matter enlargement may be related to immune activation, which may be driving brain enlargement and impairing brain function.

The abstract of a paper that appeared in the April 2004 issue in the Annals of Neurology with Herbert listed as the lead author:

Increased brain volume in autism appears to be driven mainly by an unexplained white matter enlargement, and we have reported a similar phenomenon in developmental language disorder (DLD). Localization of this enlargement would strongly guide research into its cause, tissue basis, and functional implications. We utilized a white matter parcellation technique that divides cerebral white matter into an outer zone containing the radiate compartment and an inner zone containing sagittal and bridging system compartments. In both high-functioning autism and DLD, enlargement localized to the radiate white matter (all lobes in autism, all but parietal in DLD), whereas inner zone white matter compartments showed no volume differences from controls. Furthermore, in both autism and DLD, later or longer-myelinating regions showed greater volume increases over controls. Neither group showed cerebral cortex, corpus callosum, or internal capsule volume differences from control. Radiate white matter myelinates later than deep white matter; this pattern of enlargement thus is consistent with striking postnatal head circumference percentile increases reported in autism. These findings suggest an ongoing postnatal process in both autism and DLD that is probably intrinsic to white matter, that primarily affects intrahemispheric and corticocortical connections, and that places these two disorders on the same spectrum.

This scientific publication directly supports Herbert's claim.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Herbert's a fucking loon. As woo as a person can get.

http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2006/10/cool-stuff-and-not-cool-stuff.html

[Maru Kitteh]

7. From the comments at that link (thanks for the link, btw)

Blogger notmercury said...

I recognize a few of those Bozos.

Thanks for the links to the art thing. I can't wait to watch it when I can find a large enough block of time.

OK, I'm going to examine your brain now. Hold still please
8:45 AM
Blogger notmercury said...

See, that didn't hurt a bit. May I say that you have an amazing amygdala and a stunningly substantial substantia nigra. That's where your dark thoughts come from I bet.
8:51 AM

Brain humor! I love it. :rofl:

[sandnsea]

11. Is that all?

Because it looks as if a court case was misrepresented as having something to do with autism when it didn't. It looks as if Herbert was testifying about a child's reaction to chemicals in that case.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. No.

[mzmolly]

17. Well if "Autism Diva" (who is a lab tech) say so, it must be true.

:sarcasm:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Argument from authority.

George W. Bush got a degree from Harvard.

That doesn't mean anything either.

[mzmolly]

29. LOL

Humorous...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Indeed.

Woos love quacks from Harvard.

[mzmolly]

69. Well, not everyone is as credentialed as your lab

tech.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. I'm not claiming her credentials as a strength of her arguments.

You're having a hard time figuring out how this all works, aren't you?

[mzmolly]

91. You noted the lab tech in question as a source regarding

the Dr. Hebert's is a "loon" theory. I merely noted the fact that an autistic lab technician is not in a position of particular authority, whereas an Assistant Professor of Neurology at Harvard Medical School is.

Dr. Herbert earned her medical degree at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons. Prior to her medical training she obtained a doctoral degree at the University of California, Santa Cruz, studying evolution and development of learning processes in biology and culture in the History of Consciousness program, and then did postdoctoral work in the philosophy and history of science.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. Yes, but not because she's a lab tech.

"I merely noted the fact that an autistic lab technician is not in a position of particular authority, whereas an Assistant Professor of Neurology at Harvard Medical School is."

And that's the flaw in your logic. You're saying Herbert is right because she's from Harvard, whereas that person is wrong because she's just a lowly lab tech.

Argument from authority.

[mzmolly]

97. I like my argument

just fine thanks. ;)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. Yes, obviously. You keep making it.

Even though you're wrong.

[mzmolly]

100. Whateves you sayz...

:crazy:

[pnwmom]

108. LOL. n/t

[mzmolly]

110. For some reason

I picture an individual who cleans rat cages proclaiming themselves an "expert" ? LOL

[KittyWampus]

55. you have had your ass handed to you so many times. It's hilarious YOU are the one bringing up

"Argument from authority"

YOU ARE THE ONE DOING IT

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. "YOU ARE THE ONE DOING IT"

No. If I were arguing from authority I'd be saying things like "I have a PhD and I'm from Harvard and therefore I'm right." I'm not doing that. I'm not arguing from authority.

Shit, the OP's even started with "Harvard Researcher..."

"you have had your ass handed to you so many times."

Name one time.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

151. No you are. This is one time right now.

Congressional Testimony of Bernard Rimland, Ph.D., November 19, 2003
AUTISM IS TREATABLE!

Thank you for inviting me to participate in these
important hearings on the crucial need for more
effective treatments for autistic children.

I am Bernard Rimland, Ph.D. My Ph.D. is in experimental
psychology and research design. My specialty
is research methodology. I have been a full-time research
scientist for over 50 years, 45 of those years having been
devoted to a 7-day-a-week search for effective treatments
for autistic children.

My autistic son Mark was born in 1956. At age 5
we were told that he was hopeless and untreatable and
that we should institutionalize him. We did not. He was
still in diapers at age 7 and did not ask or answer a question
until age 8. Today, at age 47, he is an internationally-
recognized artist who has been interviewed on national
TV, including the CBS, CNN and PBS networks
as well as a Japanese television network.

My 1964 book, Infantile Autism, destroyed the prevailing
belief that autism was a psychological disorder,
caused by bad mothering, which could be treated with
psychotherapy for both mother and child. My book also
demolished the myth that mainstream professionals could
be counted upon to base their practices on objective,
scientific evidence, rather than dogma. Even today dogmatic,
rather than pragmatic, beliefs prevail. (See, for
example, the FDA policy on the non-treatability of autism,
which follows.)

Frustrated by the apathy and indifference of the
status quo, I founded the Autism Society of America in
1965, and the Autism Research Institute in 1967, to help
bring about needed change. I founded the Autism Research
Institute for the explicit purpose of determining
the cause of and identifying effective treatments for autism.
I thank you for holding these hearings, which are
40 years overdue.

Today, for the first time in history, there are successfully
treated autistic children — living, breathing,
speaking autistic children — living among us and enjoying
their lives. These mainstreamed children, who
no longer carry the dread label “autistic,” owe their liberation
from autism to treatment modalities which were,
and still are, ridiculed, reviled and rejected by most of
the recognized authorities in the educational and medical
autism establishments. Nevertheless, the new treatment
approaches are rapidly convincing many of the
most skeptical critics.

Many of these recovered autistic children are the
sons and daughters of physicians, conventionally trained
M.D.s who looked at and wisely rejected the sparse and
faulty options offered by conventional medicine. You
can see and hear eight of these enlightened doctors tell
their own stories on videotapes available from the Autism
Research Institute: “Physicians who have successfully
treated their own autistic children.”

These videotapes
were made at panel presentations at the 2001 and
2002 conferences of the Autism Society of America.
The research program of the Autism Research Institute
devotes serious consideration to all forms of treatment
for which there is significant evidence of benefit
to autistic children, including both behavioral and biomedical
approaches.

A major reason for my founding the Autism Society
of America in 1965 was to advance the cause of early
behavioral intervention, commonly known today as
“ABA.” I was firmly convinced by my research that this
form of treatment could bring about remarkable improvement
in many autistic children, despite its rejection by
most professionals who were considered authorities on
autism. Today the mainstream community fully accepts
the value of ABA, although it took well over 20 years
for ABA to receive mainstream acceptance.

Now that the behavioral approach is widely accepted and has
reached the mainstream, we are devoting most of our
efforts to advanced and effective biomedical treatments.
We feel that drugs are not the answer—no child is autistic
because of a deficiency of Ritalin or Risperdal. All
drugs confer significant adverse side effects.
By 1995, the beginnings of what is now widely
recognized as an epidemic of autism were clearly evident.

Also clearly evident was the fact that a great many
autistic children were showing remarkable improvement
that could be attributed to treatments that did not involve
the use of drugs—treatments that were commonly
regarded as “aedge of autism research. The title, Defeat Autism Now!
(DAN!), was a response to the complacency and lack of
urgency that were so evident at NIH, and at the medical
schools, where research on the treatment of autism was
virtually non-existent, except for experimental trials of
various drugs designed for use on adults.

The Defeat Autism Now! movement
has proven extremely successful.
We have recently completed our 12th
DAN! Conference in Portland Oregon,
and the next DAN! Conference is
scheduled for the Washington, DC area
April 16-18, 2004. We also have held
a series of mini-DAN! conferences for
the training of physicians and other
healthcare practitioners, and are developing
a curriculum for teaching nurses
how to implement the DAN! approaches
to diagnosis and successful
treatment of autism. (See
www.AutismResearchInstitute.com or
www.DefeatAutismNow.com.)

There
are at present several hundred DAN!
physicians in the U.S. and some overseas.
Most important, there are thousands of children,
many, as noted above, the sons and daughters of DAN!
physicians, who are no longer diagnosed as autistic and
who have been mainstreamed in their school systems.
The DAN! program is having excellent success!
Despite the obviously good results we are achieving,
there are a great many obstacles to overcome.

One
major obstacle is the obstinate insistence by the Food
and Drug Administration that there is no effective treatment
for autism, and that it is quackery to claim otherwise.
I would like to submit as part of my testimony the
following letter written by myself and Jon Pangborn,
Ph.D. (also the father of an adult autistic son) to Mark
McClelland, M.D., Commissioner of the FDA. Note that
the FDA claims on its website that autism is hopeless
and untreatable, despite a great deal of scientificallydocumented
evidence to the contrary. In our letter of
May 8, 2003 to Dr. McClelland, which has yet to receive
a satisfactory reply, I cite some of the evidence
which disproves the contentions of the FDA policy statement.

For example, I cite, and placed into evidence, 22
published studies, based on research conducted by scientists
in 6 countries, demonstrating that vitamin B6
(usually in combination with the mineral magnesium)
brings about highly significant improvement in autistic
children and adults. Eleven of these studies have been
double-blind, placebo-controlled experiments, and many
have used objective physiological measures, such as improvement
of various electrophysiological indices of
brain function, and the reduction or removal of abnormal
substances in the blood or urine of autistic children.
(My son Mark has been taking 1,000 mg/day of vitamin
B6
each day for 40 years. I doubt that there
is a healthier person on this continent.)
Action is needed!

Let me close with a concrete proposal
and a challenge:

I urge that the Federal Government
undertake the evaluation of autistic children
who have been treated by the doctors
in our Defeat Autism Now! (DAN!)
movement, as compared to children
treated by physicians who adhere to the
conventional, much less effective treatment
modalities.

I propose that the NIH fund immediately,
on a high-priority basis, a
low-cost telephone or mail questionnaire
survey of 1,000 parents of autistic children,
divided into two groups:

Group A. Parents whose autistic children have
been patients, for one year or longer, of 25 DAN!
doctors selected by the Autism Research Institute.
Twenty patients would be selected randomly from the
pool of autistic patients treated by each of the 25 DAN!
doctors.

Group B. Similar to Group A, except that the
children would be from the practices of 25 pediatricians
selected by NIH or the American Academy of
Pediatrics.

The survey would ask for such information as:
1. The child’s symptoms, pre- and post-treatment.
2. Any objective criteria of improvement (e.g.,
mainstreamed? IQ improvement? Speaking? Number of
words/sentences? etc.).
3. The parents’ rating of improvement (10-point
scale).
4. Which treatments were provided?
5. Which treatment modalities have helped the child
most?
The parent responses to questions 1, 2, and 3 would
be analyzed by judges who are blind to whether the patients
were in Group A or Group B. This would be an
excellent launching pad for a long-neglected and longneeded
federal program of research on effective autism
treatments.

The hour is late — let’s move ahead!
There are at present
several hundred DAN!
physicians in the U.S. and
some overseas. Most
important, there are
thousands of children,
many, as noted above, the
sons and daughters of
DAN! physicians, who are
no longer diagnosed as
autistic and who have
been mainstreamed in
their school systems.

The DAN! program is having
excellent success!lternative medicine.” (Much of alternative
medicine is better described as “intelligent medicine.”)

In January, 1995, together with two esteemed
colleagues, pediatrician Sidney M. Baker, M.D., and
chemist Jon Pangborn, Ph.D., whom I regard as the
world’s most knowledgeable experts in the metabolism
of autistic children, I convened the first Defeat Autism
Now! Think-Tank, comprised of approximately 30 carefully-
selected physicians and scientists on the cutting edge of autism research.


AUTISM RESEARCH INSTITUTE • 4182 Adams Avenue, San Diego, CA 92116

[d_r]

14. actually

I've been wondering if myelinization - whether in utero or following birth - was associated with autism. I wonder about low levels of fat esp. omega 3, and oxytocics.

[pnwmom]

46. Which is possibly related to the fact that many autistic people

have malabsorption problems.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim__]

34. What does the OP have to do with vaccines?

I haven't read the entire cited paper because I can't access it right now, but the post itself does not directly reference vaccines. I realize that post does reference a doctor at John Hopkins who is seeing a connection between some brain cell changes in autisitc patients and immune system activation. Are you claiming that this doctor must be anti-vaccine because he sees a possible connection to the immune system? And based on that, because the OP cites a paper that cites this doctor, then the poster must be anti-vaccine?

Based on what is contained in the OP, your claim seems a bit far-fetched.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. OP's trying to assert a vaccine/autism connection.

OP posted this after losing an argument in an anti-vaccine thread. The "researcher" cited in the OP's big in the autism-vaccine woo woo community.

[Jim__]

39. Where in the OP is this connection asserted? - n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Oh, it's not asserted.

[pnwmom]

47. Thank you. He wants to say that I am anti-vaccine because he considers

that anyone who has ever suggested that any fraction of autism cases might be triggered by a person's individual susceptibility to a vaccine ingredient MUST be anti-vaccine. (And yes, because -- as you suggest -- Herbert cites a doctor who is looking into immune system changes in autistic patients.)

I am not anti-vaccine. My children are all fully vaccinated except for one vaccine to which my physician agrees my family is particularly vulnerable. We've all already had our seasonal flu shots for this year -- hardly the action of an "anti-vaxxer."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. No.

I consider you anti-vaccine because you post patent nonsense about vaccines, whether it's gardasil or the phony vaccine-autism connection.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=39206&mesg_id=39215

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1144984

[KT2000]

6. There are a host of illnesses

that are outside the understanding of the medical mainstream. They have overlapping symptoms and similar abnormal test results but present as different illnesses - chronic fatigue, Gulf War Syndrome, chemical sensitivity, fibromyalgia, PTSD, and on and on. These are brain disorders. Some autism may fit into this group as well - for example, the cases that manifest after vaccinations.

They are outside the understanding and acceptance of the medical mainstream because they would have to accept the very serious role that environmental exposures have on the functioning of the brain. They are stuck in the mode of protecting corporations from liability - whether they are aware of it or not.

Someone who is working on this is Martin Pall:
http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/faculty/pall.html

[pnwmom]

8. That link doesn't work for me. Can you check it again, please?

I have a personal interest in this, since there is also controversy related to whether Celiac disease (which is caused by exposure to gluten) is merely a disease of the upper intestine (and sometimes the skin), or whether it affects the brain and other organ systems as well.

[KT2000]

22. New link

I am really sorry about the bad link. It was to his paper describing in more general terms his theory of these diseases. This is a link to a 48 page paper that addresses chemical sensitivity, describing the nitric oxide link. The nitric oxide cycle is is what he proposes sets in motion these many illnesses.

http://www.thecanaryreport.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mcs_pall_2009.pdf

He has written a book called "Explaining Unexplained Illnesses:" Disease Paradigm for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, MCS, Fibromyalgia, PTSD, GWS, and others"
Martin Pall, PhD

I don't know much about celiac other than many who are chemically sensitive (those I know anyway) also have celiac. I will ask around for more info.

[pnwmom]

53. Thanks, KT. I'm allergic to mold, too, so it makes sense to me.

When we discovered the mold in our house and got rid of it, my fibromyalgia symptoms significantly improved. When I was later diagnosed with Celiac, I was expecting to have my GI symptoms improve -- a wonderful bonus was that my fibromyalgia disappeared completely.

[KT2000]

62. That is terrific

about the fibromyalgia disappearing. This site of Pall's explains the various illnesses. You may want to take a look at the down regulation of the nitric oxide cycle and see if that gives you any improvement - other than avoiding the gluten.
A friend who has had to become extreme in handling her celiac but it has helped her very much. She cannot use pans and utensils that have been used with anything containing gluten.

http://thetenthparadigm.org/index.html

[pnwmom]

68. And I bet she has a dedicated toaster, too -- as I do.

Thanks for all the info.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Well said.

Autism is associated with so many non neurological symptoms that it seems stupid to fixate entirely on neuroscience to understand it.

[pnwmom]

10. For example, it is strongly associated with gluten and lactose intolerance.

And gluten intolerance is also linked with auto-immune diseases and certain forms of epilepsy.

[mzmolly]

12. They're catching up with the science

it seems? ;)

In all seriousness, I am glad to see that good medical schools are ignoring the politics and seeking answers. Bravo!

K and R

[librechik]

20. this seems quite hopeful

changing the thought paradigm is often the first step to treatment breakthroughs. All the best to these scientists.

[whoneedstickets]

23. What if there was a vaccine against Autism??

Would the anti-vaccine crowd take it? Now there is a conundrum!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. MMR

Autism's linked to congenital rubella.

Ironic, no?

[pnwmom]

52. What if it turned out that a certain fraction of autism cases

were caused by an individual susceptibility to an ingredient in a vaccine?

Would the "autism is hard-wired" crowd ever acknowledge they might be wrong?

[mzmolly]

98. Are those who've vaccinated their children anti-vaccine?

Because parents who did so, are those who first noted a possible connection between vaccines and adverse health effects like Autism.

[Feron]

24. Aww Geez..

Like homosexuality, the only cure for autism is abortion.

[tigereye]

30. hmm, that's very interesting - would love to read more

I think that the more research that is done, the more information people will have about the process. It's also exciting that so many of the leading neurobiological researchers in this and other areas are women.

[Jim__]

33. Your first link - to alternative-therapies- doesn't work for me - n/t

[pnwmom]

49. Thanks for letting me know! See if this link works. (I just checked and it's working now)

http://www.alternative-therapies.com/at/web_pdfs/herbert_long.pdf


(I also checked the link in the OP and it also works now. It must be an intermittent problem, because I had a problem with it a minute ago, too.)

[Jim__]

94. That works. Thanks.

[Odin2005]

38. This is Bullshit. This woman is a hack of the bigoted "pro-cure" organizations.

I don't need to be "cured", you morons.

[pnwmom]

48. This woman isn't a hack; she is highly qualified and well respected in the field.

And no one is suggesting that you in particular need to be cured.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. She's well respected in the field of woo woo.

Outside of that she's a laughingstock.

[KittyWampus]

57. anyone who doesn't fit in your little box isn't a woo. Your sophmoric need to name call

says everything one needs to know about you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. If my "little box" is the scientific method...

well then yeah.

"Your sophmoric need to name call says everything one needs to know about you."

Your devotion to pseudoscience (anti-vaccine woo, or creationism, for two examples) says everything one needs to know about you.

[KamaAina]

60. Rather than "curing" us,

shouldn't the goal be to get those more significantly affected to function more like Odin and myself (and quite a few other DUers)?

edit: spelling

[pnwmom]

70. This is what Dr. Herbert said when asked about a "cure":

AT: At this point in time, is it possible to speak of curing autism?
Dr Herbert: You have to define your terms. There’s a movement
within autism called the Neurodiversity Movement, and their point
of view is that autism is a way of life and a way of perceiving. It’s not
a disease. They equate the idea of curing autism with genocide. I
think that premise needs to be picked apart. People with autism can
make incredibly fantastic, unique contributions to society. They
have unique perceptions, unique perceptual capabilities. This is
outstanding. Some of us wonder whether there is certain a kind of
biochemical feature—this is pure speculation—that works for hav-
ing those wonderful capabilities, but then if the person with this
capability gets environmentally challenged, that person is more vul-
nerable to becoming metabolically and medically overwhelmed.
My feeling about treatment and autism is that we want some-
body to function optimally. It’s not that we want the brilliance to
go away; it’s that we want the suffering to go away. We want the
painful gastrointestinal infl ammation, the sleep disturbances, the
self-injurious behaviors—the things that cause the individuals
themselves to suffer—to go away. We’re not trying to change the
way someone thinks; we’re trying to allow the person’s capabilities
to come to full fl ower because they’re not being tripped up all the
time by suffering and medical illness.

http://www.alternative-therapies.com/at/web_pdfs/herbert_long.pdf

[KittyWampus]

56. YOU may not need to be cured but there are many thousands of families dealing with autistic

children who could use some help forging progress.

Speak for yourself.

[cpompilo]

41. Many parents are having good results with treating autism with diet

For kids on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet: www.PecanBread.com

[glitch]

42. Thank you and belated welcome to DU! nt

[roguevalley]

43. personally, I would hope she's right. Something has to give people

hope and children a chance.

[Book Lover]

65. I have plenty of hope, and my child has a chance at a normal life right now

with the ABA, speech, and occupational therapies.

The only thing that worries me about my child's autism, to be honest, is other people; e.g., the schoolyard teasing, the inability to be hired because of prejudice against the developmentally disabled, etc. My child's life will be just fine if the rest of the world just wakes up and has some patience and understanding.

[Spider Jerusalem]

54. Martha Herbert is a quack, sorry

her association with anti-vaccine nutters does her no favours, nor does her lack of scientific rigour in forming hypotheses. All of her claims (unsupported by a shred of evidence) are that autism has an environmental cause (which has been fairly strongly contra-indicated by actual science; the neurological differences in the brains of autistics are of such a nature and degree that they must have been present from a fairly early stage in gestation). And speaking as an autistic adult, I have no desire to be 'cured', thanks.

But there's plenty of dubious science there to go around, starting with the keynote speaker, Dr. Martha Herbert. She shares one characteristic with at least a couple of "luminaries" of the anti-vaccine "biomedical" movement. As Autism Diva and Kevin Leitch pointed out, like Dr. Mark Geier and Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. Herbert has been slapped down by the courts, which used the Daubert standard to reject her testimony claiming that a child was made autistic by a reaction to mold growing in the condo she was living in. The court found:

Dr. Herbert's publications indicate that she is an outspoken advocate of increased attention to the possibility of environmental influences. Even she, however, despite that acknowledged perspective, speaks in her published work of possibilities and potentialities, rather than of the 'reasonable degree of medical certainty' to which she offers to testify under oath in this case.10 Neither Dr. Herbert's publications, nor any others cited, identify mold exposure as even a suspected, still less a known or proven, trigger of autism......Dr. Herbert's method, to the extent the Court can discern it from the materials offered, is a series of deductions based on possibilities.....*Clearly, Dr. Herbert's method is not generally accepted in the scientific community*. Dr. Herbert's theory of environmental triggers of autism may some day prove true. It has not yet. Her proffered testimony does not meet the standard of reliability required by the case law, and cannot be admitted in evidence at trial.

Dr. Herbert is a big fan of the idea that autism has something to do with neuroinflammation. Unfortunately, none of her publications persuasively presents evidence for this hypothesis, and lately she's publishing in bottom-feeding alternative medicine journals articles with titles like Learning From the Autism Catastrophe: Key Leverage Points. Suffice it to say, Dr. Herbert is big on "biomedical" woo, so much so that anti-vaccine propagandist David Kirby likes to cite her and Age of Autism loves her.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/08/autism_quackery_at_the_university_of_tor.php

Dr. Woo--I mean Dr. Hyman--then goes on to cite a whole lot of, well, woo:

Dramatic scientific discoveries have taken place during the last 10 to 20 years that reveal the true causes of autism -- and turn conventional thinking on its head. For example, Martha Herbert, MD, a pediatric neurologist from Harvard Medical School has painted a picture of autism that shows how core abnormalities in body systems like immunity, gut function, and detoxification play a central role in causing the behavioral and mood symptoms of autism.

She's also given us a new way of looking at mental disease (and disease in general) that is based on systems biology. Coming from the halls of the most conservative medical institution in the world, this is a call so loud and clear that it shatters our normal way of looking at things.

Everything is connected, Dr. Herbert says. The fact that these kids have smelly bowel movements, bloated bellies, frequent colds and ear infections, and dry skin is not just a coincidence that has nothing to do with their brain function. It is central to why they are sick in the first place! Yet conventional medicine often ignores this.

Dr. Herbert's work shows nothing of the sort. Go ahead. Head over to PubMed and look at Dr. Herbert's publication record. I'll wait. She has listed 15 publications about autism, of which:

* six are review articles
* two are in alt-med journals, and one of these is an interview
* one is a paper with dozens of authors reporting the results of mapping autism risk loci using genetic linkage and chromosomal rearrangements. (Dr. Herbert is solidly right in the middle of the huge pack of authors.)

Of the remainder, Dr. Herbert only appears to be first author or senior author on four publications on autism containing original research, and these appear to be all imaging studies of the brains of autistic children. In other words, Dr. Herbert is making claims far beyond what her publication record in the peer-reviewed literature can, even under the most charitable interpretation possible, support. Nothing at all in her publication record appears to support the concepts above of autism being a systemic, rather than brain-based condition. There's nothing about systems biology there (and I actually rather like systems biology); nothing there to support a link between autism and gut disorders; nothing to support a link between autism and immune dysfunction; and nothing to support a link between "environmental influences" and autism. That's not to say that there aren't environmental factors that influence the development of autism; it's just that there's nothing in Dr. Herbert's publication record to support such a hypothesis or to identify what, if anything, those environmental factors might be.

In other words, there is nothing at all to support Dr. Hyman's claims, which appear to be based on Dr. Herbert's claims.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/09/dr_mark_hyman_mangles_autism_science_on-.php

[KittyWampus]

58. so you use guilt by association. Pathetic. You can't deal with what a scientist says

so you insult them.

Again, it says everything about you and your inability to process information you don't like.

[Spider Jerusalem]

59. WTF got up your arse?

It's not 'guilt by association'. She's a quack who wasn't accepted as an expert medical witness qualified to give testimony on autism; she makes claims without research to support them. Apparently you'd prefer to believe nonsense if it's the sort of nonsense you want to hear even if it hasn't got a bit of evidence supporting it.

And apparently you either didn't bother to read the entirety of my posts, or you have certain difficulties of your own re processing information you don't like. Mote and fucking beam.

[pnwmom]

73. Judges are ill qualified to make scientific judgments, unfortunately --

especially in cases where the current paradigm is in the process of changing.

[Spider Jerusalem]

77. That's why there's a codified rule for admissibility of 'expert' testimony in US courts.

It's called the Daubert standard (after the case Daubert v Merrill Dow Pharms Inc; note particularly the requirements re peer review and accepted scientific methodology):

In Daubert, seven members of the Court agreed on the following guidelines for admitting scientific expert testimony:

* Judge is gatekeeper: Under Rule 702, the task of "gatekeeping", or assuring that scientific expert testimony truly proceeds from "scientific knowledge", rests on the trial judge.
* Relevance and reliability: This requires the trial judge to ensure that the expert's testimony is "relevant to the task at hand" and that it rests "on a reliable foundation". Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharms., Inc., 509 U.S. 579, 584-587. Concerns about expert testimony cannot be simply referred to the jury as a question of weight. Furthermore, the admissibility of expert testimony is governed by Rule 104(a), not Rule 104(b); thus, the Judge must find it more likely than not that the expert's methods are reliable and reliably applied to the facts at hand.
* Scientific knowledge = scientific method/methodology: A conclusion will qualify as scientific knowledge if the proponent can demonstrate that it is the product of sound "scientific methodology"/derived from the scientific method.<3>
* Factors relevant:The Court defined "scientific methodology" as the process of formulating hypotheses and then conducting experiments to prove or falsify the hypothesis, and provided a nondispositive, nonexclusive, "flexible" test for establishing its "validity":

1. Empirical testing: the theory or technique must be falsifiable, refutable, and testable.
2. Subjected to peer review and publication.
3. Known or potential error rate and the existence
4. The existence and maintenance of standards and controls concerning its operation.
5. Degree to which the theory and technique is generally accepted by a relevant scientific community.

In 2000, Rule 702 was amended in an attempt to codify and structure the "Daubert trilogy." Rule 702 now includes the additional provisions which state that a witness may only testify if

1) the testimony is based upon sufficient facts or data
2) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods, and
3) the witness has applied the principles and methods reliably to the facts of the case."

[pnwmom]

83. The fact that there's a coded standard doesn't mean that the outcome

will be correct.

In fact, it means that -- in a time of paradigm shift -- the court will always prefer the outdated research; will always accept the most conservative views. The Court can only make a legal decision, not a scientific one.

[Spider Jerusalem]

90. Herbert's quackery isn't supported by any reputable researchers.

It's not a time of 'paradigm shift' at all. If anything the vast majority of peer-reviewed research supports the present understanding of autistic disorders as a) neurological, b) possibly to some degree genetic and c) present from early in gestation at the time of cerebral tissue differentiation.

[pnwmom]

116. Do you understand what a paradigm shift entails? Of course you're not going

to find support for a newer paradigm in peer-reviewed research conducted years ago.

You would know that other top researchers support her work if you had read the article. For example:

"More recently my group’s finding regarding the distribution of white matter enlargement has been pursued by my colleague Carlos Pardo, a neurologist and neuropathologist at Johns Hopkins, who had already demonstrated activated microglia and activated astro- glia in brain tissue from autistic individuals—these are signs of innate immune activation. After reading my paper localizing white matter enlargement, he went back and stained tissue in the same distribution as the areas I’d measured, and he detected cellular changes consistent with immune activation in the same parts of white matter where I had detected volumetric enlargement. This suggests that this white matter enlargement may be related to immune activation, which may be driving brain enlargement and impairing brain function.

"Dr Pardo’s findings of brain immune activation completely change the playing field of what is relevant to how autism works. In other words, if that’s going on, then you have an ongoing chronic- disease process. There may or may not be early wiring changes, but you have an ongoing chronic-disease process. And that’s a totally different ball game from what we’ve been thinking about autism— it adds a whole extra axis to the dimensions in which we need to characterize the condition.

"To flesh out the implications of these chronic changes in autism, I wrote a paper called “Autism: A Brain Disorder or a Disorder That Affects the Brain?” More recently I coauthored an article with my neurobiologist and neuropathologist colleague, Matt Anderson, about this called, “An Expanding Spectrum of Autism Models: From Fixed Developmental Defects to Reversible Functional Impairments,” that will come out next spring in a volume edited by Andrew Zimmerman, a close colleague of Carlos Pardo’s and an important pioneer in immune system research in autism. It’s premature to say that the earlier model of fixed wiring deficits is wrong. But it is not premature to say that there are things going on later that could actively influence the level and type of functioning of the brain—all kinds of cellular changes that would affect the synapses and the blood flow and other things that can manifest as problem behaviors, either in addition to or even instead of early wiring diagram alterations."

_______
So, in a couple of paragraphs, she mentioned having the support of Carlos Pardo, Matt Anderson, and Andrew Zimmerman, all top researchers in the field. Of course, if you sincerely want to know how many other researchers have been citing her research, you can run a search. Otherwise, you're just spouting off.

[Maru Kitteh]

64. Nice. You insult an autistic person for inablility to process information?

And call them pathetic?

I think JS has earned the right to have a respected opinion on this matter since he actually IS autistic.

Christ almighty. Where is your civility?

[pnwmom]

72. How would anybody know that

JS is autistic?

[Spider Jerusalem]

78. Because I said so?

(Obviously, 'SJ' is what was meant...)

Reading comprehension fail, if you didn't pick up on it in my first post in this thread.

[pnwmom]

117. It wasn't obvious to me who SJ was, sorry about that. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

104. Because I can read maybe?

[pnwmom]

71. We know what Dr. Herbert's qualifications are. We know about her medical degree,

her PhD, her post-doctoral studies, and her work at Harvard. What makes you qualified to say that SHE is a "quack"?

[Spider Jerusalem]

74. The fact that she makes claims unsupported by evidence or original research...

and has to publish in 'alternative medicine' journals.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

[pnwmom]

80. Here are her papers, since you appear to be ignorant of them.

SCIENTIFIC REVIEW PAPERS

1. Herbert MR. Autism: A Brain disorder or a disorder that affects the brain? Clinical Neuropsychiatry 2005; 2(6):354-79.

2. Herbert MR, Ziegler DA. Volumetric Neuroimaging and Low-Dose Early-Life exposures: Loose Coupling of Pathogenesis-Brain-Behavior Links. Neurotoxicology 2005; 26(4):565-72.

3. Herbert MR. Large brains in autism: the challenge of pervasive abnormality. Neuroscientist 2005; 11(5 ):417-40.

4. Herbert MR, Russo JP, Yang S et al. Autism and environmental genomics. Neurotoxicology 2006; 27(5):671-84.

5. Herbert MR. Neuroimaging in disorders of social and emotional functioning: what is the question? J Child Neurol 2004; 19(10) 72-84.

6. Herbert MR. Autism. chapter in: Gilman S. Neurobiology of Disease (textbook). Elsevier, 2006.

7. Herbert MR, Caviness V. Neuroanatomy and Imaging Studies. in: Tuchman R, Rapin I eds. Autism: A neurobiological disorder of early brain development. Mac Keith Press, 2006: Chapter 8 pp. 115-140.

8. Anderson MP, Hooker BS, Herbert MR. Bridging from Cells to Cognition in Autism Pathophysiology: Biological Pathways to Defective Brain Function and Plasticity. Am J Biochem Biotech 2008; 4(2):167-176

TECHNICAL PAPERS

1. Herbert, M.R., D.A. Ziegler, C.K. Deutsch, L.M. O'brien, D.N. Kennedy, P.A. Filipek, A.I. Bakardjiev, J. Hodgson, M. Takeoka, N. Makris, and V.S. Caviness Jr. 2005. Brain asymmetries in autism and developmental language disorder a nested whole-brain analysis. Brain 128213-26

2. Herbert, M.R., D.A. Ziegler, N. Makris, P.A. Filipek, T.L. Kemper, J.J. Normandin, H.A. Sanders, D.N. Kennedy, and V.S. Caviness Jr. 2004. Localization of white matter volume increase in autism and developmental language disorder. Ann Neurol 55530-40

3. Herbert, M.R., D.A. Ziegler, N. Makris, A. Bakardjiev, J. Hodgson, K.T. Adrien, D.N. Kennedy, P.A. Filipek, and V.S. Caviness. 2003. Larger Brain and White Matter Volumes in Children With Developmental Language Disorder. Developmental Science 6F11-F22

4. Herbert, M.R., D.A. Ziegler, C.K. Deutsch, L.M. O'Brien, N. Lange, A. Bakardjiev, J. Hodgson, K.T. Adrien, S. Steele, N. Makris, D. Kennedy, G.J. Harris, and V.S. Caviness. 2003. Dissociations of cerebral cortex, subcortical and cerebral white matter volumes in autistic boys. Brain 1261182-1192.

5. Herbert MR, Harris GJ, Adrien KT et al. Abnormal asymmetry in
language association cortex in autism. Ann Neurol 2002; 52(5):588-96.

[Spider Jerusalem]

82. Do you know what a scientific review paper is?

Apparently not.

It is not original research.

Her only original research consists of brain-imaging analysis. Which is not relevant to, and provides no basis for, any of the claims she makes re autism as due to environmental factors, or as a 'reversible disease process'. Claims without research = quackery.

[pnwmom]

85. Her brain imaging analysis IS relevant to and provides part of the basis

for her claims. Clearly, you have not bothered to read her interview at the link in the OP.

[Spider Jerusalem]

88. No, it doesn't

because it doesn't relate to any of the other claims made re 'systemic disorder'.

[pnwmom]

107. You keep proving that you haven't even bothered to read the interview. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

119. Oh, I read it

I question the validity of the claims made, though.

Immune system abnormalities are inferred from increased cytokine levels in post mortem studies of autistic subjects. But the researchers themselves dispute this interpretation of their work. A key work is Vargas, 2005 that is often cited as proof that inflammation as a result of immune system abnormalities is implicated in the aetiology of autism. But the senoir author in this study Carlos A. Pardo-Villamizar cautiously points out in a press release (Science Blog 2004) that, “it is not yet clear whether is destructive or beneficial or both.” On the question of treatments he says that "much more research would be needed to establish the validity of this approach.”

[pnwmom]

120. You are citing a quote from five years ago! In the interim, much research

has been done. But Dr. Herbert said repeatedly in her article that -- while the research increasingly points away from the old hard-wired views -- the work is ongoing

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. "What makes you qualified to say that SHE is a "quack"?"

The fact that I linked to a story involving a courtcase where she claims that mold and vanilla air fresheners cause autism.

[KittyWampus]

81. Sad some DU'ers just have to lie. No, she didn't. It's about adverse allergic reactions to chemicals

in the environment.

Not even remotely a strange hypothesis.

Now you will reply by your usual inane line about how all chemicals are perfectly natural and thus harmless.

Really, you are that predictable and weak.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. Yeah she did.

From the courts findings:

"Dr. Herbert’s publications indicate that she is an outspoken advocate of increased attention to the possibility of environmental influences. Even she, however, despite that acknowledged perspective, speaks in her published work of possibilities and potentialities, rather than of the ‘reasonable degree of medical certainty’ to which she offers to testify under oath in this case.10 Neither Dr. Herbert’s publications, nor any others cited, identify mold exposure as even a suspected, still less a known or proven, trigger of autism……Dr. Herbert’s method, to the extent the Court can discern it from the materials offered, is a series of deductions based on possibilities…..*Clearly, Dr. Herbert’s method is not generally accepted in the scientific community*. Dr. Herbert’s theory of environmental triggers of autism may some day prove true. It has not yet. Her proffered testimony does not meet the standard of reliability required by the case law, and cannot be admitted in evidence at trial."

"Now you will reply by your usual inane line about how all chemicals are perfectly natural and thus harmless. "

I hope you're not charging people money for your psychic predictions.

[Chemisse]

130. It must be very unpleasant to be so obsessively rigid

How can you even learn new things?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. The scientific method allows us to learn new things all the time.

The woo woo that you're fond of doesn't teach anybody anything.

[Chemisse]

135. Why are you so afraid of this topic?

It is astounding the way you freak out whenever you can even remotely tie something to even the slightest concern about vaccinations (which this thread was not even about, but that didn't stop you). Why does this push such a button for you?

I am tempted to start a thread just for the fun of pushing those buttons!

Mzmolly did an excellent job of validating the researcher discussed by the OP. He used logic and many links to legitimate sources. He 'owned' you numerous times and you didn't even realize it. You simply resorted to emotions and name calling. That is hardly the approach used in the scientific method.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

136. Afraid of it?

I've responded to everything.

"I am tempted to start a thread just for the fun of pushing those buttons!"

They call that "trolling" but go ahead.

"Mzmolly did an excellent job of validating the researcher discussed by the OP. He used logic and many links to legitimate sources. He 'owned' you numerous times and you didn't even realize it. You simply resorted to emotions and name calling. That is hardly the approach used in the scientific method. "

Which thread are you reading? Looks completely the other way around to me. I've shot down everything Mzmolly brings up. That's probably why she keeps suggesting the conversation is over. Yet then she keeps brining up standard anti-vaccer woo. Kirby. Then Poling. All very predictable. She, and you, appear to be one of those people that can't admit they've lost a conversation.

The conversation was over the minute the anti-vac OP was posted.

[Chemisse]

137. OMG - the thread had nothing to do with vaccines!

You are TOO funny!

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

138. Sure it does.

Playing dumb will get you no where.

[Chemisse]

139. Playing dumb?

It's nowhere, not no where.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

140. Case in point.

[Chemisse]

142. Finally she admits it!

But you can still learn. Maybe you could take some on-line courses.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

143. on-line courses, eh?

Is that how you became a "chemist?"

[Chemisse]

145. No, I was eligible to go to a real university

I thought perhaps you would need to settle for something a little more basic.

[Book Lover]

66. Observation and question

I may be misremembering, but it seems to be that you post a lot of stuff about vaccines, autism, etc. Do you have a friend or family member who is autistic?

[pnwmom]

75. My youngest son has always had 2 or 3 children in his homerooms

who are autistic, so I have gotten to know quite a number of parents of autistic children; and one of his good friends has a brother with autism. (And the mother is a good friend of mine.)

Vaccinations are another issue (though possibly related -- as in the Hannah Poling case, in which her autism was connected to a vaccination and a mitochondrial disorder). My sister died of a reaction to the old DPT vaccine, and one of my sons had a severe reaction to the same vaccine. But I am not anti-vaccine -- just cautious. For example, we have all had our seasonal flu shots already. But if and when any grandchildren are born, I will suggest that my children talk to their doctor about spreading out the vaccine schedule to reduce the number of injections given at one time.

[Book Lover]

124. Thanks

Two or three autistic kids integrated in a regular classroom is pretty inclusive, and unusual in my experience. That's cool.

[kitfalbo]

102. thoughts

Just say "I'm coo coo for coco puffs" five times fast. It'll make you feel better about this thread. That and maybe crave them.

[whirlygigspin]

105. I don't know what to think...but it's sad

Well, no matter who is right, these problems have to be dealt with by the families concerned.

Shots in the Dark, part 1, a documentary produced by the National Film Board of Canada

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7F62tPLxvE


Part 2 explains the pathogens, and gets closer to the scientific problem involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR13V_fie60

[Duppers]

123. thanks, pmom

Sigh. These threads add to my ignore list. (Hint: definitely NOT you or mzmolly.)

[Deep13]

149. Wow! Sign me up!

I'd love to know the implied meaning of words and the meaning of body language.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

153. Autism is Treatable Campaign

http://www.autism.com/treatable/index.htm#critics

Help Our Autism is Treatable Campaign

As you have read in the many media reports of the so-called "Autism Summit," (a meeting in Washington DC in late November, 2003), the Federal Government and several multi-million dollar autism groups hope to be "finding effective drugs for the symptoms of autism" in 7 to 10 years.

NONSENSE! We need to tell them, and the media, and the tens of thousands of families of autistic children who don't know, that many effective treatments are available NOW. If your child has recovered from autism, or improved dramatically, and you would be willing to speak to the media about your child's recovery, YOUR HELP IS NEEDED. The Autism Research Institute has begun compiling an extensive list of families throughout the United States who are willing to talk to the media about their child's recovery. (read full letter and fill out form)

[Why Syzygy]

155. Watch this

http://www.horseboymovie.com/Film.php