Coalition for Vaccination CHOICE --

[defendandprotect]

NJ Coalition for Vaccination Choice

Coalition Objectives

NJCVC provides parents/individuals with awareness, education and resources to support their right to informed vaccination choices in New Jersey.

NJCVC strongly supports legislation (bill A260/S1071) to give parents/individuals the right to a conscientious exemption to mandatory vaccinations. NJCVC strongly opposes mass vaccination mandates, under any circumstances.

NJCVC supports the parents/individuals' right to freedom of choice in their healthcare decisions and the basic human right to decide which substances, if any, are injected into their bodies and that of their families.

Immunizations: Protecting an At-Risk Population

This excellent article was developed for those in the medical community- it specifically addresses the concerns they often raise. Makes a great hand out at OB & pediatrician visits! It was written by our legislative hero, Assemblywoman Charlotte Vandervalk, who has championed the NJ vaccination choice bill for years.

Letter Writing / Call In Kits

Everything someone might need to conduct their own mail-in and call-in campaign, complete with background info, 80% done letters, as well as talking points & mailing labels addressed specifically to Health Committee members.

Want to Join the Coalition?

http://www.njvaccinationchoice.org/


http://njvaccinationchoice.blogspot.com/



Quite a few website up --

Saw a bumper sticker with NJ VACCINATION CHOICE yesterday --

[stray cat]

1. Can I sue someone who refuses a measles vaccination and spreads measles to my child

and kills her before the kid is old enough to be vaccinated. Or maybe negligent homicide?

Should an infected doctor or med student be able to refuse treatment for tuberculosis even if they then spread it to immunocompromised patients on a regular basis?

Should we stop making doctors and med students get immunization for hepatitis and let them spread it to patients?

[blondeatlast]

3. The requirements for negligence are:

1. Duty of care: What would a REASONABLE person do?

Point for you.

2. Breach of duty: did the defendant fail to act or act in opposition to what a reasonable person would do?

Damn, you win again.

3. Causation: did the negligence cause harm?

You are sooo on a roll here--and finally

4. Damages: Are damages present and in evidence?

Call a good tort lawyer, you have a clear winner.

HINT: DON'T settle out of court or arbitrate (unless your state law insists on arbitration).

Edit: As to criminal negligence--you get that one as well.

[SIMPLYB1980]

22. +1

[earth mom]

8. I was born with measles and I'm still here. Stop spreading needless fear and hysteria.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

10. Well, THAT explains a lot. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

15. Measles Still Has a Devastating Impact in Unvaccinated Populations

Measles Still Has a Devastating Impact in Unvaccinated Populations

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1712354/

You do harm when you minimize the importance of vaccinations. Children die. You do harm.

[SidDithers]

19. You survived, therefore, nobody dies...

is that how your logic works?

Sid

[beam me up scottie]

21. You're the poster child for the pro-vaccination camp and you don't even know it.

Check's in the mail, keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

[Warren DeMontague]

24. And I've got an aunt with post Polio syndrome, who spent most of the 20th century with a cane.

Vaccines save lives.

[trotsky]

29. "Stop spreading needless fear and hysteria."

:rofl:
Pot, meet kettle.

[LeftishBrit]

32. Lots of people haven't been as lucky. One and a half million children a year still die of diseases

that could have been prevented by vaccination.

[Codeine]

121. What the hell is the anti-vax movement

if not the very essence of "needless fear and hysteria"? It's their watchword and countersign, their raison d'être, the foundational cornerstone of their existence.

[Ms. Toad]

9. Did you bother to read the information at the link?

New Jersey's law is extreme. One of the case studies reported at the link:

Daughter was hospitalized with paralysis following a vaccination. The family physician recommended that neither, she nor her younger sibling, have (or repeat) the vaccination. New Jersey law permits the school district to overrule the doctor's recommendation, which it did.

The law also requires vaccination of pre-school children for influenza and pneumonia, both of which routinely contain thimeorsol - which has been banned from childhood vaccinations since 2001.

[defendandprotect]

40. Many of these children are dead from vaccines, many injured permanently . . .

would suing anyone amend those tragedies -- ?

There are many problems with vaccines . . .
the polio vaccine has long been suspected of creating the AIDS/HIV epidemic
in Africa.

Others say it also included a cancer virus.
How many Americans have cancer today? 1 of every 3? Is that the number now?

[HuckleB]

45. What are you ranting about?

WOW!

[beam me up scottie]

50. So the polio vaccine caused AIDS?

AND cancer?

And you wonder why you're mocked.

[defendandprotect]

92. No . . . we should all wonder why those defending vaccine MANDATES ...

try to use ridicule as debate here --

Yes -- the polio vaccine in Africa was cultivated in monkey glands causing
monkey viruses to activate in the polio vaccine --

Many question whether this was the cause of the AIDS/HIV epidemic in Africa --

Additionally, cancer causing virus was also picked up and included in the polio vaccine --

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. Bollocks. Absolute bollocks.

Where's this "Many of these children are dead from vaccines" crap come from? Or "it also included a cancer virus"?

"the polio vaccine has long been suspected of creating the AIDS/HIV epidemic in Africa" is rubbish too. Back this up with some studies, please, if you believe it.

[elocs]

2. I thought Democrats favored choice. Or is it only when it is our preferred choice?

:shrug:

[Confusious]

17. When your choice doesn't harm other people

ALOT of other people.

Like a baby that died in San Diego because someone on her street decided NOT to get vaccinations.

Maybe you can explain "choice" to her mother.

[mzmolly]

37. Oh puleeze.

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

41. And how would you possibly prove that a disease which infected one child on a street

didn't infect the other?

You have to start to appreciate the risks of these vaccines are now outweighing
the benefits.

Look at our military and how many have been injured by these vaccines!

Look at the AIDS epidemic -- it has long been thought that the polio vaccine used in
Africa spread AIDS there.

Others also say that the polio vaccine also included a cancer virus.

[trotsky]

42. You are spreading falsehoods.

You should really stop.

[HuckleB]

43. What?

That has to be the most ridiculous post I've read at DU in years.

WOW!

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. "risks of these vaccines are now outweighing the benefits" - back that up with studies, please

because if anyone were to believe your ridiculous assertion, it could be bad for their health. It is your responsibility, if you are going to make claims about medical treatments, to have them based on the real world, not internet rumours that could have been made up by anyone.

[defendandprotect]

91. Is having a child die a "risk" . . . How many more children with Autism before you

consider them a "risk" . . . ???

Ask our soldiers if there are any "risks" to these vaccines --

Ask the nurses who are fighting a VACCINE MANDATE -- !!!

We're going to make a lot of claims about medical treatments -- mainly because

our health care sucks --

from the whole "for profit" end of it where we're getting chemical crap that creates

endless side effects to "slash and burn" treatments for endless cancers.

And, needless to say in regard to the corrupt pharmaceutical industry and it's outrageous

profits, while EVERY ONE OF THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES permitted to do business with

Medicare and Medicaid have been involved in fraudulent practices.

[LeftishBrit]

93. The point is that America does not equal the entire world

Countries that do NOT have a 'for profit' health care system ALSO use vaccinations; treat cancer with what is currently available; etc. Just because the American health care system is bad, does not mean that all modern medicine is bad. It's the deprivation of access to it that is bad!

Cancer treatment is very far from perfect, but it's much better than what was available 40 years ago; e.g. nowadays most children with leukemia are cured, whereas up till 40 to 50 years ago it was a death sentence.

And vaccines are NOT the cause of autism, and insisting that they are, against all the evidence (yes it was a reasonable hypothesis to test; yes it HAS now been tested in many countries) is taking a lot of resources away from investigating the real causes of autism.

'Is having a child die a risk?'

Yes. Ask the families of the one and a half million children who still die every year because they don't have access to the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to vaccinations!

[defendandprotect]

95. If other countries are MANDATING vaccines, that's up to their citizens . . .

We're talking about our country and our citizens . . .

and MANDATING vaccines --

And, as far as I know, other nations have adopted the American approach to treating cancer . . .
after all, didn't we heavily invest in a "War on Cancer" --
Those "Wars On" seem to be more of a racket than a help!

I'm for MEDICARE FOR ALL -- and preventive medicine.

If we have illness, we have to understand the "WHY?" of it --
Last go-around we had with childhood leukemia, as I recall it, had to do with
nuclear plant leaks. We have endless environmental concerns involved with cancer.

Excuse me, but you're insisting that vaccines are NOT the cause of autism?
Every sign points to just the opposite of that --
Parents link the vaccines to illness in their children connected to the vaccines.

PLUS, as we've seen with so many other diseases that we are creating, the final word
now is .... "genetic." DNA links.
Soon, we'll have a DNA link to poverty!

As these vaccinations move on -- so does Autism.

[LeftishBrit]

97. There has been extensive research on autism in relation to vaccination schedules

In Japan, the MMR was withdrawn and then reintroduced several years later. There was no effect on autism rates.

In several countries, including the USA, mercury was removed from most childhood vaccines. Again, no effect on autism rates.

In the UK, a recent study showed that if one uses the same diagnostic criteria, the rates of autism are the same or higher in adults as in children (about one per cent), which does not support the idea of a recent epidemic.


My point about different countries was that you cannot attribute modern vaccination schedules, or more broadly, modern medical techniques, to a 'for profit' healthcare, as they are used in many places that do NOT have 'for profit' healthcare. As regards mandates: in some Europaean countries, some vaccinations are mandated; in most they aren't, but are universally available and encouraged by doctors. They are not mandatory in the UK - but most people get them.

I do not think that vaccines should be mandatory; but I do consider that modern medicine (including vaccines) and modern sanitation are two of the most wonderful and precious things in the world, and that access to them is a basic human right. As regards choice and coercion: there are far more people who are *denied* the choice to have vaccines and other medicines, as a result of poverty, than are forced to have them.

[defendandprotect]

99. The vaccinations are given in batteries . . .

there are many problems connected not only to the make up, but the manner in which
they are administered.

Unfortunately, what has been corrupted here often moves on to corrupt other countries'
practices --

THIS discussion is about MANDATING vaccinations for the flu --

and glad you agree that they shouldn't be mandated!

Modern "sanitation" came obout because of female involvement in medicine --

Modern medicines are too often chemicals with huge and endless side effects --

No one in need should be deprived of appropriate health care . . .

what we're discussing here is what is "appropriate" and what should or should not be

MANDATED ... !!!

[muriel_volestrangler]

98. Again, please back up the claim that vaccine risks outweigh the benefits

You're just asserting it with no evidence whatsoever. As for autism - study after study has shown there is no connection with vaccines. See eg http://www.nhs.uk/news/2009/09September/Pages/MMR-jab-autism-rates.aspx

You're just making wild accusations with no evidence. I hope that no-one listens to you about it.

[defendandprotect]

100. See Post #91 . . .

[muriel_volestrangler]

102. That's not backing it up - that's you asserting it, again, without any reference

to the real world.

[defendandprotect]

105. Of course, we should all rely on the system that has corrupted medical care and

our medicines to tell us what to do now . . .

the question is MANDATES . . .

I'm against them --

If you're for them -- great for you!

[LeftishBrit]

106. 'The system that has corrupted medical care and our medicines'. You mean the British NHS?

Because Muriel was using *their* site as his source.

[defendandprotect]

108. Are you saying that the US has no influence over Great Britain and your politics?

Meanwhile, what we are discussing here is MANDATES . . .

Are you for them or against them?

And, again, there is a lot of money involved in vaccines/disease --

now too big to fail?

[LeftishBrit]

110. Foreign and defense policy, yes. Health policy, no.

If it did, we would not have had socialized medicine for the last 60 years.

I am against mandates:

(1) I am against mandatory vaccination, except in extreme emergencies (which the swine flu does not currently constitute IMO).

(2) I am against mandates to not be vaccinated. Denial of government provision and funding of vaccination is a mandate for poorer people to NOT be vaccinated.

Thus vaccinations should be made universally available, except where real vaccine shortages require some rationing to ensure that the most vulnerable have access (ironically, this DOES seem to be the case with the swine flu vaccine, despite all the fears about everyone being forced to get it). They should be provided free as a basic human right. They should not be enforced, but they should be encouraged by doctors.

[iverglas]

113. fyi re mandated vaccination in the US

A couple of years ago, during one of the interminable Gardasil/HPV discussions, the rationale for mandating vaccination in the US was explained to me.

If a particular vaccination is not required for school attendance in the US, uninsured children (and, I gather, some insured children) will not have access to it. Making the vaccine mandatory is the mechanism for giving those children access to the vaccine.

So when you say:

I am against mandates to not be vaccinated. Denial of government provision and funding of vaccination is a mandate for poorer people to NOT be vaccinated.

-- essentially, not making a vaccination mandatory, in the US, amounts to a mandate not to be vaccinated!

Twisted for sure - and not something we Canadians and Brits would think of on our own. ;)

[muriel_volestrangler]

111. If you want to stick to mandates, then don't bring up evidence-free claims about cancer and AIDS

you still haven't shown any source for your claims. We have no idea where you got them from. We have no reason to believe them.

[Robb]

4. Non-vaccinated people, like cigarette smokers, should simply stay outside.

My right to breathe clean air is at risk here! :rofl:

[TransitJohn]

5. I was gonna say the same thing.

:hi:

[Indenturedebtor]

7. I'm a smoker and I completely agree with that

They didn't have these debates when polio was cured... people too easily forget what vaccines have done for us.

[TwilightGardener]

11. I'm pro-vaccine, but many kids vaccinated from the late 1950's until

1962 with the new polio vaccine were inadvertently infected with a known-carcinogenic monkey virus (SV40) from the use of monkey kidneys to make the vaccine. This virus often is present in cancerous tumors, they're still investigating the link between those vaccines and occurrence of some cancers like mesothelioma. You do take your chances with vaccines, although I do believe they're much safer today, and they do far more good than harm overall.

[Confusious]

18. That was just the start of the vaccine program for polio

It was corrected right away.

[Maru Kitteh]

23. And that mistake was corrected more than HALF A CENTURY ago, In the nascent

era of the modern vaccine.

Avoiding vaccines today because of one bad Polio vax in the 50's is like saying you shouldn't get on a plane because the Wright brothers had a few accidents.

Most CT'ers fit very nicely on Axis II of the DSM.

[TwilightGardener]

33. But the lesson from that incident is that vaccination should be a choice because

no one can ever be 100% certain of safety--contamination happens, bad reactions happen. I have no blind trust in any agency or company. It's no different than if authorities insisted you take a pill that is 99.9 % safe for the rest of the population--the vast majority will take it, but I don't believe you can force the rest to do so, because it's THEIR bodies and they don't want to assume even that tiny risk. I don't believe a state or federal agency should force a citizen to ingest or inject a particular substance into the body. If the goal of vaccination is to protect me and my children from a disease, and I believe it's beneficial to do so, I'll do it. (And of course, me and my family are vaccinated up the wazoo, except for flu shots this year--we all already had some sort of flu.) If I don't feel that the vaccine is necessary or might be harmful, I should have the right to keep it out of my or my children's bodies. I don't happen to believe the link between autism and thimerosal, and I think it's sad that some families are being scared off from vaccinations, but still--it should be a personal choice and not the government's.

[uppityperson]

35. Unfortunately the lesson taken by many is that the risks of adverse effects is HUGE for most people

Fear is easily promoted, esp when there is so much to fear and distrust. THAT is the problem. More education is needed to counter things like "I got the flu shot and got the flu anyway. What were my symptoms? I was vomitting and had the runs sooooo bad. Did I ever cough? No. Why would I cough with the flu?"

I know of a very tiny few who say a vaccine is 100% safe, but know of many who take the promotion of .1% adverse effects to mean "most", rather like the balloon boy hysteria yesterday.

[defendandprotect]

44. Agree completely . . . if you can be FORCED to this "medicine" ....

what other medical procedures can you be forced to undergo?

[mzmolly]

38. I take it you've had every adult booster

recommended?

[iverglas]

104. I think you're barking up the wrong tree; but I have

I have had the polio booster at public clinics when offered. And as a young adult, knowing I had had rubella twice as a child, I had myself tested and was found not to be immune. I got the shot. Even though I am possibly allergic to the serum; just stuck around my clinic for a half hour to make sure I didn't have a reaction.

Why? Because all my friends were women of child-bearing age (not to mention all the others in my community), and if I had contracted rubella from someone's unvaccinated child in the neighbourhood or on the bus, and infected a pregnant woman, I could never have lived with myself.

Yes, some of us ARE that altruistic.

[customerserviceguy]

6. I'm curious as to which particular vaccines you're against

Are you talking about H1N1? Regular flu? Or that Gardasil stuff that big pharma is bribing lawmakers with megabucks to mandate?

By the way, I'm not in the targeted group for H1N1, and if enough of you anti-vaccine folks refuse it, I might have a chance of getting it in time to prevent me from coming down with the disease.

[dysfunctional press]

12. if enough people refuse the h1n1 vaccination...

it may end up helping to bring down the unemployment rate.

here's hopin'. :bounce:

[Ian David]

13. Vaccinations will corrupt your precious bodily fluids.

I fucking DARE you to not get vaccinated.

Go ahead.

Don't vaccinate yourself.

If you're THAT stupid, see if I fucking care.

There's a vaccine shortage.

I'm not going to be trying to talk morons into vaccinating themselves if it means a smart person who WANTS to be vaccinated might not get the chance.

Otherwise, we'll all be going to Starbucks for hand-jobs before we know it.

[Ian David]

14. Oh, and I'm blocking you, so I don't contaminate the magical world full of unicorns you live in. n/t

[Rage for Order]

16. It appears many on the left only support choice...

If they think someone is making the right choice. That sounds awfully familiar.

[Confusious]

20. When your choice doesn't harm other people

ALOT of other people.

Like a baby that died in San Diego because someone on her street decided NOT to get vaccinations

Maybe you can explain "choice" to her mother.

[TwilightGardener]

34. Sorry, but private citizens are not duty-bound to have a substance

injected into them for the benefit of others. I wouldn't get my children needlessly vaccinated against the flu just to keep others from possibly catching the flu--I don't know how many people are that altruistic, frankly. If I got them vaccinated, it's to protect THEM.

[defendandprotect]

46. And how do you know that your decision doesn't "harm other people" . . ?

Enough of these vaccines may eventually harm a child's own natural immune system?

[beam me up scottie]

51. WTF? How would "his choice" harm anyone else?

You're just making shit up as you go.

[defendandprotect]

52. Oh . . . you must be right . . .

because vaccine makers only have the welfare of citizens in mind . . .

:eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

54. Explain how that poster's choice could have harmed anyone else.

Was he/she cranky after the shot?

[defendandprotect]

80. "Seasonal flu shot may increase H1N1 risk" ---

It's a good idea to actually read the article ...


Seasonal flu shot may increase H1N1 risk
By CBC News
Preliminary research suggests the seasonal flu shot may put people at greater risk for getting swine flu, CBC News has learned.

Preliminary research suggests the seasonal flu shot may put people at greater risk for getting swine flu, CBC News has learned.

"This is some evidence that has been floated. It hasn't been validated yet, it's very preliminary," cautioned Dr. Don Low, microbiologist-in-chief at Mount Sinai Hospital in Toronto.

"This is obviously important data to help guide policy decisions. How can we best protect people against influenza?"

It's important to validate the information, which has not been peer reviewed, to make sure it's not just a fluke, and that the observation is confirmed elsewhere such as in the Southern Hemisphere, which just completed its seasonal flu season, or in the U.S. and UK.

Four Canadian studies involved about 2,000 people, health officials told CBC News. Researchers found people who had received the seasonal flu vaccine in the past were more likely to get sick with the H1N1 virus.

Researchers know that, theoretically, when people are exposed to bacteria or a virus, it can stimulate the immune system to create antibodies that facilitate the entry of another strain of the virus or disease. Dengue fever is one example, Low said.

http://license.icopyright.net/user/viewFreeUse.act?fuid=NTM5NjgxMg==


Therefore, if someone in a household gets a flue shot which increases his chances of getting
Swine Flu, that individual could become a greater risk to all those who have NOT gotten a flu
shot . . . for whatever reasons.

And, again, we don't know what the long term consequences of these vaccines may be.

Our own troops can tell you that!

[HuckleB]

83. Seasonal Flu Shot May Boost Defenses Against H1N1, Study Finds

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aFY7sRohP0hM

This was actually published.

[defendandprotect]

90. It may have been published . . .

but it sounds quite questionable . . .

It's a little early for me yet, but what this seems to say is if you got a
seasonal shot in '08 it may or may not have given you some immunity -- but still
don't skip the '09 shot?

And other questions --

Meanwhile, the reality remains -- people often become ill after getting vaccinated.
Whether we're talking about soldiers or babies --

And, again, we do not know the long term effects of regular vaccinations for occasional
flu symptoms. Obviously these viruses keep strengthening -- and we should investigate
the why of all of that.

Nor do we know the long term effects on these children getting batteries of vaccinations
at very young ages.

[HuckleB]

94. Oh brother.

You post a study that is very questionable, and has yet to be published, as if it is some definitive piece of evidence. And your response to a study that has been fully reviewed is that it's "questionable?"

You are much too tied into your preconceived notions.

[defendandprotect]

96. Excuse me, but your article "questions" it's own conclusions . . .

I merely pointed that out to you --

[HuckleB]

107. You pointed out nothing but your own presumptions.

You spread fear via rumor, and ignore actual science.

[defendandprotect]

118. You mean you have to be ...

disingenuous in order to move your debate . . . ???

but it sounds quite questionable . . .

It's a little early for me yet, but what this seems to say is if you got a
seasonal shot in '08 it may or may not have given you some immunity -- but still
don't skip the '09 shot?

And other questions --

Bye --



PS: Children who have died after receiving these vaccines are not "rumor" --
The many soldiers made ill from vaccines yet another example of NOT "rumor" --
Nor are the nurses standing against these MANDATES doing so to spread "fear" --
Science usually can stand questioning and challenge -- evidently not in the case
of vaccines where all thought and doubt has to be suspended and people have to be
forced to take them with "Mandates."

[HuckleB]

119. Once again, you make claims, sans evidence.

Is this just a big joke routine, for you, or what?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. You talk about making informed vaccine choices.

Yet your links are full of lies, like the vaccine-autism nonsense.

[Trillo]

26. Lots of unrecs. Happy to rec.

I guess I'm a little worried about the nosy-neighbor syndrome and second parties moving their noses INTO my body. Not that it hasn't already with the prohibition of DNA ownership, except for patent holders, and DNA databases for "law enforcement" purposes.

I saw a curious sign at a pharmacy the other day, it said something about the flu clinic being canceled, the explicit reason given was that the shots were so popular they ran out of vaccine. I recalled the Canadian's preliminary findings that taking http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/09/23/flu-shots-h1n1-seasonal.html">this years flu vaccine INCreased H1N1 susceptibility, and wondered if the sign was a lie.

Regardless of where the truth lies in regards to the sign, it seems the buzz is that the seasonal flu shots this year are popular.

[Maru Kitteh]

28. Those nosy neighbors that eliminatied smallpox from the face of the earth were real bastards

* Diphtheria
* Pertussis
* Tetanus
* Polio
* Measles
* Mumps
* Rubella
* Pneumococcal Disease
* Meningococcal Meningitis
* Chickenpox
* Tuberculosis
* Hepatitis B
* Influenza
* Smallpox

Oh, and thanks for reminding me to unrec this thread. :thumbsup:

[iverglas]

101. you beat me to the smallpox thing

Anybody here know the history of smallpox outbreaks in Europe and the Americas in the 19th century?

Yup, there were anti-vaccine crusaders then too. And every time they got enough of the public on side somewhere, another smallpox outbreak swept the planet, killing thousands upon thousands.


How about that minor childhood disease, chickenpox? A vaccine has been available for a decade, and is recommended for children 12 months and up. Chickenpox can be just an irritating rash for a few days, or it can be more complicated, especially for babies and the otherwise at-risk.

And what most people don't know is that once you have had chickenpox, you are at risk for outbreaks of shingles in later life. If you've never met shingles, it just sounds like some arcane old-fashioned disease. Both my grandmothers had it -- one vaginally, and fortunately had access to the modern treatment that must be started immediately after an outbreak; one around her middle, and couldn't sleep in a horizontal position for two years because of the pain.

I just learned that an online friend in Australia lost her father last year to shingles. At the end, his skin was literally peeling off. He died of it.

But hey, I'm sure there are good reasons not to vaccinate one's children against that funny childhood disease, and leave them at risk of such problems in later life. Just like there are good reasons to leave one's daughters at risk of contracting the HPV that can leave them without a cervix as a result of the biopsy needed to remove pre-cancerous lesions, like me, ... or worse.

[defendandprotect]

109. These are terrible illnesses . . . .

but so have our troops suffered from being forced to accept vaccination --

This is the same government throwing Depleted Uranium everywhere --

Failing to clean up Cold War nuclear sites --

Inflicting toxic substances on citizens without their knowledge --

Again, contrast that with the deaths and cases of autism which seem to be

related to the vaccines ... in one way or another.

[iverglas]

112. honestly

Again, contrast that with the deaths and cases of autism which seem to be
related to the vaccines ... in one way or another.

Yeah. Voodoo.


This is the same government throwing Depleted Uranium everywhere --

Nope. Sorry. That's your government. Not mine. Not the government of the Brits on the thread.


What a load of smelly fish you do fling about.

[Why Syzygy]

114. Right. The Brits are just innocent bystanders in Iraq.

:eyes: It's not like they've never indulged in global imperialism, and are not willingly engaged presently.

[defendandprotect]

117. Agree -- helping to do America's dirty work . . .

[defendandprotect]

116. I'm talking about the US government . . .

And you're saying that parents with dead children and tens of thousands

with autism is "voodoo" . . . ??

Again, I'm discussing my government -- and it has been thoroughly corrupted --

:eyes:

[trotsky]

30. There are questions about the Canadian study.

And other studies showing the seasonal flu shot may indeed confer some protection against H1N1, or at least lessen its severity.
http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=22597

[uppityperson]

36. Why would a pharmacy lie, based on a suspect Canadian study? Seriously, why?

They'd simply post a sign saying the vaccine was unavailable if they didn't want to give it.

[Trillo]

39. We live in a lying culture of mostly impunity.

When money or lawsuits may be at stake, the pressure to lie is especially great. And there are lawsuits in play over this right now.

What is at issue here is not whether the vaccine is safe, but whether folks can choose what goes into their own body, or not.

An alternate is simply to tell everyone who gets the flu to stay at home, and to remove all financial pressure on them during that time period that they are shedding virus, which to my limited knowledge is a much longer time period than the acute time of symptoms. It seems to me that some of the pressure to vaccinate is driven by folks that need to be at work to pay their bills, and kids who need to be in school, yada yada. Hey, if they want the vaccine, great! But if they don't want it, should they be forced to take it, should more subtle financial pressures be applied to get them to take it, because someone else might catch it the flu from them?

Influenza has been killing people for years and centuries, probably as long as people have been living together in communities. It's as honorable a way to die as any other. Do adults have the right to say no to medical treatment?

[uppityperson]

53. A pharmacy would lie for fear of lawsuits, based on a suspect Canadian study?

[Trillo]

55. That's one question. My observations were slightly different: "suspect sign".

We can also add suspect corporations, a culture of denial and deceit, and of course, regular workers who must comply with 'orders from above' to keep their jobs.

Here's a reasonably good overview article that explains one vaccine lawsuit.

According to that article, the safety of the H1N1 vaccine is also in some question, it's alleged it hasn't been tested for "safety or effectiveness". So, let me see if I understand their argument: Maybe it's safe, maybe it's not; Maybe it's effective, maybe it's not. If so, what's the point?

If anyone takes such a vaccine, there is at least one thing that is guaranteed: money will be paid to buy it.

[HuckleB]

59. The article you posted offers no evidence of safety or of a lack of safety.

Perhaps it's time for you to open your mind, and look at the actual evidence.

[Trillo]

60. So you're implying that courtrooms require no evidence?

I find that implication absolutely ridiculous.

[HuckleB]

61. Courtrooms do deal with evidence. There is no evidence to support this baseless case.

Try again.

[HuckleB]

62. BTW, has that lawsuit gone anywhere?

Nope. Do you know why? Because it is baseless.

[Trillo]

63. Filed on Oct 9.

Claims that it's "baseless" would seem pre-mature at best and spurious at worst.

Another judge did suspend the NY State H1N1 mandate for 2 weeks last I read.

[HuckleB]

64. The mandate lawsuit had nothing to do with safety.

This "other" lawsuit has no basis, as anyone who cares to do the slightest bit of research into the research that went into the vaccine knows.

[Trillo]

65. Post your fabulous research, that the mandate lawsuit had "nothing to do with safety"

Post your fabulous research, with links to source, that the mandate lawsuit had "nothing to do with safety".

[HuckleB]

67. Read up.

ttp://www.stargazette.com/article/20091016/NEWS01/910160399/Public-workers+union+gets+restraining+order+on+New+York+s+H1N1+mandate


"This suit does not weigh in on the safety of the H1N1 vaccination or the potential seriousness of an H1N1 outbreak," union President Richard Iannuzzi said in a statement.

..."

Now why did I have to prove you wrong? Why would make claims otherwise, if you hadn't researched the case?

[Trillo]

68. This one reads like maybe it is about personal safety.

Kindlon is said to be the nurses' lawyer, and is mentioned in your link as well

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2009/10/16/Judge-blocks-NY-H1N1-vaccine-mandate/UPI-29001255728092/

"These are not libertarians, they are not lefties, they are not right-wing lunatics," Kindlon told the Times. "They are healthcare professionals, and they think the vaccination is not going to be good for them."

[HuckleB]

69. He didn't say that to the judge.

If he had, the case could have easily gone the other way. He's still talking about the rights of employees to think what they want, at the end of the day. That's the only leg that case has to stand on, and it's a good enough leg, as it is.

[Trillo]

70. That could be true.

But we don't really know if it is or not.

[HuckleB]

71. Say what?

[Trillo]

73. Got a link to the filing?

I haven't seen it.

[HuckleB]

74. Nope.

But there's a reason that the quote I posted was made. The goal of lawsuit is to give health care professionals a choice. If the union wanted to challenge that based on safety, it would have a much harder issue to prove. Nevermind that the union would be very unlikely to bring such a lawsuit, in the first place.

Now, you still haven't explained what your last post meant.

[Trillo]

77. Post #73 was a rephrased post #70.

"Perhaps it's time for you to open your mind, and look at the actual evidence."

[HuckleB]

78. I have looked at the research in regard to safety.

When will you?

[Trillo]

79. You mean like the research written by the veterinarian?

The one that someone else (trotsky?) posted upthread?

Saw it.

You seem to have a real problem with this case going to court where the evidence will be examined.

[HuckleB]

82. So a diversion attempt is all you can do?

As for the mandate case, I am on the side of the union.

As for the other case, bring it to court. It will go nowhere.

You can continue to ignore the research, and bring up veterinarians all you want.

It appears that you don't give a rip about the reality of the vaccine, its safety, or much of anything else.

[Trillo]

84. Yes, it was Trotsky's link,

I checked after posting my last reply, and that research was done by a veterinarian.

You wrote these various snippets in reply to my posts:"look at the actual evidence...anyone who cares to do the slightest bit of research into the research that went into the vaccine...I have looked at the research in regard to safety...continue to ignore the research"

In all your talk about "research", YOU haven't posted one link to any of it in support of your argument about the vaccine's safety.

[HuckleB]

85. That's great.

Got any more diversions?

That's all you seem to be able to offer.

[uppityperson]

66. H1N1 vaccine cannot be charge for except for person to administer it.

The vaccine is free. However, a nurse/pharmacist/doc/etc who gives it may charge a small fee for doing so.

As far as that lawsuit, anyone can file a lawsuit alleging whateverthehell they want. Doesn't mean the allegation is true.

I am getting the vaccine and it is free.

[Trillo]

72. Governments have purchased it.

Are you saying that the companies manufacturing the vaccine are not selling it to governments?
"H1N1 vaccine cannot be charge for except for person to administer it."
Is there a law on the books that says this exactly as you wrote it?

http://visitbulgaria.info/11440-glaxo-gets-more-government-orders-swine-flu-vaccine
"An additional $149-million orders since 4th August when Glaxo gave its last update, the substantial sales will ensure a profit windfall, all thanks to the flu pandemic."

And BTW, the sign I saw was not in regards to the H1N1 vaccine, I'm pretty sure it said "seasonal flu". I haven't a clue what they charged this time before the clinic was canceled, though in years past I believe it was in the $10-20 range.

[HuckleB]

75. Yes, we need a better system.

Health care reform needs to go much further than the insurance issue.

Next.

[uppityperson]

76. There is that, thought you meant personal. Seasonal influenza vx can be charged more for, can charg

charge for the vx itself, not just the person giving it. Hini vx, you can be charged a fee to have it given, but not for the vx itself. Yes, there is a law, part of the federal emergency management thingie that gives broader powers in Times of Crisis.

Sold to gvts, indeed. That makes them money.

[iverglas]

115. I kind of just have to say this

a suspect Canadian study

The ethnicity/geography of the researchers/institution really isn't relevant here, is it? Have you ever heard of Mt Sinai Hospital in Toronto? You might want to have a look at it. My mum and sister just completed cancer treatment at one of the other hospitals on hospital alley in Toronto, Princess Margaret, and I've become a little familiar with them. These places are what are often called "world class" institutions.

The study isn't "suspect". There's no basis for doubting its authors' integrity, or the reality of the data they analysed, or their competence in analysing the data.

The study is extremely preliminary, and simply reports what was found by analysing available data. Because of the pressing need for data about seasonal and H1N1 flu and all of the issues surrounding them, it was released in its preliminary form. It is information, and that's all it is. And interestingly, it does at least put a bit of the lie to the mantra of the anti-vaccine camp, that mainstream vaccine researchers and developers don't release their info.

I live here, and I plan to rely on my physician's advice about both shots. For myself I probably wouldn't bother with either one, as I have minimal exposure to other people. But my partner nearly died twice in the spring when he contracted flu. He was diagnosed with type I diabetes suddenly when he was over 50, and the risks of flu were one thing that didn't seem to have been conveyed to us. By the time I got him to the emergency room, in advanced ketoacidosis, and he was all hooked up to every monitor in the joint and being hydrated and the rest by intravenous, the doctor told me we would know in an hour whether it was working, but not whether he would survive. Because of his remarkable recovery they released him the next day. It happened all over again three days later. That time I refused delivery for two more days.

The thing is, he is hugely at risk. But for some reason he wasn't eligible for the seasonal flu shot when it was first released two weeks ago -- only seniors. I happened to be talking with our doc on the phone that week, and she was stupefied. He is obviously about as at-risk as you can get. Was this because of the Mt Sinai findings about seasonal flu shots and H1N1? Apparently it may have been. I gather both will be available shortly.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/science/ontario-delays-fall-flu-shots-over-h1n1-threat/article1299834/

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/10/19/f-swine-flu-myths-facts.html

The call: Canadian health care professionals are recommending that people over the age of 65 get the seasonal flu vaccine - because it poses a bigger threat to their health than the H1N1 virus. For everybody else, it's the swine flu vaccine.

There's no conspiracy or incompetence here. Just cautious public health officials. Who sometimes make mistakes, not because they are evil or stupid, but because no one has perfect knowledge.

http://www.mountsinai.on.ca/

[HuckleB]

58. Exactly!

Second, anyone who has been paying attention, knows that physician's offices are overwhelmed with requests for flu shots.

[defendandprotect]

49. Interesting . . . if I disagreed with this article, I wouldn't "UN" it . .. I'd try to make sure

that it was seen and that I could read comments on both sides --

And then the "UN's" say it's not about censorship!!

It's about stuff they fear being positively discussed, evidently --

Weird!

[HuckleB]

57. That study has yet to be published.

A US study that has been published found that the general flu vaccine does offer some help in fighting swine flu.

[chollybocker]

27. Is there a vaccine against stupid?

Or did you refuse that one, too?

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

48. Considering right-wing/government "stupidity," I would guess not---!!

Did you see Rachel's report tonight on new book re our Cold War contaminated

sites? If only the flu were the worst things that happened on this planet!!

Unfortunately, most of the most tragic things that happen are man-made!!

[LeftishBrit]

31. I would strongly suggest that any liberal (whatever their views on vaccines) should think umpteen

times before joining ANY coalition that includes the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. They are right-wing monsters who oppose government provision of health care: even more disgusting given that they are doctors. Attitudes like theirs kill far more people than most diseases or any vaccines.

[defendandprotect]

47. They're also anti-male circumcision . . . as unnecessary . . . not a right wing position . ..

Current understanding of the benefits, risks and potential harm of this procedure, however, no longer supports this practice for prophylactic health benefit. Routine infant male circumcision performed on a healthy infant is now considered a non-therapeutic and medically unnecessary intervention. From a religious standpoint, infant male circumcision is acknowledged to be an important ritual and an integral part of Jewish and Islamic religions. Male circumcision is also practiced in other parts of the world as a rite of puberty.

AND, in the cases of religious "ritual" they suggest that it should be delayed until the child
can make their own decision.

[LeftishBrit]

56. This is neither left nor right; but their general approach is right-wing.

Conservapedia describes them as the 'oldest conservative and libertarian group'. Whether this is correct I don't know; but clearly Conservapedia regards them as one of their own.


Their website is full of vicious propaganda against universal health care. They were also activists against the Clintons' attempts at healthcare reform in the 1990s. And going back yet further - against FDR's and Truman's attempts to introduce health care in the 40s. They have consistently opposed *any* government-sponsored health care programmes, including Medicare and Medicaid.

They were also involved in spreading various right-wing medical myths, including the theory that abortion causes breast cancer, and that undocumented immigrants are responsible for the spread of leprosy.

According to Wikipedia's entry on them (yes, it's Wikipedia, but they link to direct sources):

'The AAPS has characterized the effects of the Social Security Act of 1965, which established Medicare and Medicaid, as "evil" and "immoral",<11> and encouraged member physicians to refuse to accept or participate in Medicare and Medicaid.<12><13> AAPS argues that individuals have a right to purchase medical care, that there is no right to medical care, and that a government-mandated entitlement to medical care is unconstitutional and immoral; hence they oppose efforts to implement a national health plan.<14> ... Other procedures that AAPS opposes include abortion<16> and over-the-counter access to emergency contraception.<17>

The organization's Resolution 2001-2 stated that AAPS resolved to "promote the immediate repeal of all laws, regulations, and policies that allow direct or de facto supervision or control over the practice of medicine by federal officers or employees"<18>....

Articles and commentaries published in (their)journal have argued:

that abortion causes preterm birth later in life, and thus birth defects such as cerebral palsy to future children born to women with a history of abortion,<32>
that the Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services are unconstitutional,<33>
that "humanists" have conspired to replace the "creation religion of Jehovah" with evolution,<34>
that increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has not caused global warming,<35>
that HIV does not cause AIDS,<36><37>
that the "gay male lifestyle" shortens life expectancy by 20 years.<38>


In other words, they are monsters of pure indescribable right-wing evil, and no one should go into any formal coalition that includes them.

[defendandprotect]

81. As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day . . . anti-vaccine and anti-circumcision . . .

As for the rest of it, I would agree they are right wing positions . . .
but don't agree that those positions are relevant to these positions --
Large groups of people -- and let's hope more and more professionals -- are going to
be disturbed by mandates by government to vaccinate.

Parents with newborns are going to be increasingly concerned over not only vaccines but
batteries of vaccines.

Overall, what we're creating is more intrusive and expensive responses to unnecessary illnesses.

Cancer is increasing -- and there is no way to say that the "slash and burn" responses are
saving anyone. Simply put, many think that if you have a slow moving cancer, you have a chance.
If you have a fast moving cancer, you don't. In every phase of health care we have complete
over reaction and weakened diagnostic ability. We need to rethink all of this and move towards
preventive health care.

[LeftishBrit]

86. My main poinr is that one should not formally ally oneself with a group whose main campaigning issue

is being opposed to government-provided health care.

I think that they are utterly wrong to be anti-vaccination in any case, but the main point here is that I DO think that this is related to their main viewpoint: they are against vaccination and especially any mandates for vaccination because they are against all government-provided and government-supported health care. It is all part of their general right-libertarianism. But even if it wasn't, one should not IMO ally oneself formally with such a disgusting, evil and dangerous group, as it gives them encouragement and publicity. There are far-right-wing groups, such as that of David Duke, which are against the Iraq war: should one include David Duke as a formal collaborator in a coaltion against the Iraq war?

'We need to rethink all of this and move towards
preventive health care.'

Vaccinations ARE preventive health care!

[defendandprotect]

89. I would agree with that . . . however, are there other organizations

representing these families, parents?

I think someone has to do it -- this is a start.

I'm not saying that anyone should willy-nilly give them money without being sure

what they're using it for.

In fact, I'd suggest that we actually need a parents' organization to fight this--

and I think all citizens should be involved in fighting any MANDATES for vaccinations!

[iverglas]

103. thank you!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons
(footnotes omitted)

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit organization founded in 1943. The group had approximately 4,000 members in 2005. Notable members include Ron Paul and John Cooksey. ...

Thee and me won't agree with that "politically conservative" bumph. Conservative is one thing; vicious right wing is another.

The organization opposes mandatory vaccination, universal health care and government intervention in healthcare. The AAPS has characterized the effects of the Social Security Act of 1965, which established Medicare and Medicaid, as "evil" and "immoral", and encouraged member physicians to refuse to accept or participate in Medicare and Medicaid. AAPS argues that individuals have a right to purchase medical care, that there is no right to medical care, and that a government-mandated entitlement to medical care is unconstitutional and immoral; hence they oppose efforts to implement a national health plan. The organization also opposes mandated evidence-based medicine and practice guidelines, criticizing them as a usurpation of physician autonomy and a fascist merger of state and corporate power where the biggest stakeholder is the pharmaceutical industry. Other procedures that AAPS opposes include abortion and over-the-counter access to emergency contraception.

And of course there's more.


Ya lie down with dogs ... ya get up with rabid fleas and impaired cognition.

[iverglas]

120. "our legislative hero, Assemblywoman Charlotte Vandervalk"

Quelle surprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Vandervalk

Charlotte Vandervalk (born July 31, 1937) is an American Republican Party politician, who serves in the New Jersey General Assembly since 1991, where she represents the 39th legislative district. She has served in the Assembly as Deputy Republican Leader from 2002-2003 and Assistant Majority Leader from 1992-1995.

http://bluejersey.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9389