Birdflu: Seal the Borders! Easier 4,000 miles than 80,000miles of city q't

[oscar111]

Easier to seal four thousand miles of border early on, than to try later to seal off quarantined parts of many cities.. which would add up to a total of 80,000 miles of urban sealing.

Math.. Mex and Canada border... four thousand miles

Math.. forty thousand towns with quarantined areas, if national borders not sealed,... parts quarantined and thus troops needed to seal those areas, averaging two miles perimeter each.. total of quarantined edges to patrol.. eighty thousand miles.
=====================================
BUSH PLAN TODAY HAS LOGIC ERROR
Bush plan will not seal the national borders, claiming that "it is ineffective". Well, if he cannot seal the national borders, he will have to seal urban quarantined areas later on , in many of our towns.

How will he quarantine urban areas if he thinks he cannot even seal the national borders?

Clearly he needs to do the national sealing well, and then he will never have to quarantine many of our towns.

The national approach will also save thousands of us from death by the flu.
================================
FOOTNOTE FOR THOSE WITH TIME..

National border sealing can be done very effectively. When any cargo entry is needed for such as emergency medicines, the foreign plane can be unloaded by the plane's crew at an empty part of the airport, with the crew then returning to the plane.


Then american staff can emerge from a building, get the boxes, ... leave some perhaps if needed, and retreat to the building. A jet fuel truck would then be parked next to the plane and the driver would get out and go into the building. The foreign plane crew might get any outgoing boxes, load them, fuel up the plane from the truck, and depart.

NO HUMANS NEED TO MEET
==============================
No humans need ever meet closely. The border can be sealed. Not one american has to get sick!

==============================


Similar methods could be used to unload foreign oil tankers.

I believe we as a nation grow more than enough food for our citizens, in "the world's greatest breadbasket, the midwest".

[tocqueville]

1. why the panic ? it doesn't make sense

last Sunday I went to Camargue, a wild bird sanctuary, there were hundreds of people watching, strolling, picnicing etc...

DESPITE THAT THE DAY BEFORE A DEAD SWAN (DEAD IN BIRDFLU) HAD BEEN REPORTED IN THE AREA.

The European public has started to understand that birdflu kills birds, unless you pick up the dead bird and sleep with it in your bed. Of course a lot of precautions have to be taken if tame birds are contaminated, but that's mostly for the economical damage, not primarily the transmission to humans...

why this fucking paranoia ? since birdflu has reached western Europe, the normal quarantine measures of poultry have shown being very efficient. The only death reported is one of a cat in Germany. Nobody have been even contaminated...

and we are in full migration period...

besides your border stuff is preposterous since the contaminated bird can land ANYWHERE in the US...

[Grateful for Hope]

3. Good to hear

that there is some common sense in Europe. We sure don't seem to have any here in the US.

[oscar111]

5. Birds are not the problem. HTH mutation will be the problem

Officials are focused not on what you mentioned... bird to human BTH.

but, rather on what may happen later... mutation to a Human to Human..HTH form.

Once that mutation happens, the problem begins. No one is concerned with BTH in itself.

BTH only sets the stage for a later HTH problem.

Stop BTH, and one stops a later HTH problem.

Questions? I hope i have set it down clearly.

In other words, no one fears birdflu as it is now. Only that it sets the stage for a later on mutation, into the dreaded HTH form.

[MercutioATC]

7. And the important thing to remember is that every BTH case increases

the chance that H5N1 will shift to HTH (so will other cases, like bird-to-swine).

If not this year, next year...or the year after.

If not H5N1, some other virus.

Whether H5N1 is a real concern or not, it's always a good idea to be prepared.

[oscar111]

8. Thanks, Merc.. i was feeling like no one understood this thing

good to hear from you

[MercutioATC]

10. My father is CEO of a national research foundation...

...and he's not the type to be easily concerned. He's concerned about this one.

I'm not panicking, just staying informed and making basic preparations.

[sarcasmo]

46. Don't forget your TUNA.

[tocqueville]

25. it hasn't mutated YET, if it ever will

there are more chances that Iran get nukes before that. And if it mutates it's not sure it gets lethal. All this reminds me of the discussion round AIDS 20 years ago. Everybody was going to die... society would collapse...

I call paranoia

[MercutioATC]

26. 67% of U.S. doctors expect it to go HTH by 2010.

Sure, they might be wrong, but what's the harm in staying aware and prepared (which people who write it off as simple paranoia are probably not doing)?

[tocqueville]

27. 67% of what fucking doctors ?

only geneticians/epidemiologists can assess the risk, and they say "we don't know". I don't mean that no preparations can be done, but the original poster calls it "birdflu". In peoples mind birdflu is the actual birdflu. And I bet that if a single fucking bird dies in birdflu in the US this year the panic will be undescriptible. That is paranoia.

http://www.abc.net.au/health/features/birdflu/

"You hear about the 100 or more people that have caught bird flu but you don't hear about the 20 million people that have been living surrounded by contaminated duck secretions that haven't."

"The public gets swept up in imitative behaviour and it becomes almost impossible to avoid it," Curson says.

"SARS (Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome) was going to be the 'plague to end all plagues', now bird flu is the plague to end all plagues. SARS showed how panic, fear and hysteria at both an individual and official level could totally overwhelm the epidemic itself and I think that's where we are now."

[MercutioATC]

28. Well, Robert Webster, for one...

...and he's one of, if not the, foremost authorities on avian influenza viruses in the world.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/AvianFlu/story?id=1724801


I agree that a lot of people are more familiar with the hype than the facts about H5N1. Isn't that a reason to educate people instead of just ignoring the issue?

[Warpy]

29. I've been trying to get that point across for MONTHS

that it's a problem if you work factory farming chickens and the birds get sick. It's NOT a problem for the rest of us and won't be unless the virus makes some fundamental changes in its makeup.

The virus infects deep in the lungs, so deeply it can't easily be coughed out in droplet form and that means it's not going to spread person to person the way ordinary flu does. The very thing that makes this flu so deadly also makes it very difficult to spread. You'd have to sleep in the same bed with an infected person, share the same dishes and drinking utensils, have VERY close contact, and even then, you'd have a statistically negligible chance of catching it. There have been only two documented cases of person to person transmission that I know of.

If the virus mutates to the point that it becomes an upper repspiratory disease, then we've got problems. However, it will also be far less deadly if it does, although it may duplicate the 1918 strain.

[MercutioATC]

32. Right. It's not an "all or nothing" issue.

The extremes are panic and complete denial.

There's plenty of middle ground.

[AndyA]

2. Perhaps this is what those Halliburton Concentration Camps are being

built for. Gather everyone up and send them there, just like we did after Pearl Harbor.

Closing the boarders would make it more difficult for Bush's big business cronies to do business, and we can't have that, can we?

It's important to remember we must stay focused on what's important: BIG BUSINESS INTERESTS!

:sarcasm:

[endarkenment]

4. Hello? Its BIRD FLU.

Seal the borders from birds? Might as well build a dome over the nation. Birds don't got no stinking borders.

Ok so that first point is disingenuous, the threat from bird flu is that over time it evolves (how do the fundies deal with that?) into a human communicable virus that for some reason is inexplicably presumed to be THE MOST LETHAL VIRUS IN HISTORY. Ok, let's just agree to all the assumptions in there. 'Seal the borders' would actually only be effective if it were a quarantine on the rest of the planet and if the quarantine were put in place before any infected humans got inside this country. We would have to stop all cross border traffic by foot, plane, train, bicycle, zeppelin, atuomobile, bus, boat etc. All of it.

So what are we left with? The call to seal the borders against bird flu is fear mongering conflating the currently fictional bird flu pandemic with the immigration issue. The problem it seems is that those brownish people who live on both sides of our southern border are obviously diseased and will kill us all with their foreign germs.

No thanks. I prefer to not play this particular xenophobic game.

[oscar111]

6. Illegal migrants have nothing to do with this.

no conflation involved. None.

no xenophobia either.

True, to be perfect , sealing would have to be in place before any nonsymptomatic foreigner got in. Experts expect the HTH form to originate in the currently troubled areas, such as China.

Thus we will likely have two months of seeing HTH forms in places like China or Indonesia, during which to set up border sealing.

Even if a few shedders get in before the sealing, they will be easier to quarantine than what bush envisions... letting the usual thousands come in every day. Bush's plan will make us do a heck of a lot more sealing.. AKA quarantining.. later on. And thousands will die needlessly in his sloppy, uncaring plan.

KEY LOGIC
the key flaw in bush's thoughts are summed up in my OP..


seal either 4 thousand miles, or eighty thousand miles.

Either no one gets sick {my plan} or two million die {bush plan}

[MercutioATC]

9. It's proposed virulence isn't "inexplicable"...

The human race has never seen an H5 epidemic. Our entire species has absolutely zero resistance to an H5 virus.

That, combined with the mortality rate of H5N1, is a definite HUGE cause for concern if it shifts to HTH.

[oscar111]

11. Before the 1918 Spanish flu, i bet some of these "so what" posters

would have been telling us "what are you panicking about? It will never happen. Precautions are preposterous. I see people strolling, picnicking here, and they are not worried in the least."

That is what they would have posted in 1917.

A year later, .. how many millions was it, that perished miserably?

PS Toqueville, thanks again for the help with paper ballots thread last year. You were most helpful to me on that. Hope all is well over there in france.

[MercutioATC]

12. Exactly. It might NOT happen...but it very well might.

Staying informed and planning accordingly seems to me a much better course of action than completely ignoring the issue.

[oscar111]

13. right. Like tornadoes.. you prepare

you dont curl up in panic, nor do you ignore them.

you respect tornadoes, and dig a little tornado shelter.. you see them all over the midwest.

every intelligent person has a plan to deal with them.

same with this birdflu thing.

[400Years]

15. blah, blah, blah

This is all bullshit scare tactics. Is it shark week?

[MercutioATC]

16. So be ignorant and unprepared...that's your privilege.

If you'd read a couple of my other posts in this thread, you'd see that I'm not advocating panic, just awareness and preparation.

Even the most conservative experts aren't writing H5N1 off as "blah, blah, blah". I'd rather be informed than blissfully (or angrily) unaware.

[endarkenment]

17. The OP's headline "SEAL THE BORDERS'

Sorry this is fear mongering bullshit conflating immigrant phobia with bird flu phobia.

[MercutioATC]

18. Well, sealing the borders wouldn't work anyway...I agree.

...but 400Years didn't respond to the OP. He responded to my post explaining why H5N1 was a concern.

There IS middle ground between "The sky is falling" and "It's all BS". That's all I'm advocating - finding a middle ground.

[oscar111]

20. Even if a few got thru the seal attempt.... wouldnt those few be far

easier to quarantine than the many thousands that will enter , shedding, under bush's plan?


LOGIC
on another point of the logic of this thing... if it is true as bush and ye say, that we cannot seal the national border.. well, ... are not both of you implying that we will not be able to quarantine our city sections aflame with HTH birdflu? How then can bush go on to plan the quarantine of such areas?

And, have not city area quarantines worked in the past? If so, and i know they have worked, we should BE ABLE to seal a nation. AKA, quarantine it from the outside entry folks.

[MercutioATC]

23. Quarantines had limited success in 1918.

A present-day "sealing the borders" approach wouldn't work because we're a much more mobile society.

http://www.publicdiplomacywatch.com/2006/05/researchers_say_flight_curbs_w.html

The point is that once it's in, it's in. Sealing the borders would be monsterously difficult and expensive and would only delay the inevitable by a few weeks. Once in the U.S., the virus would spread.

[oscar111]

34. Mobility can end. Easier than two million dying.

Proportions: effort at the border reduces effort needed to handle "slipthroughs."

ie, many shedders enter, much labor thereafter. But if few shedders slip through, little effort needed to deal with those sickened from them.

Spread of the virus would be more if more shedders enter.. less if few shedders enter.


We make an effort to quarantine shedders in each case.

[endarkenment]

22. And I agree that we ought to be increasing CDC funding

and repairing the incredible damage the criminal bush cabal did to FEMA.

The human version, if it ever happens and if it is actually lethal, will get here by airplane, not by mexican border crosser.

[MercutioATC]

24. Agreed. International travellers and poultry shipments are the two most

likely ways a pandemic would enter the U.S. Unless you can seal EVERY point of possible entry (which you can't) it's pointless to try to seal the borders.

[oscar111]

19. Seal borders or seal parts of forty thousand towns

that is the choice

[endarkenment]

21. no, that is a classic false dichotomy. nt.

[oscar111]

35. false? tell me what other choices exist

thanks. always willing to learn

humble ox oscar

[400Years]

30. No, I just prefer to be aware and grounded in reality

The fools who go around advocating all kinds of drastic measures and those who choose to stoke the fires of panic are not those I choose to take advice from.

[MercutioATC]

31. I agree about the "panic", but I believe awareness is essential...

...as it is with any possible threat.

Sorry if I misread your "blah, blah, blah" as discounting the possible seriousness of a pandemic.

[Snow]

40. "never" is a long time....do you have a citation for "never"

and the entire species loses resistance as the members of the species who were exposed to whatever die. 1918 was an H2N2, right? Assuming no H2N2 of that variety has happened since then, as everyone born before 1920 dies, we will have zero resistance to that strain. Happens every generation. You're engaging in hyperbole.

[oscar111]

14. RECOMMEND for greatest page

thanks

Recommend button is at bottom of the OP.. Original Post

[BrklynLiberal]

33. This bird flu scare is another tool in the box of BushCo to keep the

sheeple frightened.

How do you "seal the borders" against a bird that might be carrying this "epidemic"? Should we keep all "illegal alien" birds out of this country?
:silly:

[oscar111]

36. People, not birds, will carry the mutation

BTW,

i see my friend Merc's article has some good details on No Seal camp's thoughts.

Article says if most all possible sealing is done, a few cities will get off scot free.

So, i say seal ALL entry. ALL of it.

The article laments how sealing cant be done because that would hurt
================================================

ONE... tourism

TWO.. business travellers.
================================================
well... is to laugh. So it IS bush profit thinking that reasons that we can't seal the border.

two million die so Mr. Big can go to a business meeting, and his daughter can tour Rome?

Comments? I still claim we can seal.. ignore business travel and tourists. To hell with them.

[oscar111]

37. kik

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[oscar111]

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[oscar111]

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[oscar111]

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[philb]

42. There are a lot of bigger, more serious health problems than bird flu

There are immune boosters readily available that will protect all but the most immune weakened,
and there are already serious problems affecting millions in the U.S. due to toxicity from mercury, pesticides, lead, arsenic,
nickel, etc. and antibiotic resistant bacteria, etc.

as well as bioterrized versions of mycoplasma affecting many already

[oscar111]

43. kik

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[philb]

44. Natural Medicine May Hold Solution For Bird Flu Pandemic - Dr. Blaylock

Natural Medicine May Hold Solution For Bird Flu Pandemic according to prominant doctor

Date: 5/12/06 Author: Mike Adams Source: NewsTarget.com

The real solution to the bird flu (or any flu) comes from natural sources. To survive most viral infections, all you really need are certain nutritional supplements and powerful medicinal herbs. As Dr. Russell Blaylock explains, "With nutritional supplementation, the elderly can avoid flu vaccination altogether. In my own clinical experience, supplementation dramatically reduces the incidence of ALL viral infection. And should that person become infected with a particularly virulent strain, the severity of the illness is dramatically reduced. This protection also includes such diseases as smallpox and anthrax."

So, there you have it from a doctor who has the courage to stand up and tell the truth, and the brains to be an independent thinker. He doesn’t fall for all the hype being distributed by the drug companies who, after all, look at flu shot season in the same way that retailers look at the Christmas shopping season: BIG MONEY. And a bird flu pandemic could be nothing short of a financial windfall for these companies.

Antibiotics don't work, either

What about antibiotics? As any doctor will tell you, antibiotics only work on bacteria, molds and fungi, not viruses. In fact, antibiotics are going to do you far more harm than good, because they are not going to prevent the virus, but they are going to destroy your healthy intestinal flora, and that's going to upset your entire digestive system. It's going to make it more difficult to assimilate the nutrients you need from whole food concentrates and medicinal herb supplements.

Taking antibiotics could give you diarrhea. They could also give you indigestion. They're basically going to worsen your health and probably force a situation where it takes you far longer to recover from the flu. So, I do not recommend taking antibiotics for any viral infection, and certainly not for any potential bird flu virus. Instead, work with a naturopath, because the naturopath is going to work holistically with the foods, the supplements, the herbs and the products that you are using. He or she may, in fact, recommend things that are not even in this book.

Your immune system is the ultimate solution

Besides, whether or not you visit a doctor, it's still up to your immune system to conquer the flu. In the end, your doctor can't take over your immune system via remote control. The immune system is either going to do the job and you are going to get over this, or it's not going to do its job and you are going to die from it. Those are the only two possible outcomes, and the doctor has almost no control over that. The doctor can't heal a patient, and the best doctors already know that. All they can do is assist the patient in healing themselves. Remember, all healing comes from the patient. All healing is ultimately initiated by you.

Original story can be found here:
http://www.newstarget.com/019378.html

[oscar111]

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[oscar111]

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