Anyone exempt their kids from vaccines?

[kerouac]

Has anyone here refused the 'mandatory' vaccines for their children in their state?

Apparently, here in NY, you can sign an affadavit based on religious beliefs and not be required to give them the boatload of shots they 'require' during the first 18 months.

Anyone have any experiences they can share? How hard was it to find a pediatrician willing to accept your unvaccinated child as a patient? How much resistance have you run into?

Thanks :)

[BlueEyedSon]

1. no, but we space ours out and request mercury-free versions.

[kerouac]

5. NY no longer allows mercury in vaccines

I'm pretty sure Pataki signed a law that requires mercury-free vaccines in NY for pregnant women and children. Of course, it went into effect a month after my wife got her flu shot (at about 2 months pregnant) and we couldn't find a mercury-free version anywhere at the time :(

[Caution]

2. No but a few things to consider

I know none of the answers to these and expect the answer to most to be "it depends"

If you exempted
1.) Would you later be able to get your child a tetanus shot?
2.) Would a doctor be willing to accept your child as a patient (which you already asked)
3.) Would your child be able to travel out of the country?
4.) Would your child later be eligible to enter the military is she chose to?
5.) Would your child be pulled out of certain activities at school?
6.) Would your child have college admissions trouble (I know I had to answer a medical questionaire and get a booster shot from my college).

You should probably speak to your church about this if you are doing it for religious reasons as they most likely have these answers.

If you are doing it for some other reason I suggest you speak to a competent medical doctor (someone with an M.D. from an accredited university) and give them your reasons and ask their opinion.

There are a lot of fallacious stories about vaccination floating around lately that leave a lot of people misinformed.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

3. Nope - my kid gets all his vaccinations.

I have no religious objection to that...or anything else, for that matter.

It's worth the slight risk (as he's very healthy) versus the bigger risk of the diseases themselves.

[sir_captain]

4. Why don't you want to vaccinate? n/t

[kerouac]

11. Risks and neccessities.

I see a greater risk in a few dozen shots, some all in the same day, given within 18 months, starting at birth, than the risk of my child developing the diseases in that time. Some of the vaccinations are for illnesses that are easily treated anyway. Not to mention the fact that the vaccines themselves do not guarantee the child won't get the illness. I'm not against all vaccinations (ie: tetanus), but I don't want to be forced into accepting them all -- and all so soon -- especially the hep-b (which isn't required in all states and mainly affects adults).

[Crowdance]

6. We tried to do it, but failed. So much depends on your NY school district

We found a physician in Conn. who would work with us, but the school district got really upset about it. Lots of threats about calling social services and it looked like we were going to have to hire a lawyer so we caved. We DID do what the poster above recommended, which was to begin the shots only just before school, spacing them out, single shots only and no mercury. It wasn't easy to find a pediatrician willing to work with us on that, either. In fact, she moved away shortly after we completed our series with her for the last child.

OTOH, an acquaintance who moved to NY (a different district) from overseas had never vaccinated her child, signed the affadavit and has been left alone.

So, it might be worth a try. You can always change your approach later.

[goondogger]

7. I wouldn't exempt, but . . .

we're dead-set on the mercury-free versions. My fiance works w/autistic children and, while there's not irrefutable proof of a link between the mercury in vaccines and autism, it's a risk we would not take.

[kerouac]

12. My nephew is a case in point.

Yes, my nephew went from being a seemingly normal child to having asd. Maybe it was in his genes and the vaccines triggered it. I don't know. I do know that vaccines carry risks and we have a very healthy baby right now. Does he really need all these shots and, if so, does he really need them all so fast. He won't be stepping into a classroom for years.

[NNadir]

8. I would never dream of skipping vaccinations. I love my children.

Of course, I'm a scientist, so I guess I don't count.

I know mathematics too, and have a very solid idea of risk analysis, so this also exempts me from wanting to avoid vaccinating my kids.

My kids have all their vaccinations. They are very healthy and are both doing exceptionally well these days.

[kerouac]

14. Even those not required in your state?

Do you stop at the vaccines required by your state, or do you bring them to the doctor for every available vaccine? How about the rotovirus vaccine that got pulled -- how safe was that? Why does a NY child have to get the hep-b vaccine before 2-months old, while children in other states don't need it at all?

Oh, and I love my child, too... enough to question what is being injected into his body and how they do it.

[NNadir]

46. I give my child every vaccine available for serious disease.

I don't give a shit what the state requires and doesn't require.

I would give my child vaccines if the state said nothing.

My Pediatrician told me that he would treat my child only if I agreed to vaccinate him. This is a completely reasonable request, since I expect my child's physician to be interested in protecting his health.

I assume from your attitude that you don't let your child get on airplanes until you have checked all of the pilot's training, that you don't drive in your car with your children until you have personally inspected the brakes and that you personally perform gas chromatographs on all of the juices that you give your kid to drink and that you culture all of the solid foods in your home.

The anti-vaccination game is a game for people, who in my view, hate science and who have an extremely poor understanding of risk analysis.

When I was a baby, my mother lived in terrible fear of me getting polio, which many children in that era were contracting. There was a very serious outbreak the summer before I was born. My parents trembled at the thought that I might end up in an iron lung - and there was very little they could do about it.

It is another sign of our distracted culture of vast popular delusion and confusion that people have forgotten what real disease is all about. My mother couldn't run fast enough to get me vaccinated for polio. It was a big deal, and although I was a very small child, I remember it vividly, because it meant so much to my parents. I thank my father and mother for being wise. As a matter of fact, polio is one of those diseases that has been nearly eliminated. Why is this scourge of humanity been almost eliminated on earth? Because of prayer? No. It is because of vaccination, and the agreement of all of humanity to agree to vaccination.

You seem not to understand what the risk of hepatitis B is.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs204/en/

It is possible for someone to be seriously injured by a vaccine. It is a much larger risk that they will be seriously injured by hepatitis, crippled forever by it, maybe even killed. The greatest risk however probably is getting into a car every day.

I consider the anti-vaccine movement to be a function of how bereft of technical understanding our culture has become. We deserve what we are getting, because we think so very poorly. We are a bunch of puerile mystics who seem to think that life without risk is possible. In fact in this fantasy we are making risks higher. We are literally killing ourselves for ignorance.

For the record the most serious source of mercury, the bete noire of the anti-vaccine movement - by a factor of hundreds - is releases from coal fired electrical powered plants. If you really want to protect your baby from that evil, I suggest you stop using electric lights and computers or start agitating for more nuclear power.

http://www.usgs.gov/themes/factsheet/146-00/

http://www.nih.gov/od/ors/ds/nomercury/environment.htm

[pnwmom]

51. Correct me if I'm wrong,

but, as I recall, there is little risk of a child contracting hep b until s/he becomes sexually active. So there doesn't seem to be a need, except from the point of view of convenience, to subject a newborn to that vaccine.

As for the safety of vaccines, I'm sad to say that my family is one of the exceptions. My sister had a DPT vaccine at her "well baby" checkup at age 6 months. The next morning she woke up screaming, went into convulsions, was diagnosed with encephalitis, went into a coma and died. HOWEVER none of the doctors told my parents that this was likely a vaccine reaction. We didn't find this out until after my son had seizures after his vaccine (fortunately, he's fine now). And my niece developed a temp over 105. She now has epilepsy -- we don't know whether there's any connection.

Since that time, fortunately, a safer version of the DPT vaccine is available -- but that only came about because so much pressure was brought to bear on the govt. and manufacturers by parents demanding a safer vaccine.

That being said, my children have had all their vaccines, except for substituting the Td for the DTP after they experienced serious reactions to their first shots, and my ped and I made the connection to my sister's death. But I had the vaccinations spread out, because if a child is given more than one shot, how do you know which one caused any ensuing problems? Also, before I found my helpful pediatrician, I made a special trip to the public health dept for a killed virus polio vaccine when the only version my then doctor would give me was the live vaccine (which caused green diarrhea and a scorching red diaper rash on my daughter). And after the hep-B became available, I waited till my son was in 5th grade.

I am old enough to remember most of these diseases, too. But I think you are being awfully hard on parents who are doing their best to make intelligent choices for their children. The answer isn't nearly as one-sided as you would have them believe, and some of those vaccines make more sense and have better safety records than others.

[NMMNG]

52. Hepatitis B can be spread by any blood to blood contact

as well as sexual contact (which is why in many states health care facilities are required to give their employees the vaccination free of charge). Therefore it is possible for kids to spread it to one another.

[pnwmom]

55. But highly unusual for babies, don't you think?

Basically, it's spread like AIDS, according to what the doctors told me, and no one worries that a baby will get AIDS from casual contact.

[NMMNG]

72. Perhaps not babies

Unless they end up in day care or in nursery school as toddlers. If they have any broken skin it's a potential entry point for disease from a carrier or infected person. While it's only a remote possibility it's good to be covered because it's not always curable. Many people who contract Hep B go on to develop chronic Hepatitis B, which is a lifelong condition. Cirrhosis of the liver and other serious complications, including death, can be the result.

[NNadir]

68. Since you asked me to correct you if you're wrong, I will.

Sex is just one way one can get hepatitis B. Another way one can get it is from sharing a toothbrush or getting your ears pierced.

The hepatitis B virus is similar to AIDS in transmission, but in fact, the virus is more robust. In theory two kids with braces kissing, can transmit the disease to one another.

http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/immunization/HepB.htm

Here's how hepatitis B can be spread:

During sexual intercourse.
From sharing needles during drug use.
From infected needles, for example in a tattoo shop or when you have your ears or other parts of your body pierced.
From a woman to her baby during birth, or when she is pregnant.
From a woman to her baby during breastfeeding.
From sharing toothbrushes or razors (when blood has been in touch with the toothbrush or razor).
Between people who live under the same roof, when one person has hepatitis B.
How common is hepatitis B?

In Canada, there are about 20,000 new cases each year.
It is most common among young adults. They can get it from having sex without a condom. Sharing needles when they take drugs can spread hepatitis B. So can dirty needles that are used to do a tattoo or pierce ears or other body parts.
The number of babies born with hepatitis B is lower now than it used to be. This is because pregnant women are being tested for the disease and their babies are given the shot as soon as they are born.
In other parts of the world, hepatitis B is more common than in Canada. If you travel to China, southeast Asia or some parts of Africa you may be at higher risk.

Children, and I know this from the direct experience of having been a child, do things of which their parents are unaware.

Public health officials recommend the vaccination. These are people who are trained in public health. I don't think one goes into to that line of work because one is in a vast conspiracy to inflate pharmaceutical company stocks. I know that my view is unpopular in some quarters, but it is nonetheless my view.

The act of getting a vaccination is never an act of risk elimination. Risk elimination is impossible. This is demonstrated by the fact that there are zero people who are immortal. It is true that there are some people who have dangerous and even fatal reactions to vaccines. But they are extremely rare, much rarer than people who have dangerous and even fatal reactions of getting Hepatitis B infections. Instead vaccination is an act of risk minimization. By getting a vaccination for one's child, one maximizes the possibility that their children will live a healthy life.

By the way, I am personally aware of a woman in my town who had an asymptomatic infection, and who had the disease, and didn't know of it. Her children are also infected.

[pnwmom]

69. Nothing in your post supports universal hep-b vaccination

in infancy, though I agree that babies with risk factors should be vaccinated.

What the health dept. said to me is that they want babies to be vaccinated because it's easier to "get them" at this stage (i.e., because of all those well-baby visits). From this parent's point of view, that's not a good enough reason. None of my children were at any particular risk of getting this disease in elementary school (none of them were in daycare), and they had enough other vaccinations in infancy to contend with.

This whole issue came up in our family soon after the vaccine became available. On the one hand, the hospital was pushing it for our newborn, because this is what the govt. was recommending. There was a general recommendation to vaccinate babies before they left the hospital -- because they had them there and it was easy! At the same exact time, other doctors (and the health dept) were telling me there was no reason yet to vaccinate the baby's older siblings -- because they were in elementary school and the real risk of exposure wouldn't occur till they were older!!! (At that time there was a limited supply of the vaccine and the decision had been made to give it first to newborns.)

Universal hep-b vaccination in infancy is done for practical reasons related to broad goals of public health. But I think it's reasonable for parents to say, given my child's lack of risk factors, I'm going to wait until s/he's a bit older.

[NNadir]

71. You assume that everyone knows their risk factors.

They don't.

I don't know you from a hill of beans, but I have known people who have been stunned, for instance, to learn unexpectedly of infidelities. I have told you of a person in my town who would have certainly considered herself free of risk and yet she, and her children, have Hep B exposure.

You think that public health advice should be entrusted to people's self-reporting of their health factors. When I donate my blood, I fill out the form completely, and as it happens I tell the truth completely, but still they test my blood for AIDS and Malaria. Well they should. The technicians in question don't know me all that well, nor should they be required to understand everything about my personality before they handle my blood.

From where I sit, it's nonsense for you to claim that public health decisions for the entire population should be based on your personal experience.

In any case, you have no certainty that a 4 year old will avoid completely being exposed to a bodily fluid. It happens that people have gotten such infections from dentists or dental hygenists or a thousand other paths.

A situation of shortage is one thing, but a situation in which vaccines are freely available is another. One is an issue of minimizing risk with available resources, and the other is a matter of maximally using freely available resources to minimize global risk.

If I had to count on my fingers the number of people I have known who didn't know what was going on in their own lives, I should need a few thousand hands.

[pnwmom]

73. I'm not at all saying that public health recommendations should

be based on my own experience. I am saying that parents should be able to make informed decisions for their own children, based on the circumstances in their own lives. Otherwise, it is meaningless to give them consent forms to sign.

For example, when my son had the seizures after the DPt shot our doctor recommended he continue with the series anyway. When I discussed my concerns with my mother I learned for the first time that my sister had had encephalitis and died after the same shot. With that piece of family history, the doctor changed his mind and switched to the tD.

If I hadn't been one of those annoying parents who was confident enough to ask questions, my son would have continued with the DPT series. If he had died or suffered brain damage, I guess we should have comforted ourselves with the idea that it was all for the "greater good." And with the check for $250 K we would have gotten from the govt. vaccine compensation program.

[BrklynLiberal]

9. Here are sites with lots of info about whether or not to vaccinate.

It also has links to other sites that might prove helpful.
Definitely check them out.
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm


Vaccination decisions.
http://www.909shot.com/Issues/Intro_Message.htm


New Yorkers for Vaccine Information and Choice
http://goodlight.net/nyvic/

[kerouac]

16. Thank you very much. nt

[Klukie]

10. Funny you should ask that...

I just got home from my 1 year olds doctor visit for vaccines. I am not altogether anti-vaccine, but I worry alot about the risks. I have continued with the standard vaccines but I am refusing the Flu vaccine come the fall because I just don't see the justification for it. I just questioned the doctor this afternoon about the safety of vaccines and she provided me with some info. I have read most of it before and it never makes me any less nervous. I had a friend who refused all vaccines for her child (in PA). She has to sign something when her daughter is of age to attend school because the school districts require proof of vaccinations for enrollment. I didn't know her long enough or well enough to have any more info. than that. I have to admit that part of me goes along with the vaccines because society says I have to, not because I really feel good about it. Good luck.

[kerouac]

15. I hate being forced..

They really make you feel like a nutcase for even questioning the vaccines. I saw that there is a bill proposed in NY that would expand the exemption to 'philosophical objections" as well as religious objections. But it looks like nothing has been happening with the bill since early 2005.

I'm also not alltogether anti-vaccine. But when the disease itself is easily treated, then I don't see the need. And when the risk of getting it are low for a child, like hep-b, I also see no justification.

[pnwmom]

20. I waited on the hep-B, because I knew there was almost

no risk to my babies. They got the vaccine in their teens when it made more sense.

The only reason doctors do that one during infancy is because they think it will be harder to get those children later.

[trotsky]

53. Why do you suppose the risks of contracting some diseases are so low?

Do you think that it might just have something to do with vaccination?

People today are so far removed from the era when all sorts of illnesses took lives and physically maimed children for life, I think it's really hard for them to objectively look at just what the miniscule risks of vaccination are versus the real and fatal risks of deadly diseases that - and the irony here is thick as pea soup - are nearly eliminated THANKS to vaccination.

But they won't stay that way. Enough people buy into the vaccination scare-mongers, and we'll see resurgences of polio, of measles, of rubella, you name it. In all honesty, I shouldn't care. I'm vaccinated, my kids are vaccinated - we're good. But I care about those who can't get vaccinated. Or those whose parents are so woefully misinformed that they don't get vaccinated. I care about others, and that's why I defend vaccination.

[pnwmom]

56. On the other hand, it is pressure from concerned parents

that drives the government to produce safer vaccinations, like the split cell DPT vaccine that has fewer side effects than the old one. Or taking unnecessary mercury out of baby vaccines. (As for the argument that mercury is in the air: since the effect is additive, it's that much more important for a parent to limit exposure where s/he can.)

Based on some unfortunate personal experiences, I strongly feel that each vaccination and each child needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis, and I applaud parents who take it upon themselves to learn as much as possible.

I also think it's a mistake, driven only by convenience, to give more than one injection on a single day. If problems do occur and more than one injection has been given, you won't know which injection caused the effect.

The vast majority of children benefit from the standard vaccination schedule, though there have always been casualties, and we should be doing whatever we can to limit them.

I've posted more about this at #51, "Correct me if I'm wrong")

[trotsky]

58. Far too many people equate the mercury in the environment

with mercury in vaccines. It needs to be understood that mercury generally comes in two forms: elemental and in organic compounds. And the organic compounds are themselves in two forms: methylmercury and ethylmercury. Methylmercury is the kind we find in the environment, in fish, etc. It is readily absorbed and very slow to be eliminated. Ethylmercury is the kind found in thimerosal (vaccine preservative). It is much more readily eliminated from the body. People do a great disservice to the facts to muddle the differences.

I can certainly applaud parents who take the time and effort to educate themselves, but they are making a tragic mistake when they consider decades of proven success and testimony by the world's leading experts to be equal to the rants on an anti-science, anti-western medicine, anti-vaccination website. Like another big anti-science group, the creationists, they're big on continuing to repeat false claims, and misstating real scientific claims to make them weaker.

[pnwmom]

62. The issue with mercury still concerns me

and my husband, who teaches chemistry at the U. and is well aware of the difference in forms of mercury. The issue with thimerosol, other than the fact that it CAN and has been eliminated from the vaccine, is that owing to the number of vaccinations, babies were being given amounts of the ethylmercury that greatly exceeded the government's safety limits. And babies have developing neurological systems that can be insulted by much smaller amounts.

Overall, as I said, I think vaccinations are a great thing. But each person's situation is different, and the vaccine that is good for the vast majority might be the one that isn't good for one of your children. And when vaccines do have side effects, it is the parents who pressure the makers and the government to offer improvements -- and that is a good thing.

I agree that parents have to be very careful about evaluating the website you referred to; but I think you would reach more parents yourself by responding to their thoughtful concerns in a way that showed you understand they're just trying to do the best they can for their children, rather than trivializing their concerns. These are reality based, and if you want to know how they touched my own particular reality, you could read post 51. ("Correct me if I'm wrong.")

[trotsky]

64. The thimerosal scare

For one thing, the most common infant vaccine (MMR) never had thimerosal. It's one of the things that will immediately identify a quack site, if they throw the MMR vaccine in with the mercury scare.

In fact, virtually none of today's vaccines given to children have it. See http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.

All I'm saying is that despite parents' good intentions, even if vaccines did every bad thing that every fear-monger attributed to them, they'd STILL be less deadly and cause less morbidity than the diseases they prevent. Sure it's important not to trivialize concerns, but the concerns ARE trivial and this isn't a matter of "vaccinate or not, it's no big deal, do whatever you feel like."

On edit: the reaction your infant sister had may very well have happened had she been naturally exposed to diptheria, too.

[pnwmom]

65. Okay, I guess I'll lay it out again

As I said in my other post, my baby sister died from a vaccine reaction, and my family in general seems to be a hotbed of vaccine reactions (besides the problems in my and my children's generation, my mother lost a cousin due to the same vaccine, and another cousin was paralyzed.) When you are the family that has been affected, it doesn't matter really how rare the complications are in the general population. And when you are the mother that brought your child into a well-baby checkup and watched her die the next day . . . try living with that the rest of your life. That pain remains, even though you know that, in a vaccine-free world, the baby MIGHT have been exposed to the virus naturally.

Despite all this, my children have been close to fully vaccinated, although not always on the doctor's preferred schedule, since I prefer to spread them out even if it means extra trips to the office. My children have even received "optional" vaccinations from time to time (I was happy when a meningitis vaccine became available before my kids went to college). And all of us get our flu shots. So I'm not a Luddite on this issue. But I'm not a sheep either, thoughtlessly following whatever path the pharmaceutical industry or the current government wants me to take.

[trotsky]

66. I was wondering when that would happen.

Invariably in these discussions it does. Those of us who argue for vaccination always end up being cast as tools of the pharmaceutical industry, or dupes following the Republican administration.

[pnwmom]

67. It isn't the content of what you are saying that bothers me

nearly as much as the attitude, which comes across as dogmatic and a bit superior and not responsive to a parent's thoughtful and loving concerns.

There's an expression I hear among nurses to refer to a type of doctor. "M.Deity." I'm suspicious of M.Deity's. Whatever they may think, they're just as human as anyone else, as are scientists and the pharma industry. For the best care, patients and health care providers need to work together -- as adults -- rather than patients passively following "Doctor knows best."

Interesting how you ignored my whole post except for the last sentence . . .

[trotsky]

70. Likewise.

As you have ignored several things I've said, too.

[kerouac]

59. Not exactly correct there..

Quite a few things you're ignoring in your post. Just to be quick.. vaccines are not 100% effective. So you and your kids may not be 'good' and you may never have been 'good' because of the vaccines you were given. And unless you've been getting boosters, you may no longer be 'good' even if you once were. Just think, all this time you and your kids may have been completely 'unprotected' from the diseases, yet you never contracted them.. a lot of people are walking around with a false sense of immunity.

Which brings me to your main point of "Why do you suppose the risks of contracting some diseases are so low" in the first place. Over the past several decades, more people have clean water, sewers, and access to medicine and treatment for diseases. Our overall living conditions have had a huge impact on the diseases you seem to think vaccines have the only role in preventing. If I was living in China or some third world country, I would be faced with a much different risk/benefit situation.

[trotsky]

61. Never said vaccines were 100% effective.

That's part of the reason why it's important to have as many people as possible immunized, to hopefully provide what's termed "herd immunity" - reaching a level of immunity in a population that prevents a disease from having enough of a chain of susceptible people to spread readily.

People who are otherwise healthy and choose not to immunize are exposing themselves, their family, AND other innocent people to unnecessary risk. It's a very selfish decision.

[thereismore]

13. We did that. Our son is 10, very healthy, happy. nt

[kerouac]

18. Wow. Please tell me more.

Was it a religious exemption?
Did you have to file affadavits? With who?
Were you able to get some vaccines, but refuse others?
Was it hard finding a pediatrician?
Have you run into many restrictions because of it?

Thanks so much. :)

[thereismore]

54. OK, the scoop:

Since he was born, we lived in 3 states, OH, NM and CA. In OH hospital, his guardian angel told me to say NO when they wanted to inject him with a hep-B vaccine. That virus can only be obtained through blood exchange or sex. He was a baby, so I thought surely this is unnecessary. Then I learned about the connection between non-specific stress and SIDS. It appears that non-specific stress can be caused by vaccination, notably the "P" component in the DPT vaccine. So we found a pediatrician who did not fuss when we told him we would not vaccinate. BTW, did you know that the only way to get polio at the time was to get vaccinated? It's true. Since then the CDC banned (!) the live vaccine which was touted as perfectly safe and necessary for your child, and replaced it with the dead virus vaccine, whose efficacy is questionable. Anyway, in NM he was homeschooled, so there was no school issue. In CA, we filled out a form saying "we have a conscientious objection to vaccination", and that was it. The law provides for it (in CA) and the school has to accept him. They did not say as much as a word, in fact, they were not even surprised. Our family physician once said "tsk tsk" and said we are using the fact that other parents do their civic duty and vaccinate their kids, but did not put pressure on us to vaccinate. We have switched to another doctor since. The only thing you have to be aware of in CA is that, by law, if there is an outbreak of an infectious disease, your kid may be temporarily banned from school. I guess that's for protection, who'se I don't know. That's about it.

Research your state's laws on this, I think you will find some mention of the vaccination issue in the State Code. Years ago there were only two states that did not allow any vaccination exemption, and that wasn't even strictly enforced. All you need to do in that case is ask whoever is forcing you to vaccinate your child to sign a sworn statement that they guarantee that nothing will happen to your child when s/he gest vaccinated. You will have your exemption right away.

Vaccines are dangerous to some kids. Evidence is mounting. Mercury cannot be a good thing. Kids allergic to eggs should not get some vaccines where the virus was "attenuated" in chick embryos. There's a lot to talk about, but basically I think that the new recombinant vaccines are safe in principle - what makes them unsafe are the adjuvants and preservatives which are toxic. Some kids react violently to those, some don't. A doctor is required by law to have a syringe of norepinephrine ready in case your kid goes to anaphylactic shock right then and there. Ask your doc where is his epi syringe ready when he says that the stuff is safe.

Good luck.

[Ian David]

17. No. Because that would be stupid and socially irresponsible.

And I don't want my kid playing near your disease-infested brood.

[kerouac]

19. Wake up..

Wake up and smell the measles. Those shots they pumped into your brood didn't guarantee anything. They can still get most of the diseases, or variations of them. And if your vaccinated kid did get the measles or German measles or Chicken Pox, it would be easily treated. If you read the actual inserts from the vaccine makers, there are lots of nasty, possible side effects. Those "rare" reactions (like death) add up to lots of kids that would have easily licked the disease if they got it (like german measles).

[pnwmom]

21. Actually, I was thankful when the chicken pox vaccine

became available, because it was such a nightmare for my oldest -- several hundred spots on her face alone, spots in her throat, around her eyes, etc. Some of them got infected. It isn't always the uncomplicated disease that it is portrayed to be.

And I would never, ever take my child to a "chicken pox party" because I would have to live with the guilt if encephalitis turned out to be the result.

[kerouac]

23. Neither would I.

I would never take my child to a chicken pox party either. And I'm not totally antivaccine, but I am against dozens of shots over the course of 15-18 months, starting at birth. I don't claim these diseases are uncomplicated, but the vaccines are not 100% effective and they can cause serious side effects (even death or a form of the disease itself). I'd rather spread them out over several years.

[pnwmom]

27. How does the exemption thing work in your state?

It really wasn't necessary for me to do anything until my kids actually hit school. So if you wanted to spread your vaccines out -- which I agree, makes a lot of sense -- maybe you could wait until your baby's older? Especially if s/he isn't going to daycare.

[kerouac]

30. Religous only.

From what I gather, you have to submit an affadavit refusing vaccination due to religious beliefs. You apparently provide this to the school and your doctors. I guess many doctors will refuse to treat your child without all the vaccines.

When we suggested spreading them out at the initial consult/physical, we were told that they stick to the schedule and that we may need to find another pediatritian's office if we don't go along with it.

Their main reason as to why we need them all so soon was that it would be more convenient for us, and that the child wouldn't remember getting the shots. If we got them later, our kid will remember the shots and become afraid of the doctors office. How ridiculous is that for a reason?

They also said they wouldn't break the mmr up for us into an m, m, and an r (which I was told is possible to do).

Our child will not be in daycare, so we have time before public school starts. And some of the vaccine recommendations list 14 years old as the age to get it by. Why force us to get it now? Seems crazy.

[pnwmom]

32. I hate to say this, but it might be a sign that this pediatric

group isn't the right place for you. If they're this rigid about this . . . just a thought.

[kerouac]

35. Working on it..

Yes, I agree. We are working on that now. We have about 2 months before they try to cram the hep-b down our throats, so you best believe I'm going to be looking all over for a different practice. If for no other reason, it's because of how they reacted to simple questions. Thanks for laying that out there. Perfect suggestion.

[pnwmom]

36. Have you read "Listening to your Baby"?

http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBJulAug03p151.html

I found this on the La Leche League website. From the review of the book by Jay Gordon:

"Particularly notable is the chapter on vaccinations and illnesses, in which Dr. Gordon reviews the benefits and risks associated with childhood immunization. Neither blindly pro-vaccination nor radically against all forms of immunization, Dr. Gordon believes that some vaccinations can be highly effective in preventing the incidence and spread of many dangerous diseases. But he also feels that, due to the known occurrence of serious side effects and the potential for overwhelming a baby's immature immune system, routine shots should not be given to infants younger than six months. For babies over that age, he prefers a modified schedule whereby only the most proven and, in his opinion, truly essential vaccinations are spread out over a much longer period of time than the standard pediatric schedule currently recommends. Dr. Gordon admits to being in disagreement with most of his colleagues regarding vaccination and he urges parents to become thoroughly informed and initiate extensive discussions with their children's health care providers. He cautions parents against becoming overly reliant on any one particular point of view, and believes they should be pro-active in forming their own educated opinions."

So, as I said, they might be a good resource for you.

[kerouac]

38. Beautiful. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Great excerpt. Sounds reasonable. I just went and requested it from our library. They have the coolest online system so you can request titles, hold, renew, etc. It's awesome. I'll check it out. :)

[pnwmom]

39. You're welcome. Hope you're not too exhausted to read it.

[kerouac]

41. Maybe I'll just get the movie :)

[pnwmom]

44. LOL

[pnwmom]

34. Here's another thought. When I went through this years

ago, there was a group of mothers who tended to be very well informed and to think everything like this through -- the La Leche League. (The breast feeding organization -- the group of mothers that successfully made doctors re-think the issue of bottle feeding.) Are they active in your area? Perhaps someone there could give you a referral to a compatible doctor.

[kerouac]

40. Yes. Found them online.

Wow. You are just full of great info. I just googled 'em and found their website (http://www.lalecheleague.org/) and they do have a local group. My wife has been having some issues with breastfeeding, so this is a double bonus. We'll get in touch with them. Thank you so much!

[pnwmom]

43. Best of luck. I found the group very helpful. When I was

involved, there were a lot of stay at home moms in the group, but don't let that bother you if your wife is going back to work. This is an intelligent group of women who like to think for themselves, and who are volunteering their time to help other families. (My mother was friends with one of the founders who began this org in the 50's, when doctors gave breastfeeding women very little support.)

Hopefully, you and your wife might find some good support there, as I did.

P.S. I don't know how old your baby is, but I found I had to nurse my first practically non-stop in the first several weeks. Definitely more often than most of the books said. But once the supply was established, things got easier.

[BrklynLiberal]

48. My son was born 35 years ago, and no one I knew was breastfeeding.

I had decided that I was going to breastfeed my baby, and was very determined. If it had not been for La Leche League, I don't know what I would have done.

They are a very generous and supportive group.

[pnwmom]

50. You were among the vanguard!

[BrklynLiberal]

60. Yes. It was interesting. Not one of my friends had ever known anyone

who nursed their baby. The only support I got was from the La Leche League.
I had a wonderful pediatrician, but even he wanted me to start solid food at 6 weeks. SO, I told him that I was following his schedule, and saved all the feeding programs that he gave me, and started them when my son was 6 months old. The doctor never knew that David was getting only breast milk for about 6 months.
I started the solid food on the schedule he had given me when my son was 6 momths old.
David was just fine, and my doctor was always very pleased when we came in for checkups.
I nursed for 9 months, and at that point it was my son who weaned himself. He was nursing only before going to sleep for his nap and at night. He lost interest at that point, and then I first when thru post-partum depression :D

He never had a bottle. I gave him one of those tippy cups to play with when he about three months old, and by 6 months, he would drink water from it.
At 9 months, he was eating solid food, and drinking out of the cup.

[pnwmom]

63. I remember my mother-in-law hovering over my shoulder

at first when I was trying to nurse. She hadn't done it herself and was awfully curious, it seemed! Didn't exactly help the situation.

Maybe someone famous has already said this, but it's a little like a dance, don't you think? As you and the baby, over and over during the course of a day or weeks or months, make these little or big adjustments to each other. The baby's appetite ebbs and flows, your milk ebbs and flows, you have your "frequency days," then your easy days . . . I had almost forgotten what it was like. Yes, La Leche definitely made it easier for me too -- taught me a bunch of the steps!

Nice talking to you BrklynLiberal!

[BrklynLiberal]

74. A little dance is a perfect description. It brings back wonderful memories

to talk about it. It was a wonderful experience and I was so glad I had opted to nurse. Almost felt a little sad for those who had missed it. There were moments that were exquisitely intimate and loving. It was difficult to imagine that bottle-feeding would have engendered those moments.
AND I never had to sorry about carrying around bottles and formula. It made traveling a bit easier. We went away for a couple of weeks when David was 5 months old, and I di dnot have to pack any extras for his feeding.
I remember we got stuck in traffic for hours on one occasion...and I did not have to worry about how I was going to feed him.
All in all, I would highly recommend it for many, many reasons-physical, emotional and certainly for the health of the baby.

[sir_captain]

25. There is a flip side to that

To say that normally vaccinated diseases are easily treatable is not really true. The vast majority of vaccinations are for virally contracted diseases, for which there are almost exactly no treatments. Sure, in most cases, an otherwise healthy child will recover from something like the measles on the strength of his or her own immune system, but I would suggest to you that the odds of complications resulting from something like rubella, or polio, or even the chicken pox, though rare, could very well outweigh the risks associated with vaccination itself; particularly keeping in mind that most childhood diseases increase very dramatically in strength when they are contracted by adults.

Anyway, just food for thought, though you seem to have already made up your mind.

[kerouac]

28. Good points.

You have some good points. Especially regarding the disease being worse as an adult. Very true. Some of the vaccines, however, lose their effectiveness over time (like hep-b), making them almost worthless as an adult. And again, some people aren't protected at all from the vaccines.

I would rather spread the vaccines out over several years, instead of the first few months of infancy, and at least have the right to refuse some or all of them without relying on a religious exemption. I would also appreciate it if healthcare providers wouldn't diminish the real concerns of parents and brush-off risks that parents ask about. Also, there are situations where kids should not receive the vaccine according to the manufacturer..

And while there is a lot of speculation out there about the correlation between autism, sids, allergies, auto-immune disease, adhd, etc., speculation could easily turn into reality once all the facts and figures are digested.

All food for thought.. and I wish my mind was made up. It's leaning pretty good, though.

[Kailassa]

31. As my granddaughter could not be fully vaccinated,

and my son not at all, I've had to seriously think about the facts you're presenting here.

My answer has been to work carefully with diet, excercise and supplements to keep them as healthy as possible, and to make sure they have opportunities to catch anything contagious. And yes, this includes things like "chicken-pox parties".

Everything carries risks, but I decided the risk of being vulnerable to these diseases in adulthood far outweighed the risk of catching them as children.

This was going completely against the advice of my pediatrician, who wanted me to keep my son away from other children and protect him from catching anything. But the pediatrician believed my son would inevitably die young, and I could not believe that. So I did everything I could to toughen him up, and now he's a robust 24 y o.

[BrklynLiberal]

49. Good for you!!!!

:thumbsup: :hi:

[pnwmom]

22. I'm old enough to remember what having many of those

diseases is like, and so I'm thankful for most vaccines. On the other hand, I've taken a cautious approach to having my kids vaccinated.

For example, we stopped the DPT's and switched to Td's after serious side effects occurred. (But we started the series because Pertussis itself is very serious and the more babies that can be vaccinated without complications, the better for all.) The current version of the DPT has many fewer side effects than the one they used when my kids were babies.

I sought out killed-virus Polio vaccines at a time when it was almost impossible to find them. (Now it's standard.)

We postponed vaccines that weren't needed in infancy, like the hep-b.

If I had known about mercury, I would certainly have insisted on mercury-free vaccines.

Good luck. It's a tough decision, but I'd recommend considering each vaccine on a case-by-case basis.

[kerouac]

24. Great advice.

Very tough decisions indeed. Sounds like you took it very seriously. I am considering them on a case by case basis, but they try to cram them ALL down your throat. I'm afraid that it's either all or nothing if I have to use an exemption. The hep-b at birth to 2 mos really gets my goat. And some doctors make you feel stupid for even questioning the safety or fearing the risks. As if we don't care enough to 'protect' our kids from something that they have a very small chance of every getting (especially as an infant).

Thanks!

[pnwmom]

26. That's too bad about the exemption. Here in WA I think

it can still be requested separately for each vaccination.

What happens if you delay the hep-B but don't have your child in school yet? Is there any sanction?

The best medical decision I made was finding a terrific pediatrician -- but I only found her when my oldest was almost 5.

So I'd say the most important thing may be finding a compatible pediatrician or family practice doctor who really listens to you, welcomes all your questions, and whom you trust.

[Snow]

75. You might want to look at a way to get those tetanus and

diptheria vaccines done as well. You're absolutely right about pertussis; it's damn scary - I've helped handle an outbreak in a non-vaccinated community in Appalachia. But I've also seen diptheria overseas - a gray necrotic throat in a small child is terrifying - and tetanus is excrutiating. Something people don't realize is that reducing the rate of disease in people down to nearly nothing doesn't mean you've gotten rid of the bug. Some of these, like tetanus, have happy homes in the soil, and some, like diptheria, have other hosts or simply hang out in humans in non-nasty form. Often when adults have a persistent annoying cough that they can't quite shake, it turns out to have been the pertussis bug. Just because reports of a given disease to the CDC are very low, doesn't mean the bug has vanished.

[Kailassa]

29. If you are a bit "on the fence" re vaccination and get talked into it,

remember that there are things you can do to make vaccination safer.

A child who is thoroughly healthy and well nourished is much more likely to go through vaccinations with no ill effects that a less healthy, malnourished child is. And the healthy child is more likely to aquire good, long-lasting antibodies through vaccination.

Putting a vaccination off until the child is 4 can be a good compromise too, this way the child's system is much better equipped to handle any bad reaction. My daughter did this as I had horrid nightmares about my granddaughter being immunised, and talked her out of it, but then her doctor talked her into it. It turned out that this kid was one of the few who do experience serious side-effects, and she spent the next week in hospital. The doctor believed that it was only being older that saved her life.

I also refused to have one of my own children vaccinated, because he had serious allergy problems and never looked healthy, and this son was later diagnosed with something like Aids, but a type you are born with, it's not inherited or contagious. The curious thing, regarding autism risk, is that it is my unvaccinated son who is a bit autistic. He has aspergers.

[kerouac]

42. Thank you for your posts.

Thank you for your posts. You made some excellent points and suggestions. A lot has to do with the immune system, and I've read some opinions where they feel the onslaught of vaccinations starting at birth can hurt the immune system. Kids end up being less able to defend themselves naturally against diseases. Why do infants need so many shots? It just doesn't seem right to me. Let them get their legs under them first.. As I mentioned elsewhere here, my nephew is being evaluated now for asd. He should have been evaluated years ago, but my sister was in denial. Oh how we pushed her. She wants so badly for him to be 'normal' that she essentially ignored his problems. Now, at 7-1/2, he can't go to the bathroom by himself, barely eats, doesn't communicate, the list goes on.. One of my fears is that over-vaccination will trigger a genetic pre-disposition in my child towards autism, since it may be in the family genes.

Thanks again :)

[pnwmom]

45. About your nephew.

If he has digestive disturbances as well, that could be relevant. Some doctors think symptoms of autism can be aggravated (if not triggered) by gluten and milk intolerance. Might be worth looking into if he has symptoms. Doctors are just now starting to realize how common this is.

In general I strongly agree with the poster above who said that the healthier your baby is, the better able to handle the coming vaccinations.

[Kailassa]

47. I don't know that this would work for your nephew,

and it's probable your advice would not be acted on anyway, but just in case, I'll tell you what worked for my autistic son.

I used a blender to make him milk out of almonds and sesame seeds, to supply plenty of magnesium and zinc to feed his brain, and sometimes made soy milk. He had bronchitis, athsma, diarhea and rashes all the time, so I kept him right off milk , (except when I had my own goats,) and all avoidable chemicals. He also got plenty of vitamin C, fish oil, and deep-sea fish.

Breakfast was home-made muesli made with organically grown oats. (Much yummier than regular oats) Lunch was usually based on brown rice or home-made rye-bread. Dinner was usually a bunch of pretty bowls, each containing an attractively cut up raw vegetable, and a hot dish of beans and lentils. This was all done on the cheap, I was very broke in those days.

Like the other aspies I've known personally, my kid eats best if different foods are kept separate and he is free to nibble, rather than having to eat a meal.

I had one rule for all my kids with any new food; they had to taste it. They were welcome to then spit it out, but everything had to be tasted. Now they love trying new foods, and have become real gourmets. ;-)

And, as an afterthought, they had no soda drinks unless they were offered them when visiting. The only fizzy drink at hope was apple cider, containing nothing but apples. Now they are adults, all three prefer that to wine, and hate beer, so I get those indulgences all to myself.

:toast:

[Sgent]

33. FYI

in at least a few states, vaccination requirements (inc Hep B) apply not just to school -- but to any gathering of 5 or more children which involves money (daycare, preschool, etc).

I would definately call you county health department for specifics of your locality -- including what (if any) procedures you will have to follow to exempt yourself if you choose.

Also keep in mind that some (many?) states have no exemption clauses except for the health of the child (which must be signed off on by the county health dept physician). This could effect you at a later point if you move.

[kerouac]

37. Thank you very much.

I'll get in touch with the county. Thanks for the suggestion. I hope they are helpful. I've read stories of where people were given the wrong info (told their kids would not be allowed into school), even though they would have been able to with the exemption. We'll see. The only exemption on the books in NY right now, as far as I can tell, is the religious exemption. Although, they amended the law so that you don't have to actually 'prove' an affiliation with a church or provide specifics, witnesses, etc.. The amended law pretty much says that a doctor, school, etc., can't require you to prove your religious-ness. Good point about moving. Imagine moving only to find out your kid can't go to school, etc.. Talk about a nightmare.

Thanks again. Great input! :)

[HuckleB]

57. We are giving our 5 month old boy all vaccinations.

Though we are waiting until toddlerhood to give him the hepB series, and one other that I cannot remember at this moment, and we may not give him a flu shot this fall. At this point, we are giving him only those vaccines focused on illnesses likely to occur at his current age. Those vaccines that can wait, will be given in the next couple of years.

It's not an easy decision for parents. No decision is easy, as ob/gyn and early peds seem to be practiced without an evidential basis much more often than other types of practices, so it's difficult to fully trust the docs, IMHO. Still, the evidence base regarding vaccines without mercury is fairly solid. Still, knowing that, we chose to defer some recommendations until later, so we are fully aware of the emotions and difficulty involved in such decisions.