What are your honest thoughts on homeopathy? POLL

[EvolveOrConvolve]

I think people know what I think about homeopathy (read my signature link). I want to get a gauge of the overall DU opinion on homeopathy.

Please don't turn this into a flame-war - that's NOT my intention.

[Newsjock]

1. I think what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom is --

Oh wait, never mind.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

2. LOL - I just had a serious DU Lounge deja' vu moment

But seriously, what adults decide to do for their own health is their business.

[LeftishBrit]

3. I don't think it works, and wouldn't recommend it...

At least it's unlikely to actively harm you; literally nothing in it.

[donco6]

4. Snake oil must work for SOMETHING. n/t

[MineralMan]

25. Sure. If your snake needs a lube job, nothing else will do.

[donco6]

32. On that, we find perfect agreement. n/t

[elfin]

5. Have relatives who swear by it

They are from other countries -- and have a close relative from here who is embarking on such treatment for continued sinus problems that have not been successfully treated by standard treatment.

Am open to the philosophy, but think the solutions used need to be tested.

My non-USA relatives get their solutions from elsewhere and seem very satisfied. This is for chronic sinus problems, nothing more that I know of.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

6. Is it homeopathic remedies they use, or naturopathic remedies?

There's a huge difference between the two. Some natural remedies actually work (or can cause great harm).

Homeopathic remedies are essentially water: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

While they're both considered alternative medicine, there's a vast difference in the methods used to treat and/or prevent illness.

[HuckleB]

26. LOL!

Tell 'em to buy better wine with their money. It works just as well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. The scientific method is your friend when it comes to exposing such frauds

[EvolveOrConvolve]

11. According to my fundie co-worker

The scientific method is of the devil and was warned about in Revelations. And since I believe that anecdotal evidence from someone with a 10th grade education is preferable to real hard data, she MUST be correct.

Right? :)

(For the sarcastically challenged, I'm being facetious)

[Cirque du So-What]

8. Quackery

Why would anyone believe homeopathy works (discounting the placebo effect, of course)?

[Warpy]

9. I chose the first choice but with one exception

Homeopathy should be used for the people it was designed for: hypochondriacs.

For everyone else, it's worthless and a waste of money.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

12. That's an interesting idea

As a nurse, did you see a lot of hypochondriacs? Are doctors ethically allowed to prescribe water to a hypochondriac and tell them that it's real medicine?

[Warpy]

19. Actually, I did. That didn't mean they didn't also have some legitimate

medical issues. What we did is treat their medical issues while allowing them to dose themselves out of the little box of homeopathic nostrums they had with them.

We only saw them when they had something real that the homeopathy wasn't going to touch and they couldn't ignore it any more.

We simply didn't interfere with their usual regimen since we knew it wouldn't do anything, at all.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

22. So these patients had their own homeopathic remedies that they brought with them?

They weren't given those by the doctor?

[Warpy]

30. No, doctors don't prescribe useless snake oil.

Homeopaths do

[Celebration]

47. well, there are homeopathic MDs, for sure

Just not many of them..........

[Chemisse]

38. It makes sense to me that homeopathy would be really good

For people with a lot of anxiety about their bodies (ie hypochondriacs) who feel better if they are in control of their treatment.

Still, there are many natural plus scientifically valid ways to affect your own health, and anything that directs people away from logical, scientific thinking represents a step backwards for humanity.

[BlueJazz]

10. I don't know what you're talking about but I don't like it. No Siree, I don't like it one bit.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

13. You don't know what it is? Or you don't like it?

I'm confuzzled. :shrug:

[BlueJazz]

42. Sorry....That line is from some movie. This guy was asking a question...

...about Homo-sapiens and the father of his girlfriend ( A dumb-ass right winger) thought he was talking about Gays.

I was just being silly.

:) :)

[EvolveOrConvolve]

52. Oh, oops! My lack of knowledge of cultural references is showing

:hi:

[HBravo]

14. How about blood letting. nt

:sarcasm:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

15. That's a different form of alt medicine.

It's in the same league with prayer healing except more painful and bloody.

[HBravo]

16. nt

:rofl:

[bemildred]

17. Other: I don't really care.

If people want to use it, fine. If they don't want to use it, fine. I am generally not in favor of interfering with people's health care choices.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

20. I'm against interferring too - I don't want someone telling me what to do with my body

But, what if a parent chose homeopathy for their child over conventional treatment? Would it be okay if the child had a cold? What about for cancer?

Where is that ethical line drawn?

[bemildred]

24. That is a tougher question.

When dealing with legal adults, if they make their own choices and it leads to death or unfortunate consequences, well, that was their choice. Evolution in action. If you drive your car stupid or get eaten by a shark, nobody considers it some sort of moral issue.

With children, you have conflicting imperatives, one to protect the child, two to respect the parents rights, three society's interest in it's future members, and four to respect the child's autonomy. I don't have a handy ruleset to resolve that.

[laconicsax]

34. Since when is murder a parental right?

Parents have an obligation to provide for their children to the best of their ability. Electing to use homeopathy, faith-healing, or crystals as treatment for illness balks at that obligation.

[bemildred]

39. LOL.

:popcorn:

[HuckleB]

28. Jail for parents who allowed daughter to die

http://www.smh.com.au/national/jail-for-parents-who-allowed-daughter-to-die-20090928-g8x2.html

Jail is where they belong, but no kid should have to go through that.

[Posteritatis]

83. I draw it at the vendors and advertisers making claims for the stuff

They should be prosecuted.

[HuckleB]

27. It's not a health care choice.

[elocs]

18. I think the same of it as I do of heteropathy.

:rofl: I kill me!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

21. Hey, we're a big tent!

And I was actually thinking about putting that option as the last one instead of "Other".

[EvolveOrConvolve]

23. I just realized a flaw in my poll

I think that many of those who might subscribe to the efficacy of homeopathy may have me on ignore. :(

[HuckleB]

29. I don't know.

If more than 1 in 5 DUers think it works, and even more think it's worth trying, we might be in bigger trouble than I thought.

[Quantess]

31. It depends on what it is.

Crystals on chakras? No.
Herbal remedies? Sure.
Vitamins? Yes, absolutely.

[laconicsax]

33. None of those things are homeopathy.

You might want to look into what homeopathy is before you start conflating it with other things.

[Quantess]

35. You're right. I posted before thinking.

But, all of those things, and homeopathy, have been called "woo" by some DUers.

[laconicsax]

36. For good reason.

Crystals on chakras? Based on nonsense and superstition (a subset of nonsense)
Herbal remedies? The ones that actually work are called "medicine" and used appropriately. The ones that don't work are heralded by the woo-sters as 'alternative' medicine i.e. medicine that's been shown to not work.
Vitamins? Depends on what vitamins and how they're used.

Homeopathy, on the other hand, is based on an 18th century understanding of science and medicine that has been shown to be absolutely false.

The invention of homeopathic medicine went something like this:

18th century moron notices that some substances used in treatment of various ailments will elicit a reaction similar to the ailment itself. Therefore, whatever imbalance of bodily humors that causes disease must be cured by substances which create a similar imbalance of bodily humors.

18th century moron then tests his hypothesis by administering treatment in different strengths. He found that the patients who got the strongest dosage of medicine usually got much worse while those who got extreme dilutions eventually got better (provided they weren't dying to begin with). Therefore, diluting a substance makes it more potent as a treatment.

Meanwhile, Louis Pasteur discovers the germ theory of disease which completely undermines the foundation of homeopathy's 'law of similars.' Homeopaths take this in stride and pretend like it doesn't matter.

Also, (though a bit earlier) atomic theory shows that serial dilutions actually remove a percentage of the the original quantity and that the serial dilution of homeopathic remedies leaves at most a statistically negligible amount of the original substance and usually absolutely none of it. Homeopaths then propose that homeopathy works because water is magic.

[Quantess]

37. Interesting. Thank you for the primer, distinguishing it from alternative medicine.

It's sort of like when you have a vague idea about a definition of a word, and then when you look it up in the dictionary, you realize you had only had a muddy grasp of the meaning.

[SidDithers]

40. Shit and sugar, nothing more...nt

Sid

[Crunchy Frog]

41. I don't believe homeopathy works

I can't imagine any concievable mechanism by which it might work. That being said, I think it is harmless (as long as it is not being used as a replacement for effective therapies for serious illnesses), and I think that in some people it may provide an effective way of harnessing the placebo effect.

Therefore I am not offended or bothered if some people use it and feel that it works for them.

[Orrex]

43. An interesting spread among the results so far.

For the record, I went with Option 1.

[Tumbulu]

44. I find it odd that there are so many who have not even tried

one homeopathic remedy. I find it weird that a group of intelligent people are so afraid to try something that they think has no effect and then write it off vehemently because it does not make sense to them. How many of you have tried alcohol/tobacco/pot- with all sorts of known dangers and yet you won't even try a homeopathic remedy to see if it helps with some minor problem?

Smacks of a closed mind, or perhaps perfectly funded health insurance.

I wonder if you tied the poll to just those of us who have no health insurance (or at least very expensive health insurance - $2500 deductible and no medications covered) what the results would be.

As I have said before they really help me with wasp stings and minor bruises and runny noses. I am grateful for the relief they give me. When I speak with my friends from Europe they ask "why are Americans so weird about homeopathy?"

Just because we cannot understand how something might work, it does not mean that it does not work for some. They are not supposed to work if you drink alcohol, caffeine or smoke anything. So, this leaves what maybe 15% of the population? What do you think? For those few of us that don't drink or smoke, be happy we are not crowding doctor's offices with troubles we are handling all by ourselves for $0.10 a dose at the most.

I find the hysteria about this subject on this board to be juvenile at best.

[BuddhaGirl]

45. +1

:thumbsup:

[HuckleB]

46. Oh Boy.

On Open-mindedness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

Plausibility in Science-Based Medicine
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4178

The placebo effect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsFTgirKXHk

The Placebo Effect
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4151

You were saying?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

48. I'm interested to see what

you think the mechanism is by which homeopathy cures, prevents or treats wasp stings, bruises and runny noses. Seriously, I'm not mocking you - I really want to know what you think about it.

Also, do you think homeopathy is an effective replacement for health insurance? In some instances? All instances?

[Tumbulu]

49. The mechanism claimed seems nonsensical and or beyond my comprehension,

but the effect is real on me. Now, it could be real for me because I am particularly optimistic and so the placebo effect is what is working. Great- $0.10 and I feel better- a very cheap way for me to tap into my placebo effect. But, I have inadvertently taken the wrong remedy (I keep arnica for reduction of bruising and swelling and apis for stings ) in my purse and noticed it wasn't working and then took the correct one and it worked. I have tried remedies that did not work for me, so I don't buy them anymore. Big wow, A loss of $5. But when I did not have my apis and I get stung I am in pain for hours vs 15 minutes with the remedy. I have been using that remedy for 9 years now.

But because it makes no sense to me, or you, it does not mean that it is nonsensical to give it a try.

I wish everyone (including me) had health insurance that was affordable or better yet universal. I see homeopathy as a wonderful inexpensive help for minor matters and I suspect that those of us with little or no insurance are more experimental when it comes to trying these sorts of things out. If you can just go to the doctor for anything, then perhaps you would never feel the need to try anything out of the norm.

[HuckleB]

67. And you haven't looked into the reasons for the supposed "real effect?"

[Tumbulu]

68. As I said in my post above it does not make sense to me

but I am a practical person. I farm, I raise sheep, I have lived long enough to know that what is important to me is what happens. I try not to limit myself by requiring that if I understand the mechanisms of that action.

I remember when my daughter was a baby and she had colic. All my mother friends said to try homeopathic chamomile. It sounded ridiculous to me, I would not try it. At that point I had only used arnica for falling off my horse and other bruising sorts of falls. But one of the mom's convinced me to try it and it was shocking, my daughter would stop screaming immediately. I tried using homeopathic arnica a few times, thinking that it must be the effect of the sugar, but only the chamomile worked.

Again, I just cannot figure out why the people on this group are so unscientific. A scientist tries very hard to keep an open mind, test and record results. Understanding a mode of action is not necessary to record a result. If something works, has no side effects and is cheap- what is the problem? So what if my mind does not grasp it. I am happy that it works for me and for my daughter. I have had no luck with any remedies of these remedies on my sheep. I have a dairy farmer friend who uses only homeopathy to treat his cows, hasn't used an antibiotic for mastitis in 15 years, so he believes that they work on his cows. Lots of livestock people use these remedies. Not one livestock person I have met who uses the remedies has cared about why it works. All they care about is if it works.

edited to correct spelling

[HuckleB]

69. A practical person looks at actual evidence and plausibility, IMO.

On True Open Mindedness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

On Plausibility:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4178

[HuckleB]

70. Homeopathy Gets a Reality Check in the UK

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3961

A very good explanation of the reality and lack of plausibility of homeopathy.

[TZ]

72. I work in a lab

And I can actually quantify amount of drug in the system and effects on the body based on dilution. So I KNOW for a fact that homeopathic remedies are based on bullshit because I see how it works. This claim that someone can dilute something 10000000000 times and it works is complete bullshit. Or are you going to tell me a professional biologist, that I don't know what I'm talking about? I probably know more on this topic than 99.9% of anyone here. The placebo effect however is very powerful, but homeopthy is complete and utter nonsense.

[Tumbulu]

73. You have limited yourself to what your mind can understand and quantify

with current technology. I suggested that in order to assess something scientifically one tests and records results. One does not say "this cannot work so I will not test it". This is a form of fundamentalism that is exactly the same to me as what the fundies espouse.

But instead of a bible one is limited by current technology and the limitations of their brain. Which however brilliant has limitations.

I have not said that you do not know what you are talking about. I say I do not understand how or why it would work. But some remedies work for me and for others. And I say, thank you very much. Simple.

[HuckleB]

75. Any way you look at homeopathy, it doesn't work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

The only people who are limiting themselves in this day and age, are those who pretend to have "open minds," but are really allowing themselves to fall for scams.

[TZ]

85. The laws of physics and biology

Do not change because people believe it. The concepts of homeopathy are like saying- I can fly if I believe in it hard enough! Certain things do work- willow bark is where you get aspirin after all- but the concept of water with memory, is complete crap- and anyone with HS chemistry should know that.

[Deep13]

86. A complete lack of a theoretical basis for it working...

...is pretty strong evidence that it doesn't. How the hell can a solution that contains no curative agents work? Add to that clinical evidence that confirms performance that is no better than a placebo and the case is closed.

The problem with your point of view is that there is no way to eliminate false ideas. Anything can work by claiming it is merely beyond our understanding. Sorry, but that is theology, not evidence. I submit that if the answer is beyond our understanding, then the proponents of that idea have no basis for supporting it. To put it another way, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

51. I have never tried bleeding with leeches or putting horseshit on a sore to cure it

Guess I am one of those scared closed minded people, or maybe I'm just a BigPharma shill?

Naturopathy I see working, but homeopathy? No.

I find all your insults juvenile at best.

[Tumbulu]

54. Have I posted something insulting?

Your suggesting that bleeding with leeches and putting manure on open wounds is rather odd in this discussion of homeopathy and it suggests that you are frightened of it. If you believe that it is only tiny sugar pills, what is so frightening to you? Really, why does this subject get such a hysterical reaction on this message board.

[HuckleB]

55. Yes, you have.

When you bring in illogical BS, claiming that the reason people don't want to use homeopathy is because they are afraid or closed-minded, people tend to take such statements as insults.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

[BuddhaGirl]

58. no, you didn't

in fact it was pretty mild compared to stuff that is thrown at people who are proponents of homeopathy and other forms of alternative medicine.

[uppityperson]

61. So it is ok to insult someone because someone else somewhere else insulted someone too?

:eyes:

[HuckleB]

62. +1

[BuddhaGirl]

65. of course not

but the insults do fly around here pretty thickly toward those who are in favor of alt medicine. That you cannot deny - it gets pretty rude.

[uppityperson]

60. "Smacks of a closed mind, or perhaps perfectly funded health insurance."

Yes, you have. Claiming that those who don't believe in homeopathy are closed mined, pharma shills, hysterical or frightened is insulting.

Remember that leeches and manure were acceptable practices in the past.

Perhaps those of us who are health care workers get tired of having to fix people who did not come in for appropriate treatment but instead put their faith in "tiny sugar pills".

The only hysteria I see here is yours. I wonder why.

[astral]

53. These arguments here are off-base.

Homeopathy is exactly what it is- it is not crystals, faith-healing, vitamins or herbs. It is not mean to be the one-and-only approach to anything that is wrong with you. It is legal to practice it and has been around for years so if people want to scoff at it from a distance with no investigation into the matter that is fine too.

I believe it works for some people, but I believe a holistic approach to health is needed. I believe (with nothing to back it up whatsoever) that people drink alot of beer, eat alot of hamburgers / fries / shakes / cokes are not going to benefit much by turning directly to homeopathy once something ails them, but people practice living mindfully can benefit.

Why? Because it about vibrations, and people who do not bother with anything day by day are going to have a lower vibration and also be much more likely to become sick, and I don't think their vibrations can be RAISED enough by homepathy to have an effect on them as a single approach to their problem.

I do not know from first hand experience. I tried taking those mineral salt things when I was younger but I wasn't sick and could notice nothing one way or the other, but you know I try to keep an open mind because what we are learning in the present is the world around us is much more complicated than we can yet comprehend.

We are still in the dark ages medicine-wise, for sure. At least "modern medicine." Various cultures on the planet are in differing stages of advancement in medicine, and we could all learn from one another about other approaches and find out what does and does not work.

[Orrex]

57. The people here who object most strenuously to homeopathy understand it quite well

They equally understand that appeals to "vibrations" or "energy" or "quantum memory" are nothing but smokescreens put forth to hide the fact that the foundation of homeopathy is simply magic based on wishful thinking, without even a single shred of evidence to support it. Not one, not ever.

Additionally, exhortations to "keep an open mind" are a red herring. Maintaining an open mind doesn't mean accepting as fact a claim with no basis in reality; it means keeping receptive to new claims while still examining those claims to see if they're true or not.

[SidDithers]

64. +1...

well said.

Sid

[The Genealogist]

66. Where is the scientific evidence for the "vibrations" you speak of?

And what does homeopathy being legal to practice and being around for years have to do with its efficacy? It is legal to think that the earth is flat, and the notion has been around for years, does that make the earth flat?

[onager]

71. OK, since everybody else is using Argumentum ad Anecdote...

I believe (with nothing to back it up whatsoever) that people drink alot of beer, eat alot of hamburgers / fries / shakes / cokes are not going to benefit much by turning directly to homeopathy once something ails them, but people practice living mindfully can benefit.

Food elitist, eh? FYI, I "eat a lot of hamburgers/fries." One of my favorite meals. Always has been. I also smoke cigs and drink alchohol.

Yet during physical exams, doctors always comment on my low blood pressure and general good health. I often get asked if I work out a lot.

No, I do not. And I'd eat a dog turd before I'd take homeopathic medicine.

Why? Because it about vibrations, and people who do not bother with anything day by day are going to have a lower vibration and also be much more likely to become sick, and I don't think their vibrations can be RAISED enough by homepathy to have an effect on them as a single approach to their problem.

VIBRATIONS? You can't be serious. Unless you're talking about one of those "vibrating personal massagers," which I've heard can be beneficial to your health.

Oh wait, you are serious. Well, WTF does "do not bother with anything" mean? Are you talking about couch potatos like me? While I'm gulping down those burgers and fries, I'm generally parked on my couch, laughing at woo-woo shows on the History/Science channel.

In my case, I'm pretty sure it's about heredity, not vibrations. My 79-year-old mother daily puts away enough meat, fat, salt and cream to fill a Whole Foods Market. And she's in very good health. She'd better be - she works at a daycare center, wrangling rug-rats who are 3/4/5 years old.

Last anecdote: some of the unhappiest and puniest people I've met are health/food nuts. And I live in Los Angeles, so that type is plentiful around here.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

76. You'd eat a dog turd?

Dude, you SO have to video that and post it to YouTube.

Reminds me of a funny movie scene (only 21 seconds long): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LAnmnS0-9g

[HuckleB]

56. Homeopathic A&E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

I don't know how this hasn't been posted yet.

[eShirl]

59. I bought what I thought was a natural remedy that turned out to be a homeopathic remedy instead

My sister had recommended arnica cream for something, and after using it for a day with no noticeable effects I read the label to see what was actually in it.

Right there in the fine print: "homeopathic."

And then straight into the garbage.

[LeftishBrit]

74. Me too actually - so I should have chosen the second option rather than the first

I used arnica for a bruise, just because it was around, and I thought it was an old-fashioned over-the-counter herbal-type remedy that might or might not work to some extent. As might be predicted from its homeopathic nature, it did neither good nor harm.

[HuckleB]

63. The Power Of The Mind's Ability To Buy Into Suggestion Has Long Been Noted...

HAMLET: Do you see yonder cloud that’s almost in shape of a camel?
LORD POLONIUS: By the mass, and ’tis like a camel, indeed.
HAMLET: Methinks it is like a weasel.
LORD POLONIUS: It is backed like a weasel.
HAMLET: Or like a whale?
LORD POLONIUS: Very like a whale.

[LeftyMom]

77. Other: I do not believe homeopathy works because I am not stupid.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

78. You said it, not me

:)

Sometimes I like blunt the best.

[LeftyMom]

79. Blunt is one of my best things.

:D

There is neither evidence homeopathy works nor any credible explanation of how it might work. Any offered explanations are pseudo-scientific at best.

[BuddhaGirl]

80. I use it regularly and recommend it often to others

it works for me and that's all that matters. :-)

[ZombieHorde]

84. Specifically when do you use homeopathy and what exactly do you do?

I am skeptical, but I admit I know nothing about it.

[HuckleB]

81. Closing the Door on Homeopathy

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2558

The scam must end.

[Posteritatis]

82. Nothing but lies, quackery and idiocy, with its advocates being either dupes or frauds. (nt)

[Odin2005]

87. Quackery and BS.