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No Matter What, We Pay for Others’ Bad Habits

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groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:09 AM
Original message
No Matter What, We Pay for Others’ Bad Habits
“I’m tired of paying for everyone else’s stupidity,” is a comment I read on the Internet last week after the health care bill was passed. It summed up the views of many Americans worried about shelling out higher premiums and taxes to cover the uninsured. Why should we pick up the tab when so much disease in our country stems from unhealthy behavior like smoking and overeating?

In fact, the majority of Americans say it is fair to ask people with unhealthy lifestyles to pay more for health insurance. We believe in the concept of personal responsibility. You hear it in doctors’ lounges and in coffee shops, among the white collar and blue collar alike. Even President Obama has said, “We’ve got to have the American people doing something about their own care.”

But personal responsibility is a complex notion, especially when it comes to health. Individual choices always take place within a broader, messy context. When people advocate the need for personal accountability, they presuppose more control over health and sickness than really exists.

Unhealthy habits are one factor in disease, but so are social status, income, family dynamics, education and genetics. Patient noncompliance with medical recommendations undoubtedly contributes to poor health, but it is as much a function of poor communication, medication costs and side effects, cultural barriers and inadequate resources as it is of willful disregard of a doctor’s advice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/health/30risk.html?th&emc=th
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Definitely food for thought. I did see an awful lot of huge bellies in those teahadist crowds.
Edited on Tue Mar-30-10 11:11 AM by BrklynLiberal
Why should we pick up the tab when so much disease in our country stems from unhealthy behavior like smoking and overeating?
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groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm certainly not opposed to so called "sin" tax. When the price of cigarettes goes up whether
through tax or not, the number of people smoking drops.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I am with you 100%. I support that tax on sodas that is being proposed here in NYC
If anything, I think it does not go far enough, since it only applies to those with sugar..actually HFCS. I believe that even diet sodas should be taxed, since they do as much harm in their own way as the sugared drinks do.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. COMPLETELY against taxes on sin products
prove to me that every penny collected goes to obesity awareness and treatment. If it's not then why collect it?
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. unfortunately "picking up the tab" means agreeing
that insurance companies have a right to profit by managing your private activities. It doesn't stop with smoking and overeating. Break your leg skiing? You were engaged in a dangerous activity. Got a cavity and didn't get a checkup this year? You were ignoring preventative health care.

If I were a health insurance company I'd want to see which of my people did not have a gym membership or evidence of regular exercise. I'd want to see who had regular traffic violations, or even unacceptable BMI's. Certainly anyone who swims in a public pool or lake, or gets on non-standard vehicles, has and uses firearms, lives in a home further than .16 miles from the nearest MICU, etc. would be people I'd refuse to pay casualty on or else charge a premium premium for.

Yeah - tea baggers are all about themselves, forgetting that when their wife gets knocked up and has a brat or their brat needs braces all those expenses are spread out among their co-workers.

The idea of a public option is that it's non-profit, and that it's non risk-group based.
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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
6. as a smoker, I'm tired of picking up the tab for
people that have no bad habits and live to a ripe old age where they enjoy dementia and long, long medicaid funded stays in nursing homes. :sarcasm:

Here's a study that says smokers and the obese cost less.
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/15293006.html

I'm tired of paying for someone else is such a b.s. right wing argument.


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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. What I always find deficient in the argument about 'not paying for others'
bad habits' is the fact that every one of us has grown up in a culture that, for its own profit, has done nothing BUT encourage those very same bad habits. I'd like to expound upon a prime example.

In the 60's and early 70's when I was in high school, we did not have soft drink machines, Taco Bells, candy machines, etc., on school property because the prevailing societal mores said that it was not good to encourage kids, especially kids in a custodial environment like a school, to indulge in harmful foods--especially since that would suggest that such foods had the 'blessing' of the administration. I realize this will seem really quaint to younger DUers, but attention was paid to the ramifications of any action.

In ensuing years, we saw the fight begin for the money of the school kids, and the companies wanting money started calling the shots. I remember many parents protesting at school board meetings about not wanting junk sold to their kids on school grounds, but they were ultimately overruled, most likely by kickbacks that either enriched the school district or the pockets of school board members. The attempt by parents to keep their kids out of the gunsights of the junk food companies failed, but not for their lack of trying.

Fast forward to today, and you get the astounding RW argument that taking junk food out of the schools 'destroys free choice'! Everyone, including children, should have free choice to eat junk food anytime, anywhere! This of course is the mantra applied to everything. My argument is that even if every junk food was taken off the market tomorrow, each of us would be perfectly able to consume whatever junk food we wanted (cookies, burritos, etc.) but that we would have to cook it first. Then we get to the REAL argument--people actually believe that corporations should be able to sell whatever crappy stuff they want with whatever propaganda/social engineering they want to use in its pursuit of more money.

And so now it is all up to us to refuse to eat/use/act/do anything that might harm us, even though the majority of the airwaves, radiowaves, magazine ads, etc., push us inexorably toward the things that are bad for us. I submit that this is not the normal way a culture works; generally, a culture that is not self-destructive will attempt to put its main focus on emphasizing actions that are mainly good for the culture and the individual. Am I the only one whose mother didn't give us snacks because it would "ruin our appetite" for dinner? That was the culture back then--you didn't eat all day. Now, because people have been gulled into snacking all day they are, not surprisingly, becoming greatly overweight. Who benefited from the surge of articles about how snacking was good for you because it upped your metabolism? Only the snack food companies. It was the only way they could sell more of their fast food.

Do you see what's happening? In the very near past, CULTURE drove the MARKET--now the MARKET drives the CULTURE. Our 'culture' now consists almost entirely of the actions/attitudes needed to move the most product the fastest, no matter whether that product is junk food, American Idol, or weight loss pills.

So, in conclusion, blaming people who believe and participate in the debased 'culture' they have grown up in is simply blaming the victim. The fact that a few thousand, or a few million, people can see through this farce of a culture doesn't mean that everyone will, or that you should expect everyone should.






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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I mostly agree with you
Similarly, one can look to the size of restaurant proportions.

Where I do disagree with you, it's in terminology. I don't think one should classify any food as "harmful". That, in and of itself, can lead to disordered eating habits. Now, I'm not saying that soda machines in schools is a good idea. I don't think it is. However, there's nothing wrong with a brownie or a couple of cookies being a part of a perfectly healthy lunch -- or a burrito or anything. No individual food is harmful, rather it's quantity and dietetic diversity (or the lack thereof) that are the problems. A soda or two a week isn't going to lead to obesity. A soda or two a day might.

When I was in school in the 1970s and 1980s, we all complained about the school lunches but they were, for the most part, pretty nutritionally balanced and not overly caloric. Even when the school added ala carte items like pizza slices or ice cream sandwiches, they were priced accordingly (or counted as part of the free/reduced lunch price) in such a way that kids got more food, and more calories, for choosing healthier alternatives. You could have an ice cream sandwich and a slice of pizza or you could get a full lunch (lasagna, green beans, apple brown betty for example) plus milk for the same price. If you're a hungry tween or teen, what are you going to choose? Sure, sometimes you'll choose the pizza and ice cream sandwich, but you quickly learn that the other stuff fills you up more.

Soda, candy and snack machines (some schools have full fledged convenience stores in them), McDonalds and Taco Bell in place of a cafeteria staff, etc. though are just stupid. They might save or even make the school some money, but at what price to the kids?
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Very true about the terminology--I actually agree with you, and in my
own eating pattern I don't classify many foods as "bad." I will, for example, have a (homemade) burrito and a salad for lunch and not think anything of it. I may even add a cookie on the weekends. But this country's food problems go much deeper than we are willing to acknowledge--from the new findings about high fructose corn syrup, to the triple whammy of the fat/sugar/salt taste explosion used in highly prepared foods to addict the buyer to that taste sensation. These really aren't foods, per se -- they are chemical concoctions that are suspected of acting very differently in our bodies and on our taste buds or minds than traditional foods. And these are the concoctions that are being marketed 24 hours a day.
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bluethruandthru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. I hate this argument!
EVERYONE does something that could be considered "unhealthy'. We can't punish people either through higher insurance premiums or in any other fashion because they do something that someone deems wrong/unhealthy/risky.
Why stop with eating too much or smoking?
How about driving too fast...not getting enough sleep....heating food in plastic containers....not flossing....walking alone at night....running with scissors??? All can be considered unhealthy or risky behaviors.

The above article says the majority of Americans think it's fair to ask people with "unhealthy lifestyles" to pay more for health insurance. I wonder who gets to decide what an unhealthy lifestyle is?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. "Divide and Rule." nt
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