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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 01:44 PM
Original message
Astronomer announces shortlist of stellar candidates for habitable worlds
Edited on Sun Feb-19-06 01:53 PM by Swede
Margaret Turnbull, an astronomer at the Carnegie Institution of Washington, has devoted herself to the painstaking search for candidate stars that may harbor zones of habitability where life--primitive or otherwise-- might thrive. Turnbull announced her shortlist of so-called "habstars" at the 2006 Annual Meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in St. Louis.

Out of an initial catalogue of 17,129 "habitable stellar systems" that Turnbull and her colleagues published in 2003, she selected a handful of stars that she considers her best bets, based on a variety of screening criteria.


http://www.astrobiology.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=19058
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is There A Link
or not?
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oops.
nt
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Blutodog Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Stars
I have a somewhat radical notion regarding "life" especially "intelligent life" off the earth and why we aren't having any luck finding it. I'll focus here on the "intelligent type first." Did any of you see a movie called the "Truman Show" with Jim Carrie made in the late 90's? My idea is a variation on that show. I think were sitting within what I call a quarantine zone and I believe that somehow all the signals and the light that would show us the intelligence around us are being somehow filtered . I like to use two analogies in networks Proxy servers and Firewalls as examples. Both these devices are used to essentially block or limit data from either leaving a network or entering it. What if we are being "filtered?" The reason why I think this is a possibility is this. Look at the mathamatical odds that in a Universe that is near 20 billion yrs. old and almost limitless that we haven't heard or seen a peep from anyone else? Sometimes the most obvious and simplest conclusions is one of 2 possibilites. The first is the one our hosts who are doing the filtering want us to conclude. Which we are the only life in the Universe or atleast the only "intelligent life,or the second that given the total absence of any signals or data the opposite is true!! It's the total absence in a HUGE Universe that is the tip off. What are the odds of this being true even remotely? Near Zero as I see it. So where are the aliens and their societies? Possibly blocked from our view? It's a possibility I'm not sure how I could prove it but my guess is like all filters or firewalls, proxies it's not a perfect system and on occasion something will sneak through? The other possibility is all the UFO sightings are our keepers and other curious visitors coming to peek at the Zoo here. They are probably told to follow the rules for observation and like all visitors some just can't resist feeding or messing with the animals. I know it sounds like a story line from the Twilight Zone or Outer Limits or even Star Trek but who knows stranger things have been found to be true.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Well, it's interesting, isn't it, how we have the ability to IMAGINE a
civilization with higher intelligence--civilizations that we have generally imagined to be more ethically advanced than we are--but those of us who imagine such things are having trouble convincing our fellow earthlings to behave in a more ethically advanced way. I had thought, prior to the onset of the Bush junta, that human civilization WAS advancing to those imagined heights, beyond war, beyond torturing people, toward equality and more generosity and benevolence. I certainly never thought torture would become a policy of our government! I also thought that "first strike" war--and wars of big countries like the US against little countries like Iraq or Vietnam--would never occur again, especially at our instigation. I thought the worst we had to deal with, as to war, was the war profiteers creating such horrors as depleted uranium weapons, but that, in any case, the devastation of war would be small scale, and on our part, undertaken only with a UN mandate. I knew there were serious problems--with corporate globalisation, for instance, and with our planetary environment--but I thought we might solve them--and were solving them--through public activism, electoral politics and democratic institutions (national and international).

And it may be that Earth's people are, as a whole, advancing-- but we in the U.S. are not with them any more. We are regressing--in some respects, backwards thousands of years, to torture, to serfdom, to the "peons" as cannon fodder for the rich, to kings and emperors, to state imposed religion. It is horrible beyond belief to see my country dragged backwards like this. But I do know that the great majority of Americans oppose the Bush junta, still believe in democracy, peace and justice, and are progressive and anti-Bush in their views. The opinion, issue and approval polls over the last several years establish this overwhelmingly. It is a MINORITY that is pushing these awful ancient hatreds and dreadful policies--a minority that has seized control, after many decades of planning, and several decades of incremental dismemberment of our democracy (the development of war profiteering corporate news monopolies, for instance, the Reagan tax re-write to favor the rich, and the undemocratic passage of trade agreements that are bad for everyone except the very rich).

But we tend to have a very myopic view of things here in the United States. The Bush junta is actually quite isolated, internationally--and the rest of the world is well aware that it does not act with the consent of the American people, and in the interest of the majority. Further, the rest of the world is moving on, in rather amazing ways. There is a profound leftist revolution occurring in Latin America, with leftist governments getting elected by big majorities in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Venezuela and recently Bolivia. Virtually the entire map of the sub-continent has turned "blue"--and it looks like Mexico, too, is going to elect the leftist mayor of Mexico City as president.

These countries are fed up with U.S. global corporations and especially with the Bush junta. In Bolivia, Evo Morales--the first indigenous elected as president--was involved in the big fight there to throw Bechtel out of Bolivia, for privatizing the WATER and jacking up the price to the poor. (The Bolivians succeeded!). Lulu in Brazil was the leader of a major revolt of the third world countries at the World Trade Organization meeting in Cancun not too longer--a remarkable coalition that included India, and, I believe, South Korea. And most of us are now familiar with some of the things that Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has said and done. They are not particularly angry at Americans (though our news monopolies try to portray Chavez that way). They are just fed up. They've had it. And, having experienced US-installed dictatorships, they are aware that THAT is what's going on HERE. Our country has been hijacked.

The key to the Latin American revolution has been TRANSPARENT ELECTIONS--something that is a thing of the past in the U.S., with rightwing Bushite corporations now counting all our votes, in these new electronic voting systems, using "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls. That kind of crap has been overcome in Latin America--due to the hard work of local civic groups, the OAS, EU election monitoring groups and the Carter Center. But it's now our turn to feel the boot of illegitimate government. TRANSPARENT elections = good, leftist government. Because only leftists represent most people--the poor, workers, small business, small ag, the young, the old, women, the black and the brown, the great bulk of every population.

So, perhaps, in the rest of the world, the human race will be redeemed--and the Cosmic boycott of humans that you posit will end.

I've often wondered about those mysterious failures of the Mars missions--and, of course, Challenger--most of it under Bush. It may not be just this junta's deliberate, vicious neglect of any good government program like NASA (and FEMA!)--their seeming incompetence, which masks their intention to dismantle our government. It may be that the U.S. was PREVENTED from exploring Mars, if your theory is correct, because Bush is the worst of us, and has seized control. They don't want Bush and his henchmen, and his thieves, and his mass murderers in outer space.

Can't blame them.

If there is some Cosmic plan at work, what I hope is that we are being tested: Do we really believe in peace and justice, and equality, and democratic government, and all those ideals of our Founders, and of the fighters for justice in our history, or are we lazy, greedy, selfish "consumers" and "sheeple" who don't deserve to see the stars and join galactic civilization? Will we cast off Bushism and become a better people? Will this "test" rid of our "Manifest Destiny" flaws, and get us to see ourselves more clearly, the way others see us, and lead us to atone from some of our worser acts?

I'm thinking of Michelle Batchelet, now president of Chile, who lost her family to Pinochet, and was herself tortured. Our government supported that dreadful regime, and ASSASSINATED the democratically elected president of Chile, Salvador Allende, which led to the Pinochet coup. WE are responsible for that, collectively. WE have benefited, financially, from such actions (to a point, anyway--we're not benefiting any more--the corporations and the rich are now exploiting and oppressing US). SOME people in our country have become psychotic with guilt for dreadful actions like that. Bush supporters--real maniacs. Can we heal them? Can we atone?

The same with Iran--we destroyed their democratically elected government in 1953, and imposed the horrible, torture-loving Shah on them for 25 years. We owe them an apology and recompense--not more bullying and death.

I don't really agree with your premise, though, scientifically--that we should have had contact by now, if there were any other civilizations out there. We are--our entire Earth is--just a tiny little speck of dust in the middle of nowhere, and the Galaxy (just this galaxy--not to mention to the bigger universe) is immense beyond belief. We can't really comprehend its hugeness. And, given the numbers, it wouldn't surprise me at all if we were "missed" in a survey of our galactic region--if there was such an undertaking. It also wouldn't surprise me to find out that no one else had yet developed the means or the interest to find us, or to pick up our signals. Perhaps communications just pass us by, because we don't have sophisticated enough instruments to pick them up. I think it may be a mistake of our egocentrism to think that we would easily be found.
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Blutodog Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Bu$hites
I agree with almost everything you said about the criminal Bu$h regime. It's pretty obvious now that this regime has no intention of ever giving up power peacefully and that it looks like America has now been reduced to the status of a 3rd world banana republican dictatorship complete with it's own scary dictator GWBu$h the 2nd. How do we get out of this dilemma now that they've essentially rigged the voting system through so called "privatization and rethugliken Corps voting machines?)
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I think intellegent life is just thinly spread.
I'm a supporter of the "Rare Earth" hypothesis, which states that life is common, but complex multicellular life and sentience is quite rare. The chance of finding intellegent life when there are only say, 10 or 20 civilizations in the galaxy, is extremely tiny.
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modrepub Donating Member (484 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I've alway thought there is a flaw in the calculation
One of the assumptions made when trying to calculate the odds of generating an intelligent civilization is that they assume that we are the pinnacle of evolution. I'd counter if you know anything about evolution you know it is a random process. If it is a random process then intelligent life capable of long-range communication could occur any time since the big bang. The average time an individual species exists on Earth is roughly 100,000 years, a hair's width in time. What are the chances of intelligent life in the universe capable of long-range communications happening at the same time if it is randomly distributed over the time period since the big bang?

I tend to think we are all alone in the universe, that is as far as life capable of long-range communications. Not sure if contacting other beings would be good, we can barely get along with each other.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. sure it is random
but I would guess that there IS a minimum time frame required to:

a. get the heavy elements required for life (which means second generation stars mostly and billions of years minimum)
b. give evolution time to go from baacteria, etc and get to intelligent life (also likely billions of years)

THAT hypothesis would lead me to believe that we may not be all that far off from the apex technologically speaking.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. We may have had up to a billion year setback on Earth...
...compared to a 'mean' of other life (assuming all other things equal).

If the latest theory of the Moon's formation I've read is true, we are living on 'Earth II' -- 'Earth I' having been almost destroyed when a planetoid struck it and ended up forming our Moon about a billion years after the initial oceans cooled and formed.

So if there had been primitive life on Earth at that point, it would have had to start over from scratch. We've had some whopper extinction events since then too that could have slowed us down almost another billion years all together. Or perhaps they were necessary to get where we are? The dominant life on Earth would almost certainly have been much different if some of these things happened, but would fewer 'dieoffs' slow evolution over the long run, or speed it up? Hard to say.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. The fact that we haven't found evidence
of extra terrestrial intelligent life may be an indicator that it's technically very hard to produce radio signals strong enough to be detectable over distances of 10's or 100's of light years. Same thing for practical inter-stellar travel.
And that's just limiting to our galaxy. Detection of life in other galaxies. let alone inter-galactic travel is many orders of magnitude more difficult.

Another factor may be the life span of civilizations; humans have been in principal capable of detecting intelligent ET life for only a 100 years or so. Multiple ET civilizations may have existed relatively near our solar system before we were able to detect them, any more may come into existence long after earth stopped being habitable.

Indeed the universe is vast and it's very probably that it is teeming with intelligent life, but it's exactly because it is vast both in terms of distance and in terms of time, that the population density probably is not very high.
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Blutodog Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Who really knows?
Nobody really knows? Maybe the Universe is just now becoming filled with Intelligence and as u said because of the distances involved they just can't see or hear each other. When we look out all were seeing really is the past were not seeing things in "real time." In real time it could look like NY Grand Central for all we know? Nevertheless, if it does nobody is that close or we'd have seen or heard something. Unless, they don't want us to see or hear them. That's my pt. a Galaxtic society might exist but it might also have certain rules about membership and maybe we are a long way off from even being considered?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Nobody knows,
but some possibilities are more plausible then others.

A extremely advanced galactic society that's keeping itself hidden from us (by somehow "filtering" signals) is a rather elaborate and complicated explanation as to why we haven't made contact.

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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. I've hidden a sand-grain's worth of gold on a beach.
Not just any sand grain, but one specific one, which can only be positively identified when you get really close, like with an electron microscope.

Find it, and I'll give you a million dollars. You can use as many people as you know to look for it. Put a few dozen friends in Guadalajara, a few score more in Acapulco; a few hundred or so in California, a few more hundred surrounding the British Isles, several thousand along the California/Oregon/Washington coast line. Hell, use all five billion people on planet Earth...

...to pick through every single grain of sand on every beach on every continent, looking for one special grain of sand. You've just picked through one galaxy. Now repeat a few billion more times.

Beginning to get the picture?

Don't bother betting; even a Vegas bookie wouldn't take this one. We haven't seen them and they haven't seen us BECAUSE of the odds. Good idea for a sci-fi novel, though, especially one with a romantic twist...

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not long ago, they were saying the chances for life developing elsewhere
were rather slim, because they thought conditions in our solar system that fostered life and that created the planets were probably rare, they didn't think planets would be plentiful in the universe, and they hadn't observed any others. I never believed these prognosis because the numbers of stars and galaxies are so-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o mindbogglingly, googleplexingly hu-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-mongous! I figured they were just being killjoys and pissants, or were still stuck in the old mode of egocentric humans who think EVERYTHING centers around US.

Now, with new telescopes and techniques, they're finding LOTS OF PLANETS (upwards of 200 so far). True, most are gas giants (like Neptune or Jupiter), but that's because the telescopes and techniques aren't refined enough yet to catch the smaller, more earth-like planets. Where there is a Neptune or Jupiter, there could well be another Earth. To develop life (as we know it), the planet has to be circling the right sized sun within a certain zone of life (not too cold, not too hot), and one of those was JUST ANNOUNCED (1/26/06), found last summer (2005)-- the most earth-like so far, named OGLE-2005-BLG-390Lb, using an unusual "gravitational microlensing" technique. OGLE-2005-BLG-390Lb is 20,000 light years from us:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/01/25/space.planet.reut/

The "gravitational microlensing" technique was used just prior to this earthlike find, in spring 2005, to find yet another gas giant --15,000 to 20,000 light years from earth, OGLE-2005-BLG-071--with the help of New Zealand amateur astronomers:

http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=3151

Here's the first image of a planet outside our solar system, taken in April 2004. The planet has cool temperatures and water vapor. Planet #2M1207b:

http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=3105

And here's another fun article about earth's "red edge" (from the vegetation) which astronomers are trying to see as if we were looking back at us (so they can detect that sign of life elsewhere).

http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=3115

:eyes:
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. They should check Epsilon Eridani first -- it's where the Vulcans are!
I'm sort of surprised they listed Alpha Centauri B as probably having habitable planets. I know they say that it's 'long been suspected' of having habitable planets, but I think that's mostly wishful thinking, because it's the closest star system.

What's particularly unusual about the system, other than having 3 stars, is that Proxima Centauri is on something like a million year long orbit of the other two. That would create some weird million year cycles if there are planets there. It's hard to believe that they wouldn't have been destabilized by the trinary system's complex gravity.

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Terrestrial planets in the Alpha Centauri system...
...are probably not good canidates for complex life. Star A and Star B are too close together for there to be a Jupiter to shield any terrestrial planets from too many impacts with comets and asteroids.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hello, Mr. Rutan, We Need You to Build Us a Spaceship


We'll need an extra large fuel tank :-)
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