Need some help with an ancient mystery...(historians, archaeologists)

[Dover]

I was shown an etching that was done in the early 18th Century which was probably from a book on historic sites of significance, or something like that. The etching was of a remote grassy hillside with standing stones (akin to Stonehenge in appearance, but not standing in a circle from what I could tell). It looks as though some of the monumental stones were stacked on top of others and looked almost like pillows that had been stood on end, due to their smooth rounded folds and surfaces. There is a scroll above this scene which says the following:

Moles Saxea peope Helmstadiaan (as best I could read it). All the fellow who showed it to me knew was that it was a prehistoric site of Helmstad.

I've done searches on the internet and can't find anything at all. There is a Halmstad in Sweden which might be one and the same, just another spelling. But couldn't find anything about a monumental stone site there. Does this ring any bells for anyone?

And something really strange about one of the biggest stones. It had an arched door in it that appeared as though it would lead into the stone but was not an opening such as would go all the way through to the other side (as though there were an inner chamber and the massive stone were somehow hollow). Was this artistic license or accurate rendering? Very odd.

[momophile]

1. have you tried here?

http://www.stonepages.com/

[Dover]

2. What a great site! No I hadn't seen it. Looks like a good place to

start, even if it may be limited to those six countries.

Thanks!

[momophile]

4. I hope it helps

I'm having great fun looking at all the pix!
:hi:

[momophile]

5. by your description, sounds like a dolmen?

[Dover]

11. Yes, that's a thought worth pursuing. I found this when I searched

under "dolmen, sweden".
http://web.telia.com/~u51503769/ancient.html

It seems that unlike stonehenge, these organic smooth stones that looked something like the top of a soft ice cream cone, were placed on top of some bigger stones that were flattened on top.

And then there were some stones that were taller, narrower and wider, unflattened and unshaped by man. And it was one of those that had the very clear cutout of an arched door that seemed to be human scale. The whole thing was unusual.

[Dover]

17. Here's the etching.

I just posted this below, but wanted to be sure you saw it:

[momophile]

3. also try their links to other European sites

http://www.stonepages.com/megalinks/01_megalithic_sites/

[Ediacara]

6. Is the third word peope or prope?

If it's prope, the phrase is Latin for "massive Saxon(?) building nearby to Helmstad"

[Dover]

8. It was a little fuzzy (my eyesight!) but I remember wondering whether

that word was prope, so you may be onto something. Unfortunately I can't read some of the stuff from Europe that are in other languages on that stones website, so that too remains "fuzzy". But I'll bet if this is actually in Sweden or that area, that the archaeologists in that area are familiar with it.

[madrchsod]

7. i found this

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15590/15590-h/15590-h.htm&h=352&w=600&sz=8&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=XIQkMNKM4URIfM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dstone%2Bmonuments%2Bin%2Bsweden%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

use plain text--none-- download-it`s really fast. there is a whole chapter on norse stone monuments that could fit the description.

i also found this which maybe closer to the etching you saw because the site was torn down in the early 1800`s

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/monuments.html#scott

google has an image to a circle drawing but i can`t download

[Dover]

9. Thanks. I'll see what I can find out and get back to you if there seems to be

a connection.

[Ediacara]

10. Is this it?

These are Ale's Stones from Southern Sweden which is (somewhat) close to Halmstad)

[Dover]

12. Wow! That's beautiful. But I don't think it's the same.

However you do seem to be on the right track.

The one you found has a much more defined circular pattern, while the one I saw was much less organized and haphazard. At least from the artist's angle. And the stones in the etching seemed bigger than these (judging by the cut out of the door in that one rock which I assume is human scale).

And as I just described above regarding the dolmen comment, some stones looked, in shape, like the one in the foreground of your picture, but others were large wide and flat on top with another large smoother stone (shaped similar to the top of a soft ice cream cone) placed on top of it. They all roughly seem to form a square, or are huddled together rather than spread far apart.

I'm going to see if I can get a copy of it to post here.

[Dover]

16. HERE'S A COPY OF THE ETCHING!

Well this took a little doing, but here's a copy of the print I'm talking about:

[Ediacara]

19. The banner reads 'Moles Saxeœ prope Helmstadium'

Moles = Large building
Saxeœ = stone, or possibly Saxon
prope = near
Helmstadium = Helmstedt, Germany

How about this? The Lübbensteine Nordgrab megalith tomb structure:

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=10674



http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbbensteine

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=52.230830N10.986890E&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=52.23052,10.98724&spn=0.00159,0.005407&t=h&om=1

[Dover]

20. Don't know if Helmstad and Helmstedt are one and the same, but that

sure looks similar to the etching, doesn't it? You're good at this stuff!


The stones have similar characteristics and arrangements. Might be impossible to do this via the pictures alone unless a photo is taken from the same angle as the etching's perspective. I'm going on the assumption that this site is still there and relatively unchanged......and well enough known by European archaeologists, historians, and locals to be identified. So just need to find someone familiar with this site.

[Ediacara]

21. I googled "Helmstadium" and I found a Latin place name dictionary

that gave me Helmstedt, Germany. I wish there were photos from the perspective of that etching though, about 40 feet off the ground looking sort of downward.

[momophile]

22. isn't there a Saxony, Germany?

does it refer to this, I wonder?

[Ediacara]

23. It's in the state of Lower Saxony

So I suppose it could be referencing that.

[momophile]

13. I noticed that some of the Russian arch sites seem to

have inner rooms. Worth checking too if you aren't coming up with anything else.

Good luck!

[Dover]

14. Fascinating stuff. Thanks for all your help! You've given me some

good resources and ideas to help move this research along.

Have a great holiday too!

[enlightenment]

15. If those sites don't work, try this one --

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/search.php?query=&country=14

Good luck -- and let us know what you discover!

[Dover]

18. Thanks! See a picture of the etching in above post ^...n/t

[Dover]

24. WOW! Finally have some answers!

Many thanks to Momophile for the 'stonespages' website. I emailed them and asked if they were familiar with the site depicted in the etching and not only did they know about it, but they were also familiar with the etching itself. Guess what DinoBoy? You were right! Thank you all for such wonderful assistance with this. It was a really nice gift to have this answered. ((hugs))
Can anyone read German?
http://www.geopark-braunschweiger-land.de/erlebnistour/geopunkt5_i.htm
http://www.cornelissen.de/name/cor_ver6.htm

Here's what the email said:

The etching you are referring to was made in 1720 and depicts an ancient site called "Luebbensteine". It refers to a couple of monuments located near the town of Helmstedt.
Below are the GPS data:


Nordgrab
52° 13' 50.99" N, 10° 59' 12.80" E
http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&q=52.23083,10.98689

Suedgrab
52° 13' 46.60" N, 10° 59' 12.70" E
http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&q=52.22961,10.98686


You can find in-depth information (in German) here:
http://www.geopark-braunschweiger-land.de/erlebnistour/geopunkt5_i.htm


And more info and photos here:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lübbensteine

http://www.biologie.de/biowiki/Bild:Luebbensteine_Suedgrab.jpg

http://www.pernau-online.de/?p=12


Hope this helps!
Ciao from Italy

[Lithos]

25. Cool

So very cool to have the full story.

:thumbsup:

[Dover]

26. Team work! There IS still the mystery of the door carved into that one stone.

I asked this same person about that 'door' and he said he hadn't run across any explanation of it yet. He said this stone monument had been robbed and had stones removed throughout it's history, so that particular stone with the 'door' may have been lost (if indeed it was actually there to begin with). He said that sadly many of the big stones have been hauled off for used in various modern housing and wall constructions.

He also provided one more link (in German of course!).

http://www.region-braunschweig.de/archaeo/ao-helmstedt-01.html