The Non-Programming Programmer

[bananas]

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2010/02/the-nonprogramming-programmer.html

Feb 22, 2010
The Non-Programming Programmer

I find it difficult to believe, but the reports keep pouring in via Twitter and email: many candidates who show up for programming job interviews can't program. At all. Consider this recent email from Mike Lin:

The article Why Can't Programmers... Program? changed the way I did interviews. I used to lead off by building rapport. That proved to be too time-consuming when, as you mentioned, the vast majority of candidates were simply non-technical. So I started leading off with technical questions. First progressing from easy to hard questions. Then I noticed I identified the rejects faster if I went the other way – hard questions first – so long as the hard questions were still in the "if you don't know this then you can't work here" category. Most of my interviews still took about twenty minutes, because tough questions take some time to answer and evaluate. But it was a big improvement over the rapport-building method; and it could be done over the phone.

After reading your article, I started doing code interviews over the phone, using web meetings. My interview times were down to about 15 minutes each to identify people who just can't code— the vast majority.

<snip>

[Skittles]

1. uh huh

they say this as their excuse to hire cheap offshore shit

[cap]

2. Oh pulease! No other profession asks its members to undergo a verbal pop quiz

on minutiae during its interview. Unlike college, the questionnaires never revisit how they pose the question to see if there is a bias. Teachers periodically rewrote test questions because they know that too many fail questions if they are poorly asked.

I wonder if the writer of the article could pass a similar exam.

BTW, I wonder how the H1Bs are doing? Or the guys in India that get the offshored work. No questions asked there. Just write the contract. Its all a matter of price.

Imagine if health professionals were given a pop quiz on the details of body parts, or lawyers on
arcane points of law.

[TZ]

6. No other professsion asks its member to undergo a verbal pop quiz?

:wtf: I assume you know nothing about the biology field. Not only have I had pop quizzes during interviews but actual tests in the lab of my abilities. BTW, asfaik, all applicants for the technical fields get the same kinds of "tests". Oh and there is actually a BIAS agaisnt people who get advanced degrees in other countries.

I imagine that health professionals and lawyers do get pop quizzes during interviews. Sheesh. What an ignorant post.

[meeshrox]

11. Exactly!

ANY kind of technical field SHOULD have such a quiz...especially when you deal with state regulations. For example, my husband does petroleum/contamination remediation work. His entire interview was a quiz on the regulations and testing for this contaminant, or how do you sample that...I would expect nothing less from a professional firm looking for qualified individuals.

[Confusious]

9. I had a pop quiz in IT

What would you do if a disk failed on a raid 9 setup?

Others which I can't remember. I also had a freaking committee looking at me, and not being the social type, I bombed.

[lurky]

3. What kind of education did he use to screen applicants?

Computer Science has a very standardized curriculum across universities. Somebody who couldn't answer the questions he describes would not be able to pass the first class in a legitimate CS undergrad major program. Even if they somehow got through that, they would never survive the more advanced courses.

Now, there are other computer-oriented degree programs (usually with names like MIS or Information Technology) that are really just business degrees with a technology focus. Somebody could probably get through one of those without being a competent programmer.

And then of course there are all those fly-by-night "technical colleges", online universities, and certification mills....

[comtec]

4. this used to be a very simple process

write a program that does X in 20 minutes.
you look at the real and pseudo code, and that's how you decide if the guy knows what the hell he's doing.
punt, out!
what utter bullshit this is!

[pezDispenser]

5. The interviewer does a poor job of finding candidates

I am a developer and team lead. I do a fair amount of technical interviews in the course of my job. I have 2 things I'm concerned about when interviewing a potential candidate. Are you going to be a productive member of my team and will you be able to work in this environment. When I first started doing these interviews I asked the same BS questions to determine if a candidate was qualified or not. I found all those questions help to identify is the candidates who studied up on interview questions prior to the interview.

I found a much better way of identifying qualified candidates was to have a detailed discussion about some previous projects they have worked on. This required a bit more effort on my part in understanding the candidates work history, but allows me to find out a lot how the candidate works, how technically adapt he or she is, and how much work did they really do on the projects they have listed.

IMO that interviewer is taking the lazy way out and I'd bet his hires suffer because of it.

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. Usually the interviewer isn't the one finding candidates

I often work as an outside consultant when a client of mine wants to hire a full time employee.

For every job opening online, one must be prepared for hundreds of applicants that cut clear across the spectrum from totally clueless and cute to competent with a nasty attitude. And there is simply not enough time, money or resources available to discuss prior projects in detail with every applicant, nor would it be productive even if there were.

I interview candidates with tough technical questions before the actual interviewer even gets to know of their existence. I agree with the OP in that there's no point in asking any standard personnel type questions before one establishes competency because the vast majority of applicants, over 90 percent in my experience, cannot program their way through a VCR clock change and some of the ones that can actually program, resent being asked to do anything at all.

Once I determine who's got the chops, sans a holier than thou attitude, then would I pass them onto my client for an actual job interview. I think this is SOP now in the industry.

[Lithos]

10. I am an arch and my experience agrees with yours

You have to take the time. Programming is more about process and less about trivia.

My thought is that the guy either can't read a resume to do the preliminary screening or he has a power trip.

L-

[nickinSTL]

8. and yet my wife, with 10 years of programming experience

can't even GET an interview

:eyes:

I wasn't given a verbal quiz, but did have to sit at a computer and DO the work I was applying for - turns out that of the people interviewed, apparently I was the ONLY one who could actually do the work coming in.

Edit to clarify: my job is not programming