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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:00 PM
Original message
Study: If aliens exist, they probably want to destroy us
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 12:06 PM by Ozymanithrax
Study: If aliens exist, they probably want to destroy us
British scientist Simon Conway Morris believes there are only two possibilities for alien life; either we're alone or aliens exist, and they are out to get us.

When considering the prospect of alien life, humankind should prepare for the worst, according to a new study: Either we're alone, or any aliens out there are acquisitive and resource-hungry, just like us.

These two unpalatable options are pretty much the only possibilities, according to the new study. That's because evolution is predictable, and alien biospheres should thus produce intelligent creatures much like us, with technological prowess and an ever-increasing need for resources.

But the fact that we haven't run across E.T. yet argues strongly for the latter possibility — that we are alone in the universe's howling void, the study suggests.

"At present, as many have observed, it is very quiet out there," study author Simon Conway Morris, of the University of Cambridge, told SPACE.com in an e-mail interview. "And given many planetary systems are billions of years older than ours, I'd expect us to be best grilled on toast back in the Cambrian."

I have some problems with this:
(1) Resource Acquisition: Alien Civilization uses up all it's resources and comes to conquer us it is a cliché in Science Fiction. What we have found is that there is a vast number of planets out there, each planet will have resources, most of those planets will have no life. A civilization bent on acquisition will seek to exploit resources in its own stellar neighborhood first. If there is a way of traveling quickly between stars (a notion that has yet to be prove) it would still be incredibly challenging to set up trade routes with other systems and ship that material back. Why go to the trouble of getting resources at a huge distance and shipping it back at a unbelievable cost?
(2) The nature of intelligent life: We don't know the exact limits on what is intelligence. There is some evidence that Elephants, whales, Dolphins, and other large brained animals may be as intelligent as humans. These animals, being specialized to their environment, will never build a technological civilization, and so never reach a point where they would go wondering between the stars to steal our horses and rape our women.
(3) Technological civilization may very well carry a sort of end by date. It has proven terrible destructive of the environment that we rely on. It may be common for such civilizations to destroy themselves with their own polluting techno feces before they become a problem to their neighbors.
(4) Militarily, even if a civilization is inferior, projecting sufficient power through interstellar distances, quite possibly at well below the speed of light, to conquer another world is a silly enterprise. We send off an army that will not report back for two thousand years? Most civilizations on Earth rose and fell in less time than it would take to send sufficient military force to an alien world to conquer it and bring back those resources.

I agree, that all life is competitive, fighting for space and food. But the idea that some civilization is gong to come to earth and ship off our resources is probably a bit premature. We should wait until we find that life and overcome our own suicidal cultural technological impulses.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. humans -- persecuted even before they're persecuted.
weird.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
41. Actually, Optimus Prime said we have the right to be free and
he and the boys are doing their best to make it so. Uh, what? Its a show?

Never mind ...
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Here's the deal: An alien race capable of interstellar travel would NOT be interested in...
...our resources, simply because any alien culture with such a high level of technology would be able to utilize the staggering amount of raw material available in the rest of the Universe.

There's no need to come here and steal our (whatever). If they can casually travel to nearby stars, they are able to acquire whatever resources they need.

Unless we're talking Earth Women, because aliens need to plant their unholy seed in our Earth Women. But that's less a matter of resources and more of taste, IMO.

PB
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Exactly...and one of the points I made.
It is a silly study.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. If there is someone out there...
...I really wish that they would get here--and fast.

I would love to see the look on neighbor's face; the one who insists that the universe is only a few
thousands years old and that dinosaurs are really Jesus horses.

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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. I've been making that point for a while now.
A civilization capable of interstellar travel would, in all likelihood, posses the capability to build and destroy at the atomic and maybe even sub-atomic level. They would be able synthesize any raw material they need directly from their local star, nearby supernova remnant, molecular cloud or any host of stellar objects. Like you said though, there is no accounting for taste.

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. "We have come in our advanced fusion-powered spacecraft in search of dihydrogen monoxide."
You know, here's a possibility:

What if it's a multi-generational craft, and the beings who arrive in it have forgotten generations ago how the thing works? They arrive, with their stores depleted, not knowing how to use their dive to create oxygen and water.

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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. If they attempted to take it by force,...
they would be annihilated by the savage culture that awaits them on Terra. If they forgot how to use their replicators then it stands to reason that they forgot how to use their "frikken" laser beams. Especially given that in a closed system (the ship)they would need to hold on to their ability to make stuff longer than their ability to kill stuff. That applies to technology as well as the strategic knowledge needed to wage war. We've honed our ability to kill stuff for thousands of years. They've been chill'en in the rec room for thousands of years. "Dihydrogen monoxide" is the perfect example of what we're talking about too. I roll my eyes when people say "they'll want Earth for it's H20". Really? The stuff is everywhere as a substance and in it's elemental form. It would probably be the first substance an advanced civilization learned to build at the atomic level.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. The first thing they'd make would be water. Then some kind of lubricant to masturbate with.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 04:20 PM by Ian David
It's a LONG trip.


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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. ah
To Serve Man, it's not a guide, it's not a cookbook, it's a quest for better lube!

And what makes the best lube for aliens? I propose John Boehner's tears.
They are plentiful and they have just the right mix of nicotine and alcohol to fit the alien's biology.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Last night, Manswers on Spike TV said watermelon juice can give you a boner. n/t
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. we're men
oxygen can give us a boner.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
43. DUzy
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
42. we've used up about 90% of our stuff. what do they want?
what have we possibly got that they want? Unless conservative fat heads rendered down make great fuel. could be.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Cynical, bizarre and myopic.
We have no idea what is out there. Or if anything is out there. Therefore, we have
no clue as to the motives or dispositions of any possible alien life form.

All we can do is speculate and that is quite fun and interesting.

However, this opinion is pretty cynical and only one of many options.

It sounds like this person has been tuning into "V" lately. I know I have! That Anna is one bad-ass, alien lizard!

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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wouldn't it make more sense that advanced
alien life forms have already learned to cooperate with one another to the degree that they could make intellectual and scientific leaps?

It is just as likely they have evolved beyond our ability to imagine who they are or what their motives for contact may be.

If it were me... I'd ignore us and move on.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. I dont think so
conflict in my opinion is a necessary corollary to intelligence.

Still, the general point is that they could get 100s of times more resources significantly easier by mining asteroid fields and Oort Clouds of the systems that do not have spacefaring civilizations then invading a single planet that probably only has a fraction of one percent of the resources they can get elsewhere.

Where I'd guess conflict, including possible violence will come in, is when two space faring cultures have reached the stage where they occupy multiple star systems and are bumping into one another that way.
But any such civilization coming to us would either find us boring or a curiosity.

The only possible exception might be the need for biological material, DNA, cloning, etc.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. What sort of conflict?
Military or theorectical arguments? Scientific problems? That kind of conflict? How would you or I know this or apply it to theoretical alien life?

I do not believe we would even recognize alien intelligent life. I do not believe we have enough of an insight of life beyond our small experience here to imagine what constitutes life or intelligence in other universes.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. there are few places in this universe where
resources are infinite. Even at the solar system level they can be used up. I think with lack of resources comes conflict...generally of the aggressive kind. I don't think that changes because the life grows up on another planet.

I don't understand your question. None of us can "know" anything about alien life since said life has as yet not presented itself to us.
We can however make reasonable assumptions and guesses based on life as we've seen it here, particularly the wide variety of life we have here, and our pretty decent knowledge of chemistry.
I think we would likely recognize alien intelligent life and I believe we have more than enough insight to imagine all sorts of things.

You appear to sell us woefully short for no apparent reason that I can discern.
Life may surprise us on the edges, but for the most part, I expect the basics are the same here, on Rigel 7, or in Andromeda.
There are only a limited number of chemical basis for the efficient exchange/production of energy, and there are only a few substances that are liquid at a reasonable temperature range.

Like I said, there may be some peripheral life that escapes us at first glance, but I would be shocked if the bulk of it isn't fundamentally similar to us biologically, and I would be shocked if the various emotional responses we see in every intelligent life form on Earth would somehow be missing from other intelligent life forms.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. I never would have thought bacteria could use
arsenic to build its DNA and RNA either.

Simply put... I don't know how alien life would present itself. Conquerer or peacemaker, I don't have the knowledge at this point to draw any inference about what the intentions of an alien life form would be. No one does.

But if any life form has progressed to the point that it has conquered the problems of space travel, one would hope it has also conquered any problems involved with it's own survival. I wouldn't attribute our own human traits and struggles to an alien life form.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. first of all
that isn't unquestioned, second of all, it isn't intelligent life.

I'm pretty sure bacteria don't think too much about war or peace.

And yes, you do have the knowledge to draw inferences. Whether or not those inferences are reality is a different story, but the argument we can't draw reasonable ones is just with all due respect silly.

Conquering space travel says little about conquering anything else, it just says you understand physics really well.
Our "human" traits are also observed in large part throughout the animal kingdom, they aren't just "human" traits.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. You've given me much to think about.
Thank you.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. An amusing take on that in this "new" Twilight Zone episode.
A Small Talent for War

Less than 8 minutes for the whole episode!

PB
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. That was a great series. Nt
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flakey_foont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. what I don't understand
is .. if they want to conquer us,,, why didn't they do it a thousand years ago when all they had to contend with would be bows and arrows, instead on nowadays when we have nukes
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HeroTwins Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. anyone who claims that Aliens will act like we do is very egotistic.
We have no idea what aliens will look or act like.

The Universe is full of endless surprises. Unknown unknowns.

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. Ascribing human failings on non-humans is a logical error.
If the aliens are intelligent, they'll just leave us alone and come back after we've destroyed ourselves.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Another remnant of the British Empire projecting his nation's guilt
on the rest of the Galaxy.

Sadly, it will resonate clearly in the American Empire as well.
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-11 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
55. Exactly! Same hyperbolic, right-wing thinking that has pervaded this planet
for thousands of years. Always self-centered, unable to comprehend anything outside its own box. The right-wing couldn't conceive of anything but hostility from aliens. Hell, they already do! I'm of the opinion that progressive liberalism is the only path out of this mess and that now more than any other time in modern and ancient Western Civilization has it become a strong force on its own. Still not firmly planted to withstand the onslaught of fundamentalism, but we are hearing our voices around the whole world.

Conservatives can only project their own fears onto the situations they deal with. And they do the same with their science fiction. But only liberals through liberal policies and practices will be able to make beyond the earth. If "the republic" becomes a force outside of earth boundaries, it will be in spite of themselves and more than a little luck, not because of their careful planning or concern for life on earth.
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Exultant Democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. This is so speculative it's just absurd. Plenty of scientist belive that
the more advanced a civilization the more likely it is that they have developed advanced morality in order to escape the prisoners dilemma.
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JustFiveMoreMinutes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. And basing assumptions on US, chances are....
.. they would destroy their civilization before conquering interstellar travel.

So you're left with 1) an advance alien race with interstellar travel who DIDNT destroy themselves HOPEFULLY would be socio-independent to survive without conquering.. 2) WOULD NOT give the technology to other alien races who are evolving into self-destructive beings.

Just sayin'................
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. Absolute nonsense!
As was posted above, any civilization that has the ability to travel among the stars would undoubtedly have the technology to harvest resources from the trillions of comets, meteors, planets, stars, dust clouds etc.

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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. Don't believe it. INquisitive, not ACQuisitive, imo.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Clearly an alien race would rather expend resources to conquer
us for our resources than to just go to a planet with no life and just mine resources at a much lower cost.

No wonder the aliens won't talk to us with people like this wasting our valuable oxygen resources.
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
16. This sounds like a Republican mantra
Either they are going to be the only game in town or everyone else is out to destroy their "way of life" and take their "freedom".
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. This Calls for Increased Military Spending before its too late!
Whose with me? We need to prepare ourselves since the Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq might be ending sometime in the far future.

This guys views on Darwin.....


Conway Morris then takes up Alfred Russel Wallace’s nineteenth-century position that the evoution of the human mind is inexplicable by evolution:

But there is more. How to explain mind? Darwin fumbled it. Could he trust his thoughts any more than those of a dog? Or worse, perhaps here was one point (along, as it happens, with the origin of life) that his apparently all-embracing theory ran into the buffers?

His solution? God of course. This is no surprise to anyone who has followed Conway Morris’s biological arguments in favor of the Christian God.

If, however, the universe is actually the product of a rational Mind and evolution is simply the search engine that in leading to sentience and consciousness allows us to discover the fundamental architecture of the universe – a point many mathematicians intuitively sense when they speak of the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics – then things not only start to make much better sense, but they are also much more interesting. Farewell bleak nihilism; the cold assurances that all is meaningless. Of course, Darwin told us how to get there and by what mechanism, but neither why it is in the first place, nor how on earth we actually understand it.

In his peroration, Conway Morris, triumphant, asserts that the fact of human rationality and consciousness puts paid to atheism:

To reiterate: when physicists speak of not only a strange universe, but one even stranger than we can possibly imagine, they articulate a sense of unfinished business that most neo-Darwinians don’t even want to think about. Of course our brains are a product of evolution, but does anybody seriously believe consciousness itself is material? Well, yes, some argue just as much, but their explanations seem to have made no headway. We are indeed dealing with unfinished business. God’s funeral? I don’t think so. Please join me beside the coffin marked Atheism. I fear, however, there will be very few mourners.

I don’t want to fulminate at length about this terrible and misleading “logic,”

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/simon-conway-morris-becomes-a-creationist/
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. Why Speculate, we have had a good example of Aliens going to a "New World"
That was Christopher Columbus and the whole discovery of America from 1000 AD toll about 1600 AD. When Europeans first arrived (The Vikings around 1000 AD, unless the Irish beat them to it) the Native Americans were more then strong enough to stand up to them and force them to trade instead of Conquest. This trade continued for hundreds of years, even after the Vikings descendent's had abandoned Greenland (The Cod Trade in the Great Banks was tremendously profitable). What Europeans would do it sail from Europe to North American (Took about six weeks to three months), then breach their boats on a beech and do repairs. At this time trade would occur, but being fishermen of limited trade for while they had Iron that the Natives quickly saw the advantage of, the pelts offered in exchange were NOT something the Fishermen wanted (Other people in Europe controlled the Fur Trade and if to many furs came off the fishing boats, those traders would complain and the ruling elite would want a share in the profits, often at the expense of the profits the fishermen earned as fishermen).

Anyway, once the boats were repaired, the Great Banks were fished and the hauled back to Europe (The trip form North America to Europe is controlled by the Gulf Stream so is much faster, most boats would be back home in Europe within a week of finishing fishing).

This survived for hundreds of years, till Columbus appeared on the scene. On hearing Columbus having sailed West and found land, the Fishermen of England, worried about their claim to the Great Banks, had the King of England send someone west to "find" the Great Banks. Then and only then were the ruling elites of Europe told of the Great Banks and the profits from the Great Banks.

Anyway, as Columbus made his four Voyages to the New World, he had to find a way to pay for the trips. His original plan was to sail to China and establish a new trade route. When it became clear that was not possible, the Spanish reverted to what had been a customary action at that time period, having someone sell their slaves to the Spanish who took them back to Spain (Notice Spain could NOT make them Slaves, that would violate Catholic and Spanish Law of the time period, but the same laws accepted slavery if someone was already a slave by the laws of that slave's county. The Spanish used this loophole collect slaves and later gold.

I will not go into the Conquests of Mexico and Peru, but in both cases the Conquest was at best superficial and could have been thrown off within a generation HAD THE NATIVE POPULATION STAY HEALTHY. The problem was the Spanish brought with them diseases that the natives were NOT exposed to (Small pox in particular) or spared native diseases to populations never exposed to them (this is the case given for Syphilis).

It was this huge drop in population (Roughly 90% of the Native population) that prevented any successful revolt against the Spanish. The Spanish were not nice to the natives, but Spanish interaction with the Natives was NOT the cause of the massive die off (other then exposing those natives to disease).

My point is that any contact will also see interaction of diseases between us and the Aliens. Some of these Diseases will be deadly to us, others to the Aliens. Conquest for some sort of wealth may be attempted, but easily defeated UNLESS YOU HAVE A MASSIVE DIE OFF. That is the lesson of the discovery of the New World and is applicable to aliens coming in contact with earth, and more relative then mere speculation based on nothing.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. What if the aliens want us all to worship Six-Legged Alien Jesus?
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 02:50 PM by Ian David
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. Any civilization advanced enough to reach us is also advanced enough to have more efficient means...
... of acquiring their needed natural resources.

The Universe is full of raw materials, free for the taking (or synthesizing) that does not require the shedding of sentient life.

For example, if a space ship can be driven by nuclear fusion, then they can create any element they want (up to Iron) while still breaking-even on power.

They CERTAINLY don't need to kill anyone to get something as simple as hydrogen, helium, oxygen, water or carbon-- or amino acids and proteins.

Their primary reason for reaching us would have to be exploration, curiosity, and cultural exchange.

Or maybe trophy hunting, like in Predator.


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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. Ability doesn't equal desire.
I think there are much better choices for the coverings of a car seat than leather. But that still continues to be a premium covering. Why? Prestige.

In a society where any food can be synthesized, unsynthesized food could be viewed as a decadent luxury.

And that takes me down to 'What would aliens want HERE ON EARTH?' Raw resources they can get anywhere. But our life forms are most likely unique in the universe. Rare. Some tasty. Some beautiful. some entertaining. Some useful. Perhaps we humans would be a commodity to be harvested as well.

Or maybe a nuisance to be eradicated. Or, if they happen to be benevolent aliens (not a given, in my mind) we might be considered the owners and caretakers of our worlds goods, and the aliens would deal with us for whatever we would be willing to give up. That's not necessarily better. Would we, say, be willing to give up our remaining old grown forests for viable fusion power? What about a license to hunt cetaceans in exchange for the secret to a true faster-than-light star drive? Are we humans wise enough for those sorts of choices?

I LOVE topics like this.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Leather feels the best. Most durable.
Nothing is perfect but I like leather over cloth or plastic.

--imm
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. Whatever they can't make themselves is apparently hidden inside our asses.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. LOL!!!
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
32. Assuming interstellar travel
No warp drive, just sub-light craft, it's conceivable that a civilization could populate an entire galaxy in just a few million years which is a small amount of time compared to the age of the universe and is the heart of the Fermi Paradox. Assuming a purported Type III Kardashev civilization, they would be utilizing the energy of entire stars. They would also be fairly hard to overlook. There are astronomers who are studying other galaxies looking for purported Fermi bubbles (or Fermi voids) where stars have been encased in Dyson spheres or their energies somehow otherwise redirected as the civilization slow expands at a fraction of the speed of light. If such civilizations existed, then we should expect to see galaxies in various stages of colonization. So far, no such luck.

Now, while several million years is a small amount of time cosmically speaking, it's a very long time on a biological scale where (at least year here on Earth) most species have lives on the order of just hundreds of thousands of years. Perhaps they biologically engineer new bodies or do away with "wetware" altogether and become machine like. In any case, our galaxy right now doesn't exactly seem to be overcrowded with advanced technological species or they would already be here.

Now all that means, is perhaps they just aren't here yet. This hypothetical "they" could still have a couple million year head start on us and they just haven't gotten around to our little corner yet. Still, the point remains, like bacteria in a petri dish, exponential growth will sooner or later eventually outstrip everything, even in three dimensions. So, one hypothetical alien invasion scenario (out of an infinite number of them) is not so much that the purported aliens would necessarily need our resources right now but instead possess a desire to "nip us in the bud" before we can start expanding out and competing with them. Or maybe they're just assholes. It's sobering to consider that to a sufficiently advanced civilization, we would be little more that potential pest problem. A weed, if you will. (You really want to nip that crabgrass in the bud so to speak.) :)

I highly recommend the book, Where is Everybody by Webb where he explores fifty different solutions to the Fermi paradox. Great speculative stuff.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
36. Someone's been reading Greg Bear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forge_of_God

Bear's solution to the Fermi paradox is that any fledgling society that makes the mistake of advertising its presence is snuffed out by other galactic races not wishing to have the competition.

Of course, modern analysis suggests that the signals we send out really aren't getting far at all before they blur into the background noise. But the cynical idea that the law of the jungle prevails even at the galactic level was a refreshing point of view compared to many of the science fiction optimists of the time.

Greg Bear is a cool dude, too. He gave me some fine advice on a project I'm working on and may someday even finish.
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denbot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
38. What if we prove to be a tasty delicacy?
All your bases are now belong to me..
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
44. My one thought that would agree with this approach ...
> any aliens out there are acquisitive and resource-hungry

... isn't that "they" would beam down and start mining the planet
(with or without a preceding cleansing attack) but that the resources
that they require would obviate them even looking for us ...
and, even if they noticed us, this wouldn't cause any more concern
than an open-cast miner cares for the earthworms on the mountain
surface or an oil-rig worker cares for the benthic organisms being
poisoned by "routine leakage".

If your method of extracting higher mass elements involves the
"processing" of a star (e.g., triggering a supernova) then you are
focussed on that job, not the effect it might have on the biota of
any orbiting bodies.

Better still, if your method of travelling between stars is to
ignite the one being left behind and riding the resulting wave
to your destination, why worry about the lower forms of life that
have been incinerated/irradiated/dispersed/frozen in the process?
(Tip of the hat - as ever - to Larry Niven on that one.)

It is ego to the extreme to believe that we are anything higher
than bacteria to life-forms that are capable of interstellar travel.
:shrug:
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
45. While this article is kind of ridiculous, I don't think it's unreasonable to think some aliens
Edited on Fri Jan-14-11 10:43 AM by Phoonzang
would want to attack Earth. I don't buy the argument that any space-faring race would be "beyond" violence and conquest. There are many other possible motivations an alien race could have for attacking us that go beyond plundering our resources. I mean...let's use our brains here. There's lots of "maybe's."

Maybe the aliens would want to convert us (forcefully) to their religion.
Maybe the aliens are peaceful among their own kind, but would have no problem wiping out another species.
Maybe they view combat as a form of respect or communication.
Maybe they fought among themselves on their home planet and one faction won (think about the Nazis conquering the entire world and then turning to space).

There are a bunch of other maybes that I had in mind, but I've kind of forgotten them now. Anyway...science fiction provides us with a multitude of motivations for alien invasion that are just as valid as anything scientists have come up with.

I won't even get into with the Fermi Paradox is a pile of fail, but I think it's foolish to assume that we're alone in the universe, much less the galaxy.

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
46. Why bother staying in the universe you are born in...
... when you can simply create a new universe that's more to your liking?

I suspect intelligent species don't stay long in the nest. They hatch within the galaxies and then they move on.

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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
47. So they hate us for our freedoms?
Logical extension, I'm sure.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
49. My main problem with this is that *all* studies about the nature of ETs are purest speculation.
Speculation is not a study, or science of any kind.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. no, it is not pure speculation
it's reasonable inference.

There is a difference.

Now those inferences could end up being wrong, even wildly wrong, but given the wide variety of life found under a wide variety of conditions and our pretty detailed study of it all, it moves well past pure speculation.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-11 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Nope, sorry. Inferring from a sample size of zero is pure speculation. (nt)
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. I wasn't aware there wasn't any
intelligent life on this planet or life at all. Clearly if there is a sample size of "zero" then it must be the case that there is no life at all on this planet to study, observe and use to make guesses about life elsewhere in the universe which we are a part of and which operates under the same physical and chemical laws as here.

Who knew?
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
53. An interstellar race will probably have fusion reactors and make elements
as they are needed. Scoop up the hydrogen in instellar space and take if from there.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-11 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
56. If there are life forms out there (and I see no reason why not),
they'd have to be AWFULLY advanced, as in literally capable of speed-of-light travel, to get here.

Our nearest star is four light-years away. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. Multiple that by 360, and you get about 66 million miles per hour. And still, it takes FOUR YEARS to reach the nearest star. Just look at how long it took the Voyager satellites to reach the edge of the solar system.

Now if there were such beings, and if they landed on Earth, we would be in the same position as the Native Americans at the time of Columbus.

Not a pleasant prospect. Even if they didn't need our resources, they still might like to have some slaves, and they might well bring diseases that we are not immune to.
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