PETA's got some 'splainin to do for this one,

[Warpy]

and I'd rather give people on this forum first crack at it. Trust me, somebody completely hostile will post it on GD eventually, and people who defend PETA had better get their ducks in a row:

"Ahoskie police said they arrested the two members of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals after staking out a garbage bin where animals had previously been dumped.

"PETA president Ingrid Newkirk said the workers were picking up animals to be brought to the group's headquarters in Norfolk, Va., to be euthanized.

"Newkirk said PETA has never made a secret of the fact that most of the animals the group picks up from shelters in poor North Carolina counties are euthanized.

"Veterinarians and animal control officers said the PETA workers had promised to find ho"mes for the animals rather than put them down."

http://www.wral.com/news/4621556/detail.html

This is not flame bait. This story was posted on IRC, so keep your knee jerk defense of the organization to yourself. This is a request for an explanation of just why they'd put animals down rather than leave them where they were with a chance at adoption, and why they'd then dump them in such a fashion that spread of disease was not only possible, but likely.

On edit: larger story at http://www.herald-sun.com/state/6-617862.html

[flvegan]

1. We've done pretty well for ourselves and our PETA pals

Please read this post from shockra:
It is against PETA’s policy to put the bodies of animals in dumpsters, and we are appalled that a member of our staff apparently did that. There is no excuse for that and, despite the fact that she is a caring soul, we have suspended her from work.

PETA has always supported and spoken openly about euthanasia. It is easy to throw stones at those doing the dirty work for society, but euthanasia is a necessary evil until the massive animal overpopulation problem can be solved. We invite anyone who can offer a home to any animal, pay for one or a hundred spay/neuter surgeries, or persuade others not to go to a pet shop or breeder, to please join us in doing these things. In the last year, we have spayed/neutered more than 7,600 dogs and cats, including feral animals, many free of charge and all others at well below our own costs. Support for this program is much needed.

To clarify, we do not run an adoption facility, although we do place animals, approximately 360 in the last year, despite having run out of friends and family members to approach. We are a “shelter of last resort,” taking in and giving a painless death in loving arms to animals who would otherwise have been shot with a .22 or gassed in a windowless metal box, which is what happened in North Carolina before PETA offered free euthanasia services to agencies there. North Carolina has the second highest rate per capita of euthanasia in the country—35 animals killed annually for every 1,000 residents—and most do not die a humane death. Sadly, the shelters we work with have no adoption programs or hours set aside for adoption. At the Bertie County dog shelter, residents were throwing unwanted dogs over an 8-foot-high fence, where they became infected or injured by other sick or aggressive dogs from whom they could not escape. Bertie County also had no facility for cats and used to let them go to breed in the woods and fend for themselves until PETA built a shelter for them this year. PETA has begged for years, through formal proposals and numerous meetings to have the county allow PETA to implement an adoption program as part of a larger picture of sheltering that would also include a spay neuter program, a humane education program, 24/7 emergency services, and rabies clinics.

We try never to take in adoptable animals unless we know we have a home for them—only those who are mange-covered, have parvovirus, are injured, old, unsocialized from life on a chain, or unwanted and for whom there are no good homes available. We also work at the roots, spending more than $240,000 in one North Carolina county alone, to provide shelter in winter for animals left out in the cold, to spay/neuter, to get vet care for animals in dire straits, to send Bertie County’s one animal control officer to professional training, to pay a cleaner to maintain two shelters, and much more.

We have always outspokenly advocated fixing the problems of overpopulation through practical methods. Sadly, those stories don’t get coverage in the media.

A recent feature by PETA on their work with NC animals:

http://www.helpinganimals.com/f-nc.asp

Here's the thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1555864

[Warpy]

4. Thanks. This is what I was looking for

and what will need to be posted in GD when the time arises.

[ahimsa]

5. PETA is largely responsible...

..for our becoming vegan 16 years ago. And we've supported them financially for most of those years until recently. We stopped because they are no longer (if they ever were) consistently promoting animal rights instead of animal welfare. There has always been a great debate in the animal rights/welfare community whether animal welfare will lead incrementally to animal rights or whether it will hinder animals ever getting rights. While we continue to support PETA in any of their programs that are rights-oriented, we decided we wanted our scarce funds to go towards groups that consistently promote animal rights. One group that we believe does that better than PETA is Friends of Animals. Here is their take on this situation:

Release from Friends of Animals 

For Immediate Release: 20 June 2005

Friends of Animals' Statement On Killing Healthy Pet Animals

In Ahoskie, North Carolina, two employees of a high-profile animal protection organization currently face numerous counts of felony animal cruelty, and several misdemeanor counts of illegally disposing of dead animals. Police relate the charges to an alleged pattern of killing healthy dogs and puppies and tossing their bodies into a refuse bin.

An Associated Press report quoted veterinarian Patrick Proctor of Ahoskie Animal Hospital as further stating that authorities found a female cat and her two "very adoptable" kittens among the dead animals, and that "these were just kittens we were trying to find homes for."

In the wake of this appalling series of reports, we at Friends of Animals would like to state that the Ahoskie killings described in the recent press reports are not euthanasia, and that they are a serious affront to animal rights.

Animal advocates have no business in the killing of healthy sheltered animals. People who engage in such conduct -- regardless of killing or disposal methods -- convey the message that they and their supporters have accepted a reprehensible practice.

And the issue is not a choice between killing or doing nothing.

Alternatives to the cycle of breeding and killing do exist. For example, Friends of Animals has successfully co-ordinated a national project responsible for sterilizing over two million dogs and cats since 1957. This Spay and Neuter Project effectively intervenes in the tragic cycle of reproduction, and has spared tens of millions at the very least.

In September of 2002, Friends of Animals' president Priscilla Feral invited animal protection groups nationwide to join this project. If groups across the country were to accept Feral’s proposal and put resources into such a campaign, the amount of animal suffering would decrease beyond the animal advocacy community's wildest dreams.

Through a concerted effort to stop the breeding of pets, we stem the tide of animals who wind up in shelters in the first place. Only in that radical way -- radical meaning at its root -- can the problem be resolved.

Excellent examples are also set by shelters and rehabilitators with no-kill policies. No one in the animal advocacy community should be undermining these shelters. By supporting no-kill zones, we press municipalities to face facts: There's no room in town for breeders.

Moreover, local and state officials will place a high priority on no-kill when their constituents demand it.

Animal advocates must delve deeper than the level of symptoms, and unearth the root causes of suffering. Victory will not come overnight, but with wide support and a serious understanding of our role, we can interrupt the cycle of breeding and killing domestic animals -- a cycle which, after all, we human beings put into motion.

Friends of Animals
777 Post Road
Darien, Connecticut 06820
Phone: [phone]
Web site: http://www.friendsofanimals.org

Contact: Lee Hall, Legal Director
e-mail: [e-mail]

====================================================
Tell others about low-cost neutering: phone the Friends of Animals
certificate hotline at 1-800-321-PETS.
If your group can support local and national efforts to prevent
breeding and killing of domestic animals, write to [e-mail]
and join our shelter action list.
====================================================

[Catchawave]

6. FOA and PETA have a "history" I think ?

I've never read anything positive about PETA in their releases for as long as I've been aware of them :shrug: And it looks like their exploiting Ahoskie to benefit their agenda?

Sort of pulling a Frist here too by claiming :

"In the wake of this appalling series of reports, we at Friends of Animals would like to state that the Ahoskie killings described in the recent press reports are not euthanasia, and that they are a serious affront to animal rights."

Where they there?

[livinginphotographs]

8. That's one of the main reasons I developed reservations about PETA.

In the Hampton Roads area, there are several other animal rights organizations, and PETA and the smaller ones are constantly fighting over territory at protests. Quite a few of the smaller ones are ex-PETA employees who became disillusioned. Of course, this is just heresay, but take it for what it's worth.

I still think PETA does a hell of a lot of good, and I defend them in these threads simply because I think people aren't only attacking PETA but the entire animal rights movement, but there are quite a few petty political battles that go on within PETA daily, and within the entire AR community in Hampton Roads, that sort of soured me on the entire organization. It's kind of like I'll bitch right and left about Democrats, but I'll still support the party from freeper attacks.

I would just like, for once, to have a decent discussion about PETA on DU without the usual suspects coming out in their never-ending quest to not only bash PETA but the entire idea of animal rights.

[justiceischeap]

18. Not from what I've seen

In the Hampton Roads area, there are several other animal rights organizations, and PETA and the smaller ones are constantly fighting over territory at protests. Quite a few of the smaller ones are ex-PETA employees who became disillusioned. Of course, this is just heresay, but take it for what it's worth.

I've never seen this and I go to protests all the time. I was just at one in DC this past weekend and members from HSUS were there and I didn't witness any pissing contests. I attend a monthly KFC demo in the Hampton Roads area (Five Points to be exact) and have not witnessed any problems either.

[livinginphotographs]

20. Like I said, it's been a few years.

PETA may not have even been at fault, but when my brother was hooked up with them, and then joined a couple other organizations, he mentioned the pissing contests. If that's over with, good.

[flvegan]

9. I have 2 rules, and this violates one of them.

As the founder and President of a local animal rescue AND advocacy organization, I subscribe to 2 beliefs.

1. Support other organizations that are working towards a campaign that fits with (our org's) Mission Statement;

2. Never, ever speak ill, publicly, of another organization that works as an advocate for animals.

I'm a fan of FoA, but this leaves a very, very bad taste in my mouth, as they've just bitch-slapped every open-intake shelter out there. That not only can't be afforded, it can't be accepted. That knife will be tough to remove from the back of an organization that has done more to further animal rights than any other group on the planet.

[JJswans]

10. FOA comments

FOA >>> Animal advocates must delve deeper than the level of symptoms, and unearth the root causes of suffering. Victory will not come overnight, but with wide support and a serious understanding of our role, we can interrupt the cycle of breeding and killing domestic animals -- a cycle which, after all, we human beings put into motion.<<<

In my opinion, the above is very true, BUT while we are trying to achieve the victory that won't come overnight, we need to deal with the animals in need NOW. It's so simple for people and groups to talk theory, but when there is an animal in need, and there is no one to care for it because there are 100 more that also need help, it just doesn't make sense to insist on "no-kill." No-kill is a goal, but it's not a reality at this time. FOA isn't the only group that is pro-active in spay/neuter - Peta is also.

I'd also like to comment on this idea that Peta should have left these animals in the hands of the vet that they took them from. That vet was also euthanizing animals that there was no room for, but he was doing so inhumanely with a paralytic agent that caused suffocation while the animal was still totally aware of what was happening to it. Peta's method of euthanasia was more humane.

The drug used by the vet is Succinylcholine chloride, which is not acceptable for animal euthanasia, because it causes animals to suffer and it does not meet the criteria stated in §130A-192 of the General Statutes of North Carolina, which states that animals must be euthanized by a procedure approved by the AVMA, HSUS, or AHA. The AVMA states, in its 2000 “Report of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia,” that “When used alone, the injectable agents listed in Appendix 4 (…all neuromuscular blocking agents) are unaccepatable and are absolutely condemned for use as euthanasia agents.” Succinylcholine chloride is a neuromuscular blocking agent. As the AVMA Panel Report notes, “When used alone, these drugs all cause respiratory arrest before loss of consciousness, so the animal may perceive pain and distress after is immobilized.” HSUS and AHA also condemn this drug for euthanasia in conscious animals.

[livinginphotographs]

11. Great point regarding the euthanasia method.

I think it was one of your posts I was referencing today (the thread was locked before I could post) regarding the method of euthanasia.

Welcome to DU, by the way, in case I haven't welcomed you before.

[ahimsa]

12. What would HSUS do?

BTW, I'm hoping this can be the "decent discussion" about PETA you were looking for, as am I. Maybe not even so much about PETA but animal rights in general.

I happen to agree with Friends of Animals in this case - I don't think animal "rights" groups should be driving around killing animals. That said, on a ideological level, I don't think animal "rights" groups should be spaying and neutering animals. I realize, as do FOA and PETA, that the reality on the ground is different than the lofty one in our ideals. So it comes down to where someone draws the line between respecting an animal's inherent rights to live their lives undisturbed and interfering in an attempt to reduce their suffering. Both groups, it seems, agree that pets are a special case because they are essentially human constructs. One group draws the line at spaying and neutering and the other at euthanasia. I believe FOA and PETA differ when it comes to "managing" some wild animals (deer, geese, I don't recall the details at the moment).

This PETA program, along with their KFC campaign and similar campaigns, are not animal "rights" campaigns. I would prefer that PETA not spend my money on these programs and now they aren't. There are plenty of groups that are a lot more focused on these issues. If these were the campaigns I wanted to support financially, I'd probably consider directing my money to HSUS as this would seem to be right up their alley. But what would HSUS do in this case? I don't think they would do what PETA does -- even assuming this specific incident is truly just a bizarre case of misguided activists.

If I were HSUS (or PETA, if they are going to do this anyway) and trying to devise a program to ensure that animals who otherwise would get shot, gassed or whatever would instead be humanely euthanized, and I was willing to invest the time and resources to drive vans to these shelters and inject them at no cost to the shelters, I would have tried this instead:

1. Drive the vans down with the supply of injections
   
2. Train the appropriate shelter workers in the proper way to administer the injections (in theory, you'd only have to do this once)
   
3. Let the shelter workers administer the injections
   
4. Let the shelter dispose of the bodies in their usual way
   
5. Resupply the shelters as necessary

What I am interested in learning is why PETA decided instead to:

• Euthanize the animals at PETA or in the van if they are suffering
  
• Dispose of the animals in crematoriums

Because, it really seems unnecessary. I could put on my :tinfoilhat: and pull out one plausible explanation - if they didn't want the shelters to know they were going to euthanize the animals. But I don't think that's likely. If any of you have the answers, I'd love to hear them. Catchawave, you seem to know what's going on (with the injections and all) - why didn't PETA just train the shelters to use them? Also, what "history" do FOA and PETA have? I'm not aware of it and I'd like to know.

The burning questions which I assume we'll find answers for in the trial: Why these "rogue activists" chose to:

• Pretend they were going to try to place them in homes (if true -- I guess we'll find out during the trial)
  
• Euthanize the animals in the van instead of at PETA HQ
  
• Dispose of the animals in dumpsters instead of a crematorium

[flvegan]

13. What would HSUS do? I'll tell you.

HSUS is largely a lobbying group. HSUS would do their damndest to get a law passed, or some other form of legislation on the books that would make it illegal to euthanize a companion animal any way other than the vet delivered sodium pentabarbitol. HSUS isn't so hands-on, though the folks that work for them, Wayne Pacelle included, IMO, are.

Additionally, PETA offered the training route. They were refused by a number of the shelters. PETA did what they could. I believe that.

[Catchawave]

16. More HSUS PAC info here:

http://www.humaneusa.org/

Warning to DUers, it's very bipartisan :applause:

[Catchawave]

15. Hi Ahimsa !

Re: "Catchawave, you seem to know what's going on (with the injections and all) - why didn't PETA just train the shelters to use them? Also, what "history" do FOA and PETA have? I'm not aware of it and I'd like to know."

First of all, so glad you're here for civil discussion! And a sidebar: probably my biggest attraction to DU was that Democrats and Animal Rights advocates are both equally disorganized :) Which is not a bad thing if your heart's in the right place!

I think JJswans addressed the medically challenged NC vets and shelters, which should be more disturbing than sloppy PETA employees. Shockra and others have been providing links to the deplorable inhumane conditions in that area too. Unfortunately, NC is becoming the poster child for the mis-handling of pet overpopulation problems, whether it be lack of financing or human ignorance, aka: it's only a dog or cat!

As far as my knowledge of FOA, they've been critical of PETA in most of their articles. I just hate it when animal advocates "eat their own". That's just my personal opinion, and I do admire FOA for caring about the animals. But when I see them dissing another AR group, I just find that disturbing. All animal advocates and organizations should be treated respectfully and without malice.

This whole ugly PETA mess should address the "causes" of pet overpopulation, not the people providing the "bandaids".

[justiceischeap]

17. To answer one of your questions

PETA has been working in NC for years attempting to train the appropriate people to perform humane euthanizations and are still trying to do that work. The crux of the matter is that most of those working in "shelters" in NC do not care. The problem in NC is so much larger than just euthanization--it's overwhleming, unless you've seen it first hand, you can never fathom how bad it really is. Anyway, the reason PETA performs these tasks instead of leaving it to the "shelters" is because they cannot be trusted to do the job properly.

PETA has <b>never</b> hidden what they do in NC as far as euthanization is concerned, with the shelters or the vets.

As far as my personal opinion goes, I suspect the vet is doing his on bit of PR--if people knew he had an agreement with PETA, I could see that hurting his business. Whatever your personal opinions about euthanization are, just keep in mind that the work PETA has been doing in NC has been good and unfortunately, this may harm it. Let's hope not but it is a very real possibility.

I also believe that folks that are concerned should be doing more than discussing whether PETA took the proper route in this matter. You should be contacting people in NC and asking why this is such a huge problem in the first place and asking them to do something about it. If change could be made by legislation, PETA wouldn't be facing these problems right now. Hell, if more people did what PETA did, nationally problems would decrease.

[livinginphotographs]

22. JJ....

I'm discussing this on another board and wanted to use your info about the chemical the vet used for euthanasia. Do you have a link or something?

Also, does anyone have links about how PETA euthanizes animals?

[shockra]

23. PETA Statement at Press Conference

http://www.craigslist.com/sfc/pet/79476003.html

Answers both questions.

[livinginphotographs]

24. Great, thanks!

[ahimsa]

25. Thanks, Shockra

Thanks for posting that - it'll be interesting to see how this all pans out.

[justiceischeap]

26. Here's PETA's web page regarding the matter

http://www.helpinganimals.com/f-nc.asp

[livinginphotographs]

2. This is probably a much better place to discuss this

than GD.

The problem that certain posters in that "other" thread refuse to admit is that the two people that took these animals may have been operating outside of PETA's authority. I doubt very strongly that PETA would order someone to lie to shelters specifically to euthanize animals, but if it turns out they did, you're are right that they'd better do a very good job of explaining it.

One thing I keep noticing is that there are no direct quotes in any of these articles from Newkirk, just "Newkirk said this and this." No animals are euthanized at PETA headquarters, at least they weren't last time I was around there, so that makes me wonder how authentic that "quote" actually is. And one thing these articles generally fail to bring up with the poor quality of the shelters that these animals were taken from.

[Catchawave]

3. Update from Va-Pilot 6/18

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=87978&ran=119183

<snip>
Animals were not supposed to be killed in North Carolina, except by veterinarians hired by the organization or if they were in too much pain to travel, PETA said.

After they are killed, Newkirk said, the carcasses are supposed to be sent to a crematorium, not dumped in bins.

“That conduct disgusts us,” Newkirk said of the dumping. “It shames us. It violates our own protocols, it happened without our knowledge and can never be allowed to happen again. But our work is important and our work must go on.”

The two PETA employees: Adria J. Hinkle, 27, of Norfolk , and Andrew B. Cook , 24, of Virginia Beach, appeared Friday in Hertford County District Court . Each faces 31 felony charges of animal cruelty and eight counts of illegal disposal of dead animals and one of trespassing.

A probable cause hearing was set for July 19 . PETA will pay for their attorneys, Newkirk said.

<snip>

[Catchawave]

7. Anymore updates?

Since the hearing is set for July 19, I think the details will be mute until the investigation is over ?

Nothing in the VaPilot Sun/Mon, unfortunately the anti-spin will continue. :::sigh:::

[Catchawave]

14. Editorial in today's 6/21 VaPilot:

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=88082&ran=238373

PETA snared by own mission
The Virginian-Pilot
© June 21, 2005

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals isn’t shy, about its mission or its tactics. It uses graphic videotape of suffering animals to campaign against cosmetics testing, or against factory farming; it dresses activists up (or strips them down) to agitate against fur.

At its heart, PETA hopes to change what Americans wear (leather, wool), what they do (hunt, fish) and what they eat (meat, milk). It does all this in a supercharged emotional arena, which can inspire self-righteous fervor in followers and visceral opposition from detractors.

So when PETA’s own people are caught throwing the bodies of euthanized dogs and cats from local shelters into Dumpsters behind an Ahoskie, N.C., grocery store, the outcry is loud and long and justified.

The disrespect the dumping shows for the lives of those 80 animals, which made the simple mistake of being born and taken to a rural Carolina shelter, stands in harsh opposition to PETA’s mission and goals. Those two employees deserve the disapprobation of anyone who owns and loves a pet if they are merely guilty of disposing of animal remains thoughtlessly........

...cont'd at link. With hopes you can access it without registering!

Also, the following statement was in the print edition of the VP:

"Coming Wednesday: Our mailbox has been swamped with letters about the PETA controversy. On Wednesday we will devote extra space to PETA's detractors and supporters. This will include an explanation from PETA president Ingrid Newkirk."

[justiceischeap]

19. Here's video of what is done is one county in North Carolina

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=yadkin_county

Yadkin County has a mandatory kill policy, prohibiting adoptions, supposedly because of a fear of rabies.

[shockra]

21. I'm glad you found a video.

That will come in handy.

This bothers me a bit extra because I just visited North Carolina for the first time in April. My first trip out of state in 5 years. Now I'm thinking back on the animals I saw there, especially one horse that I noticed tied up at the bottom of a mountain as we were driving past. My heart went out to it because it looked like it was old and in poor condition. I wondered how many others noticed it and if anybody would have that situation investigated. I doubted it, and now I doubt it even more.

As Judge Judy likes to say when people try and put one over on her "If it doesn't make sense, it's a lie." To me this story doesn't make sense. PETA employees dumping animals would have been a story all right, but not one the media would have preferred because it would have begged the question of "why?" Which would have shone a light on the animal situation in NC.

Much better that a vet said he was told these animals would be adopted out. And he would be inclined to say that, unless he wanted to look like an accomplice. This way the story is able to be framed as a hit piece on PETA rather than one that looks into the deplorable conditions for homeless animals in NC.