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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:15 PM
Original message
Knives? Advice? Experience with different brands?
My faincee and I have been slowly builindg up our cookware collection over the past 9 years and pretty much have a complete set of all-clad stainless cookware and bakeware as well as the few kitchen gadtes we feel are essential (Kitchen-aie 6qt mixer, kitchen aid blender and that's about it). What we are really lacking is good knives and we're really not quite sure what kind to buy.

Henckels is what we see referenced most, but are they really the best or are they the Bose of kitchen knives (ie do they really suck but just have great marketing)?

So please give me your recommendations for brands and essential knives to have!
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Longhorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. You might want to check out this discussion:
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Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm pretty sure Cook's Illustrated did a comparison
a while back. I don't remember the rankings - you might want to see if that's available at their site.

Regarding the other thread referenced, don't go with Cutco! I couldn't believe I saw that discussion there... it sure brought back memories! When I was 18 or 19, I thought I'd give it a shot, selling Cutco... I didn't last through the training, because the script was so lame with horrible grammar, and they didn't want me to adapt it so I'd feel comfortable saying it.

I do still have a few Cutco knives around, though, and the construction isn't nearly as good as a Henckel or other good brand. I'm planning on putting a couple of knives on my Christmas list, so if I get my research done, I'll post it here!



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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. personally, I'm REALLY happy with a coupla Wustof knives...
...and a nice Chinese cleaver. I like the feel of my Wustofs better than that of Henckels knives I've used. Just my subjective opinion, though. The real key is keeping 'em sharp.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wusthof 50% off at Marshall Fields
I noticed the sale while browsing through their online catalog.
High carbon steel is important, and the knives should be forged.
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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. Alton Brown's pick - the most beautiful knives ever - Kershaw Shun knives
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
6. I know this sounds dumb, but just buy "good" knives ....
What do I mean by "good"? I mean expensive name brand professional knives. And watch out for seeming "deals" on these same name brand knives. In knives maybe more than anything else you get what you pay for.

The German brands are all excellent. Henkels, Wustoff, Forschner, maybe one or two others. The French make Sabatier, which I find easily as nice, and maybe better. (scratching my head ... I think Forschner may be Swiss and not German .... anyway .....)

But beware. As everyone has become more sophisticated in their understanding and appreciation of good kitchen tools, appliances, and of course food, it has been necessary for manufacturers to also compete on price. A **good** knife is a complicated thing to make. All have in common a full tang. This is the extension of the blade that runs completely through the handle and is visible as a silver stripe along the top and bottom of the handle. Also, there is a bolster where the handle meets the blade. This is a "thicker" part of the blade that appears to sort of "streamline" the handle into the blade. In a good knife, the blade, the bolster, and the tang are all from one piece of metal, folded, forged and shaped to be what you see. In the cheaper lines even from top brands, all is not as it appears. The tang and blade may be two pieces welded together. The seam is hidden by a bolster that is simply a casting that is cast around the blade/tang assembly. In short, they cheat. Now, to be fair, the price of one type vs the other is reflective of the quality.

Go for the more expensive ones.

You will also see some knives that have no bolster, and maybe no visible tang, by these same manufacturers. These are okay as light duty knives, but they will never compete with a good chef's knife for durability. I have several of these and they're useful in certain applications. The do hold a good edge, but since the blades are thinner, their edge doesn't perform like their big brothers. All in all, these are good, serviceable knives that do very well for some work, but are wholly wrong for the heavy lifting. I have a few of these and they get used for slicing fruit and that sort of thing.

Consider also Asian knives. These are interesting. Their shapes are quite different from Western knives. The better ones have only one cutting side. The opposite side is dead flat. In operation, they have a nice habit of pushing each slice away from the blade, clearing the way for the next slice .... very cool. But they also tend to wander in a way that causes a lot of wedge shaped slices - thicker at the bottom of the slice than where you started at the top. Once you get use to them, this phenomenon goes away, but if you're not practiced, you sorta feel dumb using them. Most Asian knives have wood handles and actually look a little cheap as compared to Western knives. But don't let that fool you. They're every bit as high quality and well made. Beware of cheap ones, though. Expect to pay for an Asian knife the same as for a comparable Western knife. Almost all of them are available only in high carbon steel.

Speaking of steel, knives are available, generally, in either stainless steel or high carbon steel. Stainless is easier to care for and always looks nice and clean. It is, however, much harder to get a good edge on them. Once sharp, however, they stay sharper longer. The lesson in this is to keep them sharp so you don't have to work as hard to restore the edge.

Carbon steel is often seen as superior to stainless. I don't personally agree with this, but since I'm no expert, I advise you make your own judgment. Carbon steel discolors. No way to stop that, so don't even try. It is the nature of the material and in no way is a bad thing. They're just not shiny. More a dull gray with a really dark spot here or there. They are softer than stainless and as such are easier to sharpen. They "take an edge" faster and seem to be sharper. Here's where I depart on the relative merits of one steel over another. Just because they're easier to sharpen and seem to get a nice, razor edge faster does not make them better. Stainless can take the same edge. It is harder to get there, but it can be done. Carbon also needs more frequent sharpening to keep the edge. Stainless knives can go far longer.

Handles is another area to consider. Knives that are generally of equal high quality can have different handle material. Wood is still available but falling out of favor because it is affected by water. For some uses, however, it may be the best choice. You also have a Bakelite-like material, generally black. There are also molded materials that are cast onto the finished knife; these include nylon and polypropylene, among other plastics. he main thing here is personal preference. How does it feel in your hand? In all but some molded handles, you'll see rivets holding them on.

Sharpening is another issue for good knives. There are two things to keep in mind. There's sharpening and there's steeling. They are not the same. Sharpening is the removal of minute amounts of metal to shape and align a blade and render it sharp. It needs an abrasive - a chef's stone or a diamond pad. As you use a knife, the edge will "burr" with use. Burring is the bending of the very edge of the edge. In that the metal so thin there, even a soft item like meat can cause it to bend over a short amount of time. A steel straightens this burr back to perfect alignment. The steel is that long rod with a handle on the end that has those parallel ridges running its length. A steel does not sharpen. The ridges simply bend the metal back into alignment. Some metal "shavings" may remain on your steel (almost all of them are magnetized). This is not metal removed by sharpening. It is minute particles of the burr that have broken off. Steeling should be done each time you use your knife. Sharpening happens when a knife needs it (1x/yr .... 2x/yr max). Good steeling habits reduce the need for sharpening.

As a sharpener, consider either taking your knives to a sharpening service or buy an electric sharpener. The service will do a pretty to superb job, but costs. The electric sharpener will do a great job too, but the good one could set you back a hundred bucks or so. I have a Chef's Choice (not sure of the model .... 110?) with the three slots. Its worked great for me. This company also makes a two slot unit for less and some manual ones through which you drag your knives. I'm not sure how well any of these work.

When its time, you could buy a set of knives. I suggest you buy individual knives and get exactly what you want and need, and what feels good in your hand. In sets you get one or two you'll use and a few you'll likely never touch. Don't be afraid to mix brands. They're tools, not decorations. Also, consider cheaper knives for some uses. For example, we have a cheap-o serrated bread knife from Kohls that has been terrific and we've had it for years. Cost .... mmmmm .... 10 bucks? It looks a lot like a top brand with the handle and bolster and full tang ..... but it is one of the cast bolster jobbies. Not to worry. It only cuts .... bread!

Last, some of these rules go by the wayside for certain types of knives. A good ham slicer will not have a bolster. A fish filleting kniofe will have a long thin and very flexible blade, and again, no bolster. A boning knife - meat or poultry - can have several balde widths and shapes, and no bolster. There are knives to cut steaks from primals that look like, and are called, scimitars - long, wide, curved blades. Serrated meat slicers for roast beef. And on and on. Clam knives, oyster knives .... even scallop knives. If you just like collecting, that can be a sport all on its own!

Wow, I got carried away! Anyway, I hope this is helpful.
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Don't worry about getting carried away....
I'm getting an excellent education on the nuts and bolts and why on various subjects. Thanks for all the help.

Cooking shows are great but, they don't talk much (if at all) about the equipment - so I'm all on eyes!

:grouphug: DU'ers are such a great bunch.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. i have a rule with my carbon knives, I wipe them and put them back in the
block immediately, they never sit dirty or in water and I have great luck with ancient knives I've had 20-30 years

thanks for the "steel" info, i just dug mine out and added it to the knife block :)
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NamVetsWeeLass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kyocera Ceramic Blades
Although Expensive they do rock. I used to Watch Ming Tsai, and he uses them as a professional chef.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Very sharp, but ......
Out of the box, ceramic knives can shave the fuzz off a peach. And they hold the edge a long time .... years.

But they're difficult to sharpen and in fact cannot be sharpened at home. I'm not sure if they can be (the ceramic equivalent of) steeled, or even if they need to be. When they need sharpening they have to be sent away. Also, the ceramic is brittle and the tips are subject to breaking with any misuse.

That all being said, you're right. They're a joy to work with. Make ya feel like a surgeon!

Ming Tsai uses his own branded line of ceramic knives on the shows he does.
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NamVetsWeeLass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I know he used to use Kyocera...
On East Meets West, they were like the top Credit at the end.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Kyocera is prolly who makes 'em
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. saw this on Costco.com, spendy but are they worth it?
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Not a bad price ... IF you want everything in that set
They're made in Germany, not China, so that's a plus. And they're one piece blade/tang/bolster, another plus.

Let's deduct, say, $30 for the knife block and, say, $10 for the shears, and you're left with an average per knife cost of #32.50. The largest knife is probably a $60 - $70 item. The steel is maybe $40. That's gives an average cost of $23 for each of the rest of the knives.

Not bad.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. i pulled out my steel and am using it like a good girl
Edited on Mon Dec-13-04 12:34 AM by AZDemDist6
sharpened all my knives and got my block set with the best I have after reading your excellent advice

one more question please, I found a ceramic post thingy like a steel when I dug out the steel "deburrer"

what do i do with that? I have 2 carbon knives, 5 stainless ones in different shapes and a serrated knife I use for bread
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I can only guess about the ceramic post thing ........
Probably a sharpener or s substitute for a steel. But I'm just guessing.
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