Dream kitchen

[Tab]

My wife's dream kitchen would consist of a vending machine and a large garbage can.*

But mine...

First it would be done either in stone and wood, or maybe tile and wood, or lastly brick and wood.

I'd have a wood-fired oven. And an convection oven. And a gas grill.

Walk-in fridge's.

A TON of clear counter space.

A place where friends could sit and socialize while I cook dinner.

Wonderful lighting and music.

I want a kitchen that I would hate to leave.



* (I love her, she's just not into doing any cooking herself).

[Stinky The Clown]

1. What's old is new .........

In centuries past, the heart of the home was the hearth. Cooking and socializing was done there.

Then along came servents and even if one didn't have servents, one still hid one's kitchen .... effectively sentencing the houshold cook (usually the wife) to banishment from social discourse.

Eat-in kitchens followed. Family interaction (with the houshold slave - aka wife) was now possible, but this wasn't a space one used to entertain 'company'.

Enter the 1970's 'great room' concept. The kitchen was usually next to it and often looked into it. A closer conenction to 'company', but still with a separation.

And today ..... the high tech version of the hearth. Which you described.

What's old is once again new.

(And that wood fired oven ..... ? That's my number one dream appliance, too. Ours may get built in our backyard. The plans are drawn and its still on the radar, but lower in priority than some other projects still undone.)

[The empressof all]

2. Here's a question you may be able to answer

I'm planning a kitchen renovation in about 2 years. I want to knock down a sit down counter and open the kitchen into the dining room. The dining room is huge and has a wood stove. I know nothing about this but is it possible to buy a wood fired oven to replace the wood burning stove we have now just for heat. It shares a chimney with a fireplace upstairs. Would that matter?

I'd love to have a wood fired oven for pizza and bread and if it's an easy do I'll add that into my plan. It's across the room from the kitchen area but who cares.

[Tab]

4. Sure, why not?

There are some very nice small ones (check this out: http://www.mugnaini.com/index_1.html )

If you have a wood stove sharing a flue with a fireplace, you are probably fine, but first visit the above link (or some other manufacturer) and find the oven you want and get the spec sheet for flue requirements for that oven.

Then call in a chimney guy to look at your setup - you can probably get a free estimate - and tell him what you want to do and show him the specs for the new stove. He'll be able to tell you if the current flue will handle the throughput or if you need work done on the chimney to accomodate it (alternatively, call him in first, and he can tell you what the maximum size the current one will accomodate).

A wood fireplace sharing a chimney with a fireplace isn't really any different than a wood stove sharing a chimney.

What's usually not allowed is a wood stove sharing a flue with a oil or gas burner. When I moved into my current house, it had a wood/coal stove that shared a flue with the oil burner. Not good. I replaced the stove with a nice woodstove and had the chimney redone so the oil burner and woodstove had separate flues.

A lot of people up here have more than one woodstove on a flue, and that's okay (commonly, one in the basement or a lower floor, and one on an upper floor). But sharing with a burner that burns other kind of fuels is generally not a good thing.

Regardless, your chimney guy (most chimney sweeps do repairs and new installations) can tell you what's allowed in your area and what's safe.

But, man, if you can get a wood fired oven in your kitchen.... oooooohh...

[Stinky The Clown]

5. Here's another link for a wood oven .........

The one Tab posted is a prefab jobbie that you simply need to frame in and face. The dome (the hard part) is ceramic and comes in sections, like half an orange cut into wedges. This link (http://www.fornobravo.com/pompeii_oven/oven_overview.html) is for one that gets built entirely from firebrick and brick on your site. The website shows both indoor and outdoor installations and the plans are .... tada .... free!

There are, as always, trade-offs. The prefab oven is easy to install but pricey. Also, the thinner material (the oven is all cast ceramic) doesn't do as well at heat storage as a thicker (brick) oven. They both work great for pizza, but the thicker heat mass is needed to bake bread. In a wood fired oven, bread is baked on the stored heat, not the heat from the fire used to heat the oven (as is pizza). So the brick oven might be the better bet if you can either build it yourself or find someone to do it for you. But the prefab is a sure thing and will fly through the local building inspector. The brick oven may or may not.

Do some research before you go too far down this road. There's lots to be had on the internet. Also check our archives here on DU. There have been several threads here in C&B about this and one poster (WillyT?) even has one they built themselves.

If you wanna get one that does a great job, is as easy to use as an electric (well .... almost) and will fly through any code official's office, look here. http://www.woodstone-corp.com/products_ovens_wsbl3030.htm. The oven uses gas for the fire and a very high tech ceramic for the hearth and dome, and it is all nicely insulated and code certified for safe and efficient use. These people make commercial ovens but were pressed to make this one for Wolfgang Puck's home. (His restaurants use their commercial units, as do Bertucci's and Carrabba's) They made this small version and now offer it for both home and light commercial use. It retails for around $10-$12K.

So ..... lots of things to think about. The least of it all is your flue :)

[Tab]

8. I'll vouch for the Forno Bravo one

Regrettably, due to an Unfortunate Series of Events, I lost a treasure trove of links that I once kept, of which the Forno Bravo was one, but I recognized the name the second H2S posted it. As he said, if bread is your objective, FB is probably better, but for straight pizza...

That said, if I had a wood fired oven that I got for pizza, at some point (months or years) I'd be intensely curious to see how bread would work out in said oven. I am a cook by nature, not a baker, but I'd want to check it out. Only you yourself know.

I hadn't heard about the other one (Woodstone Corp) but will give it a look. Bit on the pricey side, though. You do get the flame effect, but I suspect you don't get the subtle wood-smoke effect, and I like the flavor wood imparts.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. The idea of wood smoke flavor is more real than the fact ........

I hate to say it, but the wood does not impart much in the way of flavor. If it did, that food cooked in coal ovens would taste horrible. But the very best NY pizza (by many estimates) was cooked in both wood and coal ovens. What gets thought of as the 'wood' taste is, in fact, smoked/burnt flour that singes instantly on contact with the 600-700 degree (or even hotter) cooking deck. It carmelizes and the flavor is sublime. Black ovens (ovens in which the fire is built in the baking cavity - as opposed to white ovens, where the fire is outside the baking cavity) cook pizza on the fire (increasing heat) cycle and bake bread on the declining heat coming from the thermal mass storage (the oven dome and walls). Declining heat doesn't fire the flour as does fire heat. The Woodstone oven to which I linked is available as a pure wood oven, a pure gas oven, and as a dual fuel (wood or gas, but not simultaneously). They have run extensive taste tests under very controlled, scientific conditions (as scientific as one can get when the end measure is subjective taste impressions). They found what has always been postulated to be true. The wood imparts virtually no flavor. It is simply a romantic notion.

By the way, as far back as black ovens have been used (the second oldest cooking method, after the open fire), it has been known that the best fuel is not logs but faggots - bundles of thin wood branches and twigs. Economical, readily available, and allowing the valuable logs to be used for better purposes. The faggots burn hot and fast, they heat the oven evenly. They also have the least wood 'flavor' - that comes from the logs.

Woodstone is good people. I have known them personally for many years. All they make are these ovens and they take their work seriously. Each oven is, quite literally, hand built. Their high tech cermaic mix is still cast by hand in an almost 'primitive' sort of way. But their burners (for their gas ovens) and their temperature controls are state of the art. Art meet science. They are also quite likely the world's best authority today on black ovens.

As to bread baking .... you can, in fact, cook bread in a 'pizza' oven. You just can't do as many bakes. A bread oven has a higher dome and more thermal mass. A good one, fired properly, can do six, eight, maybe even ten bakes before it is too cool. A pizza oven, particularly a small one like we're talking about, will probably get one good bake and maybe a second bake. Even the prefab ones can do this. So yes ... they can bake bread. Just not too much of it at a time. But for the home baker .... that's probably all ya need anyhow.

[NMDemDist2]

3. i got a chance 20 years ago to build my dream kitchen from scratch

cherry cabinets, all Corian (it was brand new then) with a huge bay window with a big hi-lo Kohler sink (just like the one I just got for this kitchen)

it had an island large enough to seat 4 on one side with a bar sink behind them under the pass through to the formal living room, the fridge was off to the left with a large pantry, the island had a pop up down draft cooktop with grill and big slide out drawers underneath for all my pots AND a big custom pot rack

since we lived in the country with no garbage pickup, I had three roll out garbage cans built into th cabinets, 1 for burnables, 1 for recycles and 1 for dump load stuff

I had double ovens and counter space for days.... 4 people could sit and party and make cocktails while 2-3 cooked/prepped with plenty of room and both could access the fridge with out crossing into the prep area

and finally, at the end of the counter it had a small roll top desk built in so I could do my bills and lists and just close it down when company came with just enough of a top for the phone to sit up there when the desk was closed

it had a half wall that you could look into the family room and cathedral 14' ceilings

that kitchen was the BOMB! the only time i left was to go play pool in the room that the plans called the "formal dining room" but had extra footers to hold the weight of a regulation sized slate table

that house knew how to party I tell ya and I was a stay at home wife so there was always something cooking and I could feed a party of 10 with 4 hours notice any day of the week

I used to go the 70 miles to Sam's Club and load two flatbeds every month/6 weeks

if only the husband wasn't such a jerk, it woulda been a hell of a life :rofl:

[wildeyed]

6. My dream kitchen might have been my last kitchen.

Nothing fancy about it, but perfectly laid out for a single cook. Stove and sink on one wall, fridge a few steps over on the left wall, and an island for extra counter space and a place to eat. It had windows on two walls for light and looked out on my back cottage-style garden. I LOVED that kitchen, I was so damn happy there, and I have never gotten over leaving it. A rule, you shouldn't get your dream kitchen in your starter house. And unfortunately the previous house was small and on a busy street, not appropriate for small children.

I have plans drawn for renovating my current kitchen. My house is large, but cut up into small rooms. I plan to bust out the wall between the oddly shaped and small den and the kitchen, The TV will go upstairs into a large extra bedroom and the former den will become what is trendily know as the "hearth room" or the "keeping room"; A nice space to sit and lounge that is open to the kitchen, but is not really big enough to do much with.

As far as appliances, I was so grateful to be done with cheap electric stove in rental units and to have a decent gas unit. That is all I really aspire to. Although I did see a pretty nice Viking at the re-store the other day, along with a Sub Zero. Hmmmmmm........

[Tab]

7. I don't know when I will build my dream kitchen

It won't be in this house, because this house is temporary.

It may be 10 years away, I don't know.

But once it's built, I'm never moving.

Who wants what in their dream kitchen?

[Warpy]

9. The kitchen I had that worked the best

was jammed into a 8x8 room in a very funky Boston apartment. It had a tiny gas range in one corner, and a tiny fridge next to a cheap fake wood cabinet with a large stainless steel sink opposite. I put a counter the length of it next to the stove and had a piece of kitchen storage furniture that fit next to the sink base on the other wall. There were open shelves circling the entire room, minus the door in from the hall and the door out to a fire escape.

That incredibly tiny kitchen afforded me counter space I've not enjoyed since, plus it was so tiny there were few steps needed to get from one area to another.

It's the kitchen I learned to cook in, and I did some truly amazing things in that space over the 3 years I lived there. Nothing matched and the whole thing was as ugly as sin, but my gawd, it WORKED.

If I should manage to hit the lottery, the 1952 kitchen I have now will be modified in such a way as to have a galley kitchen setup. I've long noticed that women who show off their showplace kitchens with the acres of granite countertops and the eight burner commercial ranges don't actually do any COOKING in them. I want to duplicate something that actually works.

[NMDemDist2]

11. LOL i'll take function over form anyday

although the kitchen I built (see above) worked extremely well in spite of it's "acres" of Corian the main cooking area was great, the stove top was a pivot from the sink and the fridge was 3 steps away with lots of counters for appliances. the "other side" had ovens and the half wall into the family room and was used more as a catch all for mail, newspapers and all the other crap that builds up in the kitchen but that was fine since I had all the nice counters on the other side

and the catch all counter was next to the desk

the room was about 20 x 30 but with good planning it worked extremely well and truth be told I truly only "cooked" in about a 5 x 8 area, the rest was seating and bar space and counters that had I been a clean freak/nazi would have been used to display beautiful things but since I'm not/wasn't it just looked lived in and what i really loved about it was I was always in the middle of the party, but had my own space and never tripped over anyone trying to get dinner done cuz nobody needed anything from my work area

[BamaGirl]

12. Well since I am never moving again

(6 times in 10 years when we were still active duty Army :P), mine will have to do lol. I really like my kitchen actually. It's small, but you don't have to walk across the room to get to anything. We're going to tile it this year, and one day we're ripping out those crappy cheap counters and replacing them with butcher block. The only thing I'd really like to change is the lack of pantry space. I dream of having a big walk in pantry.

Small as my kitchen is, its still the house hang out. It opens into the dining room, and everyone just kind of hangs between the two rooms lol.

[politicat]

13. Mine would start with an internet appliance built into a wall

So I never had to deal with looking up and printing a recipe. One that can also play DVDs and CDs, read CD roms, and basically be a laptop ruggedized for a kitchen setting. (I hate having my laptop in the kitchen.)

Seamless counter tops and backsplashes so I don't have to recaulk.

A stove with a wok fixture and griddle burners. A walk-in pantry. French door refrigerator.

Dual microwaves. An oven that can handle 700 F, and enough insulation around it that the rest of the kitchen is safe.

Stainless steel sinks and appliances. Maybe stainless countertops.

[Dora]

14. A genuine pantry, to start...

Bright lighting and windows

a pot rack

a lid rack

one wooden countertop

a compact dishwasher

enough electrical outlets

a stepstool for my son so he can help when he's big enough to have an interest

new drawers and cabinets

a knife sharpener

stand mixer w/ appliance lift

[EstimatedProphet]

15. Ooooohhh. Very nice. Mine:

BIG-enough room for a lot of counter space and an island too

Pan hooks, PLEASE! Pans in the cupboard drive me nuts!

Walk-in pantry

Double-size refrigerator at least

Full-size freezer too

Indoor grill

Enough electric plug space for everything

A small table with chairs

[yellowdogintexas]

16. planning to convert/do over my 1960's kitchen this year

it is a galley with a closed wall at one end. The refrigerator is against that dead wall..we moved it out of the corner it was in because the door couldn't be opened all the way..it hit the wall.

If I can do this by conserving as much of the existing cabinets as possible it won't be terribly expensive:

1. remove the wall oven and cooktop units.
2. place the (new) refrigerator where the wall oven was
3. place the (new) gas range across the corner, thus eliminating a dead storage corner...I want to have a carpenter build a "frame" around it to help support counter top up to the edge of the stove.
4. new base cabinets on either side of the stove (at last! I can set things down on either side of my cooking space, something I have not been able to do for a very long time )
5. New paint on the cabinets
6. New countertops (ceramic tile, I think)
7. new floor (also tile, most likely
8. Fill in the blank walls with new upper cupboards
9. remove an upper cabinet which blocks view from kitchen into family room and as part of the countertop process, make a raised bar on the family room side of the base cabinet, with a bookshelf for cookbooks under it.
10. Install some of those cool hardware upgrades that help make better use of the blind corners,etc.http://www.reico.com/

11. Hopefully I can get some extra drawers.
12. My micro wave will NOT be on the counter top
13. New kitchen sink, deeper than the current one.

IF my cabinets are structured properly, I can recycle part of the existing base cabinet and the overhead that is coming down from the end of the room.
I believe this would be less expensive than just gutting and replacing all the cabinets, since I don't really need to replace anything on the sink wall.
I could be wrong of course.

Been talking about this for a long time, and refined the arrangements a great deal from the original concept. I promise there will be pictures when we ultimately get around to doing it.

[mike_c]

17. you know, I have a fine kitchen, although it's not special in any way....

No commercial appliances, no fume hood that can suck the breath out of you from across the room or threaten the cats with liftoff. What my kitchen has going for it:

1) It's big enough to have room for a nice old oak table in the middle and a bookcase on one wall along with some supplemental wire shelving storage, and it has all the counter space I need and plenty of cupboard storage, including a closet sized cupboard with rollout shelves. I've cooked for dozens in it, literally, and with a little attention to organization it has no problems with space. Several people can work it in simultaneously as long as they pay attention to one another and to hot stuff.

2) Lots of big cutting boards-- my mainstay hard maple board is approximately 24 inches square and sits next to the sink, but there is a big pull out board and another large free-standing board beside the stove, as well as a stack of smaller ones in a cupboard.

3) Plenty of electrical outlets.

4) Sufficient light. There is only one window, over the sink, but it's a big green-house window, and the electric lighting can be adjusted from romantic dim to no-shadow-left-unilluminated.

5) Simple layout. All the counters are around the perimeter, and the table in the middle serves as an impromptu central workspace when needed. Despite the room being adequately large for two or three to work together easily, the stove is only a few steps away from the sink, which is near the refrigerator, etc. It just flows.

6) Deep double sinks. An undercounter dishwasher that's rather plain, but quite functional. A decent sized refrigerator/freezer combo without an ice-maker, or water dispenser, or anything like that. It just holds lots of food, and keeps it cold and organized.

7) A utilitarian gas range, which is better than a fancy electric range any day of the week. When I want heat, I get it instantly. It's stainless for easy cleanup. Not a honkin' fire-breathin' commercial model, but I've cooked enough superlative meals on it to know that its limits are not particularly constraining. If I had any wishes at all it would be for more oven capacity, but if I had it I'd only use the extra capacity a few times a year. The backyard grill is only a dozen steps away anyway.

8) Fourteen foot tall ceiling. It really does something for the room-- makes it feel much more open and expansive, even when it's crowded. The doors at either end are six feet wide, too-- one is permanently open and the other has glass pocket doors and they're lined up straight across the room-- so they add to the sense of openness.

9) A separate pantry-- small, really just shelves in the laundry closet and room for a smallish chest freezer, but it makes an amazing difference.

[Warpy]

18. That center table makes all the difference

and, IMO, is much better than a commercially done island. For one thing, it's lower than the standard 36" height of the other countertops, something that helps somebody like me really put her back into things like bread kneading and pastry rolling. Those countertops are just 6" too high for that stuff for most women out there, although I'm sure our taller sisters would disagree. That heavy center table also offers seating for guests on the opposite side from where your're working, and seating for everyone for informal meals. That center table is the only thing that allows my 1952, eveything strung out along one wall kitchen to function at all.

I envy you your lighting, though. That's one of the things they didn't consider in 1952. My kitchen was definitely designed with a man who was more concerned with board foot cost than he was with the mechanics of cooking.

[mike_c]

19. I agree-- the difference in table height is often nice...

...and I'm a tall male who doesn't have any problems with counter height. Sometimes it's nice to sit down and work though-- filling tamales comes to mind-- and a counter/stool arrangement just isn't as comfortable.

On edit-- another thing I really like is the tall cupboard with roll out shelves-- I suspect that was originally intended for pantry storage, but I use it for storing pots and pans, mostly. No more bending and searching the back of under-counter cupboards for utensils! I use the under-counter storage for infrequently used stuff, and put all the oft accessed equipment at waist height or higher on the roll out shelves.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. That sounds like a perfect kitchen .......

How old is your house?

[mike_c]

23. the house was built before WWI-- I've been told 1904...

...but was extensively remodeled about 10 years ago or so with a post-earthquake insurance settlement-- I'm guessing because I've lived in it for six years and the owner did most of the work himself over a period of a couple of years sometime prior to that, but I don't think the appliances are much older than ten years or so. The interior walls were not moved, so the original kitchen was bigger than 1/4 of the floor space in the original house, which was quite small (the remodel included an addition). The interior walls are all made of virgin redwood planking under the modern drywall!

[NashVegas]

21. Let Me See, Let Me See

Like you, my dream kitchen would have plenty of counter space. Counter-top material doesn't matter to me as long as it's workable and easily cleanable without special materials that need special cleaners.

I would like a butcher-block island, set a little lower than the counter-tops.

I would like it large enough to comfortable seat 6 at a table.

I would like a fireplace for extra coziness and possible roasting (hey, why not have some function?).

A pantry.

Combo electic/gas stove.

What I don't want that some people consider tha bomb: tile floors. My feet would freeze getting to the tea kettle in the morning (been there done that).

[Justpat]

22. My idea of the ideal kitchen would be one with a fireplace

in it with two big armchairs on either side of it.

It would have a big center work space and the oven
would be a huge gas stove that looked like an old
wood stove.

Lots of light and plants.

I have been thinking about this for years and this is
what I want.