Silverware pattern help needed

[Stinky The Clown]

We have had this silver plate for forever. It is Community Silver plate (by Oneida) and was issued in 1929. It stayed in production through the 1930s and was stopped, we think, in or just before WWII. I've recently started buying some pieces on eBay to fill out the set (now service, more or less, for 12).

Here's a picture of a typical fork:
http://images.replacements.com.nyud.net:8090/images/images5/flatware/O/oneida_heirloom_deauville_silverplate_1929_fork_P0000072557S0002T2.jpg

...... and some others. Notice the tine lengths and the handle lengths. Each is different and that last fork is weird; longer handle and proportionally short tines:

http://images.replacements.com.nyud.net:8090/images/images5/flatware/O/oneida_heirloom_deauville_silverplate_1929_fork_P0000072557S0002T2.jpg
http://images.replacements.com.nyud.net:8090/images/images5/flatware/O/oneida_heirloom_deauville_silverplate_1929_grille_fork_viande_P0000072557S0026T2.jpg

So here's where I need some help ...... as I am getting the new pieces, I'm finding that the sizes of seemingly identical items are different. Just by a tad, but different. Is anyone familiar with all the various silverware types one might have found in these old silver (and plate) patterns?

Just as an example, here are several knives. Each is different in detail. The bolster. The handle length. The blade length.

http://images.replacements.com.nyud.net:8090/images/images5/flatware/O/oneida_heirloom_deauville_silverplate_1929_new_french_hollow_knife_P0000072557S0030T2.jpg
http://images.replacements.com.nyud.net:8090/images/images5/flatware/O/oneida_heirloom_deauville_silverplate_1929_new_french_hollow_knife_with_bolster_P0000072557S0033T2.jpg
http://images.replacements.com.nyud.net:8090/images/images5/flatware/O/oneida_heirloom_deauville_silverplate_1929_new_french_solid_knife_P0000072557S0032T2.jpg

We also have some where the handles are longer than the blades. That makes four different types! Argh!

Same with the forks. We have four different forks, each about the same size, but not quite. And the spoons. And the teaspoons. And .... and .... and ......

So ... is anyone a silver 'expert'?

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

1. I'm pretty good if I can actually see the pieces

in hand, but not over the nets.

Here's a web site that might get you started until someone more informed comes along.

http://www.replacements.com/silver/manu/a.htm

[Stinky The Clown]

3. Actually, that site is where the pictures are from!

(And, for what its worth, they're a pretty pricey place!)

They do, in fact, differentiate a goodly number of the items. For example, the short tined fork they call a 'viande' fork. But even at that, I have several variations.

This old silver was available in a dizzying array of types for sepcific uses ....

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

5. I'm sorry.

Here I give you something you already know about.

Have you emailed & asked them? Or have you emailed the manufacturer?

[Warpy]

2. No real expert here

but I'd expect minor variations in a pattern that was issued over a 10 year period as the stamping dies aged. The differences in the fork tines are explained by the use the forks were to be put to: when people bought silver plate back in the good old days before stainless came out, they required different spoons for soup, dessert, demitasse, and tea and different forks for salad, main course, fish course and dessert. Woolworths used to sell the silver plate in a dizzying array and even people of modest means were able to afford a confusing array of utensils on holidays so their kids wouldn't look like clods when they got rich quick and had to figure out which fork to use. (From the outside in, dear)

What is truly hilarious to me is that yuppies are snapping up the most ornate plate patterns while spurning the plain but elegant sterling patterns. Guess which I inherited. Oh well.

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Yeah, I know they were available for many different purposes .....

Do you know all of them? I sure don't!

Of course, buying on eBay, the buyer often knows more than the seller, so that's no help at all!

[Warpy]

6. The bottom fork looks like a salad or fish fork

as dessert forks had even shorter tines.

The other variations look like they can be explained by tired stamping dies.

My advice is to embrace wabi sabi and treasure each piece's unique nature.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. That was my first thought, too, but no .......

I have the salad forks, which, remarkably, are all consistent, no matter where I find them. The salad forks have totally different tines and have a chevron on the 'fork' part, just above the tines. They're also way shorter. Here's a picture:

http://images.replacements.com.nyud.net:8090/images/images5/flatware/O/oneida_heirloom_deauville_silverplate_1929_individual_salad_fork_P0000072557S0012T2.jpg

That bottom fork in the OP is alternately called a "luncheon fork" or a "viande(s) fork". The picture kinda shows it. The handle, relatively, is long and slender and the tines are short and delicate.

The salad forks are about 6" long and the dinner forks (and the viande forks) range from 7-1/2" to 7-5/8". The true luncheon fork is supposed to be 7", but I have examples from 7 to 1-1/4" This kind of variation seems more than just die wear.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

7. okay, I'm back (had some major cleaning to do)

First, none of those are fish forks or fish knives. On a fish fork the left tine is a little weird. I can't possibly describe it, but once you've seen it you'll know. Also, fish knives have this funny little doohicky on them.

Just off the top of my head there are:

Dinner forks
Salad forks
Luncheon forks (most people use the salad fork, but there are special lunch forks)
Dessert forks
Fish forks (but not yours) both large & small
Fruit forks
Oyster forks


Dinner knives
Luncheon knives
Salad knives (swear to gawd)
Fish knives (both large & small)
Fruit knives.
Butter knives

Then there is the entire realm of spoons & serving pieces. You could load you table up enough that it would collapse under the weight. Though of course you wouldn't because you know that there are never more than three course settings on the table. Additional pieces are brought in as needed.


Yours could be any of those, or a variation of the pattern, or :shrug:

Sorry I wasn't more help.

[Warpy]

9. That's more than I remembered

but I guess my family was less posh than yours. I do remember the dizzying array of forks and spoons, with the knives set on the appropriate plates for buttering one's bread and demolishing one's salad, fruit, or fish.

The sterling set is much more abbreviated, thank goodness, with only two forks, two spoons, and two knives per serving set.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

11. Except that butter knives are never used

at a formal dinner because butter is never served.

[yy4me]

8. Perhaps I can give you a little help,

Your pattern name is Deauville, and it was first made in 1929 as you indicated. Because design in silverware was in transition, many patterns were made in both the "old" style with longer tines on forks and longer knife blades and many were transitioned to the "modern" short tine fork, short bladed knife in the 30's & 40's. When you search the internet for replacement pieces, ask the seller to measure the length of the fork tine from the space between the tines to the tip. Also, the length of the knife blade from the start of the blade to the tip. At least you will be able to tell if you are buying a match to your current settings. Sometimes the "dies" used to mold the flatware are slightly different as most were made by a different hand. Blades on knives were frequently made by factories making just knife blades and sold to the companies making the flatware. The blades will show slight variations on patterns bought at different times. Your silver is a classic art deco pattern and you should have a great time filling out the service. I'm sure you know about Wenol, the metal polish. A little once-over on this flatware will revive its beautiful old shine if the plate has not worn off. Wenol is best for removing the fine scratches and spots on metals, not for tarnish removal. Its great on any metal. Modern dishwashers are death to old silver. I'm sure you know not to soak the hollow handles knives. If water gets into the handle, the filler(usually cement) will expand and split the handle. This applies to all silver and plate that is weighted in any way.
I have had success looking for an old pattern by going to various search engines and typing in the pattern name and then the company. Some antique shops and individual sellers will not show up on all engines. Happy hunting.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. That's **exactly** the kind of info I was looking for! Thanks!!!

Particularly this part ..... "Because design in silverware was in transition, many patterns were made in both the "old" style with longer tines on forks and longer knife blades and many were transitioned to the "modern" short tine fork, short bladed knife in the 30's & 40's."

I had actually done a good deal of internet research on this pattern. The maker has quite a history, having started life as a sort of religious/spiritual commune in upstate New York .... hence the brand name "Community". They also had china and crystal (very hard to find now and very pricey) to go with all their silver patterns. Later they sold out or were otherwise taken over by Oneida, who kept the now valuable "Community" name.

This ownership transition may also explain the variations .... but your comment about style being in transition makes perfect sense, particularly that this pattern had a long run.

Here's a link to a story of the 'community':

http://www.silverseason.com/OneidaComm.htm

[grasswire]

13. I've been picking up pieces of an old pattern...

...and was told that the the forks and knives with the long handle + short tines and blades are called "grille" pieces. I assumed that meant they were intended for a lighter meal, but perhaps it's just a name to indicate a style update.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. Yeah, I've seen these referred to as luncheon, lunch, grill, grille ......

..... viande and viandes forks and knives. They are as clearly different from dinner forks and knives as are soup spoons from teaspoons and dinner forks from oyster forks.

It is the more minor variations that were getting to me. But when one considers the notion of transitioning in styles during that time period, as mentioned above, it all makes more sense.

Most patterns offered luncheon items and dinner items. Some patterns offered them plus grill items, for a total of three groups. In that case, it seems the luncheon items were essentially smaller versions of the dinner items. And my pattern, at least, bears that out. There's about a 1/2" difference between the dinner forks and luncheon forks. Same with the knives.

The variations that have me stumped are the differences in the 1/8" and 1/16" range. It seems to me that worn stamping dies would result in less crisp patterns, but not dimensional differences. However, maybe its just the transitional change and new dies that were used over the years. :shrug:

And then there's the knives. I have four different knives. One of them is clearly different. It has the far longer handle and far shorter blade. So I'm pretty much certain it is a grill or viande knife. That leaves three others. Of these, one is a hollow handled one, as shown at the top of the three in my original post. The two below, if you look where the handle and blade join, have a sort of pinched area. Also, the handles seem to be solid, not hollow. The middle one has a somewhat larger handle than the bottom one, but other than that, they're kinda the same. However, when I lay all these knives out, the blades are slightly different lengths. I now attribute that to the variations made over time.

Anyway, its all pretty dizzying!:crazy: