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question for Hubs2Sparkly--and anyone else who wants to comment on copper!

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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-05 12:47 PM
Original message
question for Hubs2Sparkly--and anyone else who wants to comment on copper!
So, in my ongoing quest to put myself in the poorhouse so that I have beautiful, useful, top-notch kitchen goodies, I now turn my attention (and disposable income) to copper cookware. Given the price tag of copper pieces, however, I want to make sure I choose wisely, and I know very, very little about what to look for in really GOOD copper cookware.

For example, this has caught my fancy:



http://www.hsn.com/cnt/prod/default.aspx?webp_id=1654761&web_id=1654761&sz=0&sf=qc&dept=qc0057&cat=&subcat=&gs=&attr=&prev=hp!sf,hp!sf!dept&ocm=

A local store here carries this same line a la carte, so I'm not in a position of having to buy an entire set.

Anybody care to offer a primer on copper cookware? I promise I won't hold you responsible for feeding my addiction. :P
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-05 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. Okay, that's a copper 'look' set
It is actually tri-ply cookware ..... a thin outer copper layer, a thin inner stainless steel layer, and a much thicker aluminum core ...... the aluminum being the essential material of the pan. The stainless and the copper are just thin layers. The inner stainless layer serves to keep the pan non-reactive to food ... a good thing (think All Clad ... which also makes a set much like this).

Now to the copper on this set. Indeed it has some impact on the cooking quality, but so does the aluminum, which has similar properties to the copper. Both conduct heat very nicely .... and very fast. But the aluminum doesn't hold heat. The copper does. Unfortunately, in pans with this construction, the copper's not thick enough to matter very much.

So what you're left with is a copper skin that does something, but not as much as a true copper pan. But it **does** leave you the chore of cleaning it!

Here's a quote from the August 2005 issue of Cook's Illustrated, a magazine for which I have a lot of respect. I quote this here, but differ with their opinion (the bold and emphasis was in the original article):

COPPER conducts heat extremely well, but it is also expensive and heavy, tarnishes easily, and is reactive, leaching into many foods to produce off colors and flavors. For this reason, it is almost always lined with tin or stainless steel. Not worth the expense.

Okay ..... now let's look at copper cookware more abstractly.

The thing that copper does better than any other metal used for cookware is conduct and **appropriately** hold heat. Aluminum conducts nearly as well, but doesn't hold it. Cast iron is very slow to react to fire changes, but holds heat exceedingly well. What copper has is the best of both of these metals and none of their shortfalls. Turn up the heat and the copper seems to be hard wired to it. Turn the heat down and copper cools off quickly enough that a boil over is easily avoided. Leave it to simmer and the heat stays nice and even, with little in the way of hot spots.

The nature of copper (and virtually all cookware is 100% pure copper) is that it reacts with certain foods. This is advantageous in some limited instances (making meringue or candies, for example) but in most cases it just gets in the way. In extreme cases, it can even be unhealthy. The remedy, found ages ago, is to coat the inside with molten pure tin. Tin is completely nonreactive and can be put into the copper in much the same way, and by a very similar process, as soldering copper wire. The copper is heated and the coating is wiped on, the copper then quickly cooled to solidify the lining.

Of late, spun stainless steel is bonded to a copper pan with pressure and heat, creating a solid nonreactive interior.

Tin has heat properties very similar to copper. Stainless, on the other hand, is a very, very poor heat conductor, so using it as a liner compromises a bit the good qualities of copper. On the upside, it is both permanent (tin needs to be redone from time to time) and easy to clean to a bright, sparkling shine. Tin darkens naturally with age and exposure to heat. It appears a dull, medium gray and looks like it has reacted with food acid. In fact, it has not ... it is simply a part of the way it ages and develops its own patina. Admittedly, the patina appears to be where the pan has been filled with liquid, but that has to do with the heat from the food, not the food itself. In any case, a tin lined copper will not look shiny inside. If this is an aesthetic issue for you, go for the stainless.

A word about the 'look' of copper cookware. To some, they want it to look shiny and new and therefor polish it with virtually every use. This won't really hurt anything, but it isn't really needed. Copper's performance is unaffected by the tarnish until its gets black as coal. Our own copper has lots of 'fire' tracks on the bottom ... dark areas where the flame contacted the bottom of the pot. We're not bothered by this, but some people are. I polish our copper kinda when the mood strikes ..... once a month ... more? Less? When it looks beyond 'nicely used'? .... whenever?

Most commonly available high quality copper comes from Europe, although there's at least one company in Canada that makes it, and there are probably some small specialty makers in the US, too. There's also some Korean and Chinese stuff coming into the market here.

Top brands are Mauviel and Bourgeat from France and Ruffoni from Italy. There are also very nice 'generic' products from France, Italy, Spain, and Portugal. Be quality conscious, but don't be brand snobbish. The fact is, copper is copper and tin is tin. While the Mauviel and Bourgeat may have an extra bit of tin as compared to the generic stuff, it is a difference with little practical impact. With reasonable care in use (which really means don't overheat these puppies), the generic will last for many, many years. Retinned, they'll be every bit the equal of the best name brands.

There are various weights and handle materials available. Some copper is as thin as 1.5 mm. 2.0 mm and 2.5 mm are good stuff. 3.0 mm and 3.5 mm are considered heavy and very heavy. Handles on the lighter stuff are most often made from a brass alloy (closer to bronze than brass and therefore less reactive than real, true brass). The heavy stuff has enameled cast iron handles and is, indeed, very heavy. VERY heavy.

For starters, I would suggest 2.5 mm pans with tin linings and brass handles. The heavy stuff can come later if you feel the need. It is best for long, slow cooking. It is so heavy, it is hard to shake or 'flip' a full pot one handed, even for me. Sparkly, literally, won't lift our heavies.

I'm kind of a purist, and find I simply don't like the stainless lined stuff, but will freely admit that could be pot snobbery (although a lot of chefs seem to agree with me). But since the stainless lined stuff is more expensive, I'll stick with the tinned stuff.

Here's a link to Fantes' site. They have a nice selection of copper, mostly by Mauviel.
http://fantes.com/copper_cookware.htm
I'd also suggest reading their site. It has a lot of good info on copper.

Here's another link to a different site that also has some excellent information for you to read.
http://www.buycoppercookware.com/index.cfm?act=care

Most of my copper came from Home Goods and Marshall's and at a big discount.

Another suggestion is to look for used stuff. Really. Copper cookware will easily outlive you and your kids ... and maybe your grandkids. It can also be almost totally renewed with new tin linings and having all the dents and dings knocked out, and then fully polished. The cost for retinning is between $3.50 and $4.00 per inch. Measure the diameter of the pot. Add twice the depth of the pot and you get the inches on which they will base the price. Fantes' site has retinning information.

If I've missed a copper topic you want to hear about, lemme know.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. WOW - thank you!
This is EXACTLY the kind of information I've been looking for. I'll digest this and may be back with follow-up questions.

Thanks so much for taking the time to do this!
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