Can we chat about ASAH?

[OneGrassRoot]

I've pondered and pondered how to write a brilliant post that wouldn't start any shit (see, that right there tells you I woefully failed ;)), and also struggled with the fact that I'm essentially a newbie to this forum, so is it even my place to start this conversation?

Plus, I can't begin to write the eloquent, soul-stirring posts some of you do when you're trying to share something powerful, something that has deep meaning for you. I pretty much write as if I'm speaking to you over coffee. :hi:

All that said, if anyone else is like me (and bless you if you are...lol...we Virgos can read more into things than need be), there is an elephant in the room and I really feel it needs addressed.

I'll start by asking you to read or revisit my "About Knowing" thread, as that lays the foundation for what I want to say:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=245x107274


Once you've read that, let's apply that question to a very specific thing that is pertinent to DU, and thus can obviously seep into ASAH: politics, politicians and even very specifically President Obama.

This has been an extra difficult week for many people, energy-wise. Really intense stuff. The word "betrayal" became a theme, not only in politics but in other parts of our lives. That word may merit a separate discussion on its own if anyone cares to dive in.

It's inevitable the energy "out there" - and even our own internal anger and frustration and life in general, not only politics -- will seep in here.

What do we do with that?

I'm writing this because I'm personally concerned about what I'm witnessing. I've only been at ASAH a fairly short period of time and missed a lot of previous comings and goings, but I'm witnessing one pattern and one perhaps fairly new development, and it's resulting in people wondering if they should remain at ASAH and interact. I can honestly say I have a tremendous affection and respect for all of you...all of you. Even those who aren't really "part" of ASAH yet pop in periodically (you know who you are! :hi:)

If this were a private board, I would refer to various situations; I'm not doing that only because I know there are pesky rules and don't want to cross any line in my attempt to spill my guts out here.

First and foremost, I think most of us absolutely, positively have RESPECT as one of our core ways of being in the world...we at least try to maintain a stance of respect in all we do. We're aware that we do best when we approach life with respect. :)

Yet we're also human. We get PISSED. Life happens and sometimes we can't rise "above" it to see it as some grand illusion, sometimes for whatever reason we WANT to dive into the nastiness and fight, fight, fight, because we know life SHOULDN'T BE THIS WAY!!! People are suffering...it's all so painful.

I've observed this dance in the lightworker community for about 20 years, and have evaluated my response to watching it and engaging it. Trying to understand (one of my weaknesses).

We may be ONE in the grandest sense of things, but we are all here with different personalities. VERY different personalities. What holds those of us at ASAH together is this focus on respect and love...we at least recognize the power in those ways of being.

Yet I believe we can express respect and love in different ways. Some of us are warriors; some are lightbearers, holding the space and radiating as much as possible; all of us are students in that we continue to learn about ourselves, about others, about this world around us, whether we actively seek it out any longer or not. ;)

As expressed in my "About Knowing" thread, we also have different perceptions about people and situations based on our own personal experiences. Karmic wounds have been mentioned before, and that's just one of many elements affecting how we respond to others and to the world.

Remember that other forum I told you about, with a soul group for over 10 years? 10 years ago they were active seekers and warriors; now they are lightbearers -- not that one is an evolution over another, btw, IMHO -- and they pretty much don't interact at all in the sense that we do here and they CERTAINLY shy away from intense topics of discussion such as politics. I'm odd man out. ;)

I personally see ASAH as a sanctuary and another school room for me. If I am angry and frustrated with the world, this is a touchstone.

Here is my very specific question to you guys about ASAH (well, okay, any time I try to get direct and ask one question, I'll forewarn you right now it means another unintentional ramble is coming):

How can we remain respectful, embody respect and love, and STILL interact about things we don't agree about? Issues we feel are so vitally important to humanity that, if someone sees it differently than we do, they are potentially causing others harm by not SEEING or DOING what we feel must be seen and done?

Remember, now, I'm pretty gray. I rarely see things as starkly black or white. I don't know if that's an empath thing or an age thing for me personally. I used to see the world in black or white and thought others who didn't see what I so OBVIOUSLY saw were apathetic and contributing to the world's problems.

There are definitely things I feel VERY strongly about, and in sticking with DU-type topics, the negative influence and manipulation of M$M is one of these issues.

As I'm typing this out, I just had a bit of an "aha" moment. I rarely (other than Dick Cheney) have anger toward a particular PERSON; my anger and frustration is often aimed at a system, a belief system such as evangelical religions, or an entity such as M$M. That's just me.

Some of you perhaps never trusted Obama and others have come to a conclusion this week that he is not trustworthy. He is a target -- perhaps rightfully so -- of much anger and frustration. I saw rightfully so if you are one who trusted him wholeheartedly and now feel betrayed (see, there's that word again).

I'm neutral about Obama as a person. I am very disappointed about MANY things, and I DO go out into DU and am active, because for the most part I am still a warrior. A sensitive warrior, but a warrior goddess nonetheless. ;)

I don't engage in the nastiness because that personally doesn't serve ME well; it makes me ineffective which means I eventually withdraw altogether. I know myself well enough by now to see this and I know my boundaries.

Perhaps most importantly, I still have HOPE.

Now, I'm going to be presumptuous and say that I would imagine those of you reading this are reacting by:

1. Being in general agreement about my assessment of being gray or neutral about Obama specifically, yet recognize the state of the world and feel anger/frustration. You are able to either detach or you can engage to some degree.

2. Being disappointed that I am not 100% confident in President Obama's path as being one to tremendously help shift things to a path of more integrity and light.

3. Being slightly (or very) disgusted that I don't see Obama as someone who has betrayed us and thus feel my way of seeing things and being in the world are contributing to the problems affecting humanity.


People, 3 and 4 are directly at odds with one another, and that's the elephant in the room. Whether it's about war or the many other things affecting humanity today, how we perceive things and choose to respond to them ARE opposing one another in many cases. They simply are.

We can pay lip service to "I respect your opinion" -- but do we really? Because I am more neutral, I can honestly say that I do. But I TOTALLY also respect the reality that, especially those who are angry and frustrated and feel betrayed, that is a much, much more difficult thing to ask of them.

How do we deal with this so those who view ASAH as a sanctuary can either stay here or come here (as I do) to "recharge" and ground that foundation of love and respect to embody elsewhere, as well as to provide that loving space to vent and be angry yet not have it become personal toward one another? AND, just as importantly, how can ASAH be a space for people to feel the freedom to be angry and frustrated here and not feel as though they're disturbing the vibe?

To me, it's when we are feeling angry and frustrated and down that we need one another the most.

Am I reading too much into this? Am I seeing and feeling things that aren't taking place here? If so, perhaps this post will drop like a rock. And that's fine. I do it out of genuine love and concern and wanting to be open and honest here as much as possible on a public board.

All I know is that if we can't do it here, in ASAH, it's going to be infinitely harder "out there." I want to learn how to do it here, so I may be more effective in my interactions with others and stay in my integrity.

We seem to be heading into a challenging time, whether we detach or engage, and I'd really like to feel a strong foundation here at ASAH and know others view it the same way.

Thanks for reading. Now, it's time to start my day. With much heartfelt gratitude, I wish you and yours are most blessed Saturday.


:grouphug:

[get the red out]

1. I totally get what you are saying

But then, I always do, LOL! I am not an ASAH oldtimer either, but this place has done me a world of good. I sense two things, one is that ASAH is one of the few places on the web where people would really, genuinely care that someone was frustrated and upset and leaving - so it gives meaning to such a statement and helps the person feel that they were heard in their frustration (which isn't a bad thing, really, people struggle to be heard and each person deserves it). And second, for me, it is always easier to show my frustration than to go the extra step and look inside to see what is disturbing me below the surface.

I really love this group, and see it as one of the few where people can discuss and not scream at DU. We are all struggling with betrayal right now and you summed it up very well. But perhaps it would be more constructive here at ASAH to see what holds us together as stronger than what we disagree on. If our disagreements did not involve a sense of betrayal on all sides I have no doubt we would do just that without even thinking about it.

I made a huge-giant vent post about what I now see as the problem in our society, and coming to the conclusion that we are all being horribly affected by media maddness has enabled me to calm down. I have felt a lot of betrayal myself, which I now see as more my reaction to media induced rage than anything. I finally came to this conclusion while watching my own reactions to the announcers while watching a basketball game, LOL; the announcers LOVED my team when they went on a big run, then LOVED the opposing team when THEY scored a bunch of points and I found myself going from LOVING to HATING the announcers all before the end of the first half. I finally thought, WTF was that???? It was an AH-HA moment for me. Total manipulation of my emotions, and I bought it completely, just like I had been in every game for YEARS.

My emotions are easily manipulated and when that happens I want someone to LISTEN TO ME. Not that I shouldn't have emotions, but I need to know that they are all MINE, and if they become extreme I need to do an immediate WTF and look at what I am thinking or responding too. I want my emotions but I want them to be from me.

ASAH is a beautiful place with wonderful people and something in my heart tells me that when people leave to sort things out for a time they are simply sorting and will arrive back at a place of peace for them. I KNOW I am a warrior type, and struggle to post in an ASAH-worthy way when I am upset (which is frequently, usually at groups like you mentioned OGR, people I am more able to see as suffering, groups are another matter for me). Learning to post in a more loving manner here has helped me tremendously. And like you, I now find myself to be of no use at all when I act in rage on the internet or anywhere else.

Love and light to all you guys, wish I was a light worker, but I am just learning about such things. People here are great.

[OneGrassRoot]

4. Dudette....

as I perceive lightworkers, you are most definitely one. You inject wisdom and humor, and my goodness, what a wonderful combination for a lightworker!

:hug:

[BanzaiBonnie]

8. What you said gtro

What a beautiful response to the post.


BTW, What does get the red out mean. If you want to share. Otherwise just ignore the question:silly:

[get the red out]

19. I live in a seriously red state that used to be Democratic

And I want to GET THE RED OUT!

[Kind of Blue]

2. Wow, OGR, what a brave thread to start.

I don't think I'm going to be much help though. Yes, I think there is an elephant in the room, but husband says I've got a good knack for compartmentalizing. So even if I've been snarked at by a member(s) of ASAH outside of the group -or any DUer for that matter - who feel politically different, I hold no grudge, especially WHEN in ASAH. Really, there are too many people on DU for me to remember who said what. And when I do remember who is on what side, ultimately that opinion - oppose or concur - has no impact on my life at that moment. I honestly think life is too fleeting to waste taking hard feelings from one place to another.

Right now, I'm really looking for hard facts/information "out there" on the HCR so I don't really feel qualified to argue. There are a few things that are my truths after researching pros/cons and meditating and I lend support to those I agree with, and refuse to snark if that will be my reply, Because I know we have varying personal investments on outcomes of issues dearest to our hearts. I will laugh though at how we characterize the other; from ponies to cheerleaders and contend only the other side name calls :rofl: :crazy:

I do appreciate it when an ASAH member comes back for sanctuary saying something like, "it's crazy out there," without the specific drama accompanying it because this should be a sanctuary. I think if you're really interested, PEM. Then again, I believe in compartmentlizing.

Ultimately, I think the verbal fisticuffs are a good thing. I'm coming from a background where I know of family members and others who've had relatives killed in the most inhumane fashion for speaking for or against a government. We've got a family friend, a really jolly fellow who you'd never know that his brother was disemboweled and his innards rammed down his throat as he died because he spoke out.

Who was it, Voltaire, I think, who said something like "I may not agree with you but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it," I guess is ultimately how I keep myself in check.

on edit: missed a word

[OneGrassRoot]

5. Thank you...

You bring a perspective many of us simply haven't experience in this lifetime, thank goodness.

:hug:

[BanzaiBonnie]

9. So, if there's an elephant in the room

does that mean that in GD or other political forums we feed the elephant and let the elephant play, here in ASAH we can let the elephant rest?

Someone's opinion on any particular subject is only that, no more no less, their opinion. It is not who they are. It is a part of their experience. Here we come together. I see it that we need all the parts to be whole.

[OneGrassRoot]

11. NL just posted her understanding of the original intent...

of this forum was to be a space where politics wouldn't be discussed (sorry if I misinterpreted that, NL). Yet it's inevitable that it creeps in, via channelings and such.

In theory, we can say we all have different opinions, it's part of the whole, and we can come together.

Yet I'm not as confident that we are living that. If our opinions of what is going on in the world and how to be most helpful "out there" greatly differ, it's easy -- depending on our personality type -- to get into negative interactions with people.

As this thread evolves, I'm seeing that I may be the only one who feels anything different needs to be done here and things will just move along as they're ultimately meant to, with people setting their own personal boundaries as to what is respectful and what isn't and remain or leave accordingly.

I guess the word "respect" has become subjective, too.

I don't know....

:hug:



Edit to make clear that I'm feeling there needs to be clarification of the intent of the forum and boundaries for how to be respectful within this space. ;)

But that's just me.

[BanzaiBonnie]

15. I must have missed something

But that's not surprising. I never did get some of the stuff that goes on between people. And I don't know if that's good or bad, seems it just is.

[Why Syzygy]

18. ASAH

was never designated as a politics free zone. Political issues have been discussed from the beginning. It is just that in the early days everyone at DU agreed on who the "enemy" was. The Bush Cabal et.al.

During the most recent primaries several of us begged not to bring that issue to ASAH. We lost. And members were lost due to the fallout. At the same time, strong bonds and friendships developed.

What you mention about channeled topics bringing politics here is most pertinent. That's how the primary battles were engaged; with astro readings and psychic revelations. If members post astro or channeled messages that lean one direction politically, it is not fair at all to expect other members not to contribute their own points of view. That would put us in a position of sitting in silence and acquiescence. There is a very human danger of using 'psychic' information in a manipulative manner. I don't expect anyone to sit silent on any issue I contribute. I would HATE that. I believe in freedom of thought and expression.

Sometimes it is in the best interest of a person who chooses to leave to do so. I know one case in particular when it was a very beneficial decision. Change is the only constant. We cannot hold onto a moment in time. You cannot stop the flow.

[Cleita]

23. I agree. If it wasn't about politics, I would be posting in a non-political, new age forum..

It is about politics and many have posted here, their insights and channellings about politics that can't be posted on the GD forums. The Matthew Messages, which many ASAH participants love are often very political in their message. Other than that, if we can't discuss these things here, where do we go?

[OneGrassRoot]

32. Hi :)

I'm certainly advocating for freedom of expression and opinion...about any subject matter...and I don't see how politics can be kept out of it since everything is morphing and changing so rapidly and it's all connected now more than ever.

I just hope we can all be respectful about it, but what I'm recognizing is that everyone's idea of "being respectful" is also very different because WE are so very different. :)

I grew up as the "sensitive one" in the family. I will take the path of least resistance to avoid conflict when I'm able -- and it's why I also focus so much on PREVENTING as much unnecessary ickiness and miscommunication as possible to begin with. That said, when necessary, I absolutely will join the battle and deal with what needs to be dealt with.

But it wears me out. That's because ofmy emotional makeup. Others thrive on conflict.

Yet once I've joined the battle, I have a hard time letting go of the anger and frustration, whereas those who butt heads rather easily with others, seem to let it roll of their back and it's as though nothing has happened! But I maintain that energetic baggage of the conflict.

That's my weirdness I continue to work with. ;)

It's why I want to create an online "widget" of sorts that is like a mood ring...you can say what your PEMS scale is for the day so others are aware...lol.

:hug:



It's my emotional makeup, my Virgo stuff, etc., that led me to start this thread. I recognize that.

:hug:

[Why Syzygy]

37. Are you a middle child?

As Celebration mentions from time to time, she is, and the "peace at any price" personality is something she attributes to birth order. There are many things that make us different from one another. That's one more. I was the oldest child, and if something went wrong, it was MY fault. I think I'm pretty much over that. I don't feel responsible for things that are out of my control any more. I'm still a problem solver, though; hoping to avoid problems from the start.

I have been thinking about that old adage that carries a similar meaning, "Peace at any Price". Personally, I am not willing to pay "any price", and I suspect people who think they are, aren't really willing to either when it comes right down to it. Perhaps they have in mind that others are the ones who should pay the price, not themselves. AND, the adage tells us right there that there IS a price to pay to maintain 100% peace 100% of the time.

Something that has been helpful for me, even though I'm not sure it applies here, is that "rules" are simply agreements between people to reach a common goal. Keyword, "common". If one party is not in agreement with the goal, the rules are not going to matter to them.

When I was a project manager, I had to get many different people to work together to achieve a certain outcome. I didn't assign the same tasks to the Warehouse Manger as I did the Engineering Department Manager. Each person has to be recognized for the part they play. Not everyone plays the same part. Yet they are all integral to the overall success of the project.

[OneGrassRoot]

39. Nope....eldest. :)

Though my mom was really like a child, too (she often would say I raised her. ;)) In that sense, perhaps I am the middle child, as there is only one younger sibling.

I don't resonate with "peace at any price." Not for me, personally. I do have to be pushed a bit further to get angry and react with hostility, or what others perceive as hostility. Then again, when I think I'm being UBER bitchy, others think I'm slightly irritable. :eyes:

Mark may be the one person who wouldn't agree with that. :rofl:

"If one party is not in agreement with the goal, the rules are not going to matter to them."

There...that's a key point. I'm trying to figure out what the goal of ASAH is for others.

But, that's not my place. It is what it is for each person, and that "is" may change from day to day, situation to situation.

Such is life.

;)


edit for typo

[Why Syzygy]

46. I guess

I don't understand the term, "path of least resistance to avoid conflict", then. What does it mean?

[OneGrassRoot]

50. It means I don't look forward to conflict....

and I have met people who very much seem to. They dive into conflict rather than take a less combative approach. I will go the extra mile to avoid conflict, but certainly not "at all costs."

:)

This is my first reading here this morning.

Good morning. :)

[Kind of Blue]

35. Well, I choose parts I think necessary for

wholeness and it's definitely not all or all at once. For me, there are plenty of other places on DU where the elephant can run amok :) I think the elephant can rest here and/or I'm not going to participate in it here, though others may choose to.

Yes, I agree with you about opinion, as I stated in my response to the OP - does nothing to impact my life.

[Celebration]

3. Are you wondering whether to start a thread about

Obama and something energetic, karmic, ASAH related? I would say go ahead and do it. I'm kind of neutral, too. I would do things differently, but none of us can expect our clone in the White House.

I wouldn't start a particularly political thread here--things discussed in GD or GDP, unless it is something very related to ASAH things, though.

Keep in mind that you are right, that just because this is ASAH, you can't count on this being ASAH and therefore everyone being calm and rational about political things.

:rofl:

PS. I'm gray, too, but not really "word" oriented, so I tend to distill things. I hope I got your meaning.

I've tested Obama many times and all his chakras are cleared. That's about all I have to add to the subject here.

[OneGrassRoot]

6. That's not really what I'm asking, but thank you...

for helping me clarify what I AM asking. ;)

ASAH does feel like it's at a crossroads to me, from my perspective.

What I want to know is others' thoughts on what they want ASAH to be for them, and knowing that the answer will differ from person to person -- as GTRO so wisely said -- how can we focus on what we DO have in common and move forward from there?

And, once we agree on what this space is to be -- how can it be a sanctuary for the different personality types given the shifting energies, how can we set boundaries to help us stay within a space of respect and integrity here amongst us?

I know we have forum guidelines, but the energies are shifting and it feels we need to re-evaluate where we are and how to proceed from here.

A clean slate and all, since there IS history here and maybe we don't want to bring that into the new year and this new time. A clean slate to create from.

:hug:

[Celebration]

22. Thanks for the clarification

I'm on the same page with NorthernLights about this. Everyone has different styles and different needs, and there are occasionally going to be some clashes.

We all need to remember.....

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Do not judge a person until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

etc., etc.

My two cents

a. save controversial subject matter for GD or GDP--
b. if something controversial IS posted, then just say you beg to differ, and wish that those things should be for GD or GDP.
c. when it is a new message that is channeled, and it says something like the Afghanistan war is great or something, well, that will cause some problems. So, think twice about posting about it.
d. personally, I don't mind a little controversy, unless it is all over the board. If it is in one thread, that doesn't bother me. But when people start new threads based on the same thing, that HIGHLY annoys me. I don't get highly annoyed often, but when I do, most people will know it.

So, please, everyone, if controversy erupts, let's try to keep it confined to one thread.

This may not be addressing your point, but that is how I feel about conflict here. It is inevitable, practically, but I think it can be limited.

[OneGrassRoot]

27. I like the one thread idea....

I've often wanted to ask there be one "bitch and moan" thread in GD where everyone can vent about whatever they want to vent about that day since most of the posts are just that, rather than containing actual information or something to inspire action.

:thumbsup:

[Delphinus]

38. I guess I've been a bit absent lately,

so am catching up on this thread and the other one you linked to (both are quite involved and bring up many points to ponder), but isn't the Lounge kind of a "bitch and moan" place? I don't go there often, so I might be wrong in my thinking.

[OneGrassRoot]

40. Good point. Maybe that's why I never go to the lounge...lol

In truth, I'm not THAT familiar with DU. Something I'm just learning in the last few days. ;) Shoot, there are forums and features I wasn't even aware of before.

I thought the lounge was for non-political posts, including bitching and moaning. For the venting involving politics, it seems to me most of the threads at GD and GDP of late could be combined into one thread to give everyone a voice without overwhelming the posts of an information or truly interactive nature. I'm not taking away the value of venting and expressing anger and frustration; it's just so darn easy for that to overwhelm and take over. I wish joy were as infectious -- and long lasting -- as anger and fear.

I wouldn't anticipate there being a daily B&M thread here...LOL. In fact, I would think that would be rare, but when something occurs, I see Celebration's point of perhaps confining them in one thread so the energy doesn't unnecessarily bleed into other threads.

Nice to "see" you! :)

:hug:

[BanzaiBonnie]

7. While being one of the "shades of gray" type persons

I also wish to respect those who hold stronger opinions. And there are some places I hold strong opinions.

It seems a delicate place to be. All I can personally do is let the other person know that I understand their feelings. Confirmation seems the best thing to do since I can't "solve" anything for them. I can only assure them of the validity of their viewpoint.

And many of you will remember of my attempts to "love Cheney".

I'm still working on it. The man embodies such a lot of dark elements, he's quite a subject. And when I love and then forgive the Cheney in him and when I love and forgive the Cheney in me --- who am I really working on? Yeah, it's all about me. That's the only place I can make any real change.

And I am getting somewhere with this.


Thank you OGR for the brilliant questions. We should always be free to question how we're doing.

[Cleita]

24. I don't think any of us think any less of you for wanting to love Cheney,

It's the path to follow that is true for you, but I for one can't. It takes all my energy just to keep from hating him and wishing him harm. I have to work very hard at this. I hope others respect my decision about this too.

[northernlights]

10. a little about the elephant

It's my understanding -- and this could be misconstrued / misremembered so feel free to correct me -- that when ASAH was first started there was agreement among the original members to keep politics out of it. Of course, on a political board that seems like a tall order, but with the rest of DU focussed on politics it may have seemed do-able.

I think what happens is that when channelings are posted that discuss Obama and politics, some see it as a way to interject their politics, or believe others posted or are using the channeling as a way to inject politics into ASAH. And then the fights begin.

The fact is that DU is a public forum, and therefore anybody can join and as long as they follow DU rules, they can stay. It's one thing to maintain a chosen set of rules and norms when a group is small and fairly 'steady-state.' But when one is not small and membership cannot be controlled or limited, then maintaining norms becomes more difficult. Different members have different stakes -- for one it may be professional, another very personal, a third an internal need to feel 'in charge and in control,' and a fourth may just decide it's just not worth the effort any more.

So I'm not sure there is a way to start with a 'clean slate.' Long-term members / founders feel an ownership of ASAH. They invested themselves in it to one degree or another, and now may feel a loss of control or inability to enforce the original norms. Newcomers aren't familiar with the original situ and may get suckered into taking sides in threads or via pm, or just be watching and wondering :wtf:

The fact is, nobody can really own a public forum, except the forum owners. The only suggestion I have is that everybody try to remember tahat we are all strangers. Most have not met f2f, have never spoken with each other, may have exchanged a couple PMs or joined in some threads. So the potential for misunderstanding is great. And it is, after all, just an internet forum.

[OneGrassRoot]

12. Thanks for that insight, NL...

as to original intent and your other thoughts. That's actually very helpful to be aware of.

I've found myself in the :wtf: camp a few times and, I must admit, it bugs me.

The one thing I see differently is that, to me, this isn't just an internet forum. I hear you, and it is important to keep the anonymity aspect and public aspect in mind as we interact in any online forum. It IS different.

Yet my personal experience is that the vast majority of people I am closest to -- and have met in "real life" and interact with daily, on the phone or face to face -- are people I've met at boards just like this.

There is a much deeper level for me; I know that isn't the case for everyone, but that's how my experience has played out, and I'm SO grateful. :)

There is a soul-level connection (actually, I feel it's most definitely a re-connection ;)) via spaces such as ASAH. I guess that's why I am more protective (?) of those connections and interactions and want us all to be as open as possible, with the caveat that it IS a public forum.

LOL...I'm even losing sight of my original intent in posting, so that's a sign to go take a break and get things done. ;)

I hope you're feeling better these days.

Sending warm :hug: your way!

[northernlights]

13. warm hugs especially appreciated

on yet another frigid day after a night near 0. :scared:

Just to clarify, by "just an internet forum" I don't mean that it's not different from general internet forums or not a place that is and can be special.

What I do mean is that internet discussions are just that, no more nor less, and many of them with virtual strangers. They are not life and death. Marriages, partnerships, livelihoods, etc. are not at stake in here. To my knowledge, none of us actually has direct influence over international policy, although we all can share in sending light to those who do in hoping that they will see and follow the light.

On there other hand, there is huge potential for misunderstanding, miscommunication, misreading, etc. Almost as much as with psychic impressions or channeling. :D

[OneGrassRoot]

30. I understand, NL :)

The potential for misunderstanding, miscommunication, misreading, etc., is high given our various perspectives and perceptions, as well as our mood for that particular moment in time when we're reading something. That's true anywhere, as you said.

More warm hugs for you!!!

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[northernlights]

41. I remembered the elephant backwards, but the principle remains the same

I found the old series of PMs that came to me, actually from a variety of posters. The question of politics within this forum was during the primaries and some people fought against it, but "lost out." Some people continue to fight it to this day, acting out when discussions of Obama come up in channels.

But that only underscores my point that it is very difficult to establish norms on an open forum.

:hugs: back at ya!

[wovenpaint]

51. I concur, NL

I, too, remember an "agreement" to keep ASAH as a sanctuary from the political frey, per se.
Your post has articulated much of what I've been thinking about as I ponder this thread-thanks for writing it!
:toast:
For myself, this forum a very large-and public-evolving "journey", comprised of interesting personalities and ideas that I enjoy flowing with.

[Fire Walk With Me]

14. Detach.

[OneGrassRoot]

28. ...

:hug:

;)

[Kind of Blue]

45. +1

:thumbsup:

[Desertrose]

16. FWIW.....

This forum was originally started to have a peaceful and "private" place to discuss spiritual and metaphysical matters due to some very nasty "wars" going on in various parts of DU between the spiritual folks and the non-spiritual ones.

There was once a really cool place called the Meeting Room (sort of Lounge Lite)...until the battles began. At that point Skinner et al had been thinking of adding some separate forums/interest groups and let DU members petition for what we wanted by getting enough people to sign on. And so ASAH was born...but not with out a LOT of *discussion* about what we wanted to be able to include in this place. There were some major divisions and anger and some good people left because of it....but what is really amazing to me is how this place has continued and grown.

We never really discussed politics in here much because, heck, who wanted to talk any more about Bush & Cheney for 8 years. There were so many better forums for that. We were simply relieved not to be stalked and harassed by a small group who enjoyed derailing and ridiculing the poor stupid "woo woo believers"and try to set us straight (straight to their way of seeing the world). So for the first few years, we seemed to have enough other things to share & discuss without getting particularly political.

But times have changed....and are changing ever faster. Wish I had an answer to your question OGR.....this is a new problem or maybe just an old one revisited. When you care, its hard not to be passionate about what you care about....can we be passionate and still respect others passion if it differs from ours? Perhaps as long as it doesn't take over the forum this may be is the perfect place to work this out...

Just an oldtimer here (& one who helped start this forum) sharing a bit of history with ya'll.
:grouphug:

Carry on. :)

DR

[OneGrassRoot]

29. There's so much history involved...

I had no idea you've been here pretty much since the inception of DU, Desertrose!!!

That's a huge WOW!!! Thank you for sharing that history about how ASAH was born.

Thank you for still being here.

I agree with what you said. I think what I feel most strongly about is that this space is where we can work through things. We can all learn so very much in the process, even if we're detached observers of and don't necessarily engage, which I think is what happens here more often than not.

:hug:

:grouphug:

[Fire Walk With Me]

67. Within the next couple of years, they're going to find out that the "woo woo"ers were right.

:hi:

[LaurenG]

17. Hi everyone - can I add a cent or two?

I know of at least two times that this board has cracked, sifted members and re-made itself. This forum will be fine again.
Members come and go as life circumstances/opinions and beliefs change. There are those who feel they are never wrong, those who never feel right and those in between.

I was involved in the last big shake-up and feel sad that it's still an issue after all these months, especially since it was between only PC and myself initially. My heart was absolutely broken by things that were said to me, I tried very hard not to ever say a word, but my emotions got the best of me and I told one person what had happened. That was my mistake and my fault and I wish that I never said a word as it forced a veiled confrontation and innocent people were hurt, many who still don't know anything about it.
With that said there are always two sides to a story and because we all have issues the story is always blurred when looking at only one side. We all need to take responsibility for changing and improving ourselves and we have all betrayed and been betrayed by someone.

The issue is why are we betraying others or allowing that to happen to us?

It's time for self acceptance to take center stage and time to be identified with what is good in ourselves and by doing that identify what is good in others. No one can ever survive on a pedestal since there is nowhere to go but down so trying to be perfect doesn't work.

We all have qualities that are worthy and there is no reason for self loathing and in turn loathing others anymore.

Maybe just let it go, it really does start with us.

:big hugs to you all:

[Celebration]

21. LaurenG!!

So glad to see you here~~~

No need to be sad about anything.

Happy Holidays!

:hug:

[Cleita]

25. Welcome back LaurenG.

A big :hug: for you.

[OneGrassRoot]

31. Thank you...

so very, very much for stepping back in to share that.

"Members come and go as life circumstances/opinions and beliefs change."

That's so true and something for me to remember as I practice compassionate detachment. Well said.

:hug:

:grouphug:

[Kind of Blue]

36. LaurenG!

:hug:

[northernlights]

43. unless you held a gun to somebody's head, you didn't force anything

We're adults here, and if somebody chose a veiled confrontation...that was their choice, not yours. You made a normal "mistake" that shouldn't have been a mistake...you confided in somebody who betrayed that confidence.

As you said, we've all done it and been there at one time or another.

[Why Syzygy]

47. No one betrayed her confidence.

Nothing was said or done without her consent and foreknowledge.

[LaurenG]

48. Syz, I don't understand why you are taking this personally...just breathe

I'm not blaming you for anything. This was about what I did, not you, in fact it has very little to do with you as far as I know.

I'm not interested in hurting you or anyone else, should you feel hurt or wronged I am sorry. Again, this is NOT about you unless you want to take insult in my comment that we all have clay feet. I take full responsibility for my actions, feelings, and thoughts. I hold no ill will toward anyone at all. I wish you the best in everything you do.

[southerncrone]

20. From my humble viewpoint

the answer to your question:
How can we remain respectful, embody respect and love, and STILL interact about things we don't agree about?

is by choosing to do so!

We all have the capacity to make our individual choices. Having respect & love for others is simply a choice we make. We may disagree with one another on a particular topic, but we have the capacity through our choice to so with respect & love.

In a forum such as ASAH, I believe we should expect nothing less than our interactions be done with R&L (respect & love). After all, that is the premise of this forum. Otherwise, we are being disrespectful to ourselves & others. IMHO, spirituality automatically involves respect & love. Those should be over-riding elements of ALL discussions here.

I vow to interact here with those ideals in mind.

[OneGrassRoot]

33. I join you....

and you remind me to continue to make choices based on love, not fear.

:hug: :hug: :hug:


:grouphug:

[rosesaylavee]

49. Great point!

Thank you for saying it. Our covenant at our UU church includes wording to the effect that we associate together - NOT because we are agreeing in opinion as no one of us has a corner on Truth or even truth - but because we do share common goals to help each other in our search for that Truth/truth. I've seen people literally bite back what you know they want to say because we have made this promise to each other. It's not a 100 percent effective and we of course, like any other human group lose people from time to time... but it certainly helps as a basic guideline.

[MorningGlow]

26. Been reflecting on this for a while

and I think I know what I think. :)

I'd say that there's no way to completely prevent controversial subjects from being brought up in ASAH, especially the political ones, for obvious reasons. But like others have said on this thread, the best way to prevent blowups is to maintain the highest level of respect possible at all times. Just as we can't change the way other people behave and think IRL, and the only thing we can do is change the way we react to each situation, we have to do the same here.

While ASAH is one of the most polite--if not THE most polite--area of DU, we're all gonna blow sometime, over something, especially as the energy gets more frenetic in the next couple of years. But we don't have to all descend into chaos when that happens. If somebody goes off, it's up to the rest of us to calm it down instead of feed the fire. And I think ASAHers are really good at that already. Now we just have to be mindful of it. And of course if at any time we feel that we can't participate without arguing, we have to recognize that and detach from that particular situation.

Hey, we're all grownups--and enlightened beings ;) --we should be able to behave ourselves, right?

As for people who choose to leave...that breaks my heart. I don't think anyone should feel that their only recourse is to completely leave the group. I hope that anyone who feels put upon would consider taking a break instead of departing forever, because we need all the bright lights we can get, and every ASAHer is highly valued and an important part of the group.

Thanks for bringing this up, OGR. It's great to know that we can discuss how to handle problems as they come up.
:grouphug:

[OneGrassRoot]

34. Now, see, you're one of those who can say it much better than I....

So, you have summed it up rather nicely, saying how I feel, at the end of the day:

"If somebody goes off, it's up to the rest of us to calm it down instead of feed the fire. And I think ASAHers are really good at that already. Now we just have to be mindful of it. And of course if at any time we feel that we can't participate without arguing, we have to recognize that and detach from that particular situation."

and

"I hope that anyone who feels put upon would consider taking a break instead of departing forever, because we need all the bright lights we can get, and every ASAHer is highly valued and an important part of the group."


After all, we do evolve, have different moods for different reasons, and thus react differently one week than we may the next. Stepping back is always a helpful thing if something is important to us.

Thanks. :hug:

:grouphug:

[Grateful for Hope]

42. Good points, MG

I really like what you had to say.

One point about this:

If somebody goes off, it's up to the rest of us to calm it down instead of feed the fire. And I think ASAHers are really good at that already. Now we just have to be mindful of it. And of course if at any time we feel that we can't participate without arguing, we have to recognize that and detach from that particular situation.

I think your point is excellent about not feeding into dissension when it occurs, but, it is also important, IMO, to realize that such behavior is mainly the responsibility of the poster who "goes off". I strongly suggest using the tools of DU, including the alert function, in such cases.

:hi:

[BlueIris]

44. That's pretty much my take on it.

If you can't disagree with someone in a civil manner, maybe you shouldn't post. I'm not always that great at sticking to that strategy, but I try to be on my best behavior in here.

As for the heart breakage for the people who left...meh. I understand why they bailed. I wish that the emerging community (here and elsewhere) had not chosen to politicize its spiritual perspectives last year, and I really, really wish some of its more famous figures hadn't chosen to take the extreme positions they did. For the record, it was the extremity of the positions taken (and the extreme nature of the behavior of many spiritualists during that godawful Year of the Rat) that turned me off. Those who had to leave, well, I understand where they are coming from.

In the future, I hope we can all be more polite to and accepting of each other, particularly as the political and social situation in this country worsens.

[northernlights]

52. I agree totally that respect is the core of the issue

And it merits further discussion, because like so many other words it can have many meanings to many people. And I think it's also helpful to point out what we find disrespectful.

To me, part of respect includes:

* recognizing that everybody here has a right to be where they are. Some people may be in "follow the leader" mode. They have a full right to be in that mode and to choose who they follow. You or I may not agree with it, we may be concerned or disagree with who they choose to follow -- but they have a right to be there.

* that doesn't mean concerns about what someone else posts aren't legitimate. So if someone disagrees with something, it's fine to openly state you disagree, and explain why....while sticking to facts.

*that doesn't mean disagreement with various channels and predictions aren't legitimate. So if someone disagrees with a prediction, it's fine to state it doesn't resonate and say why not. We are all seeing/feeling/perceiving through our own filters, including channels, psychics, empaths, whoever...

* just because somebody is in a different mode that you or I am in doesn't mean they are either "behind" or "ahead" of us on the growth path. I view the path as a spiral -- you may look over and see somebody that appears "behind" you. But the fact is, you just don't know where they are. And either way, they have a right to be there. One can politely point out a roadblock you think is ahead of them -- it's the others perogative to heed or ignore your advice,which may or may not be pertinent.

To me, part of disrespect includes:

* sabotaging threads by hijacking them
* making personal attacks
* taking personal attacks to PM
* using PM to spread gossip
* feigning friendship with people in order to suck them into your personal battles
* trying to control what is allowed or not on allowed here by using the above tactics.

I have had multiple people contact me via PM in the past to warn me about various other posters.

I have said in the past, and I will say it here again, that I allow people to be who they are. I choose who I allow into my personal space (and thank DU for blocking). As an example, some of the people who have posted warnings about others have gone on to exhibit much of the behavior they warned about.

Other people's warnings have matched my experience. Those people have continued to behave in respectful ways and are welcome in my private space any time.

The former are not welcome in my private space, and if they think that they can use their "friends" to forward their agenda in my private space, they are mistaken. As I have said before, I allow people to be who they are. Inevitably they reveal hidden agendas.

[Kind of Blue]

53. Spiral analogy = Brilliant!

:thumbsup: Very inclusive and an equalizer.

[OneGrassRoot]

54. We do love those spirals. :) (another ramble inside)

:hi:


Hey, NL. I see you took it to the next step, recognizing that people view "respect" according to their own prism. That's the type of discussion I was wondering about, if it would be of interest or necessary. :)

Since I started this thread, I want to be responsible for it and own that it may open discussions I didn't anticipate. And that's the way the ball bounces in a public forum. ;) No, no...I'm definitely not saying anyone is hijacking anything here at all. In fact, if something of an interpersonal nature has a chance of being healed, perhaps this is the thread to do so.

What I want to say once again -- and this is not directed toward you, NL, nor in response to what you wrote but in general about this thread -- is that I started this with the intention of seeing if we could refocus on respect -- get clear about it and what we want ASAH to be for us as individuals -- recognizing that big issues (including politics) were entering into the mix of discussions and how can we move forward genuinely and authentically when we disagree about big issues of life.

It's my nature to try to look ahead and prevent conflict before it increases or has a chance to take hold -- trust me, I also recognize my being that way results in a "mind your own business" response from others, too. lol. That's cool.

Beyond the elephant of which I was referring to in the OP (discussing big issues or not, including topics of politics and Obama, respectfully), there is the other obvious elephant concerning interpersonal problems between ASAH members. That elephant is standing up in this thread.

Again, this isn't aimed at anyone -- 'cause I honestly don't even know who all is affected by it, so I ask that no one read the following and assume I'm speaking of them. Sure I know who some of the parties involved are, but I don't know the details and don't want to. It's a general observation about the undercurrent of "ickiness" (don'tcha love my big words?) and tension that tends to take hold and results in me not wanting to read or post because I just don't know where the shit will rise from unexpectedly.

I know, I know, that's my problem if I respond that way, but I have a feeling I'm not alone.

That's why many of us don't post at GD or GDP -- the most benign threads are taken over with personal battles that many of us don't have a clue about, but we surely feel the tension.

I don't know how many others are here who also didn't witness previous rifts and squabbles (I wasn't interacting here during the primaries, for example), or who have blocked them out or stayed detached to the point that we don't know the ins and outs of the "battles." I have largely stayed out of these discussions, even as they have been hinted at in other threads, because I just don't have a dog in this fight, to be blunt. And, I don't understand, nor do I want to, but that's because I don't have a dog in the fight. I DO respect and recognize that the parties involved feel very deeply about what has occurred.

I just don't know what to personally do about that. And I know it isn't my place to DO anything about that or anything else, but I care about ASAH. And I'm a Virgo, so 'nuf said. ;)

What I AM hoping is that this very big elephant of personal bad feelings between members -- it wasn't the one I was referring to in the OP, but it is definitely there, we all know it -- can be healed in some way so the group as a whole can move forward.

I'm not trying to save anyone or anything. We're all responding and interacting and making choices as adults. We choose to be here, or we don't. I get that.

But if it's possible to move through the PAST stuff, which is affecting the present, here in this thread -- adhering to DU rules -- I think that may be a wise way to go. Confine it -- it gets less confusing that way; confine it here. Work to heal it or try to let it go as far as personal hurt so it doesn't continue to infect and affect others trying to come together.

When new shit arises, so be it. We'll deal with it as it occurs, as adults gathered with a common purpose, and I honestly think it is inevitable given the general unrest out there. I have faith we can deal with that type of discontent, as it's something that affects all of us and we can interact openly and respectfully about it.

But for past interpersonal stuff to continue to crop up -- a past that intrudes with all this "veiled" talk -- seems useless.

I'm not a psychiatrist and I know that stuff is much easier said than done. I'm asking out of selfishness (I appreciate this sanctuary) and out of genuine concern for ASAH and Her members.

So, if those involved with this past rift are led to work through this publicly -- so the issue of PMs don't become a weapon to use in the future -- I respectfully ask that we check ourselves and make sure our intent is to heal, with love, rather than interjecting out of a sense of anger, resentment or fear.

If we're angry, we often can't help being angry; but we can choose how we respond and express it, and paying attention to what we hope the goal of expressing that anger really is. Is it to heal or lash out? Love or fear?

That seems to be what we're working toward here more and more, as it's echoed nearly daily by someone: Move forward making choices of love, not fear. And sometimes we come here to ASAH to learn how on Earth to DO that!

Thanks for reading.

:grouphug:

[LaurenG]

55. So this is obviously about much more than the problem

I was involved in because I don't know what you're talking about and I will stay out of whatever else is happening.
Since I have been away I have spoken to no one from here except a hello email from a couple of people.

I have been enjoying playing Farmville, Yoville, Farmtown and Mafia Wars. I think I'll leave the conversation alone and unless anyone needs me I'll be over there playing.

Best to you all.

Lauren

[northernlights]

56. the issue is about respect and control

(self-control versus control of others) and people attacking others on the board -- either publicly or in PM, or some combination, with unfounded accusations and insinuations -- instead of sticking to issues and facts...or honestly dealing with feelings. I can understand why some people's feelings run very high around certain issues. But attacking the others, trying to pick fights, accusing them of things they absolutely are not doing does not change anybody's minds.

Lauren, some of the people under your situation fall under the overall issue, in that the board was used to advance personal agendas / control of the board in multiple ways, some of which strike me as patently disrespectful and unfair to all, whether they were directly involved or not.

[LaurenG]

57. Well I did receive a few pms accusing me of doing things I wasn't aware of.

I just blew them off because I don't know what the person is talking about and asked her not to write to me anymore. I have barely even read this forum for months and no one other than the person sending pm's has contacted me for months. I have been blissfully unaware of trouble until a few days ago when I decided to come by and found my name mentioned so I thought the whole thing had re-opened and I needed to apologize again and make it plain that I am not upset with PC. I don't know what's going on with PC or anyone else here, as I stated above I stick to my two farms, my house in the city, (Yoville) and play mafia wars with my husband.

I'm glad that the board wasn't rocking over what I did in the past and I hope the members here can help to moderate the board to a better place.

On edit: Fixed the above statement and I wanted to say I think bringing the problems out in the open may help to clear this up. I was accused last night while I was sleeping, via pm, of "setting *pm'er* up" and I have no idea what that is about but maybe some of you will.

[northernlights]

59. wow...so sorry that you are being accused via PM

no, the board isn't being rocked by anything you did in the past, but what others did/are doing, so thank you for sharing that. I don't know who pm'd you, and don't even want to know. :shrug:

So please feel free to go back to your blissful unawareness. I think what this will work out to be is a re-examination and recommitment of various participants here to what this board can be about. And that will be a good thing.

[I Have A Dream]

60. I just want to make it really clear that it was NOT me.

I wish LaurenG nothing but happiness and peace.

[northernlights]

61. holy moly you were the LAST PERSON I ever would have thought

seriously IHAD...I'm so sorry it even crossed your mind that anybody would suspect you of such a thing. :hug: :hug: :hug:

[I Have A Dream]

65. ...

:hug:

[LaurenG]

63. Oh IHAD - I'm sorry that you even had to post that.

It was absolutely not you. I don't think anyone here would think that you and I have a problem and if they do it would make me wonder why. As I said I have little to no idea what has been going on here either under the radar or out in the open.
With that said, since there is still a chance that this group can work this out, I will not state to anyone who it was. I don't think there is anything to gain by inflicting more hurt, pain or blame on anyone anymore.

I am hopeful that the issues will be resolved quickly.

[I Have A Dream]

64. I don't think that anyone would necessarily think it, Lauren, but...

there are so many things flying around, I wanted to make it absolutely clear.

:hug:

[northernlights]

58. exactly (and we do love prisms, too, don't we...lol)

:hi: I wasn't here for the primaries either, and have no personal stake other than hoping that the board can be a place where we can come to respectully share ideas, experience, knowledge, understanding, etc.

I have been exposed third-hand after the fact to the past events, and "ickiness" is the perfect word for it. In fact, I think one person who contacted me actually used that word...of feeling "used and kind of icky" or something very close to that. Certainly that described the aftertaste I was left with :shrug:.

And yes, the people who were directly involved need to either deal with their feelings about it openly, or if they feel that dealing with feelings openly makes them weak and vulnerable to attack, at least deal with their feelings in private and simply skip the posts that involve people or topics they disapprove of. Deal with or let it go. Or deal with it so they can let it go. And if they aren't ready to deal with it, there is always that elite little group selected via the "ignore" button. :D

[Lindsey]

62. I find this forum as a safe haven. The only other forums I normally

go to are Obama Supporters group and the Lounge. I remember the meeting room. It was great but It think this is even better. And I remember Desert Rose was one of the folks behind getting this one started. As far as your post goes, I hear what you're saying and am glad you posted :-)

[NuttyFluffers]

66. lots of words for easy answer. R-E-S-P-E-C-T. also means Trust, Honesty, Apologies, & Forgiveness

just like all the same stuff you use in all your other long term relationships.

you trust others, be honest in your dealings, have mutual respect. and because we're all human we all fail. go ahead and blow up, throw crockery and shoes, scream and yell, get it all out. then come back and apologize. and let the responsibility and process of forgiveness of others take their course (or not).

remember, we cannot control others, but we can control ourselves. BUT controlling ourselves every moment of our life, w/o allowance of failure or off-color flubs, leads to neuroses which will manifest anyway, often in ways we do not like and cannot control.

go ahead, be free, be patient with others, expect mutual respect and understanding, let the stick up the ass be whipped out and waved around like a truncheon, and once the crazy moment passed, put it back in and let us all cough demurely in our sleeves, sip our high tea, and chide knowingly that it was just time to play the fool -- the role we'll all one day play.
;)

:hi: