Saturn in Leo........begins in July 2005

[Dover]

Well here are some thoughts about the implications of this combination. Feel free to add your own to the list.

Pride goeth before the Lion's fall...

Leo rules the 5th House in astrology...children, self expression, romantic love, gambling....among other things. All of these things will feel the gravity of Saturn.

We've already gotten some indications that "Hollywood types" are on the outs...ridiculed by the GOP for their lavish self indulgence and self important views, and more recently by the DNC leadership who seems to be anxious to distance itself from association with them. So expect more scapegoating along those lines. And nothing is more terrifying to a Leo than the possibility that they are no longer important, attractive, needed, sought after, commercially viable and lovable.

I think the arts and all forms of self expression will be curtailed or censored in some way...or at least will be threatened...and the NEA may become the first casualty, along with civil rights.
Old creative techniques or old masters work may have a bit of a renaissance in popularity. Conservative styles may also become popular. Creative types may also experience the equivalent of writer's block...as the easy flow of self expression seems to dry up.
Romance novels will seem passe...and any kind of romantic thoughts and visions will likely seem more of an indulgence that one can't afford in a 'reality t.v.' culture.

Gold, which grew in value under Jupiters passage through Leo may now take a plunge and/or become restricted.

Physically Leo rules the heart...so expect heartache and heart attacks to be more prominent. Life may even seem "heartless".
Affairs of the heart will be center stage.


Unresolved issues about SELF love will be in the lesson plan as those that rely too heavily on outer sources to make them feel loved and valued in the world will find it in short supply. If that lesson is grasped and one is able to tap into that inner source, then he/she will likely never lose it. This is the source of unfiltered Joy and the purest expressions of the heart that Leo represents.

Short of such revelations...nightmares about being 'naked' in public might become too real for some. We are NOT what we do. But we often don't learn that until all our props are taken away and we see how we are a bottomless pit of deep insecurity that can't possibly be filled from without by the adoration of others, titles, awards or wealth.

Self aggrandizement, megalomania, loyalty, honesty and all Leo characteristics might become exagerated...to the point of being oppressive. Hitler had Saturn in Leo on the Midheaven. Petty tyrants are, at their core, desperately in need of feeling important, loved and admired. On the other hand, both Clinton and Gore have this natal combination...and while there is likely a certain need for public admiration and validation by many who seek powerful positions, the results are not necessarily characteristic of tyrants.

Bill Clinton didn't have an issue with self expression because of the reception from the Sun in Leo and a very powerful Venus in Libra rising. Gore is said to come acoss as "stiff and wooden". Hitler simply defined himself as the state of Germany ignoring the conflict between Saturnian issues and individuality.-- Robert Hand

In a diurnal chart, the heat diminishes the malefic qualities of Saturn. This individual has a clearer sense of identity and purpose because the agnoia is lessened. In some cases they aspire to political office and they generally make good executives. Leadership ability is present, but they often suffer from great opposition. This opposition usually takes the form of others pointing out character flaws and accusing the native of a lack of integrity. In this case, the native must learn the lesson of humility. (from http://www.horoscope-x-files.com/horoscope/leo-saturn.htm)

The antidote for Saturn in Leo is to find, feel and express naturally the Joy in life, in every moment, within ourselves and in the world.

Leo in Saturn...coming to a theatre near you in July.

_____________


IS THIS YOUR SECOND SATURN RETURN?
If you were born in 1947 or 1948, your second Saturn Return in Leo is coming up ... just like the countries of India, Pakistan, Israel and Palestine.


The charts of these countries are here - http://www.bemyastrologer.com/saturnreturnbulletinleo.html

________________


Some Leo key words:


Loyal
Confident
Respectful
Idealistic
Trusting
Creative
Proud
Generous
Good with children
Determined
A natural performer
Self-centered
Egotistical
False bravado
Seeks approval from the outside
Perfectionistic
Judgemental
Over-idealistic
Naïve

[Pallas180]

1. Gold, yep, my thought too.

"Gold, which grew in value under Jupiters passage through Leo may now take a plunge and/or become restricted."

[Dover]

6. Yes....but it might also be the perfect time to BUY!

n/t

[jrthin]

35. Pallas, nice to see you.

A poster over at AW missed you, as do I and I'm sure the other posters.

[Dover]

36. I miss Pallas too. Hasn't been around much. This post of hers is

from DECEMBER though, so not too sure she'll see your post.

[Pallas180]

52. Saturn is going into Leo on July 16 - besides gold, it

might mean a lack of creativity (makes you think of the complaints that Hollywood is churning out repeats of old movies) and
maybe it could mean a lack of leadership.

[hippiechick]

2. Question ?

I'm 100% neophyte at this, but Nancy's post in this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=245&topic_id=1672&mesg_id=1889&page=

caught my eye.

Could Saturn moving into Leo mean that the burden or responsibility to be the carrier of 'the message'(ie, Michael Moore-type documentaries about the Administration's lies and crimes) falls on the 'Hollywood types' because the regular media & the people who are supposed to represent us won't ?


Thanks!


:hippie:

[Dover]

4. Yes....Saturn will put them to the test. Some will rise to the occassion

and some will fall under the pressures. Our ability and right to express who we are will be under fire.

Consider the very public humiliation and power struggle that Clinton had to endure...or Gore. Both have Saturn in Leo. (and Leo rules the heart/Saturn rules restriction and blockage...and we know that Bill had difficulties with that as well).

The Saturn in Leo type can be either the victim or the perpetrator of tyranical energies...both a test and a measure of leadership and inner reserves of strength, courage and self love. Not everyone with this combo will have such a heavy and public battle, but even though the scale and intensity of situations will differ, it's usually about the same issues.

[linazelle]

19. I think that the acquisitions of entertainment media by conservatives

has a place here. They are pretty much setting the stage for limiting, to a much greater extent, the type of entertainment available to the public and controlling who will be seen based on their politics. I think we'll hear a lot more about the struggles of getting nonconservative movies, documentaries and actors in the spotlight.

[Dover]

21. Good point. And possibly more mergers? The ruling on media consolidation

is still hanging in the balance (and will likely continue to be used by the Bushies as leverage).

[Eurobabe]

3. oh boy, so what does this mean for us Leonine types?

I have Leo on the 11th house. Sun, Venus conjunct Uranus in Leo in the 11th.

[Dover]

5. Hard to say exactly without knowledge of the entire chart to see how

these planets are aspected. But you may find yourself feeling less interested in social activities...feeling a desire to withdraw. Friendships may be put to the test or perhaps a recognition that your life is sorely lacking in good friendships. In examining that, perhaps you will have to look at how you have helped to create whatever your situation is. Maybe issues will arise with a group and their goals that will bring up personal issues around leadership or self expression within the group. For instance you might discover that with these social relationships part of the problem is your own neediness for attention, or to shine at the expense of others. Or perhaps you'll find yourself jealous and angry at others who play that role out. Or maybe you've been too shy to express yourself within a group and you'll be challenged to come out and more fully express yourself publically or within a group...to find your voice.
The important thing to remember is that you are learning about yourself through these encounters.
You also may feel a deep dissatisfaction with your current goals but not yet be able to move in new directions or with the people you'd like to associate with.

Remember also that Saturn's cycle around your chart is nearly over. It will be in your 12th House soon enough for a couple of years before it re-emerges onto your Ascendent/1st Hs. cusp. So very often this is a winding down period of tying up loose ends and going within (12th Hs) for a period of gestation.

[Eurobabe]

7. i found your references to the heart a bit disturbing

I went to ER with bounding heart and have had unexplained palpitations that made me give up ALL caffeine on 11/29. Right at the start of mercury f'ing retrograde. (This was a very BAD mercury period for me this time!!) I identify more with Cancer than a Leo, having mercury in Cancer.

Here is my birthchart...

[Dover]

8. Clinton has a NATAL Saturn/Leo configuration. For you, Saturn is

simply going to be passing through Leo by transit (natally it resides in Capricorn...a very natural placement because it's the ruler of Cap) So it's not a natal condition. Which is not to suggest ignoring health issues which arise...particularly dealing with the heart (sun in Leo).
But that would not be my first thought upon seeing these natal and transiting configurations, though Saturn can manifest or trigger natally existing conditions.

Transiting Saturn will set off your natal Sun/Neptune square which is probably not health related with the exception, perhaps, of possible depression issues or just a somewhat weakened system sometimes indicated by that natal configuration and which might make you more susceptable to viruses/colds/allergies (but could also reveal a hidden condition like a weak or leaky heart). Just get a checkup and always a second opinion if need be.
More likely...Neptune/Sun/Saturn in combination can lead to paranoia/mistrust/dishonesty/fraud/illusion followed by disillusionment, and interpersonal issues regarding boundaries (yours or others), or yourself or others not living up to unrealistic ideals, castles in the sand...likely will effect personal resources and friendships/groups, goals that were draped in idealism but turn out to be a disappointment with feet of clay, a spiritual crisis of some kind, victim/savior roles played out, etc.

But following on its heals will be transiting Saturn conj. Venus/Uranus which will also trigger the natal trine from your third house Jupiter/Nadir-MC axis, and sextile from the natal Moon... which looks like a potentially wonderful, if somewhat chaotic and unsettling, shift which could lead to a new career or role, playing a significant role in a political movement, media attention, new and very positive relationships, artistic expression and exploration, confidence and generosity, new goals, etc.

I highly recommend exploring these natal configurations in more depth so that you will get a deeper understanding of how things are unfolding in your life.

[Eurobabe]

9. cool, I have dabbled in astrology for over 20 yrs.

I can read a chart, and know about the aspects, but I know that putting all the pieces of alphabet soup together to get an in-depth picture is highly complicated. What with transits and progressions, etc.

Oh, BTW, I like that comment on 'political movement, playing a significant role.' A friend of mine who I met in the primaries is considering another attempt to run for State Congress, and he has given me a heads up for possible help. :)

[Pallas180]

11. 48 Percenter - I notice in your chart

that you have Neptune in the second house squaring the Sun with a one degree difference.

Palpitations? And I'll bet the doctors couldn't find anything or figure out what was causing this.

With Neptune square the Sun you might be prone to mysterious maladies to do with the heart,(or back) maybe infections around the lining...a weakness, or even mitral valve prolapse can be associated with the palpitations.....strange things like that. Uncomfortable isn't it?
Been there, know that.

Once you get off caffeine in the coffee and soft drinks, you will notice the difference immediately when you do drink something with caffeine again.

Having been a heart patient, with "hard" aspects to the Sun I can commiserate, but I do think you should get to a cardiologist and have the test done where they look at your heart beating live on tv. They should be able to see or hear if it's mitral valve prolapse, tachicardia, fibrillations or what. If you have insurance they'll pay for it, but get to a good cardiologist, not the emergency room..ok?

On Edit - PS - have you been worried consciously or subconsciously about a financial situation? If so, stop worrying and deal with it, confront it, so that that worry can be ruled out as the cause.

[Eurobabe]

30. thanks Pallas, that is very interesting....

I am off the caffeine for the first time in 22+ yrs. The ER was only choice because I have HMO that only covers me in SW OH now, not in VA where I am winding up my move. At ER, they ran an EKG and stuff, enzyme test, no heart damage. What I have kind of figured out is that I had been taking too many vitamins (along with too much thyroid med?) B's especially.

As soon as I get out to OH, I will visit my new family doc and ask for a check up with cardiologist. I fear it might be MVP too, I vaguely remember when I was 10 that my fam doc said he detected a slight heart murmur. Never had a problem with anything heart-related until the beginning of this month.

Need to get this straightened out, I really miss being on my thyroid meds. The brain is not functioning on all four cylinders at present.

[Eurobabe]

50. Pallas180, you freaking genius....

You mentioned a financial issue. You were dead on. I came clean in Feb., had all kinds of tests done, no heart probs. Got a job, and am working on clearing the debt which was a secret source of "heartache."

Half-way there to clearing it up permanently, and doing it in a way that is giving me much satisfaction. :) (No I'm not hookin' -- LOL)

[emcguffie]

64. Me, too.

Astrology for twenty years....

But I could never "synthesize", for some reason.

Maybe my Mercury in Sag in the third house? Or my ADHD?

[catzies]

55. OMG 48percenter, we share a birthdate but not a birthyear. Wow!

:wow:

Two years younger here. :hi:

[Cha]

10. What I'm interested in is

how it's going to affect "the chimp of the year". I know he has at least a couple of planets in Leo and a rising sign so I hope it gives his arrogance a comeuppence.

[Dover]

12. yeah......Saturn is not NEARLY finished with the chimp. The fun is only

just beginning. Especially from June onward as it returns one last time to it's natal position and then steams over his ascendent, Mercury, Pluto and Venus. The Saturn/Mercury-Pluto one is especially tough...in October. He can run but he cannot hide.

[Cha]

13. Yea, Dover! Thanks!

It seems like those Leo Saturn crossings will be tougher than his Saturn return because he hasn't had to pay for any of his Karma(that I'm aware of), Yet!

[Dover]

15. That said.....Saturn could bring out the worst in Bush...and we ALL would

pay for that. Mercury/Pluto/Saturn together is extremely secretive and withholding of information due to paranoia and fear. There is a cruel and bitter quality to this combination...contemptuous and punitive. It could lead to unfounded and unprecedented censorship, threats, scapegoating, tyranical declarations...etc.

One's mind can be obsessed with the dark side, death, etc.

Of course it can also BE a deadly combo.

[Delphinus]

14. John Hogue

just sent something out to his list entitled:
SATURN'S PRESIDENT
An Astrological Assessment of President Bush's Afflicted Natal Chart and the Karmic Challenges Facing America beyond 2004 through 2008

It is a somber report. Unfortunately, I can't find it on his site, and don't think I can post it - the four paragraph thing - right? If I can, I'll copy and paste.

Blessings,

[Dover]

16. If it was sent in an email I think that means you can post it here in its

entirety. I may be wrong on that, but I posted one of his emails in another thread here in this forum in its entirety, as well as providing his web site address.

So please post it!

[stellanoir]

20. I just received the same e-mail

Here it is in its entirety. . .(warning. . .it's somewhat pessimistic)

"(21 December 2004)
SATURN'S PRESIDENT
An Astrological Assessment of President Bush's Afflicted Natal Chart and the Karmic Challenges Facing America beyond 2004 through 2008
Friends,
I originally planned to publish the following astrological essay on President Bush's birth chart as a second part to of the 2 November 2004 bulletin: 2004--2008: America's Travail of Karmic Atonement (See http://www.hogueprophecy.com/archiv40.htm). I wrote it on 31 October but on election's eve I decided it would work better standing alone. Here it is today with an introductory paragraph and quote from 2 November's bulletin.
***
Back on the eve of the presidential election, almost seven weeks ago, I used astrological divination to predict why President Bush's natal position of Saturn, in relation to America's natal Saturn, guaranteed him victory in the presidential elections over John F. Kerry:

"G.W. Bush's destiny will be karmically magnified--for better or for worse--on election day, 2 November when Saturn transits 27 degrees Cancer in virtual conjunction over his natal Saturn position at 26 degrees Cancer. The good news for Bush is that the US birth chart has Saturn sitting in Libra at 14 degrees. That means Saturn's current transit over Bush's natal Saturn position magnifies an ultimately positive though difficult uphill battle to final victory in the 2004 election. Bush will win but other negative aspects to Bush's natal Saturn in his chart on that day will also magnify all of his limitations and weaknesses as a leader in his second term."

Bush did win a hard fought presidential campaign, regaining enough popular support after a dismal showing in October's presidential debates to beat his opponent by 3.5 million votes on 2 November 2004. Though some Democrats seek resolution of ballot disputes in Ohio and Florida, I predict no re-count will countermand what has been a clear Bush victory. On 2 November, the second term of G.W. Bush was born, astrologically speaking. Saturn's karmic candidate will be president. What signs does a divination of the stars and their positions give us?

America will face four more years of a man struggling to transcend one of the most afflicted astrological birth charts in the history of American presidents. Bush's Jupiter (ruler of higher mind, religion and expansive thinking) is squared (aspected negatively) with his Sun (the ruler of his ego). That square can make him spiritually self-righteous and narrow minded. He will be a man who cannot admit he has made a mistake.

Bush's Jupiter is also squared his Saturn (Karmic ruler). This aspect in a president can make his mistakes in policy potentially catastrophic for his nation.

His Sun (ego) is squared his Moon (ruler of emotions). That means his emotions are often at odds with his personality.

It gets worse.

Bush is the unfortunate recipient at birth of Neptune squared his Sun.

Noted astrologer, Frances Sakoian, once described this as "the aspect of self-delusion, par excellence."

She said the following on pp. 354-55 of her classic "The Astrologer's Handbook" (co-written by Louis B. Acher in 1973):

"If the natives are mystically inclined, they often consider themselves the chosen vessels of some Master or Divine Being. This belief is often the result of an unconscious desire for importance

"These persons can be vessels in a pure sense, but only if the rest of the horoscope shows a good mentality, humility, and realistic practicality. A well-developed Mercury and Saturn will do much to offset the negative effects of this square."

Astrologically speaking, there is no denying that President Bush's Neptune squared the Sun makes him a medium.

But for what, and whom?

The former Prime Minsiter and perhaps future Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, recalled in an Israeli newspaper article from early 2003, Bush saying: "God told me to strike at al-Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act..."

Earlier this year, Bush famously told the world on CBS "60 Minutes" news show that he did not take advice from his father, the former president, but listens to "a higher Father." Inferring that he talks--and receives--messages on policy decisions from God.

Bush's Mercury (ruler of the intellect) is sextiled (positively aspected) with Neptune. However Bush's Saturn is so ill aspected that Mercury offsets little of its negativity. It is possible that Mercury's positive inclination might see the right people at the right time persuade him that perhaps God is not always telling him when to go to war.

Bush's Saturnian self-delusion as a medium, unfortunately, will only gain strength because of his clear victory this November. His illusions once had a "mandate" only from the Almighty. Now it includes a slim majority of voters, of which include the deciding edge in his favor of bloc voting Christian fundamentalists. Now, when the president talks to his god before making monumental policy decisions, little Mercury in Bush's chart must feel like he is banished to the porch outside the Oval Office and Saturn has locked the window doors after him. Bush's natal Saturn has a far more powerful influence on his psyche because it is squared Jupiter (ruler of his higher mind and religious potentials) and squared his Moon (the ruler of emotions). Little mental Mercury will find it hard to convert Bush from making snap gut judgments and rigidly keeping them. Saturn squared Neptune nourishes Bush's blind faith in his "divine" calling to be president. A negatively aspected Neptune (ruler of illusions) whispers in his heart of hearts. It is not God. It will be almost impossible for Bush to understand that the voice he hears is his subconscious ego, prompted by "others."
THE SHAPE OF AMERICA'S ATONEMENT TO COME
The power of Saturn magnifies Bush's ability to win a close election on 2 November 2004. Controversies will leave the final victory "afflicted." He will fulfill his destiny--and that destiny is karmic. He will be sworn in for a second term as president of a deeply divided nation. His reelection will be a cosmic sign that Americans have semi-consciously chosen to endure a Saturnian gauntlet of national atonement.

For now, I will describe this negative karma in the broadest astrological colors.

Countries go through chapters of life just like people. Now America has entered the difficult teenage years of its destiny. It is perhaps the most powerful adolescent country in history. Power linked to adolescent immaturity can lead to bullying others with an arrogant disregard of facts or the realities of the surrounding community of countries. A strong, impatient and self-opinionated minor prone to bullying invariably finds comeuppance. All countries in their life cycles lose a fight they should not have instigated. Saturn's transit through Cancer, then Leo, and Virgo, in the coming four years will see a few American thumpings by reality.

It will be a collective experience in the school of historic hard knocks for all those Americans who elected Bush back in office. The same goes for all those who did not vote at all, and those in opposition who chose a mediocrity to run against the president. The transit of Saturn could help them all learn, and become a better nation from their collective mistakes.

The lessons of Saturn began in June 2003, when it entered the Sun sign of America--Cancer. The end of June saw America establish an interim government in Iraq. Bush and his cabinet dreamed that a milestone had passed and peace would settle on Iraq. Saturn soon upended dreams with reality. The violence of the Iraqi insurgency escalated instead. Bush pledged in his first term to be a uniter. After Iraq, his dream has become the Saturnian reality that Americans at home live in a national house divided into cultural and partisan camps of "blue-liberal" and "red-conservatives." Saturn here is teaching the president and other Americans that they now belong to a dis-United States.

Life under Saturn in Cancer, on the one hand, can be a time of delays and postponement and on the other, a time when confronting uncomfortable truths cannot be postponed. For instance, the Bush administration first tried to delay and finally failed to suppress the formation of the 9-11 Commission that investigated what part the administration played in the security failure that led to America's attack by terrorists on September 2001. It so happens that the 9-11 Commission began its investigation shortly after Saturn entered the ruling sign of America. Half way through Saturn's transit, the commission released its report at the worst of times for Bush, just before the presidential elections rather than after, as he desired.

At the beginning of Saturn's transit through Cancer, it began exposing other illusions in other investigations the Bush administration could no longer suppress. Chief among these was the reality that weapons of mass destruction never existed in Iraq. Thus, the grounds for going to war was an illusion. The war and the dying, and the loss of US prestige in the world is based on either sheer incompetence, or fraud. For the sake of nonexistent WMD, so far 100,000 Iraqis have paid the ultimate price. . Saturn in Cancer had exposed America's historic conceit--its rush to shoot first and check for reasons to go to war later. Soon, it may very well lose them a war they never needed to fight.

A citizenry in collective denial is another aspect of Saturn transiting through the birth sign of a nation. The people of America just did not want to deal with Iraq, with deficit spending, with a bungling presidency that let terrorists fly right in to New York skyscrapers and the Pentagon. Even those in opposition to Bush's policies did not rally behind reformers of their party. They did what people do under Saturn in Cancer, follow their leaders, follow the status quo--postpone the debate, the reform, postpone facing facts.

Because Bush will be reelected this will be a sign to the world that Americans have not learned their lesson, that unilateralism does not play well in the new global world. Saturn will push harder. The remaining seven months of its transit through Cancer will see America further isolated from the family of nations. Alliances will weaken. American troops will be virtually on their own in Iraq as it descends into civil war. The hemorrhage of outsourced American jobs will continue to bleed. Rather than lead the world in cleaning the environment, America will lead the world in destroying it, setting the stage for international sanctions against American products and polluting industries. The epicenter of global economy will continue shifting to Europe and Asia. Americans could retreat into denial under a second Bush administration, hiding in their Cancerian shells, projecting an illusion of how the world should be, and how it should give respect. They will resist facing the world as it is, or face the reality that at present they do not deserve the world's respect or its compliance.

The challenges of Saturn in Cancer on a national scale require Americans face and transcend a desire to isolate themselves as a country. Karma compels them to face their mistakes in global unilateralism and in Iraq, and take stock of delusions of conceited grandeur. Americans must also stop living in denial that their economy and democracy are in peril and in need of true reform.

The country under the transit of Saturn in Cancer suppresses a fearful, insecure and angry nation, ready to explode. If we do not find a way to creatively release this pent up frustration the explosion will come in Saturn's transit through Leo beginning in July 2005. The two-year passage could see American policy become even more bellicose, reactive and self-righteously arrogant towards other nations. A gathering economic crisis over oil will come as early as next summer (2005). The Bush administration will react rather than respond during such an emergency, becoming dictatorial. The president will widen the war on terror rather than contain it. Hubris in the White House, talking to God, will not have eyes to "see" or ears to "hear" that nuclear proliferation, like Iraq, could go out of control in the next four years. Once this window of opportunity to stave the plague of atomic weapons is closed, destiny will play itself out in nuclear bush wars with third world nuclear powers any time from late 2005 through the 2030s.

What is the president's response to this challenge? Apparently "God" has told him to scrap the ABM treaty, seriously consider ignoring nuclear test ban treaties, and embark on his own nuclear proliferation campaign. Pentagon research and development of low yield, bunker busting nukes are on the fast track in the next four years. Perhaps we will see them "tested" on the subterranean nuclear facilities of North Korea and Iran sometime after summer of 2005.

Saturn transiting Leo is often the sign for war, or a sudden escalation of current wars. There is a high chance of an Israeli-American air strike on Iran's nuclear power centers and missile defenses any time after mid-July to October of 2005. It could also come later after the mid-term US elections in November 2006 through July of 2007.

North Korea's nuclear facilities may also come under attack in the first six months of 2006. A preemptive strike on North Korea is less likely than Iran, unless Bush's higher "Father" tells him to destroy North Korea's missile bases before they can arm their warheads with atomic bombs.

American sons and daughters will be drafted to bolster occupying forces in a widening war in the Middle East no sooner than late 2005. They will go submissively the day the nation understands that the chaos in the Arab oil fields threatens to undermine oil production and the American economy. American children will go to war, not because of weapons of mass destruction, not because they are on a crusade to bring democracy to the Middle East. At last Saturn in Leo will expose the real reason why this war was forced on the American people by the Bush Administration: they believe America must control the oil regions or lose its affluent--oil effluent--way of life.

Saturn in volatile Leo wants to teach Americans a necessary lesson: Get real. Return to the path of the just. Make practical changes in domestic and global policies. American opposition leaders need to appeal to the humble angels of the American nature by the mid-term elections in 2006; otherwise, Saturn in Leo will spike national egoism breeding a rush to confrontation and disaster. Politicians running for office in 2006 should call upon the voters to return to basic American principles for justice, fair play, equal rights and representation for all. Strong third party movements, or reform movements inside the existing two-party system, may help incline America's destiny towards following an accurate American reality; namely, that we are a divided nation in need of healing. We are oil addicts that need to get clean. For instance, if Americans get real about their fossil fuel addiction, they need not send their children to stain the sands of distant oil fields with their blood. They can send them not far from home to galvanize a depressed domestic economy with a ten year plan to modernize the US infrastructure, and maximize fuel efficiency.

Revive the "can do!" American spirit.

The people who could go to the Moon in ten years can solve problems, creating alternative energy sources for fossil fuels and break free from an addiction for Middle Eastern oil. Americans have ever redefined themselves. They can redefine their economies and redefine their American way of life once again for the better--for freedom's sake.

The right use of karmic Saturn in assertive Leo could give birth to this core change in America's destiny any time from 2005 through 2007. The wrong use of Saturn in Leo will deepen the danger of fascism at home, addiction to fossil fuels, and intensify acts of imperialism abroad. Americans could truly become for the first time, the "bad guys" in the world.

Let that not happen, America!

Saturn passes from Leo into Virgo in September of 2007. A majority of Americans will either throw blame or be ready to creatively "discern" what has gone wrong since the pivotal election of 2000 led them astray.

American can put aside bullying when Saturn passes through Virgo and can again become a citizen in the house of nations. To do this, enough American leaders and citizens will surely need to come to their senses in time.When the next presidential election approaches, this country could be faced with perhaps its most dire crisis to date in this young century.

At the onset of Saturn's transit through Virgo, in 2008, hotheads running the government of Taiwan will attempt to declare permanent secession from the Chinese mainland. China's leaders, they believe, must make the Summer Olympics China's international coming out party. What better time to declare independence when China would not dare invade Taiwan and risk a global boycott of the games?

I tell you, little bureaucrats of Taiwan, China will invade you nonetheless if you secede. They will do it "after" the Olympics are over in early September 2008. They will invade despite the proximity of US carriers in the Western Pacific.

They will take Taiwan back, America. Are you--should you--be ready to go to war with China over it? Shall your new Secretary of State Rice stay the hot passions of Taiwanese secessionists with tempered and skilled diplomacy before the plunge?

Let me put it this way, in a variation of the Dillon song:

The future times, they "can" be a'changin', if Condi Rice, or more likely her replacement as Secretary of State in the latter half of Bush's second term, is a real diplomat and not just playing the "mouth" of Bush Corp.

During these first difficult and Saturnian years of national adolescence Americans will have fallen, stumbled and hurt themselves as a nation. These tough and necessary lessons could bring wisdom to an adolescent country. Perhaps an older-yet-wiser America may yet fulfill what Nostradamus intimated in one of his prophecies. There is an alternative future to a calamitous war "under Cancer"--the Sun sign of America. In Century 24 of Quatrain 6, Nostradamus may predict that Americans after Bush's second term could "anoint" a new leader who will "bring peace to the earth for a long time." (See the following related bulletins at: http://www.hogueprophecy.com/archiv40.htm)

The future is full of unexpected promise for this great nation. America's adolescent era may lead in 50 years to its loss of outer power and the prestige inherent in being the world's last true and global superpower. When the fires of empire vanish, America will turn within. Its grandchildren and great-grandchildren will become introspective and launch a spiritual revolution across the world.

This is not the end of America's glory, it is the beginning.

America's greatest destiny begins in the latter half of the 21st century when it will become the cradle of a new religiousness in a New Age.

Saturn kindly and richly rewards those who learn their lessons."


John Hogue
Rogue Scholar/Author:

[Dover]

22. Thanks for posting!

n/t

[stellanoir]

23. no problem

you diligent poster you !!!

kidding. . .always enjoy your many posts.

Best of holidays to you !

[Digit]

17. Sun in Leo, rising sign Leo...time to batten down the hatches?

Will this be worse for Leos? Geez, I have been having troubles since 1996 at least. Ugh!
Planetary positions
planet sign degree house motion
Sun Leo 21°45'23 01 direct
Moon Capricorn 27°58'44 06 direct
Mercury Virgo 14°56'16 02 direct
Venus Virgo 18°15'02 02 retrograde
Mars Cancer 28°01'38 12 direct
Jupiter Aries 13°58'33 09 retrograde
Saturn Libra 00°10'44 02/3 direct
Saturn is technically near the end of house 2 and is interpreted in house 3.
Uranus Cancer 12°11'03 11/12 direct
Uranus is technically near the end of house 11 and is interpreted in house 12.
Neptune Libra 17°20'35 03 direct
Pluto Leo 19°34'06 01 direct
True Node Pisces 09°53'32 08 retrograde


House positions (Placidus)
Ascendant Leo 12°09'53
2nd House Virgo 03°49'08
3rd House Libra 00°12'06
Imum Coeli Scorpio 02°23'53
5th House Sagittarius 08°12'00
6th House Capricorn 12°23'44
Descendant Aquarius 12°09'53
8th House Pisces 03°49'08
9th House Aries 00°12'06
Medium Coeli Taurus 02°23'53
11th House Gemini 08°12'00
12th House Cancer 12°23'44

Major aspects
Sun Trine Jupiter 7°47
Sun Sextile Neptune 4°25
Sun Conjunction Pluto 2°11
Moon Opposition Mars 0°03
Moon Trine Saturn 2°12
Mercury Conjunction Venus 3°19
Mercury Quincunx Jupiter 0°58
Mercury Sextile Uranus 2°45
Mars Sextile Saturn 2°09
Jupiter Square Uranus 1°47
Jupiter Opposition Neptune 3°22
Jupiter Trine Pluto 5°36
Jupiter Trine Ascendant 1°49
Uranus Square Neptune 5°10
Neptune Sextile Pluto 2°14
Neptune Sextile Ascendant 5°11

[Dover]

18. Well it looks as though your Leo planets and positions are well aspected.

You are certainly no wallflower or shrinking violet though your personal power may not be overtly expressed or even apparent unless necessary! (Pluto doesn't necessarily like to show all his cards and with a Sun/Pluto conjunction, that's how others may read you). I feel quite certain you must know this....but will say that the depth and bredth and intensity of your Leo planets and aspects surely express charisma, leadership, courage and exploration, research and creative skills that can be beautifully channeled and directed with the coming Saturn transit. And I'm guessing you have an iron will that could literally move mountains.

Remember that Saturn, despite it's reputation, is not simply some malefic and punitive energy.
It is a taskmaster who challenges us to become more by testing and prodding us to ensure that we are laying solid foundations.
It's part of the maturing process, it is literally and figuratively the backbone, and the energy of manifestation.

You may feel that you have had your light hidden under a bushel with the current passage of Saturn through the 12th Hs. But consider it a formative, soul searching time prior to your debut when Saturn crosses into your first house (which will happen in 2006).


No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light. --Luke 11:33

[Digit]

26. That was helpful and hopeful....thanks so much.

Especially since shrub took office, life has dealt me some heavy blows, as it has to others as well. Oh WHOOPS, I have to exclude the uberwealthy which BENEFITTED under this cockeyed administration!
I have aged alot and this last travesty of an election did not help.
So, of course it ALSO did not help at the grocery store last week when the checker asked if I was a senior and wanted the senior discount.
My age had always been guessed at being much YOUNGER than my years so it was a real shockerooni, since I am NOT 55 yet! Not that I am all about looks, but the remark truly did not help.
Still, I am hanging in there, sending emails regarding the election fraud, joining the prayer circle to pray for the planet, and worried about what is to become of the downtrodden.
I am one of those who take on the negative feelings of those around me. Not a good thing. I don't MEAN too, but just call me SpongeDigitLargePants and I will probably respond.
Anyway, I keep "programming" for those who TRULY know about the election fraud to come forward and get it off their chests. My hope is that those who hear what * is planning for the future will not want this blood on their hands.
I am one person, but I plan on making a difference and making my voice heard.
Again, thanks for the analysis...it helps to keep me going!

[Dover]

27. Perhaps the Leo/Saturn lessons about relying on your OWN inner

sources and reserves (rather than pinning your hopes and happiness and personal esteem on what others may or may not do or think or feel) will help to free you of the sponginess and help you learn to connect with and rely on your own inner power. It's a joyful pure connection. It sounds like you have lost touch with that somewhat and need to find yourself again. Otherwise you are simply tossed about and at the mercy of the prevailing winds.

[Dover]

24. Now class, this is what a sociopathic, paranoid, tyranical dickwad looks

like in captivity. Then ponder if you will Saturn moving into proud Leo conj. his Asc, Mercury, Pluto, Venus...

[Digit]

25. Isn't that incredible?

All he needs is a Bat Masterson cane. (I think I am dating myself...)

[linazelle]

28. Ewwww...red tie, orange shoes, white hat...I would guess he

has a badly aspected venus somewhere in his chart--he shows no ability that he senses what's tasteful or beautiful.

[Pallas180]

29. Ewww is right. Nasty. America's own JR Ewing come to life.

Look at that mouth.

Something so nasty about that mouth.

[TankLV]

31. No - it's in my neighbor George's garage!

At least that's where his car should be!

[NJCher]

32. doesn't account for the vote fraud

This article assumes bush won the popular vote by 3.5 million. Those of us who frequent the 2004 Election Results forum know that is not the case. For that reason, I'm not putting much stock in Hogue's interpretation.

I recall being concerned for my husband when Saturn went into Cancer. He is a Cancer and I was worried that his work might suffer. His work contracts weren't in an especially good situation back at that time so I could hardly imagine it getting worse.

Instead, numerous deals he had carefully nurtured came through. There are quite a number of them and he is doing very well. Not only that, but one of his chief contracts is what most would call a "dream" job where he gets to exercise his creativity, work when and in whatever style he wants, etc. In addition to having attained prime work conditions, he is being noted for his creativity and is setting new standards in his field. The company for which he works is leaving the competition in the dust, thanks to his innovations.

So my point is that Saturn can also mean past work investments coming to fruition. It took a long time for these deals to come to fruition--almost a year, I think.

Consequently, as a Leo, I am looking forward to Saturn entering Leo. Like my husband, I have invested my time in developing my skills and talents. I hope to do as well as he has.


Cher

[Dover]

33. A very good point about Saturn!

Most of my experiences with Saturn have also been constructive...particularly at this stage in my life. I had more difficulty with it in my youth.

It's also important to understand how Saturn is aspected in the natal chart to know a little more about how it might behave or what issues might arise when it is conflicted.

I think it hits hardest when either the foundations someone has laid were not solid to begin with, or a meaningful reflection of the person themselves as regards their life purpose or lessons. Or if the person is not maturing within the longer Saturn cycle and needs to begin again. It might also mark the completion of a cycle in one's life and is only difficult if the person is not willing to let go of that which has been completed (like a great work of art, or a building) and move on to the next "project" or cycle.

Bush has Saturn in a VERY difficult position (the 12th hs) natally, and it is also heavily afflicted. Though one may not consider his life particularly 'difficult', I suggest they look more closely. And precisely because he is, as I suggested before, a crab without a Saturn shell (a frightening feeling of vulnerability...resulting in deeply ingrained fears and paranoia), he is dangerous in a leadership position because of the ways he might seek to compensate. It is impossible for us to do more than speculate on what any particular person is here to manifest...their soul's journey. But perhaps Bush is playing a collective role by projecting the consequences of those deep Cancerian insecurities that are at the core of this Cancer nation when taken to extremes. It sure seems that we have always projected these fears onto other nations and people through demonization. But what if the Demon walks among us? Or IS us?



I also have difficulty with that portion of Hogue's analysis which assumes the vote was accurate. But if that is the primary "collective reality" then perhaps that alone gives it manifestation....such as any historic event that is collectively accepted or mythologized even though inaccurate. That's a fuzzy part of astrology for me and opens a BIG can of worms regarding the origins and maintenance of our personal and collective reality.

It may give credence to the concept that "reality" is what WE make of it, and is the manifestation of thought and belief, having it's origins and reference point WITHIN us rather than relying on some sort of disembodied 'second opinion' that is somehow separate from us.
And what happens when our personal "reality" seems to be in conflict with that collective reality? We seek out our own group to support our reality...or risk going insane. The media is one reference for our outer reality but should not be confused with our 'inner' reality. And this is what is put to the test when our outer reality is being manipulated. We may deal with this discrepancy by disengaging from the media and develop our own group. But in the end we are forced to fall back more and more on our inner reality and 'truth' to stay true to ourselves.

Then what is 'truth'?

You can see how Saturn achieved it's more esoteric signficance as the Gatekeeper between worlds.

[Dover]

34. This is coming right up so thought I'd bump...and add a few things

as I come across them. Those with prominent chart/planetary positions in the fixed signs (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius) will be most strongly impacted by Saturn's two year passage through Leo.

Here is a little blurb by Robert Hand:

According to medieval authors, Saturn is in detriment in this sign. This means that aquarian principles like cooperation, humanitarianism and compromise are not well supported here. Dictatorial attitudes and selfishness may result. Saturn represents the principle of agnoia; and here the lack of knowing is with respect to the will, character, identity and self expression. It shows those who don't quite know how to express themselves, and suffer from a lack of spontaniety, self esteem and creativity. Sometimes they are reserved as a result. This can lead to self doubt and lack of confidence, but this is a double edged sword and in some cases it identifies those who aspire to a high office by creating a need for recognition. In the latter case Saturn inhibits feedback to the native about their performance. This usually takes the form of others trying to stand in the way of the natives best efforts. The result is that they try even harder than most to make an impression and some really succeed in distinguishing themselves. Notable examples of this are Adolf Hitler, Bill Clinton, and Al Gore. Bill Clinton didn't have an issue with self expression because of the reception from the Sun in Leo and a very powerful Venus in Libra rising. Gore is said to come acoss as "stiff and wooden". Hitler simply defined himself as the state of Germany ignoring the conflict between Saturnian issues and individuality. <8a>

______________________
SATURN IN LEO
-Raymond A. Merriman-

(excerpt from Forecasts 2005)



Saturn will begin a 2-year journey through the sign of Leo on July 16, 2005, after spending the prior two years in the parental sign of Cancer.



During the Saturn in Cancer period (mid-2003 through mid-2005), world leaders adopted a very parental attitude towards its citizens. As stated in last year’s Forecast Book, “Saturn and Cancer are both dynamics of parental qualities. Saturn represents the father authority, that body which makes and enforces the rules. Cancer represents the maternal principles, which protects and tries to shield from harm. With parental principles emphasized, it is likely to be a time when governments throughout the world take the position that they know what is best for their children, the populace of their nations. It is like developing a “Homeland Securities” branch to the government. As such, many rigid rules (laws) may be passed that are more repressive and restrictive than usual, all with the notion that it is for everyone’s “own good.” These rigid rules and their applications are designed to protect people from harm. But how do people react when their rights and freedoms are restricted, even in the name of safety or concern? How do adults react when their government leaders treat them like children? We will find out when Saturn goes into Leo, in 2005-2007. At that time the people will start to see and treat their leaders like children. The roles will reverse, and so will the security of those in positions of leadership, who may be severely criticized and challenged.”



We will now see if this assessment of Saturn in Leo will be correct. Certainly the analysis of Saturn in Cancer was applicable, as world leaders pretty much dictated an atmosphere of fear: fear of terrorism, fear of the United States, fear of anyone who was “outside” of their boundaries. And only through the wisdom and care of these leaders, could the people be “protected” and made safe. Anybody who opposed them was seen as a danger to the fragile stability that they – the leaders – could maintain. To vote them out meant that you were risking a great and unknown danger.



But now Saturn will go into Leo, and the populace will likely challenge those overly protective attitudes and decisions by their leaders. And if those leaders cannot account well enough to the satisfaction of their constituency, they are in danger of being voted out, or thrown out through a revolutionary coupe.



But of course, matters do not have to result in this fashion of a revolutionary urge for change. Saturn is, after all, the principle of management and governance. And Leo represents the potential for creative leadership. When integrated in a healthy manner, we get the combination of creative leadership in government and/or management. When the head of a government or business is creative, and willing to exercise a bright, new form of leadership that is based in the principles of respect for one another’s talents, then you have the ingredients of a well-run enterprise, or nation. It is thus possible to have a nation that is united behind its leaders, because those leaders are seen as just and respectful of all those they serve and lead. The key for success with Saturn in Leo is to lead with respect, and create an atmosphere that encourages creative self-expression. Saturn is parental, and Leo is the child within each of us. When the parent and the child respect one another and get along cooperatively, it is a strong family unit. It is only when the parent becomes too parental, too limiting or demanding, and treats the child without respect, that the child will rebel in an effort to express its own needs – its own self – creatively.



This then is the challenge for world leaders in 2005-2007, as indicated by Saturn in Leo. It is to lead with respect, and to encourage creative expression. It is to be fair and just, and to avoid the temptation to control with an autocratic rule, as if the citizens are like unruly or immature children that need to be disciplined. If leaders or business heads can relate to their population or employees with respect, they in turn will be admired. If instead, they choose to treat their citizens and employees like little children, then the children will rebel, and those leaders will be forced out of their positions of authority. At worst, leaders will be brought to justice themselves, and forced to account for their behaviors of the past. If they cannot account to the satisfaction of those they have offended, then they will be met with appropriate consequences. I think in these next 2-3 years, you will see many former world leaders brought before the courts of the world, and held accountable for their past behaviors. Saddam Hussein might be only one of those former world leaders whose past actions will now be brought before these courts. ...cont'd


http://www.mmacycles.com/fc2005.htm
_________________________________________

JULY OF 2005: SATURN ENTERS LEO FOR two-and-a-half years. The last time Saturn entered Leo, the Vietnam War had just ended. The time before that, World War II has just ended. Do we dare have some legitimate hopes here?

The Leo energies will not be as ebullient and fun-loving, not with disciplinary Saturn around. Saturn's job is to rain on parades and break up parties. Saturn curtails trivia spending and shapes us up for reality, ready or not. Still, since the Leo energy will be more focused it can accomplish more-even under stern Saturn. ( President Bush has a Leo Ascendant. He will be more sober and reflective after the summer but he may be able to accomplish his pet projects and gain better credibility.)

_______________________________________________

The Sun and Saturn (Sun is ruler of Leo).

http://galaxyofstarz.homestead.com/Saturn.html

[Cha]

37. I don't see this happening..

"( President Bush has a Leo Ascendant. He will be more sober and reflective after the summer but he may be able to accomplish his pet projects and gain better credibility.)"

"Pet Projects"? Destoying AMerica and the People in it?


Thanks Dover..I've been kinda dreading this cause I'm a Leo and I vaguely remember this happening 30 years ago and how out there I was. But I didn't know about astrology then, so it will be very helpful now.

[KoKo]

39. lol's Zidzi....I was about to post about that statement...but I think

the quote was from Ray Merriman (Market Timer) and he has "walked a fine line" from alienating his business/trader group by being careful not to criticize Bush or use him in his predictions until very recently.

I read Merriman every week on StarIQ and this week he is talking about chances for Peace!

I don't think he really thinks Bush can succeed but maybe he did in his 2005 Predictions and has revised when he saw how he's made a mess out of Iraq. :shrug:

I was really upset at the statement that Bush might succeed in anything..since he's such and evil screw up. I don't think he can learn from anything because he thinks he's wired into God himself. :-(

:hi: Zidzi

[Cha]

43. Thanks for that

background on Merriman..he just doesn't know bush like we know him.

:hi: KoKo

[Dover]

40. It's remarkable how maturity changes the equation when dealing with

"difficult" planetary energies. I find that transits are not nearly so "malefic" now as they were in my youth. Conscious intent and utilization rather than dread of the energies available, make all the difference. Lemons make very good lemonade! LOL!

[Cha]

44. Thanks Dover..

I needed that!

:hi:

[KoKo]

38. Dover, that music accompanyment to galaxyofstarz. is incredibly beautiful.

Do you have any idea what it is? :shrug:

[Dover]

41. Huh.....wow. I didn't have the sound on when I visited that site before.

I just went to have a listen and agree it IS beautiful! I've never heard it before. You might email the site's owner and ask what it is.

[hippiechick]

42. I don't know who did that music but ...

... some other wonderful meditation music is done by this group:

http://www.majale.com/frames.html

There are some downloads available on their site, on the 'music' tab. Enjoy !


:hi:

[loudsue]

45. I kept opening the site, and didn't hear any music!

:cry: I wanna hear the music!!! :cry:

Anyway....thanks for revisiting this thread, Dover! It seems like everything political is standing on the edge of a precipice right now; we can either fall, irrevocably, on our faces, or rethink the whole thing, and save ourselves. And in my intuition, it seems as if it all turns on how we deal with george bush the lesser and his band of merry thieves. Saturn hitting his ascendant is going to tell a lot of the story, methinks!

:kick:

[Dover]

loudsue...if ya wanna hear the music just wait a little bit while it loads

I discovered it takes a couple of minutes.

Yes, you're right. Bush's Saturn crossing should be very telling about whether is suggests consolidation of his power (even if the public feels differently) or the beginning of the end. In truth I'm more concerned about all those propping him up, like Cheney.

[Dover]

47. .

[Helga Scow Stern]

46. I have been thinking that Saturn in Leo this time will have to do with

"putting one's money where one's heart is..."

and by that I mean having the courage of one's convictions.

This transit of Saturn through Leo is the first to galvanize the Pluto in Leo generation (born between 1939 and 1956) since the 70's. At that time these visionary leaders were too young, still caught up in the grandiose possibilities of the sixties, and Saturn through Leo seemed to take the air out of that balloon. Many lost their dreams then, or put them away in favor of joining the "adults." Now the role of elder is upon most of this generation, all of whom will be over 50 by the end of next year, and so Saturn's expression is one of the need to revisit and somehow take responsibility for those heart felt truths that were put away during the last transit of Saturn through Leo.

It reminds me of the myth of Parsival, of the wounded king and the need to ask the question truthfully, What ails the king? Aside from what ails the outer leadership, What ails the king within, that within us that is capable of standing up for the gold, the integrity, that, which we know from a position of having endured the trials of life, still has value?

But Saturn will also have a limiting and disciplining effect on the over-indulged child, like Bush, like insanely greedy heads of corporations, and bullies the world over. When Hitler was in power with his furious inner child in charge, Pluto was in Leo, conjunct Saturn, and so brought forth the much darker ramifications of acting this out. Surely there is a lot of that same malignant narcissistic entitlement running rampant today, but it is not likely to get as far now...We have learned that lesson, but we have to remember it and find the heart to act on what we know. Saturn going through Leo means someone has to grow up. That is already happening, and I think we will see a lot more of people really taking responsibility once Saturn goes into Leo, perhaps goaded into it because of some of the displays of bullying and greed we are likely to see as the narcissists who have forced their way into power try with all their might to get their way. But they will not win, just as they did not win at the end of WWII.

One more thing I have been telling my clients is that this upcoming transit of Saturn through Leo really does have to do with money. There is a faith involved that will be tested and proven with regard to how we make our livelihood. Money will be brought into the equation of "faith," or one's relationship with soul and spirit....and I mean in ways in addition to what the New Lifer Christians are saying about the free market economy. From our perspective, it has to do with not using having to earn a living as an excuse not to live out your soul's destiny, but instead opening up and seeing how by providing for the soul, the money comes, but no longer as a source of providing a false bolster for lacking inner worth. I find myself saying this, and I think it has to do with bringing a manifestation of new laws about money which arose during the Taurus stellium of 2000-01.

[NJCher]

48. could you expand on this a bit?

...I think it has to do with bringing a manifestation of new laws about money which arose during the Taurus stellium of 2000-01.

What are the new laws about money?

I recall this stellium, I just can't remember how it affected money.



Cher

[Pallas180]

49. Well done Ojai. I've been thinking that Leo is the natural 5th house

so with Saturn going through Leo, are we going to work harder at
"playing" or is there going to be no playing? A time of really growing up with Saturn going through the natural 5th house. 5th house is also the house of gaming/gambling....and the stock market is
one big gaming/gambling house. In the toilet, I would bet with Saturn going through Leo.

And besides that Leo is the leader, the chief, is it not?
We can hope for more than Lame Duckness can't we?

On the other hand will we lose leaders, people in the forefront?

but mostly Saturn in Leo says "no time for fun", I think.

[2Design]

51. Astrological Highlights 2005:

http://www.waterbearerastrology.com/html/body_winter_2004.html

<snip>
As Saturn travels through early Leo toward 2006, we can expect sobering developments in the areas of life where we creatively express ourselves and our felt purpose. Leo’s location in your birth chart specifies these dynamics for you. Generally, creative pursuits and the resources that sustain them, speculative ventures, and relationships with children and lovers are now subject to Saturn’s rigorous accountability. By late summer, we may notice that life is becoming all work, that our endeavors are increasingly exercises in teaching or learning, with little time for recreation. Consequences and follow through on projects begun in 2002-03 will progressively demand priority attention in order to succeed. Our ultimate success will be commensurate with our personal integrity and willingness to assume responsibility for outcomes - no excuses - now and through 2007. Saturn in Leo is about giving form to something of our felt purpose through sustained effort and work. While there may be little time for fun and relaxation, these next two years are an opportunity for disciplined creative work.

<snip>

[NMDemDist2]

53. "all work" tell me about it...n/t

[catzies]

54. I really needed to know this, thanks Dover.

It's not my Saturn Return when I was 27-28 in 89-90 which was bad enough, but I can safely say that everything I have/am, what I do and where I live today is a direct result of the last time Saturn was in Leo in the late '70s and I was in my teens. It was traumatic and in many ways I never got over it.

Is it also because my natal Saturn is retrograde in Aquarius in my 2nd house? I am terribly apprehensive about the next two years, and feeling irrationally insecure right now, like it's the calm before the storm.

edit to add I'm a native Leo which clarifies. :)

[Dover]

57. Hi catzies. Welcome...haven't seen/met you here before.

The good news is that you are now an adult and have surely grown in conscious self awareness and can deal with things much differently than you could as a teen. And I dare say that after the extreme and intensely transformative energies of the recent (over the past few years) transit of Pluto over your Sag ascendent (which is very close to the U.S. Sag ascendent chart!) and all the aspects it has made to other planets in the process, this upcoming Saturn transit may feel like a breeze comparitively speaking! At any rate there's a lot going on in that chart of yours and these conflicts can be debilitating for a while, but can also challenge us in ways that will lift us out of our old patterns.

Anyway, just to isolate the Saturn transit for a moment:

You will need to look at issues about values and possessions...your own and others. You may wrap up these issues in some disguised form that is more acceptable, as for instance judgements about wealth = sin, or some such thing. In a case such as that it might be a cover for what's really going on...perhaps your fears of being without, and/or your deep shame or judgements (usually based on other people's morality), about your own need for that kind of security, comfort. Perhaps there is an early emotional link to these feelings about things, such as an experience of poverty, or austere attitudes toward possessions, work ethic, etc. Fear of success might also be lurking beneath these issues and is crippling your sense of personal accomplishment and value in the world, which would stifle that Leonine need for self expression and recognition. And it doesn't have to be a "thing" of value. It could be a personal skill such as writing that you both need for your self expression, but deny yourself because you were told it's not lucrative...etc.

And Saturn/Sun combinations often relate to issues with the father. Perhaps he expressed his fears or hurts by wrapping them up in self righteous behavior because it was not okay to express the more raw emotions beneath it. perhaps he carries a pattern of failure or deep disappointment with his achievements that have affected your sense of empowerment. So examine your father's archetypes that he carries and see if that provides an important clue.

At any rate, a good way to figure out what the issues underlying any transit might be, is to become aware of the people and situations you attract at that time, and try to gain enough distance from it to see what part of yourself is being projected and playing itself out. Once you get a handle on which patterns are still active in your life, then Saturn can also help to provide the stamina, discipline and clarity to deal with it.

Anyway, does that ring any bells or are you scratching your head?

":hug:

[catzies]

59. Thanks for your thoughful reply. I've read all these threads for years

whether it was in the "old" Meeting Room, or wherever they're to be found here.

Your threads and insights are illuminating and helpful, and I appreciate what you do, along with others like Pallas180 and Hoodwinked's ACG maps.

Thank you again for what you do here. It's noticed, and appreciated.

:hug:

[Dover]

65. Thank you for that kindness.

It seems you know a fair amount about astrology and life cycles, yes?

[catzies]

68. I've been around astrology all my life, as a 60s hippie child

and it has always made a lot of sense to me. I've had many chart readings, and am an avid reader about astrology and I don't mean my daily horoscope in the paper. ;) There's so much to learn and I'm enjoying it all.

[Pallas180]

56. As we approach July, this Saturn in Leo thread is in the forefront -

and here on June 30, news is reporting that 58% of Americans believe the economy is getting worse.

Now that sounds very Saturn in Leo.

[TNOE]

58. I'm trying like hell to figure myself out, but to no avail - LEO

I'm a Leo and Saturn scares the bejesus out of me, although I've read and read about astrology, I'm not anywhere near as astute as you guys. Any insight would be appreciated, but certainly not expected. I've always had money issues, was thinking of buying a house, but am scared to death. I'm also zero in the relationship factor too.

Thanks.

July 23, 1959 at 2:05 p.m. Owenton, KY

[Pathwalker]

60. You don't need to be afraid of Saturn, TNOE.

Not really. IMO, Starn gets a bum rap; it's the Cosmic Taskmaster, the Celestial Schoolmaster, whose job is simply to make sure you do it right, play by the rules, cross ALL your T's,dot ALL you I's, and please don't forget those periods. It forces you to pay attention to all the details, discipline yourself and wait for gratification. It's job is to remind you of the lessons you've ignored, and concentrate your energies where the cosmos says you need to fulfill your obligations.
The bright side is that, when and if you do learn the lessons - Saturn WILL reward you for those lessons learned.
I hope this helps.

[TNOE]

62. Thank you Notorious

Well then I'm definitely going to await my rewards - I have been through hell and am still standing. I think I've learned my lessons well, I certainly hope so. I definitely think its MY TIME - or at least it should be. thanks again.

[Pathwalker]

63. Im glad I could help. I hope everything works out

wonderfully for you!

[Pallas180]

61. On the political front, as Saturn enters Leo,and the more I think about

it, and in view of the current events in DC...it would seem
that Lame Duckness is even more than we all thought.

It seems to be "without leadership", a lack of leadership -as Leo is leadership - and he has lost all credibility.

Polls show the second lowest listening group to his speech two days ago since he became the resident.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Worst than that even pukes are questioning him in the streets

here is a talk today

Well folks things are starting to change...

This gentleman raises money for vets locally, he is a vet himself. So I put my customary buck in the bottle and started a talking.

It struck me that he is not to happy with the pukes since he cannot understand why they finance the war, (I pointed out the troops don't have what they need, such as body armor but the contractors do)... but they don't finance the VA... he is a Republican and that is trying his patience (Hallelujah there is hope here)

Anyhow he does not want to discuss the war, we are there, we need to deal with it... at which point I said, you took the oath, I took he oath, article two section four, they lied us to war, bring the troops home and impeach them... he did not argue.. Though he is about to join the mercs

I told him, as a merc he has zero protection under Geneva, good luck.. and that even the vets he is raising money for right now, he will be despised by. I despise Mercs.. he said well yes I will be one, but I will get 15K a month (that is oh 2K a day, what a troop gets a month), and he has not been able to get a job since he left the Marines... I tried to talk to him about the Police... point is he did not argue when I said we need to impeach these folks and he, yes he, directed me to the MIHOP\ LIHOP sites, I directed him to PNAC....

Keep talking folks.

[Pallas180]

67. Nadin - all I can say is wow. Chilling. On one side of the

story it's encouraging that he didn't get angry about impeachment, but not being able to get a job after leaving the marines, and
going for that kind of job...I still have chills.

How old was he?

[Pallas180]

69. It's July. Kick the thread

:hi:

[Dover]

70. Another take on Saturn in Leo

The July Perspective 2005
by Leigh Oswald

OVERVIEW
There is a very significant astrological event happening in the zodiac family this month.

Saturn, the cosmic schoolteacher and lord of karma, shifts his sign from Cancer to Leo on the 16th at 12.32 GMT.

Saturn stays in each sign for 2-2½ years as he wends his way on his approximate 30-year cyclical journey around the ecliptic (the zodiac circle). Whatever sign is his host at any given period, is the recipient of his lessons and challenges, but also benefits from the resultant growth and maturity. Hence, all Cancers at some point over the last 2 plus years have been very aware of his influence and, although there may have been tough times and challenges, losses and difficulties, in retrospect they will understand that these very experiences have helped create a more secure and solid infrastructure in their life in some guise. They may well also recognise that they now have been anointed with a more mature understanding.

Apart from the obvious deduction that after the 16th, it is Leos who will be mainly affected by Saturn’s newly acquired domination of their sign, Aquarians, by opposition influence, will also feel the effect. To some extent, by square angle, Taurus and Scorpio will also feel the long reach of Saturn’s bony fingers.

After the 16th, for all of us, whatever area or arena of life that is ruled by Leo in our birth chart will, over the next 25 and a half months (to be precise), be where we have to experience Saturn’s particular regime.

One gets put back on track onto a more realistic basis under Saturn’s influence. He presents us with our karmic bank balance, in terms of its credit and debit. What we have to learn under Saturn is necessary in order to bring us a greater sense of reality and humility. It’s also often a case under Saturn of "face the fear and do it anyway."

He actually represents the school of hard knocks and is a very character building entity.

He also reminds us that we often reap exactly what we sow. However, if we have attended with full diligence to our lessons and our duties in the past, then under a Saturn transit our successes are reinforced by the bringing of new opportunities, as tough as they are, to prove that we can go one better and build on our already strong infrastructure. A new productive challenge will arrive. However, what we have neglected, or where we have cut corners, we will have to face up to and pay the bill under a Saturn transit. He forces us to build a healthy realism in our life with patience, hard work, structure and discipline and so become more self-sufficient and self-contained...cont'd

http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/horoscope/horoscopes.asp


________________________________________________________________


SATURN INTO FIERY LEO: 2005 – 2007
all that glistens is not gold...

Every two and a half years, the underlying karmic structure of our lives is changed by the transit of Saturn, Lord of Karma, into a new sign of the zodiac. Richard Giles, astrologer and Feng Shui expert, gives us the good oil on the transit of Saturn through Leo over the next two and a half years.

On July 16th 2005, Saturn, which rules earthy Capricorn, leaves its opposite sign Cancer and moves into the fire sign of Leo. During the period of Saturn in Cancer (mid 2003 – mid 2005), world leaders adopted a particularly parental attitude towards their citizens. With those parental principles emphasised, it has been a time when governments took the position that they know "what's best for their children", their population. Thus, many rigid rules and laws were passed even more repressive and restrictive than usual, all with the notion that its for everyone's "own good". These new rules were designed to protect people from "harm". But how do people react when their rights and freedoms are restricted, even in the name of safety or concern? How do adults react when their leaders treat them like children? We'll see as Saturn moves into Leo in July 2005.

Today there's an atmosphere of fear – fear of terrorism, fear of refugees, fear of the USA, fear of Arabs, fear of anyone outside the normal boundaries. Only through the care of their leaders, could people be "protected" and made safe. Anybody who opposed them was seen as a danger to that frail stability that their leaders maintained. To vote them out meant that you were risking a great and nameless danger.

With Saturn's shift in 2005, roles will start to reverse and people may begin to see and treat their leaders like children. Leo rules children, who are the creative issue of their parents (the leaders). With this role reversal, so will the previous balance of security of those in positions of leadership, and many will be severely criticised and challenged.

Leos Like Authority
Leos tend to be bossy and like having their own way as much as Saturn likes authority. This can signal clashes as those in authority try to squelch the natural exuberance of people who are exerting their good nature or their native creativity. Saturn is the planet of control and structures, as well as wisdom and maturity. Demands for personal freedoms, restructuring of old political systems and the right to be one's own self, will increase. In particular, government and corporate practices will be under profound scrutiny. Check to see where Leo is positioned in your chart, and see who in authority you might tangle with over the next couple of years...cont'd

http://www.astrologycom.com/saturn2005.html

[hippiechick]

71. Oh Yippee ...

I guess I should find a cave to hide in soon, huh ?

[Dover]

72. RUN!!!

RUN AWAY!!!

Actually, if you're still standing after the Saturn conjunction to all your Cancer planets, what's a couple of more?

Must be strong stock...lol!

[hippiechick]

74. Strong stock, or a glutton for punishment ...

I just keep telling myself that this is the life I ordered, and must really have been a shit in some previous lives in order to have Spirit come through with such gusto on my request this time around ...

:hi:

[Mrs_Beastman]

73. Having natal Saturn in Cancer(retrograde, no less)

I am looking forward to this passage. I've already felt it, and ususally the outer planets take awhile. The topic of babies, houses, taking care of my elderly mom and such has already come into the foreground.

My favorite example, My stubborn husband. I've been trying to talk him into becoming part of the landed gentry for two years now...with no luck. Yesterday(July 16th, no less) he turns to me and says we should buy a house.:eyes:

Also, heart health has become a topic. Quitting smoking and eating correctly for my heart other then just fitting into nice clothes has become important.

It's interesting that in January 2006 the FDA will require food labeling to includes trans-fat labeling...just in time for everyone to take heart health seriously!