This may not be the correct forum . little rant coming

[Why Syzygy]

I am so sick of surfing the net and seeing a half naked woman on every page. I have been very hurt by someone else's use of porn and it just makes me sick! My former roommate, a straight male, even said he got sick and tired of women's crotches being forced in his face to try to sell him something. I love the female body. I have one. I just think this is so wrong that my form is being fed to perverts every second. It is dangerous to us, women. I don't know that there is anything we can do? But I won't buy a product that uses a beautiful female body to SELL SOMETHING.

[MissWaverly]

1. I agree with you

when you take away somebody's identity then it leads to abuse. It makes women look bad; and I don't think it is necessary to sell a product. I remember when I was a kid, the ads were like
here's a mom selling you something. It worked, why is it so different now. It is so bad, that
sometimes after an ad is over, I cannot tell what they were selling.

[DemExpat]

2. I also agree with you.

And never buy things that are advertised in this manner.

I like car ads with family themes - even though my kids are grown now, these ads are much more effective for me than sexy ones!

But I guess this targets other age groups and attitudes!

DemEx

[lildreamer316]

I have a unique view on this situation.

I am an exotic entertainer. Have been for 13 years (been at home mostly for the last 3 because I had a baby-I work about 3 times a year now). My husband is a dj in this industry for 16 years and is also a house and breaks dj as well as a lighting and sound tech.
Surprisingly enough; I agree with you also. The over-exposure of the female form in this crass and casual manner; just to sell a different product; is detrimental to all. I do not expect anyone to understand how I can say that coming from my profession; but let me tell you briefly that what I do is a psychological thing; or it should be. You have to understand that when I started; (believe it or not) it was still seen as something of an art or a skill to be acquired. There were certain rules and understood lines you did not cross. Men are not coming to see me because they want a prostitute, they most often come to see me for companionship with no pressure on them (expectations; etc.) I could spend all day explaining what is really going on (and why this new generation of girls who think they are living "Girls Gone Wild" have NO CLUE what the hell they are doing to themselves and the industry! SHeesh don't get me started!)but it would take more time and better writing skills than I possess. I hope that anyone reading can have an open enough mind to understand some of what I am not saying.
ANYway; I do agree with your complaint because it is causing many people/souls to desensitize themselves to the value, beauty, and uniqueness that is a woman and her body. Ostensibly, it is a good thing to not have as many social taboos as we used to have, that prevented women from expressing themselves and being able to take care of their bodies and their psyches as equals. However; the ridiculous overuse of this marketing tool is very offensive. I find it so because I am just completely SICK and TIRED of the corporations' ever-increasing desperate need to SELL SELL SELL. It's kind of like the fear mongering that the administration is engaged in. We can step back and see what they are doing, and the depths to which they will sink to get us to buy what they are selling is disgusting.
See; many people see what I do as "whoring" myself. However; I am there of my own free will; with the freedom to leave anytime I want. The only thing I am "selling" is my time, company, and a fantasy. I make the decisions and am in control of the situation.The customer must come IN the club to see me; I am not out in public bombarding everyone with what I am trying to "sell". It is the CUSTOMER's choice to actively approach. These companies are using the woman's body to sell something OTHER than what is presented; and these women are not as in control of who sees them and what is done with their image; etc. etc. I consider that to be a form of false advertisement in a serious way, and certainly much more "whoreish" that what I do.
But, that's just my opinion.
I hope that knowing this about me does not bother you considering your past history. I do understand that also..My best friend (whom I met at work over 12 years ago!) had an ex who destroyed their relationship because of porn. She is the most beautiful woman I know; and obviously of an open (very intelligent)mind and free spirit. This betrayal has haunted her relationships ever since.
Comfort yourself with the fact that it is quite apparent that this marketing technique has just about run its' course; and the pendulum must swing back the other way. Balance is the natural state of things. I do not know what form it will take; but it should be soon....
(Sorry about punctuation mistakes)

[I Have A Dream]

5. lildreamer, I think that your attitude is very healthy, and I...

am mpressed by how much you have thought the issue through. It doesn't surprise me because you seem to be a person of integrity who would want to be certain that you weren't stepping over a personal boundary in your chosen profession.

:hug:

[lildreamer316]

6. Thanks so much, Dream.

I know it is hard for some to understand why I do what I do...but I love it completely and it is very freeing (in the right atmosphere! But that's another disucssion). I am upset often because many women, who have had experiences like votesnomore; are understandably hostile to me. I wish I could help them undersand the difference; and to help them feel better about what happened. I feel as if I am often on the "front lines" of the result of popular culture's attitudes about women; and I see first-hand the effect this type of advertising/marketing has. It is facinating; and sometimes disturbing. You'd be suprised what is really in the male psyche...
Thanks for the kind words; as always. I am honored.

[DemExpat]

14. May I be direct in asking a few questions, lildreamer?

I do admire women who can feel and exercise such freedom while maintaining clear boundaries, but also have some mixed feelings of my own about motivations of women in this type of work.

I don't want to post any direct questions without knowing if you would appreciate them and not take them as a personal judgment on what you do, for I have great respect for you, your honesty and openness, and your spirit in this group.

:hug:

DemEx

[lildreamer316]

21. Oh certainly.

If I'm going to expose my body to whoever is paying for it at a job; I can certainly expose my mind to you here in this group! (just a little joke!)

It is a facinating study. Ask away. If there is anything I REALLY don't want to answer here; I'll just PM you. All I ever ask is for no judgement; and I know I won't get any from you here. Thank you for the kind words.

[bliss_eternal]

9. Hi lildreamer--

:hi: I've read a lot about the industry and I know what you say is true. There was a time that dancing was seen as more of an art form AND there wasn't the "pandering" to the clients that is now an expected part of the industry (lap dances, private dances, etc.). Boundaries were very clear and explicit and the women working in clubs were strictly "look but don't touch." I spoke personally with a woman that shifted to dj-ing and private parties only because she hated the shift to what it's become. She told me she used to feel like a goddess as an exotic dancer and enjoyed it a great deal.

Thanks so much for sharing your perspective. I appreciated reading it!

[Why Syzygy]

11. I don't have a problem with what you do..

and you make very good points. What you do is open and given and accepted on a freewill basis.

The danger I have noted of late is the sneakiness, the little dirty secret kind of thing. I didn't realize I was being put in the position of dirty little secret for over a year. But I found out he had many dirty little secrets, in the guise of porn. Over 150 of them. He is unable to function as a real man, as I know, I was married to one, because of an obsession with video productions showing idealized women whom I'm pretty sure he believes are just there to get him off.

I was his best friend and 'lover' (which is now a joke) for 18 months. But he was never able to give himself to me because of a 'hang up' which I discovered included violence. I don't know what else to blame other than the rampant use of a near nude female body and women who do not accept their sacred role.

I used to go into a convenience store to buy beer on occasion and there are big posters of semi nude bodies EVERYWHERE. One night I joked and asked the cashier, do one of them come with a beer purchase? I mean really. Isn't that the assumption? Buy a beer, get a p****** with big ones? It is so objectifying. I grew up during women's lib and I thought we got beyond this. But no. It has gotten way worse, girlfriends. And it does end up hurting us all. It also destroys the men that we would love. They become incapable of real love. Then where are we. Either abused or alone. Yes, color me disillusioned.

[MissWaverly]

13. thank you for your post

the thing that you mention is that what you do is a one on one type thing, you have power because you are a partner, you certainly would not want to see it in every subway, on billboards, on the back of every magazine and on Tv.

[lildreamer316]

3. Dupe.

[cassiepriam]

4. I must go to only boring sites, I never see naked women on the Internet.

I go to astrology, political sites. Amazon and LL Bean. Nothing too exciting.

But I agree with you.

The research shows that men are very visual in their sexual arousal patterns. And if you can arouse them they buy more. The advertisers have figured this out. There has to be some limits however or they are going to turn off the female buyer. As to when common decency will over rule greed, I wish I had an answer.

[NJCher]

7. same here

There were a couple times I put something in a search engine, though, that I thought twice about and thus never hit the "enter" button. Terms that could double for a term on a search for porno. Example: looking for lyrics to the 60s song "Sugar Shack."

My point is that if you're the only user of your computer, you can maybe avoid this by being diligent about what you put in the search engines. Also, run Spybot and Ad-Aware a lot, like every week, at least.

Here's the deal with the use of sex in ads. Sex and death are the two weak points in the human psyche. These are two areas clouded in mystery and where most people have many uncertainties. Anytime an advertiser can get you in the state where you're underconfident or uncertain, you are more likely to buy. This is a simplification, but if you're feeling inadequate, you're ripe for purchasing a solution to end the anxiety.




Cher

[Why Syzygy]

10. The search that set of this rant

was for our local gas company. It is a citysearch thing or something. The ad upset me immediately and I hit back button. It wasn't an out and out porn thing. It was Victoria's Secret. But I have been seeing the same thing on a daily basis for years now while reading my yahoo mail. I just snapped today because of what has recently happened to me at the hands of man who could not/would not control himself. There is no mandate from society to attract him to respecting women. I know there are men who regard woman as sacred, as well they should. But I also know very young girls who are being sexualized way too soon and in my opinion it is due to men gone wild and urging it on.

I love that men love women. My grandad was so conscious of having "impure thoughts" that I saw him literally cover his eyes when he saw a woman in a halter top! I was way younger then and thought that was a little over the top. I've discussed this with my son and he has explained to me that he has learned to control his desires and chanel them in healthy ways. He has a wonderful bride whom he respects and cherishes. He says she is way more loving than he will ever be. She is beautiful and doesn't hide her beauty. She is also European and just free to be a beautiful woman.

Maybe I'm just going through a hurt stage and re-experience a naivety I've had in the past. I do know that this period is a major life transitional period for me. I need to heal. But I don't want to be looking at another woman's belly button while I'm doing it. ugh. sorry .. I haven't read the exoctic dancer's post yet .. but I am certain I respect her choice. We all deserve choice.

[FloridaPat]

15. Same here too. Now the spam emails got really bad. I now edit all

my emails online and delete the ones that are spam. That way I don't have to accidently see the porn.

[cassiepriam]

16. yes I just delete the pornmails without looking at them.

I was going to get my little girl an email account but
now I am not so sure.

[bliss_eternal]

8. I had it happen just the other day...

...so I totally get your complaint and can relate. I was entering a site for research. There's no way I EVER would have expected such a pop up at that sort of site. Not EVER! I was shocked and really put off by it!

It's one thing if one goes looking for such material, which I have no issue with at all--to each his/her own. But to not enter an adult material site and to have that crap pop onto your screen when you aren't expecting it. Bleh! :scared: Not cool at all!

[cassiepriam]

12. I do get daily idiotic spam messages promising a larger penis

and I don't even have one.

I agree for most women this bombardment of internet sex is offensive, and for those who have a history of abuse it is downright painful. I wish advertisers would understand that they are alienating half the buying public with this stuff.

Pornography is the most highly viewed subject on the internet. And more men seem to be getting into web porn addictions.

Someday I think there will have to be some limits placed on all of this, I am not a prude, but women and children should be safe to go to their inboxes and surf the web with being offended.

[FloridaPat]

18. I was working with another programmer. I got the "enlarge the penis"

ads (I'm female too) and he got the "enlarge breast ads", which I don't ever remember getting.

[mntleo2]

17. I Suspect That Porn Addiction Covers Up Something Else

Many years ago, before women had "men" magazines, Cosmopolitan did a nude layout of Burt Reynolds ~ anyone else remember that? For awhile women wanted to have "their" men magazines. At work one day a woman brought a calendar of nude men, so at break, all the women gathered around to look at the man who was the "star" of each month. Of course I went over to look too, but it was more interesting observing the way women behaved looking at those pictures. They were (sort of) acting like men, ooh-ing and ahh-ing over each picture. It did not do a thing for me, and I thought something was wrong with me because I did not even get so much as a tiny thrill looking at those pictures, even though all the women around me seemed to find them sexy. To me they were just a ....picture. It could have been a picture of a house or something, it did not seem to me to be anything special.

In my church was a psychiatrist who was also a sexologist. This is someone who is an expert on human sexuality, plus he was a doctor and a psychologist. He spent a great deal of his time writing, talking, and counseling around this issue. He said there are not many of him because it is hard to study human sexuality, especially human sexual development since they cannot study children's development. This does not mean however that we know nothing about it, just that we do not know much as to what happens between the ages of 0-18 years old psychologically around sexual development.


He led some workshops at a church retreat around the issues of human sexuality in relation to faith. At the workshop, I talked about the calendar at work and how it had not done anything for me. I asked him if something was wrong with me because, well they were just pictures to me but seemed more to my female coworkers. I said, "Don, it was weird, all these women having so much fun and I liked being with the laughing and talking, but to tell you the truth, the pics were a disappointment and I just realized they could have been of a mountain or something, I would have felt the same."

He laughed and told us about a study he had participated in and it revealed a lot to him. He said he studied men and women's strip club behavior, that it was part of his 2nd doctoral dissertation. He said when he went into a men's strip club it was dead silent. The man would more often than not be alone, he would intently watch the dancers and maybe even surreptitiously masturbate. When Don went to a women's strip club, it was completely opposite. It was a big party. Women were laughing and putting money in the guy's trunks, it was definitely a social event where women went together and had fun.

He said the conclusion that was taken from that study was that women's brains are wired differently than men's. Men's brains are wired such that they are more visually stimulated while women's brains are not wired the same. He said that (at that time) his guess was that the women I worked with were behaving like men because they thought that was the way they were "supposed" to act, but if I had asked them, most likely they felt the same way I did. All of the women at that workshop agreed pictures did nothing for them, while the men said they liked seeing pictures of the female form (even a gay man! LOL). I have since had opportunity to ask other women friends and they all say they are just not "turned on" by pics, they are more often turned on by fantasies, sometimes the written word, but never by movies, pictures or the like.

Whereas every man I know is turned on by pictures. I have a friend who spends hours downloading playboy-like pictures and categorizing them, making scrapbooks of specific women, you name it. He is single and this is his thing and he is not hurting anyone. My sons are the same way. I also noticed that they seem to be more stimulated by watching say, superheros or something like that when they were little. Don says this is part of their brains structure.

My point here is that we women can learn about the make-up of males and then perhaps we will not expect men to be like us. The more we make the way they are as somehow being "twisted" and call something they were made to be a "sickness", the more likely we will just make men become secretive and perhaps then it will become a sickness.

We women have our own fantasies and our own way and this is good too. I would not want to be around some man who was like out of a romance novel. And I have found that men who looked at those pictures, but knew that is all they are ~ eye candy, were the men I have found to be the most interesting to me. Thanks to Don, the men who I feel the most comfortable around are men who like me for who I am not because I fit some fantasy. And now I am sorry for women who are determined to look like those picture, to me it is like they are trying to look like a cartoon, now. And men who expect women to be like some ...cartoon are not being realistic about the person they profess to love and they might have some issues. Physical love can be a communion and it can be something to share, but if we women are so self-conscious feeling like we do not fit some cartoon caricature of ourselves, IMO we also have some issues, lol.

Porn addiction is a sad thing, and I believe it can "objectify" women as well as makes them appear we are something we are not. Cindy Crawford said once she could "only wish" she really looked like the airbrushed perfect woman she saw of herself when her pictures were finished. It was a MAN'S fantasy, not who she really was. Those pop-up pics are ads that are appealing to men's eyes in hopes they will let that "direct connection" rule and make a sale. There was a time that 80% of computer usage was men getting access to stuff that they could view without having to expose themselves to the world going out and looking for them at some porn shop. I am not making this up, lol.

These things might be good to keep in mind if you are looking for a partner.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[FloridaPat]

19. I remember the Burt Reynolds pic. Oh yes. As for pictures of sexy

men, I really get a kick of them. And you can take that anyway you want. The ad with all the ladies drooling over the guy drinking Pepsi or Coke or whatever. I was drooling too. I have a couple of girl friends that think the same way. And no, we are not acting like me. A sexy guy is a sexy guy and I have a healthy imagination.

I get a kick out of male photographers and artists who like to photograph or paint female forms because they are beautiful, and there is no sex in their brains. Sure. I got to draw a male nude once. Also went to male strip clubs. No - it's about sex.

As for going after nude men on the interent - just not worth the time. Pron doesn't do anything for me. Actually it does make my stomch twist in disgust.

[lildreamer316]

20. NAIL on head!!! (And a slight thing about one point)

"My point here is that we women can learn about the make-up of males and then perhaps we will not expect men to be like us. The more we make the way they are as somehow being "twisted" and call something they were made to be a "sickness", the more likely we will just make men become secretive and perhaps then it will become a sickness. "

EXACTLY!!!!!! Do you KNOW how RIGHT you are?? I wish more women could understand this point!
I want to add that Dr. John Gray's series of lectures about the Mars Venus thing is very very clear about this; it really IS worth watching and I highly recommend it to everyone.

However, just as a side note; I want to point out to whomever may be interested that THIS: "He said when he went into a men's strip club it was dead silent. The man would more often than not be alone, he would intently watch the dancers and maybe even surreptitiously masturbate.",is patently NOT true anymore; and has not been since I've been in the biz. The industry (men's clubs) strives for a standard of a "party" atmosphere. The best and only time for me to make money was when my club was throwin' down. THIS is what makes it so addictive to me--at it's best; I am working in an all-night party where everyone is laughing and singing along and joking and being entertained by the girls and being teased by the dj and .....acting the way the person from your church was saying the ladies in the male strip club acted. My point is that I wonder if this may possibly be an indicator of the roles and relationships between men and women changing; or of a different development in human sexuality (in a sense). It would be facinating to find out,eh?

To Votes: sorry about going in a differet direction than your original point. I do understand and agree with your irritaition with the marketing tool that the image of some women's bodies have become; as I said..

[mntleo2]

23. This Study Was Over 30 Years Ago

...I am sure you are right as the conversation I described took place over 20 years ago and so strip clubs have changed. It seems a lot more healthy to me to see men having fun instead of sneaking off someplace ~ whether it is in their studies watching porn or going to a dance place.

Still men need to be men IMO. They are more visually stimulated and we as women should never expect them to be like us ~ as I adamently refuse to be a man when they expect us to be like them, lol.

My partner is sick and unable to be, well a partner now. However I will never forget how delighted he was once when he tentatively told me he was going out with friends to a strip club. It was almost like a confession, lol. I told him to go, have some fun and when he came back to me, tell me all about the woman he had a crush on. We never had so much fun when he got back! LOL! He told me years later that that gave him dignity and he never felt the need to go again, or hide Playboys under the bed, because well, he knew he could be whomever he was with me. I would not judge him or call him names or be angry that he found some other female body beautiful and he felt understood as a man.

It is interesting how a sexual relationship can take an almost spiritual life. Before my partner I had had relationships that were so-so and I believed it was a myth that sex could be a communion ~ but that was before I understood men better. I suspect my liberal ideas helped that, and for that I am glad I was!

He said so many of his friends told him he was so lucky to have me as a partner (and I am no beauty. I am overwieght and plain to say the least) because he was free to be who he was. It helped me to be a good partner I hope, lol. Of course that goes two ways, I also was free to be who I am and this was a wonderful thing for me as well. I am an odd woman, not one to fit into a box and he knows that and loves that in me warts and all, too. I am glad I realized early on in our relationship that being a man was different than being a woman and it was thanks to people like Dr Don who enlightened me as to how men think, as I mentioned in the post above.

Love
Cat

[lildreamer316]

24. My goodness.

What you said there moved me very much. Your partner is lucky to have you; even now that you are not able to have a fully physical relationship. I would wish the kind of spirituality you describe on all; wouldn't you? You are so right about it being that way with the right person. I am glad that he had a good experience, and am also glad that he never felt the need to go again. Honestly, strip clubs should, in my opinion, eventually serve the need for enhancement of relationships (some people really like it for that) mostly, and not as a substitute for one. That's quite some ways into the future, probably well past my lifetime! (LOL) Heh--I can dream.
And again, you are very perceptive to note that the fact that he was able to be who he really was with you is quite a defining factor--THAT is the number one reason most men come to a strip club besides pure loneliness. It's interesting that the looks of the dancer don't,in the end, really matter...if she is showing him attention and, in a word, doing her job (which means making him feel comfortable and allowing him to be himself). Men who have a partner at home who does the same will realize this and not feel the need to look for it somewhere else (OR better yet,they'll bring her along! hee hee).
You know, it's strange...these days, I end up liking men in general (for friends) better than I like most women. I understand they way they think. I begin to wonder if I've been predominantly male in my past lives. Eh, that's another story,and here I go further hijcaking the thread. Damn Leo tendencies.

I am so glad you have the kind of relationship you do. You are beautiful no matter what you think your "outside" is.

[cassiepriam]

22. Yes men and women are wired very differently in some areas.

Sexual arousal patterns for example.

[marions ghost]

25. as far as

women's bodies being used to sell consumer products...I agree, it's gone to the extreme. It used to be billboards, magazines and TV, but now it's right in your face on a computer screen. Wish more men who feel the way your roommate does would voice his objection directly to the source (of course that can be more difficult with the ubiquitous internet ads, but it can be done). Coming from men, objection has weight. Coming from women it means little, except that she paid attention to the ad (which they count as a plus). Probably they just consign her complaint to the "feminist" trash receptacle.

It would be great if there were some kind of organization for men and women to join, for the purpose of criticizing this cheap and degrading use of women's body images. "Adbusters" may get into this area--not sure. There are some men who are not susceptable to this kind of advertizing and while they may find the picture gets their attention, they also know that selling with sex is a clear indicator of a product to be avoided. Their brain can override their instincts.

It's sad what this does to women who are sensitive to it. I know that all my life I've dressed like a bag lady to avoid any association with these creepy ad images. I want to make it crystal clear that I don't participate in this cultural imperative of excessive display. You have to draw some boundaries. Women in business, political, or media situations displaying themselves a la Katherine Harris are pathetic and to be avoided IMO. I don't want to see deep cleavage, transparency and micro minis in business offices, schools, public service. (How anybody wants to dress at parties, performances, or casually is their business). And pity the poor TV talking heads, paid to look like the media whores they generally are. What a life.

But why should I feel I have to go to the opposite extreme in order to counterract this? In some ways it makes me feel like I have to deny my sex, which I really don't want to do. That's not healthy and is sort of neurotic. But this culture leaves me no choice. Why should any of us have to be swamped by the images of women as sex objects everywhere? It's definitely gotten worse with the internet.