"We atheists have to accept that most believers are better human beings"

[Taxloss]

A very provocative piece by Roy Hattersley (who, for the uninitiated, was a very senior Labour politician in the 1980s).

Snip:

"The Salvation Army has been given a special status as provider-in-chief of American disaster relief. But its work is being augmented by all sorts of other groups. Almost all of them have a religious origin and character.
Notable by their absence are teams from rationalist societies, free thinkers' clubs and atheists' associations - the sort of people who not only scoff at religion's intellectual absurdity but also regard it as a positive force for evil.

"The arguments against religion are well known and persuasive. Faith schools, as they are now called, have left sectarian scars on Northern Ireland. Stem-cell research is forbidden because an imaginary God - who is not enough of a philosopher to realise that the ingenuity of a scientist is just as natural as the instinct of Rousseau's noble savage - condemns what he does not understand and the churches that follow his teaching forbid their members to pursue cures for lethal diseases."

And so on. I feel that Roy is not comparing like with like here - non-religious charities ARE helping out, and you could hardly expect the Freedom From Religion Foundation (with a permanent staff of about three) to do much to help.

[onager]

1. See James Randi's site this week

http://www.randi.org

Some Fundie wrote in to berate the rationalists for not helping enough. And to complain that Randi was advertising TAM and urging people to "go to Las Vegas and spend money" instead of donating to charity. (Apparently it never occurred to the asshat that some people are doing BOTH.)

[BiggJawn]

2. Well.....I know *I* have and I'd bet YOU have, too....

Known "Believers" who were just the WORST people to be around. Either the "Sin all week and get forgiven on Sunday" bunch, or the joyless curmudgeons who see "Satan" in EVERYTHING, or the Charaltans like M. G. Robertson and Rod Parsley....

And the ones who give because they think they're going to remind "St. Peter" of it some day..("Oh, give him back his 20 bucks and tell'im to go to Hell!")

[Taxloss]

3. I was thinking that Roy should consider the parable of the widow's mite.

Or do a detect the merest hint of a guilty conscience from his piece?

[Synnical]

4. Gotta link for that?

Thanks.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[beam me up scottie]

5. See first thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=263x10422

It leads to an infuriating R&T thread that has the link.
The mod did right by us on this one.
You don't see that often on DU.

[Synnical]

6. Thanks

:)

[NoodleBoy]

7. I guess he's forgetting that the nonreligious community has no place to go

once a week for the purpose of having our beliefs reinforced and sometimes give money.

that seems to be the biggest thing people forget, on either side of the issue-- that in some cases, entire communities are centered around a church, which in turn effects the beliefs of everyone. There are no secular churches to go to, there is no relief organization whose second goal is to spread the word of science, and being involved in either such thing, religious or secular, has no bearing on how "good" a "human being" you are.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

8. I smell the old "I am a lifelong Democrat but" routine. (nt)

[enki23]

9. oh, bullshit

.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

10. Well, yeah, but it's popular bullshit.

That just makes it all the more annoying.

[Az]

11. A misunderstanding of social dynamics

As individual an atheist is just as likely to be a compassionate giving person as the next believer you come across. And while it is true that the majority of charities in action helping people are secular it is also true that the number of charitable orgs structured around religious orgs far out number charitable orgs based on atheist principles.

This has nothing to do with our connectivity to the community. It has far more to do with the organizing impetus and methodology of religious institutions compared to atheist institutions.

Atheists unfortunately tend to organize around reactions to religious orginizations. Simple fact is if there were no theists we would not even have to recognize ourselves as atheists. The recognition of atheism only comes about as the antithesis of the existance of theists. Declaring oneself an atheist is only necissary due to the prominence of theists.

Thus our organizations tend to follow similar tracks. And while religious institutions form to perpetuate its own teachings atheist orgs form to defend against these orgs and support one another. The upshot is the driving forces behind these structures are entirely different.

Religious institutions (the institutions not the people) care only about growing. They are dynamic and use a variety of tactics to bring new peopel to them. With millenia of development behind them there are many traditions and institutions inherant to their structure that guide their actions.

Atheistic institutions tend to be more deliberate. Devoid of traditions(except for constant infighting) they are only focused on actions abiding by the current best set of ideas. This keeps the institution from becoming something more than just the sum of its parts. It does not become an entity unto itself.

Upshot of all this is that charity serves religions purpose. It has done so for centuries. It is part and parcel of the teachings. Adherants follow this notion and contribute in large numbers. Charity is part of our social nature and religion appeals to this nature.

Atheists as individuals can be just as charitable as anyone else. But our social organizations that promote atheism are focused on other matters. We do not have the numbers or the money at this time to develop such structures within our groups. And this is a problem.

Atheism for atheism's sake is nothing. It is just the antithesis of theism. If by some means the world were suddenly rid of all theistic beliefs atheism would cease to need to be a focus for anyone.

It is not that atheists are lesser people than believers. It is simply that our world has been dominated by groups that believe and as a result a growing and nurturing path has not developed in group dynamics that is free of religious belief.

[Taxloss]

12. It's Az! Az is back!

SO good to see you!

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[Az]

13. Hi there

:D Seeping back into the political arena. Good to see some of the faces still here.

[Book Lover]

14. Like a cool drink of water

It's lovely to see you back, Az :-)

[funflower]

15. There are many secular organizations that provide aid to those in need.

Doctors Without Borders, Mercy Corp, the Red Cross (whatever it's quasi-religious history, it is not currently a religious organization) for starters....