I may take some flak for this.

[trotsky]

OK, I was just thinking about the tsunami and the whole "god works in mysterious ways" line of reasoning. And I started to wonder - isn't that kind of relationship with one's creator god sort of like abused spouse syndrome? Time after time, the world proves nasty, brutal, uncaring. People are hurt, killed, raped, etc. But the theist must, in order to reconcile these things with a merciful, all-powerful god, assume that there is a greater good being served. That somehow, someday, everything will be OK and we'll understand why life here can be so miserable. As long as I keep doing my part to please my god.

Doesn't that sound like a battered spouse?

[BurtWorm]

1. The theistic impulse originated from a desire to placate those angry gods

I believe. So-called primitive theists have a very dark understanding of the cosmos. It's just sappy moderns who think of their God as essentially on their side.

[trotsky]

2. You are right, I forgot about that.

Even early Judaism - written right there in the Christian bible - made a big deal about burnt offerings and all that jazz.

[progressoid]

3. 'mysterious ways' is a great catchall rationalization

When I used to debate theists in my youth, I would make a rule that they couldn't use the "god works in mysterious ways" bit as an argument. It was an easy out for many of them.

It's not fair to generalize, but I think a lot of believers are not equipped, mentally and/or emotionally, to question the belief system they use. They haven't even made it past the elementary story telling phase - it's like Santa for adults.

Other relatively intelligent believers (like my parents) simply dismiss many of these old testament stuff as just tales. They stick to the more ethereal stuff that science can't debunk. Yet they too, don't delve too deeply into the history or contradictions of their religion. To do so may reveal things they don't want to know.

Ironically, the "mysterious" nature of God is what holds onto many. The contradictory nature of much of the bible gives them the impression that god is too complex and vast to understand. It's a great puzzle to explore (but not too much).

I don't know the intricacies of spouse abuse but I think that religion seems to highlight our ability to overlook the obvious flaws in order to fill a void.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. You may tell them this:

"There is a difference between 'complexity' and 'contradiction.' Look it up.

[lapislzi]

4. Ummm...not necessarily

Your theory posits a deity that is involved in the affairs of the world. It ain't necessarily so.

There are theistic models that posit a remote or uninvolved creator or prima causa. The Blind Watchmaker is just such a model. Or, that the human mind cannot comprehend the magnitude of the deity, and can only approach said being via a series of steps or intermediaries.

So, yes, theoretically, if the so-called personal god existed, then said being would either be capricious, petulant, and arbitrary, OR said being would have some big plan in mind that we mortals couldn't comprehend, a la god's question to Job: "Where were you when I laid the cornerstone of the world?" Although your question is as old as religion (and tragedy) itself, you can't win with either line of reasoning.

Therefore, the simplest solution is to dispense with the deity, imo. Shit happens.

[Az]

5. Yes, it is very similar

Though it is more nuanced than simply being a religious issue.

You will find this relationship with any form of misunderstood phenomena. It has to do with a very common aspect of our psychology.

As we are developing our minds we come to realise that we exist. From here we soon discover that other things seem to be similar to us. We project our notion of existance onto them and begin to learn to identitfy personalies in this way.

But our projection does not end there. Once learned we begin projecting identity onto anything that exhibits charactristics. Dogs, cats, fire, weather, nature, etc. Anything that exhibits patters of behaviour we project identity onto.

Eventually we learned that some of these things do not have an identity as we have learned humans do. So society developed theories moving the identity further back into the woodwork. Thus we began theorising that perhaps the wood wasn't infused with a spirit but perhaps it was a spirit that created the wood and controled the weather.

Because things such as the weather can affect our lives and we had imbued them with personalities (whether it was the weather or something controling it) we sought means of appeasing it when it threatened us.

This is all that is needed for symptoms similar to spousal abuse to show up. Our continued attempts to appease an entity that does not exist leads to us blaming ourselves for the ills that follow. This in turn leads us to believe that we are not worthy of saving and that any offer of salvation is amazingly magnanimous on the part of whoever offers it to us.

[OrwellwasRight]

15. "attempts to appease an entity that does not exist

leads to us blaming ourselves for the ills that follow"

But what does it mean to "blame ourselves?" It seems to me that the most religious folks blame others, not themselves.


E.g., after 9/11, the Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson started talking about how it was the fault of gays, and feminists, and "abortionists," when they could have examined how the US projects its power so arrofgantly around the world and maybe we should examine that.

I just don't see much self-examination coming out of religion. I find that many (though not all) use religion to avoid exactly that.

[leftofthedial]

6. if there were a "God"

and that god behaved like the on in the bible,

I'd hate the sadistic, psycho son of a bitch, not worship it.

[Az]

8. I had a friend and fellow debater

who would often state that if there were a god that he would walk up to him and kick the snot out of him. Of course this guy was almost taken down by a squirrel once. Great guy. But really didn't like the God described in the bible.

[GOPFighter]

7. No flak here

You're so right. Yesterday I received a long religious email from a woman I have to work with on a committee. It was so full of God is good, God is great, these are definitely the last days, etc. ect. and I kept thinking, should I ask her just what she bases her praise on. Think of all the horrific deeds done in the name of God in the past 2,000 years and not a peep out of God.

How could "God the Father" let scores of priests bugger a hundreds of little trusting kids. And God did nothing to stop it. If my father knew I was being molested and did nothing about it, that would be called child abuse, but the religious folks just keep singing his praises.

[fshrink]

9. You can see that in

many syndromes, including the "battered wife" but also the battered child. The key idea is the internalization of the punishment, which is made possible, and necessary, by the love and dependence felt for the batterer.

[trotsky]

10. Great point, fshrink.

No wonder you're a shrink. ;-)

[fshrink]

11. T'was a late call... The only way I thought

to implement change.... After the dead revolution of the sixties.

[JNelson6563]

13. Yes, always trying to curry favor with abuser

Classic stuff. :toast:

[Taxloss]

14. "It's me! It's me! It has to be me! How can it be the one I love?"

You're on the money.