Image and tactics

[Az]

What can we do to improve our image and set about making our case seem more reasonable to people?

[lazarus]

1. I don't think it's possible, Az

I think the people have been convinced we are all a bunch of angry haters, just like they are convinced of all the negative stereotypes of every other minority the extreme right hates.

Things are so polarised now, I can't see us ever reaching common ground.

[fshrink]

2. Even if we were sweet as saccharine,

we'd generate the same kind of crap. The only common ground possible is separation of church and state, which also happens to be constitutional. But that's apparently too much to ask. Anything short of that means the shaft.

[progressoid]

3. Interestingly, I'm going through a little

of this now with my family. It's a delicate path to walk. Thanks to many of you, I have a few more tools to help open the minds of my kids a little more. But, it's tricky to get them to think critically without sounding judgmental (and not making them, their friends, the rest of our family, and most of the globe soud like loonies).

I think what you posted elsewhere about being civil is important, but can only have an impact on sensible people. There are a lot of believers that can't even attempt a calm discussion let alone understand us. Having said that, there are times when I want to scream at them and tear out whats left of my hair. Ironic, since they have about as much chance of convincing me that I will burn in hell as I have of convincing them that god is a sock.



One more thought. Is making our case more effective in person than with online forums? Seems like many people are less flexible on the internets. Dunno for sure.

[Tafiti]

4. I agree. I don't think...

...image nor tactics will help at all. From my own experience, in order to question such deeply held beliefs - like religious ones - one has to make a decision for himself to open his mind to other points of view. No amount of facts or truth will even dent the surface if they aren't open to the possibility that they could, in fact, be hearing truth and fact, and not already possess it themselves. No matter how atheists act or present themselves, religious people will only see an empty, self-indulgent, amoral, misguided soul. Find an open mind, and you will find someone willing to listen.

[fshrink]

9. "an empty, self-indulgent, amoral, misguided soul"

Hey! That's me!

[trotsky]

5. The frustrating part is, most people do buy into our side somewhat.

One fact to keep in mind is that never in the history of the country - not even in colonial days - has the majority of the population been regular churchgoers.

That means that on a certain level, MOST Americans are freethinkers. Religion is accommodated in their lives when it's convenient. They don't fear the wrath of God just because they don't attend church every week or maybe they cuss or lie frequently. A lot of people "get it." They've just been ingrained with stereotypes and prejudices about those of us who have OFFICIALLY renounced that which they have PRACTICALLY done.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

6. Forget adults. Take back the schools.

Try to do to their children what THEY are doing to ours -- educate them into our side.

[Az]

7. How?

I mean without having the adults on our side. We are not insignificant but we are in the minority. If we just decide on our own to do these things we will accomplish nothing. We need people of reason who happen to be believers on our side. If we flail at the very idea of belief we may well lose them.

[lazarus]

8. The right wing fundies are in the minority, too

They took over by taking over the school boards. They did this by having their churches turn out en masse for every local election.

If we could do the same thing, we could take back the schools.

[progressoid]

10. True. And they have been slowly eating away at any reality based

curriculum.

They also have help from the media to spread their warped view. Think of all of the TV that pushes religion (7th Heaven, Joan of Arcadia, Touch by an Angel, CBN, etc). And how many more cover stories can TIME run about the mysteries of Jesus?

Shit, I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it. I think AZ is right - the image of the angry atheist is an attitude to avoid. But, frankly, if some dumb ass wants to slap a creationist sticker in my kids text books, I'm going to raise holy hell about it. Subtly, of course.

[Az]

11. Fight

But fight smartly. We do not have the numbers or the natural organizational tendencies of the religious right. We also do not have the camoflage of having cover from other nonbelievers.

We need to learn from other groups that have managed to fight for their rights. We need something other than just being right(presumptive aren't I :D ).

[lazarus]

12. My first thought

was the Civil Rights battle. Numbers are about the same.

Then I realised that most of the coordination of the Civil Rights movement took place in churches, and they were led by a Reverend.

Oops.