Let's face it, at least I will,

[fshrink]

It is nearly impossible to have a discussion over at DU which simultaneously involves politics and a large number of participants. Like, a debate on issues that do not involve some sort of morals. Look at the long posts: creation, values, and so on and so forth. There are a, very, few exceptions but by and large that's it. Let's face it, even confronted with a situation absolutely appaling, the like of which would have been a nightmare to imagine say 10 years ago, a situation which in effect opens this country to an endless dictatorship, progressives still endlessly babble about crap. And on and on and on and on. It has even been getting worse as of late, since the presidential selection. You would think that here, among the 30 or 40 non-believers of us, things would be different. Nope! Still talking about religion. I don't know fellows, but I begin to feel like star-gazing more and discussing less. Couldn't we use our advantage (i.e. not being buried under tons of delusions) to actually reflect and discuss poilitical issues?!

[leftofthedial]

1. how does reason combat emotion, fear and delusion in Murkan politics today

?

what can we do to stop the damage the RW fundies are wreaking, neutralize their political clout, and remove superstition and irrationality from our political landscape?

Any ideas?

[Modem Butterfly]

2. Sounds like a good suggestion, however

I think there should be a place on DU for a clear-eyed discussion of religion and its impact on society and on ourselves as non-believers in particular. I believe that while this topic shouldn't dominate our discussion, I also believe that it is the proverbial "elephant in the room" of American politics and that to completely ignore it would also be a mistake. As a group, we need to find a way to strike a happy balance between politics and religion.

[fshrink]

3. Completely agree with both of you.

If not action, at least reflection, which is a form of action would be welcome.
We could take up Skinner's question on GD and discuss it here for example. Discuss strategies about content: where to aim, etc... I don't know... We could give a sort of a shape to what you mention (i.e. the perspective of non-believers) on a political plane. I am pretty suer that if we do that more of us will join here and the discussion might get richer and more productive.

[Tafiti]

4. Seriously, every single person here at DU, who call themselves...

...a progressive, needs to read "Don't Think of an Elephant: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate" by George Lakoff. I think it's really important to understand what we're up against, and how conservatives continue to dominate the political landscape. Here's the deal: we all know we're right, that we have superior values despite the "values voters" overwhelmingly going the other way, all the while knowing that the conservative agenda will absolutely ruin this country. One thing Lakoff points out is that we as progressives tend to think, "Well, we have the truth on our side. And when we present the facts and the truth, people will listen and realize they're mistaken (assuming they are rational people)." But it's simply not true, and we have to make ourselves stop thinking it. It's all in language, and the "frames" or concepts that follow as a result of automated brain responses. It's sad to think that it all boils down to fucking semantics, and some might say, "fuck that, I'm not going to get wrapped up in psychological babble, these are the facts." Well, we'll never get anywhere thinking that (even if it's true), and conservatives will tighten their grip and have a stranglehold on progressive values and agendas. Read it, I promise you'll learn something. And it's really short and a fast read (119 pages).

On edit: we're reading this book for the Non-fiction book club in January, and I'm sure a great (and long) discussion will follow. Everyone should get the book and participate. It's that important.

[fshrink]

5. I don't have anything against

"re-framing" per se. I have a Ph.D. in Psychology and I am also a psycho-therapist. There is one thing that we should not ignore either and that is that not everything is "re-framable". In fact, this is in my view one of the big lessons of this pathetic "election". There is a point where you just need to stop trying to convince people and just call a spade a spade. If you don't, you are actually doing a service to the other camp, who is, and I mean IS, not only the specialist of re-framing, but the very incarnation of re-framing.
We should also remember that change is never quick (except in revolutionary situations, which this is not) and that it takes generations to bring a large number of people to a similar level of education, information, concern and critical thinking. Any attempt at accelerating the process is doomed to fail, unless of course, it serves some private interest or aims at marketing something (in which case this becomes a moot point). There is no miracle cure or miracle book of receipes. There is honesty, courage, tenacity and (oh boy..!!!!) PATIENCE. Which a very hard one for me.

[BurtWorm]

6. I'm getting sick of all those evolution threads.

BonjourUSA in the Groupe Francophone is wondering what's up not only with Americans and this issue but with DUers and this issue.

[Modem Butterfly]

8. Evolution as an issue is completely stupid

Even if it weren't settled science, it STILL wouldn't prove the existance of a diety or dieties, and even as settled science it doesn't disprove in and of itself the existance of a diety or dieties. It's nothing but some sort of theological pissing contest for the fundies and I refuse to participate. And I should know, I live in Cobb County, GA.

[BurtWorm]

9. I'm astonished it's such a subject of contention among progressives.

I don't get it.

[fshrink]

11. I know.. .A 7 year-old shows more common sense

and logical abilities. It is true that 7 year-olds are very concrete...

[fshrink]

10. The worts part is that meanwhile

strictly nothing is even said (I'm not even getting into the doing part) thaht could foster some sort of organized rebellion against what appears more and more to be a plain theft of people's vote! If there's something I don't get, it's really that!!! It's like an unconscious resignation that finds solace in... our well-known intellectual opium, without being able to acknowledge it. How many repressed religious among democrats?

[politicat]

7. I got this today in one of my other groups...

The group has been devolving from an atheist activist network into a conservative atheist versus a liberal atheist debating society. I think the list owner finally got tired of it and posted. (Edited for content that's not needed here.)

Basically, I'm taking these as my goals for the next bit - brainstorm and get going.

We, as a community of atheists, have neither the power in numbers and dollars, nor the legal right in our individual not-for-profits to interfere in politics. (Our PACs and 527s aside.)

So our biggest issue is how do we remedy this? How do we recruit, get people interested in fund raising for Secular Coalition for America and Godless Americans PAC? How do we go about getting Secular Caucuses (modeled in the Black Caucus in each party and the Secular Caucus in the Green Party) into all of the political parties? We've done grass roots for a long time and it's gotten us to 16% of the population and a total national organizational membership that hovers around 50,000 people - in other words, 1% of the possible nonreligious. How do we identify and motivate these people - and get them to part with their hard earned cash to defend and extend their rights?

That 4.6 million that constitutes the non-religious in this country come from all points on the political spectrum including the politically agnostic. We can't afford to alienate them by disparaging their political preferences.

In cognitive behavioral therapy - which is what I practice - one of the first things we teach and reinforce is to look forward, not back. So, I've offered a lot of questions that need brainstorming and I'll recap them here:

--> The Non-religious are 16% of the total population of the United States. There are about 50,000 people in the various freethought organizations around the country. That's 1% of the possible non-religious. How do we identify them, appeal to them and motivate them to support our causes?
--> How do we partner with religious organizations that support Separation and freedom of conscience and religion?
--> How do we fund our Political Action Committees, 527s and 501(c)3 not-for-profits so that we can be better positioned to get out message out to our elected leaders and our target population?
--> How can we work to promote positive atheism in the public mind?
--> How do we get Secular Caucuses implemented in all of our national political parties so that we can make sure we have a seat at the table when the party platforms are drawn up?

(Contact me on this one, I'm working on one of the Parties, and the process is similar in all parties.)