Note on clinical practice.

[fshrink]

As a psychologist, I see a pattern according to which believers, and most particularly xians, clearly give preference to medication over psychotherapy, even in mild cases, which could be minimally solved" easily and quickly. The reaction is more potent and quicker with parents bringing their children for treatment and when the first session is productive. The reason is nearly obvious (i.e. believers typically refuse actual self-examination, since this constitutes a form of independent critical thinking and is therefore heretical in nature) but what strikes me more and more is the amazing similarity between religious belief and addiction.

[Warpy]

1. You'd see a more profound difference in a hospital

at the time of death. Atheists and their subcategory of Buddhists seem to have the easiest transition. Evangelicals and hardcore Catholics have a terrible time and fight the process every step of the way. The more fear based the religion, the more misery at death.

I'm not surprised that believers have a horror of the self examination required in talk therapies, though. Religion seems to be a defense mechanism against examining a lot of things.

[fshrink]

2. There is a powerful angle.

Huge potential to cut the bullshit. But then again death is the elephant in the room. Even in nursing homes, in my experience.

[shrike]

3. Sorry, but I chose drugs over talk therapy because talk didn't work

I'm a believer, and I also suffer from clinical depression. Believe me, I talked myself to death. And used other therapies.

Sometimes drugs are the only thing that work.

[fshrink]

5. Efficacy of drugs is not the point.

In addition I was evoking a "pattern" not a rule.

[shrike]

7. Sorry, I didn't mean to be snotty

I was having a knee-jerk reaction to a lot of the anti-drug fervor I see on DU. Some of the folks around here don't seem to realize the help that drugs can give -- some of us.

I didn't mean to insinuate that your point was not valid -- you are the therapist, not I, so you are in a much better position to judge behavior patterns.

You might want to check out a thread on the Mental Health Support Group. A DUer has had success with what sounds to me like a modified form of shock therapy. I first read of practitioners using it a few years ago.

[fshrink]

8. I didn't take it this way.

When I use the word "pattern", it is to describe a trend. Something which tends to occur more often than not, which leaves plenty of room for individual differences.
Yes, medications are helpful. Just like aspirin is helpful. The great misunderstanding with psychotropics is that people tend to look at them like, say, antibiotics and go on from there to look at mental problems as physical, genetic or otherwise. And that is just not accurate. That erroneous perspective further induce us to conveniently ignore ourselves, our desires and conflicts, by the same token promoting consumption and in numerous cases bona fide addiction. How many people know that not a single psychotropic has a clearly defined mechanism of action? When you take a Physician Desk Reference and look up anything, like Prozac, you will always find the same word under mechanism of action: unknown. What we know is that a group of people presenting such and such symptoms will fare significantly better, statistically, than a control group. And even then, how many people understand what "statistically significant" means? Or how the "better" is measured? The error is in generalization, as so often. I can give you a quick fix to most psychological problems though. Revolution. And a life filled with love and productivity.

[shrike]

10. Can't argue with that conclusion

And I must say, the public was sold a bill of goods about psychotropics and what they can do. I remember reading about one doctor who was prescribing them for weight loss (!)
These drugs are serious business and nothing to fool with. No one knows better than I. And yes, I am aware that SSRIs have no "clearly defined mechanism or action." Which is why they're nothing to fool with.
The best description of psychotropic drugs, their side effects and affects, was, believe it or not, in a book about ADD. It was written by two women who are not M.D.s
BTW, I didn't mean to hijack your thread; I realize this is not the point of your discussion.

[Warpy]

6. Everyone is different

Sometimes talk works. Sometimes drugs alone can work. Usually a combination of the two is preferable, although it's rarely done thanks to insurance companies not wanting to invest in labor intensive therapies.

I'm glad you found medication that does a good job for you. It can be a lifesaver, and sometimes it takes a few trials to find the right one.

[Modem Butterfly]

4. That is so true

That explains why folks who spend a great deal of time in thought tend to be free thinkers.

[Gelliebeans]

9. I knew a guy

in high school that was raised in a very fundamental Xian upbringing and he experimented with drugs in high school, became an addict and hit rock bottom. He then returned to Xian church and became "born again". He would recite the bible and lecture everyone of the evils of not living a pure Xian life. :eyes: (I liked him better as a pot head)

He continued to see-saw back and forth for the next 20 years between religion and drugs both to the extremes. He also had 2 younger brothers both raised in the same house and they proceeded with their lives in the same pattern as their older brother (church,drugs,church etc)

At different times over the years I'd spoken with each of them and came to same conclusion, they all wanted a quick fix whether it was drugs or the church. None of them wanted to take responsibility for their own lives.

I wonder just how often psychologists see this with people?

[Modem Butterfly]

14. A friend of mine in high school was exorcised

I had a friend who began acting strangely, talking about hearing us say things to her when we hadn't said anything, seeing people who weren't there, strange obsessions with her body (at one point, she was convinced that she had a twin who had failed to develop stuck beneath her left shoulderblade). We believed that she had schizophrenia, but we weren't sure what to do about it because her mother was a fundie-nut whack-job who thought Psychiatry was of the devil. Unfortunately for my friend, mom ambushed her one night with a group of parishoners from the local church and held an exorcism, which, as you can well imagine, sent her pretty much over the edge. When our friend stopped coming to school, and her mother insisted she had run away from home when we could hear her screaming for help in the basement, we called the cops, DFACS, the school board, and local media.

[shrike]

15. Sad

I remember a quote from the book The Exorcist. Don't know it was fabricated or real, but it went something like this: the best alternative for a "possessed" person is a good psychiatrist. According to the book, a Catholic clergyman stated it in the last century.

Schizophrenia can be such a tragic illness.

[Modem Butterfly]

16. She is much better now

The exorcism, coupled with her mother's unwillingness to seek medical treatment, really hurt her. DFACS got her away from her mom and she was started on anti-psychotics and other drugs. The last time I saw her she was gainfully employed but still had difficulty with interpersonal relationships. I'd like to point out, for anyone who's reading this, that if it weren't for Oregon's Healthcare Initiative, she wouldn't be able to afford much of her medicine.

[shrike]

17. That's great

I like to hear these stories. I remember years ago, a monk at the local monastery suddenly developed full-blown schizophrenia. He was everybody's favorite, a great guy. The other monks tried to keep him with them, 'cause there was literally no place else for him to go. Either his family didn't want him or couldn't deal with him. Don't know what sort of anti-psychotics were available back then, but I doubt he agreed to take any of them. Short of locking him in a room and tying him down the monks couldn't do much to control him. Don't know why he wasn't committed; maybe you could no longer do that to someone at that point. One day he just disappeared -- he was an adult, local authorities said they couldn't do much about it. Never found out what happened to him. I'll never forget that man's eyes -- he was like a being from another planet. A lot of the local people -- we lived out in the country -- used to stop and pick him up and bring him back to the monastery if they saw him out on the road. He was always out wandering.

[Taxloss]

19. Thank heavens she was OK.

"Religion can seriously damage your health", case 14,565,675,232.

[Gelliebeans]

18. that is so sad

I can't believe people are still doing exorcism in this day and age. Then again I am astonished at the rituals in some churches.

I hope your friend found help and the medication she needed.

[BiggJawn]

11. You're just now seeing that?

Maybe because I was "blessed" to spend 9 years working for a ministry in holy-roller TV, but i saw a LOT of that, and i saw it back in the late 80's.

Alcoholics, former druggies, all of them had replaced the addictive dependence on their chemical of choice with "God".

God "saved" them from the booze, the gambling, the porn, the cigarettes, shopping, you name it, GAWD saved them from it.
Gawd, Gawd, Gawd, Gawd, Gawd....Every other word out of their mouths was "Praise GAWD!" or "Name a JEEEEZHUSSSS!"

They went from being booze burn-outs to Bible burn-outs.

Your observations are 100% correst.

[fshrink]

12. I just had 2 cases back to back...

that brought the point home in a rather striking fashion. I am always as open as I can for intakes and in my sessions in general, so that I tend to register other aspects of the material than the ideological ones. But it has come to the point where I am seriously questioning taking xians patients... They jack up my no-shows!

[NMMNG]

13. My experiences in mental health work

I'm a Rehabilitation Specialist in a community based residential mental health program. I've worked in their program for the most intensively affected clients, those with severe MI and those with MI and comorbid developmental disabilities for the past 3.5 years. I also have 18 years experience with developmentally disabled adults who often have had comorbid mental illnesses.

One thing I've notice over the years in this program is that the individuals in this program who have schizophrenia have a high propensity towards pronounced religious obsessions.

Jane, for example, goes to church a minimum of twice a week, reads the Bible for hours each day, writes religious poetry routinely and bases all major and many minor decisions (such as what to do Saturday afternoon) on what she thinks God would want her to do.

John proselytizes and sings hymns incessantly and loudly to all within the sound of his voice. His presence in church is as frequent as Jane's.

Bob was raised by parents belonging to some "charismatic" religion that believed there is a spirit for everything "evil" or "wrong". There is a spirit of drinking, a spirit of premarital sex, a spirit of murder--and a spirit of mental illness. So when little Bob began showing signs of mental illness as a child they did what they felt was right--they had their pastor/reverend perform an exorcism on the child. Now Bob is obsessed with God hating him, thinking he is evil, wanting to send him to Hell, etc. He constantly needs reassurance that none of this is the case.









Really, the very idea of Theism is very much like Schizophrenia. Delusions (think of a preacher yelping about some fairy land called heaven, believing this and imploring others to do the same). Hallucinations (speaking to an imaginary spirit in the sky and actually believing he speaks back to you!). Disorganized speech (speaking in tongues anyone?).


As to similarity between religious belief and addiction I can't say. However I'm going to observe that dynamic. I am transferring to the agency's program for individuals who have MI and a comorbid chemical addiction very shortly. It will be interesting to see if I observe the same link.


:think:

[fshrink]

20. I would agree.

The concept of "mental illness" basically rests on the observation, shared by "common sense" among observers that the individual is not accurately assessing "reality". Now, this opens the usual can of worms of defining what is "reality"... The difference I see between a schizophrenic and a religious vision of the world lies exclusively within the intensity and the flexibility of its manifestations. Most religious individuals are still able to revert to accurate reality-testing, most of the time. The delusional/hallucinatory processes can be successfully isolated from the overall functioning. That's it. This is where the "addictive" part would come in. Schizophrenics cannot live without the stimulation offered by their symptoms, which, although very bothering, still represent a compromise that help them cope with life. Just like the stimulation offered by religious delusions. Or the stimulation offered by a substance. The stimulation is needed more than the meaning. In fact the meaning, and its roots in reality, are bent and forced into shape to accomodate the need for stimulation.

[NMMNG]

21. When tv reflects reality

Schizophrenics cannot live without the stimulation offered by their symptoms, which, although very bothering, still represent a compromise that help them cope with life.


I saw part of a repeated episode of Law and Order SVU recently where a schizophrenic was taken off the street and medicated. Shortly after the meds took effect she killed herself. Detective Benson was saddened and asked "Why?". The psychiatrist explained that the voices she heard (as part of her symptomology) had become like a friend to her, and that when the medications took them away, she became depressed and killed herself.



I'll admit, when I first "lost my religion" about 7-8 years ago, my first feeling was a mixture of anger and disappointment. I remember thinking "everybody has been lying to me all of these years!". I got over it pretty quick, but I can see how others might not.