Was there really a Jesus of Nazareth, now called Christ?

[BurtWorm]

Was he a historic figure in your opinion? Or is he pure myth?

If you think there was a historic figure, you don't have to believe he resembled anything at all like the biblical Jesus. You might subscribe to the theory that he was a revolutionary rabbi and the Bible totally distorts his life, if not his message. But such a theory implies belief in a historical Jesus of some kind.

Or you may believe that the Biblical Jesus is entirely mythological.

[Dookus]

1. Dunno

the actual evidence for his existence is very very slim, but it's certainly possible the myths grew around a real person.

[BurtWorm]

2. It is possible, but the myths are so central to the Jesus we "know"

that it's unlikely there's any resemblance at all between whoever that "real" Jesus was and the Biblical one. It's highly unlikely (to say the least) that the "real" Jesus was the son of God, born of a Virgin, a miracle worker, etc.--i.e., any of the patently mythological things the gospels assert he was. So what is left? The Jewish histories are mute on the "king of the Jews" and "messiah" aspects of the Jesus story. The God-is-love philosophy that Christians have long claimed was so radically new is actually basically a mishmash of Greek stoicism and epicureanism, and it seems to me less central to the religion than the eschatalogical theology. There's no evidence of there ever having been an Aramaic version of the gospels, which seems like a really strange absense for an alleged tributary of Judean Judaism.

So while it may be that it's impossible to know one way or the other, the mythological Jesus is vastly more central to Christianity than any historical person possibly could be. The Jesus we know from the Bible, it seems to me, could never have existed except in myth.

[NashVegas]

3. Don't Know, Don't Really Care

For pretty much the same reason I don't know or care whether Zeus really existed. If he did, well that's neat, but except for the fall-out we've been dealing with for the past two millenia, not much to lose sleep over.

[BigMcLargehuge]

4. I think Jesus of Nazareth is a rewrite of Socrates' death

as captured by Plato. It's a similar story, same fate, rebirth angle added to appeal to the Mystery Religion sects in Rome at the time.

[slutticus]

5. The story of Jesus is also very similar to the legend of Osiris (nt)

[BigMcLargehuge]

6. The Cult of Isis and Osiris was very popular in Rome at the time too

[devinsgram]

8. And Hercules

Both born of virgin mothers, both born on Dec 25th, and so forth.

[Phillycat]

9. Both went through "trials".

[BurtWorm]

11. Subtract these elements, and any other purely mythological ones

from the bio and you really get very close to having nothing left. You wind up with a Jewish man born in Nazareth and dying in Jerusalem. If you also consider that the name Jesus of Nazareth may have been a purely allegorical name, then, really, what is left of the "actual" person Jesus is based on?



Furthermore, since Horus was called "Iusa/Iao/Iesu"76 the "KRST," and Krishna/Christna was called "Jezeus," centuries before any Jewish character similarly named, it would be safe to assume that Jesus Christ is just a repeat of Horus and Krishna, among the rest. According to Rev. Taylor, the title "Christ" in its Hebraic form meaning "Anointed" ("Masiah"77) was held by all kings of Israel, as well as being "so commonly assumed by all sorts of impostors, conjurers, and pretenders to supernatural communications, that the very claim to it is in the gospel itself considered as an indication of imposture . . ."78 Hotema states that the name "Jesus Christ" was not formally adopted in its present form until after the first Council of Nicea, i.e., in 325 C.E.79


The above etymology of Jesus' name and a fuller case for the mythical Jesus is made at this Website:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

[immoderate]

14. Thanks for that. I always wondered at the term "The Christ"

--IMM

[asthmaticeog]

7. There were zillions of redeemer-cults in ancient Judea.

That sort of thing happens to occupied peoples rather a lot, and its especially understandable when it happens to a people with a powerful temple-state, run by storied dynasty, in its past. One of those redeemer cults took off in a BIG way. Whether its central figure was actually a Nazarene named Joshua is entirely beside the point. If he was real, points awarded for being such a nervy anti-priesthood provocateur!

[BurtWorm]

10. "Whether he existed is entirely beside the point"

I strongly agree with that, from a big picture sense. But a Christian who takes the Nicean creed seriously, on the other hand, should have a big problem with that. Whether he existed is precisely the point if you're a Christian, at least as the religion has been defined down to our time.

If I were a maker of rules, I would insist that references to Jesus's birth and death in the public marketplace of ideas, rather than the strictly Christian one, always include the disclaimer word "alleged." Omitting that word, it seems to me, is doing the Christian propagandist's work for him.

[lil-petunia]

12. those christ thumpers stole all sorts of ideas from others. nothing

original at all.

Caanites, hebrews, and many, many more were the true basis.

JC was mostly myth, even if some hairy, dirty, smelly charismatic with his gang of 12 and some hookers existed.

[SlackJawedYokel]

24. Heh.

JC was mostly myth, even if some hairy, dirty, smelly charismatic with his gang of 12 and some hookers existed.
Hahaha... I'm gonna have to remember that one.
Thanks.

I'm gonna agree here mostly because I see it as a really good example of that kids game "telephone" which spiraled into deliberately constructed myth.

Folks within the Jewish religion aren't above using it to "affirm" their political activities... see "discovering The Book of The Law" by Josiah, for example, and the construction of the Jesus myth follows along that same course... the Axial age was a time of great political/social/religious upheaval/uncertainty so it is no great stretch to believe such a thing likely.

Cletus

[Tafiti]

13. There is a good book on this topic...

...called "The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity" The author, Hyam Macoby, is a Talmudic scholar, and delves into the ideas you are talking about. Very good book. Lots of scriptural references as evidence of his thesis.

[devinsgram]

26. Another good book is

The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold.

[fshrink]

25. Watch Monty Pythoon's Brian's Life (nt)

[fshrink]

15. Voted "other". Did Ulysses was really there?

Yes and no. These things are condensed representations of large chunks of history. Stories. Which makes me think that they should put the standard formula at the beginning of the bible: "The following story is inspired by actual events but remains purely fictional, resemblance with etc...

[Behind the Aegis]

16. I am not sure

I think it is very possible he lived. However, the Jews were notorious for "note-taking" and I have wondered why he hasn't appeared in Jewish writings (if he has, please point me to it). Also, the Romans were fairly good at record keeping and nothing exists there either. It is no to say he didn't exist, but as a revolutionary, I would think that other cultures would have recorded his existence. Are there other records he existed outside the Bible? If so, please let me know because I would find that very interesting!

[BurtWorm]

17. The record is not in historicism's favor.

There simply is no unambiguous contemporaneous reference to Jesus in the record. None. Nowhere. Even Paul's mentions of Christ are ambiguous, considering that he never refers to the familiar bits of biography--no reference to Pilate, Mary, Joseph, Nazareth, Jerusalem. Paul's Jesus is mythical, not historical.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. New for me

To be honest, I only recently thought..."hey, are there ANY other writings about Jesus?" That is what made me wonder. Jews would not have taken lightly anyone claiming to be the messiah. So, I always wondered why there was nothing in Rabbinical writings, nothing from Roman or Greek philosophers. The whole birth story and the three wise men from the East, why were their no writings from those cultures about a pilgrimage to the West? I just don't know.

[BurtWorm]

19. You might be interested in this site

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Thank you!

I will have to read that site! It looks very interesting. Thank you for showing me that site. Although I am a practicing pagan, I do enjoy reading as much as I can on a variety of things. This should be very interesting!

[BurtWorm]

21. You pagans are a much more influential and persistant group than most

people realize. Some even believe that Christianity is essentially pagan. There's a whole book by Christian gnostics that asks if Jesus is really a Jewish pagan man-god, like Hercules or Horus.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. I agree

In the room I helped create, Ancient Lore and Pagan Spirituality, one poster has suggested "The Jesus Mysteries." I do not know this book, but s/he says it talks about how Jesus was a composite myth from Greece and Egypt. I appreciate others beliefs (or lack thereof) but I also know mine are questionable. I just have never thought to make others accept my way of thinking. I only wish others could respect that and do the same. I wish I was a better student of philosophy, because sometimes I feel that is really what keeps me from joining in most atheist/agnostic discussions. I am intelligent, but sometimes my little mind just can't grasp those concepts.

Thanks for the info! I really do appreciate it!

[BurtWorm]

23. That's the book I was referring to. Well worth reading.

You're welcome!

[Behind the Aegis]

27. I bought it!

I have purchased "The Jesus Mysteries." It was the ONLY copy in the store, but for small town Okla-Hell-ma, that is not too bad! In the first few pages, I have already learned new things! I look forward to reading this book!

[bobbieinok]

28. you might want to read H Schonfeld's The Passover Plot

and Those Incredible Christians

a Jewish scholar....lots of info about the time of Jesus (the many messiahs) and the early Christians that most people in the congregations have never heard of .... sort of popularization of what has been common knowledge to liberal theologians for decades

much attacked by religious right people