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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 10:41 AM
Original message
The Nation: Debate Among Democrats On Iraq Boils Down To
More Than Politics as Usual
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/25/opinion/main1935574.shtml

Make no mistake about it: The fight within the Democratic Party over the Iraq war is as important as it is real. This is no sideshow between seasoned Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.) and upstart challenger Ned Lamont, between pros and bloggers, or lefties and conservatives within the party.

No, this battle transcends those labels and cuts to the obligation of politicians to be honest with the public. Indeed, a seasoned conservative Democratic politician should recognize the war in Iraq for the unmitigated disaster it is and seek to properly place responsibility for it on the incumbent Republican President.

It is one thing for Democrats like Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts to admit that they bought into the Bush Administration's lies about Saddam Hussein's alleged nuke program and partnership with Al Qaeda and to now seek to make amends by working to bring the troops home. It is quite another, as Lieberman has, to continue to defend as wise this patently absurd betrayal of the public interest. And it moves from dumb to evil to claim that those like Lamont who dare tell the truth are giving aid and comfort to the enemy... (more...)
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Democrafty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's really well-stated!
Thanks for sharing.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. They didn't buy into lies about WMDs, but believed VERIFICATION was NEEDED
and that is what they voted for.

Sometimes JOURNALISTS can be just as misleading with the facts as unschooled freepers and anarchists.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. This is not as black or white as some ways that it has been stated
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 01:19 PM by karynnj
There is absolutely no comment I remember that comes close to suggesting Kerry EVER bought the connection to Al Quada. His Senate floor speech on the IWR seems to show that he didn't buy the argument on the WMD, but he was willing to accept that their might be some possibility it was true - and even if the chance was small, it was important to get the inspectors in in that case.
The reporter ignores that Kerry spoke out before Bush invaded.

But the reporter is saying:
- Bush lied (which is true)
- Kerry voted for the resolution because of those lies (true)
- Kerry is working to get the troops out (true)

The reporter has only one more step to go to be saying what we view as truth - which is that voting for the IWR is NOT voting for the war. This distinction though likely is true only for a small number of the Democrats who voted for it - Kerry and Harkin, are the 2 obvious ones. ( Bill Clinton is arguing that that was the Democrats' position - but neither he or Hillary spoke out in January - March, 2002 when the inspectors were in and Bush was clearly headed to war.)

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Excellent point!
Bush used al Qaeda to sell the war to the public. Kerry has always maintained that Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terror.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. The simplistic view ignores that Kerry did check with others
like Colin Powell to verify that the information given was on the up-and-up. Powell was also lied to by the neocons. Kerry was going to people for verification who were supposed to be independent actors and who were supposed to be the grown-ups in the Admin.

Everyone was 'played' by Cheney and Rumsfeld. They wanted the war with Iraq. They believed in an American dominance that could be achieved through force of arms and that Americans should do whatever it took, including lying intentionally to Congress, plant disinformation in the press, and move to squash dissent in order to achieve their goals. (How much more 'the ends will justify the means' can we get than the ideas proposed by Cheney and Rumsfeld.)

Kerry checked out the info he had with the people who were supposed to be in the know. He also had some questions about Bush's authority to act under the Constitution, which does grant the President the ability to undertake quick action to protect the nation. (There is an argument that is vastly underplayed now that the President didn't need the IWR, that he had this as a Constitutional right of office anyway. We know now, of course, that had the IWR failed in Congress, Bush would have invaded Iraq anyway because he believed he had this power. See the signing statement on the IWR. It is an arrogant little piece of power-grabbing.)

The Neocons are in the so-called Straussian school of thought. An article from Alternet states their philosophy best:

Rule One: Deception

It's hardly surprising then why Strauss is so popular in an administration obsessed with secrecy, especially when it comes to matters of foreign policy. Not only did Strauss have few qualms about using deception in politics, he saw it as a necessity. While professing deep respect for American democracy, Strauss believed that societies should be hierarchical – divided between an elite who should lead, and the masses who should follow. But unlike fellow elitists like Plato, he was less concerned with the moral character of these leaders. According to Shadia Drury, who teaches politics at the University of Calgary, Strauss believed that "those who are fit to rule are those who realize there is no morality and that there is only one natural right – the right of the superior to rule over the inferior."

This dichotomy requires "perpetual deception" between the rulers and the ruled, according to Drury. Robert Locke, another Strauss analyst says,"The people are told what they need to know and no more." While the elite few are capable of absorbing the absence of any moral truth, Strauss thought, the masses could not cope. If exposed to the absence of absolute truth, they would quickly fall into nihilism or anarchy, according to Drury, author of 'Leo Strauss and the American Right' (St. Martin's 1999).

http://www.alternet.org/story/15935/



You can hear a critique of the Straussians in the Neocon movement here in a radio interview of Prof Drury of Calgary Univ. It's pretty chilling stuff: http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2003/05/20030515_a_main.asp


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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. In one of the interviews supporting his October 2005 plan,
Kerry spoke of even speaking to British intelligence people and the UN. He clearly did as much as he could - hypothesizing that British and American leaders were jointly planning an invasion that was likely against international law was not something many would believe. Kerry's anger when speaking of being lied to seems pretty real.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I'm listening. Here is a very interesting article:
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 08:44 PM by ProSense
Illusion and Reality
The violence in the Middle East shows the negative consequences of the administration’s contempt for engagement. But the tough talk has failed.



found at digby

Interesting comment here



I'm still reading!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Nuts!
Harvey Mansfield is a nut. His opinion that secretive government cannot happen is simply ridiculous. It's really frightening that people who are supposed to be intelligent and thoughtful can harbor such screwed up beliefs.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/563mevpm.asp
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. That sums it up!
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 01:03 PM by ProSense
Here's Mr. "Dumb to evil" being exposed for making more disingenuous claims:

CT-SEN: More Lieberman Contortions On Iraq

By Greg Sargent | bio

In an Op-ed piece in today's Hartford Courant, Joe Lieberman wrote: "I believe that Ned Lamont's strategy of pulling all our troops out by an arbitrary, politically determined date will lead to the collapse of Iraq..." OK, then, a question: Why doesn't GOP Rep. Chris Shays' new call for a withdrawal, most of which Shays says could take place next year, constitute the setting of an equally "arbitrary, politically determined" date? Why wouldn't Shays' proposed withdrawal lead to the "collapse" of Iraq, too?

more...

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2006/aug/27/ct_sen_more_lieberman_contortions_on_iraq


Posted the op-ed here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2799893&mesg_id=2799893

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. There is NO plan in Joe's "plan", it is all rhetoric!
It is interesting that he is saying these things given the strong anti- Lamont et al things said just a week ago. Sounds like internal polling is not too good. (I actually think it can't work - Lieberman can't win back the anti-war crowd (the Bush kiss is pretty clear) and if he pursues this path, the Republicans may stay home. They disagree with him on most issues, so if it looks like he is wavering on the war, why would they make an effort to support him?
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fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. All his words lately
are Republican rhetoric at that.

From another post about Lieberman:

"As I've said to you over and over again, the sooner we get out of Iraq, the better it's going to be for the Iraqis and us, but if we leave too soon for reasons of American politics, it's going to be disaster for the Iraqis and for us," he said.

more...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2358546&CMP...


This was the first thing that came up when I googled, and of all places on Kyl's re-election site.


Senator McCain said that supporting the Reed-Levin Amendment was equivalent to supporting a premature withdrawal of our troops. In his statement on the Senate Floor, McCain said that support for the amendment was ?a significant step on the road to disaster? because it called for ?a withdrawal of American troops tied to arbitrary timetables, rather than conditions in-country.? He continued, ?Draw-downs must be based on conditions in-country, not an arbitrary deadline rooted in our domestic politics.? . Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman confirmed, ?The Levin amendment directs that a withdrawal of American troops from Iraq begin by the end of this year, 2006, without regard to the conditions on the ground.? . http://www.jonkyl.com/press/062706.aspx


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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Joe is a neo-con, other Dems are not.
That's how I see it. Joe believes in this overall global-dominating agenda, and the other Dems believe in doing what keeps American safe. And he's also driven by what's good for Israel over what's good for America, in my opinion.
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