JK coming up on Face the Nation

[fedupinBushcountry]

Tune in now. :patriot:

[Luftmensch067]

1. He's wonderful

And Bill Nelson is a sleazy crumb.

[MH1]

2. What I don't get

Bill Schieffer just sat there and let Nelson whine about "the DNC needs to accept the mail in proposal" (that's paraphrased) when Howard Dean had just been on and Dean said that mail in seemed like a good idea, but he hadn't received the proposal yet. Why didn't Schieffer ask about that obvious disconnect? Did he already forget what Dean had said? Or did it not fit his story line?

[karynnj]

3. Nelson was absolutely outclassed even after the lead was absolutely biased

That bias was anti- Dean, rather than anti- Obama or anti- Kerry. Nelson did a reasonable job stating what he did, of course putting it in as self serving a way as possible. Kerry countered that by framing it as Obama playing by the rules - and arguing that that showed he would play by the rules as President. He transitioned seamlessly on the changing the rules theme to the games they are playing on suggesting he should be her VP - pointing out that that was inconsistent with her argument that he was not prepared to be CIC, when that is one of the first criteria a VP candidate must pass.

Nelson protested that he was not there to speak Clinton vs Obama - that they were both friends of his, but he thought HRC better as President. (this was a whine - he clearly was not prepared to go head to head vs JK) but to find a way to seat the delegations (Kerry said they agreed to it) Kerry then said that Nelson was a friend of his (typical good things said). Asked about Nelson's mail in idea, Kerry prefers something that has a voting day with it (like OR). He says it would be more Democratic to have the campaign there.(He lost me here - even if there is no campaign day, Obama could campaign there.)

Kerry's overall message:
- Obama follows the rules
- Obama will follow any rules the DNC has to do it.
- Changing the rules midstream is a problem

[Luftmensch067]

4. Good summary, Karynnj

I wondered if JK was suggesting a voting day as a hint that he thought a caucus in FL would be a good idea? Not sure if I was reading that right...

[fedupinBushcountry]

5. IMO

on the mail-in it is a way to prolong the situation. I mean when I heard Nelson say that they would have to be mailed to the military guys overseas well that would also mean all those Floridians living abroad, then a time would have to be set to have them mailed in by, and then how many of those votes would be disenfranchised due to a late postal date, etc.?

Nelson was trying to play like he was not a part of the Clinton campaign when in fact he was right by her side on primary day in Florida, breaking the rules.




Over on http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/09/tv-soundoff-sunday-talki_n_90589.html">Huffpost , Jason Linkins thinks that Kerry was small in bringing up anything other then the situation in Florida. "Frankly, since Nelson is not giving a full-throated oration for Hillary, Kerry looks a little small doing it here." JK is an Obama surrogate and he needed to bring up a few facts as Nelson sat there looking as if he wasn't calculating for HRC, anyone thinking he is not, should think again.

[Inuca]

8. Good or bad, mail-in seems to be

the most likely outcome, I think. Something else that Dean said was that a decision about what to do is not likely before the PA vote. Why the hell does it have to take that long? This haggling is becoming nerve-wrecking...

[fedupinBushcountry]

9. The thing is

it cannot be decided by the Hillary camp, that is not fair and is not democratic. Bill Nelson is part of the Hillary camp whether he wants to really admit it or not. The Dem party in Florida has to make that decision not Bill Nelson.

[Inuca]

10. Absolutely

and incidentaly Wasserman-Schultz (who seems to have become a strident HRC supporter, too bad because I kind of liked her) did not seem to ilke the mail-in idea (Fox), she did not seem to like anything much actually...

[MarjorieG]

16. And then all those mail in absentee overseas/military.

Our Election Boards always say that mail-in is a guaranteed 110% participation in a high stakes election year. Mail-in in Oregon is not old time machine politics in Michigan and Florida. I wish they'd agree to the firehouse elections, and use paper ballots. Less costly. Something other than faulty and confusing machines in Florida, but not mail-in.

[karynnj]

11. In reality, he had to bring up that HRC was the one who wanted the rules changed

after the game was played. She would be on solid ground had she, well before the election occurred said that it was her belief that the primaries had to count and that she would act accordingly. She, in fact, did the opposite giving lip service before Iowa to being ok with the DNC.

Scheiffer had already framed the question in HRC's way, Kerry needed to expand. It's true that he didn't need to expand to the pattern of rule breaking - that the Bill Clinton offering all but offering the VP was - a blatant attempt to suggest a vote for Clinton is a vote for both. He was there to support Obama and he did. It may have irritated a Clinton supporter, but, at worse, it might make someone neutral think Kerry went off topic - but this is not a high school debate that would be judged that way. It also was Kerry, not Obama.

In real life, Kerry made an excellent point on an issue that was more central to the decisions of people than the Florida question. The one that looked out classed to me was Nelson, a US Senator, who has supported HRC for 8 weeks, who was in essence said he wasn't able to counter anything Kerry spoke of. (Who long has Kerry supported Obama? I think around 8 weeks.) It didn't make Kerry look small - it was a cheap Clinton ploy that he attacked and he attacked it well. It made Nelson look weak.

[wisteria]

12. I agree with you fedup. They were introduced as Obama and Clinton supporters.

What did Nelson expect? I say good for Senator Kerry. I see nothing wrong with him saying a few good words about Senator Obama. I j just wonder why Nelson could not think of anyting good to say about Clinton.

[karynnj]

19. I mentioned this Linkins' comment to my less biased husband

His comment was why is it Kerry's fault that Nelson was not prepared to give a full throated defense to HRC on the issue - pointing out that the schedule made it clear that he was there as a surrogate for HRC against Kerry, who was an Obama surrogate. Had he been expected to speak without regard to candidate, he would have been paired with Howard Dean. Nelson's comment on being friends with Obama and HRC was pure capitulation out of inability to counter what Kerry said- which was likely why Kerry very warmly and graciously complimented his as a friend and fellow Senator. Kerry's stature as a surrogate, debater, and as a person can no more be described as "small" than he can be described so physically.

As it was, Scheiffer in his set up of the question, biased the frame towards HRC suggesting that she was for enfranchising the voters, while Obama was, for selfish reasons seeking not to. Kerry reframed it - intentionally near repeating himself "Obama follows the rules", he then expanded on that theme and a parallel theme "the Clintons change the rules when they don't like them". Even making the VP suggestion something that changes the rules of how things normally happen. Daschle hit the same points on the VP offer - that it is strange coming from the person who is number 2 and that it counters her CIC ad. So, this was a case of Kerry pulling in the message the Obama team want out quite deftly.

This was another demonstration of who is the best debater in either party. Kerry took a hostilely set up question on a side issue - and the points that anyone got, were likely:
- Obama follows rules, Clintons don't - followed by the opened ended query on what this means in how they would govern (My internal reaction: I thought of obeying international law (or rules) and following the Constitution - and that Bush doesn't follow rules. Someone who honors the process and follows the rules sounds good to me.)
- Clinton's all but official offer a VP slot that is not hers to fill does contradict her ad, unless you accept she would intentionally jeopardize the country by selecting a VP who she thinks is unprepared. (Internal thought: Either the ad is a lie and she knows Obama is sufficiently prepared or if she is the nominee, she is willing to jeopardize the country)

where Linkin's is coming from can be seen by this comment after speaking of Daschle and Rendell on MTP,
"Argh. Look. I can appreciate that Clinton has still got a real good case for being in the race and a shot to use the democratic process to make a good case for superdelegates - so much so that I don't think her soldiering on is a bad idea in the least." (he does then criticize the "states don't count" stuff - but here and elsewhere, he buys the Clinton line.)

[ginnyinWI]

6. He was sharp and on-point as usual

I wonder how Bill Nelson felt when he found out who he'd be on with! I'm sure he likes and respects JK a lot, and just thought, "oh hell..."

I liked how JK got in so many points in such a short time. He's a magnificent advocate/surrogate, isn't he? In addition to your three points, he got in the message that HRC is trying to game the system. I detected an undertone of, "this is the way this group operates". I'm sure there's a lot more he could have said based on personal experience alone.

[Inuca]

7. One other thing he brought up

I think (I shamefully confess I was only partially awake) is that it is wrong for Clinton to say that they will not accept caucuses (though if I am not mistaken he dropped a "no" from the sentence, but the intent was clear), while the Obama campaign says that they will accept whatever conclusion the states and the party arrive to. Anybody else remember this or was I dreaming?

What an AWFUL mess this whole thing has become.... I wish I could go to sleep, wake up, and realize that Tuesday never happened. It messed up everything to a degree that I do not know how the hell a decent way out can be found eventually. Whether influenced or not by the talk coming out of the Clinton camp, there is a lot of talk again about the quasi-NECESSITY of a joint ticket (I liked the lady on the Steph panel, I think it was Cookie Roberts, describing the Clintons talk about this as "cynical"), to the point that they may be FORCED to nominate each other, and the one being offered the VP position may be FORCED to accept.

[ladym55]

13. Tuesday is only part of the problem

The biggest problem is the way Tuesday has been spun by Hillary's campaign and the MSM. She did NOT net that many delegates. Her wins were NOT substantial. Given she had something like a 20 point lead in Ohio not too long ago and wasn't able to hold that says something. Obama got more delegates from Texas than she did because of the caucuses.

The biggest problem is that Hillary keeps moving the goalposts (a phrase I heard from a political columnist). Reality is that if she couldn't DOMINATE in Ohio and Texas she was done. She didn't dominate, but like a little kid playing sandlot baseball, she keeps demanding a "do over."

This dream team ticket is one more desperation ploy by the Clintons. :eyes:

[MarjorieG]

14. Readings Ohio strategists, thought delegate strategy wrong.

That had Obama campaigned more outside the cities (guessing fewer ads) he could have scored higher, or not been vulnerable to Hill's fear ads. So not any intrinsic weakness.

Saw Daschle in his quiet calm way say Obama is ahead, and since when would a number two be offering the number one the VP spot. Reassuring tone.

I like how calm Obama is, and mentioning his leadership, managerail style on the stump with some humor. Even koing about the Fear ad, and that he'd answer the phone and find out what was going on. That's our guy, from a page of another cool character we admire here.

[Inuca]

17. Yes, we like cool, intelligent guys

The problem is that many people don't, or at least are not that impressed. I saw the Daschle/Rendell confrontation. D was very good in almost everything he said, and his polite ironic smile while listening to R's rants (quite unbelievable some of the things he said!) was a pleasure to watch. Maybe it's just my pessimistic current mood, but I bet that most people who watched and are not already intensely partisan would say that R "won" the debate. Let's be honest, in spite of all his other outstanding qualities, Obama would not be where he is now without his striking oratory. In other words, he uses the "form" as a tool to help people get to the "substance". But I am afraid I forgot what point I was trying to make :blush:, I am sure there was a point there somewhere... I guess the caffeine did not kick in yet :-).

[karynnj]

15. The media is spinning it like crazy - but the amazing thing is that

few people seem to be following the pundits. People aren't that stupid they hear HRC say things that are obviously either true or unfair. I really wonder what her unfavorable rating will be when she pulls out.

The dirty secret is that they may not only be biased, but they have been continually wrong. They have bought the Clinton line time and time again - but it has been more wrong than right. Not to mention - Deaniacs to the contrary - they were just as wrong in 2004. They wrote Kerry out - as late as the first week of January. Then after Hew Hampshire, they really wanted Edwards to be Clinton 2004 - winning all those Southern or rural states. Didn't happen. They said Kerry wouldn't get blacks - he did.

[Inuca]

18. Agree

Tuesday is the problem only in so far as if O had gotten a gew more votes in TX to win the popular vote, and come closer in OH, the damn thing may have been over by now.