I am furious

[JohnKleeb]

These people who go after the Democrats who criticized Dean dont care about party unity, if they cared about democratic unity, they wouldn't be calling Kerry a DLC imperialist like Ive seen them too in the past. And on and on, its bad enough that these pretty mild criticisms by democrats of Dean are being treated like they damned him to hell but its even worse that the people who are asking for the heads are inconsistent as hell. I am pissed, you heard me right, if we're gonna be about dem unity, we should do it all for democrats, I disagree with this rule that we shouldnt attack fellow democrats too, if we had followed that rule 60 years ago, we would been condoning segeration. Just my two cents, I am pissed y'all. There are too many people on the left and right who relish the division in this country and today in government class I realized how much I want a truly united states. I dont wanna hate my political opposition in congress, I want to respectively disagree with them.

[XanaDUer]

1. Or the Skull and Bones' loons.

...

[JohnKleeb]

4. Hell yeah them too

I am pissed at this blatant hypocrisy. Its totally crap.

[Dr Ron]

2. But Kerry. . .

Stole the nomination from Dean

Is Bush-lite

Voted for the war

Didn't want to win

Conceded--if he had fought in Ohio he would be President

Has been gay bashing

For all these TOTALLY IMAGINED reasons, they justify attacking Kerry.

[JohnKleeb]

3. Yep

Its ok to act like Kerry isnt really one of us but its heirosy to criticize Dean, stupid assholes, they're using Ronald Reagan's thou shall not criticize republicans only with democrats but they eat our own the most of anyone on this forum, they eat Kerry and others so willingly but if you touch Dean, youre dead, and these criticisms of Dean arent even that harsh, many of the critics have said Dean is doing a good job as chair. Oh yeah but everything is that evil DLC's fault. I am sick of htis crap.

[TayTay]

5. I have the canonical list

We pull it out just to save time. It has the list of reasons/excuses in order of 'I felt like it.'

[sandnsea]

6. I'm about fed up

I'm mostly tired of people identifying these idiots as the grassroots when I know they're just a bunch of leftie malcontents who voted for Nader and promote the agenda that caused us to lose so many from the Democratic Party in the first place. And how they call for unity when nobody is really saying anything negative, compared to what they say about other Dems, it's just disgusting.

I really really really want them to go make a Green Party. GO GO GO.

[Dr Ron]

7. We know they aren't representative

Even if they voted Democratic in the general election, they are not typical of Democratic voters After all, if they were typical, Dean and not Kerry would have run away with the nomination.

[sandnsea]

8. And isn't GD just a cesspool today

That needed it's own subject line.

[Mass]

9. They are getting really stupid

Now they are spreading the rumor that the DLC wants to force Dean out.

I have seen at least 3 threads on that subject. Never mind that Reid and Pelosi have shown a strong support to Dean (or that it is probably not their say).

[LittleClarkie]

10. If the Dean or Green folks wanna leave

please, go already. I WANT you to.

[paulk]

11. most of the hardcore deaniacs

aren't even Democrats. They're leftover Naderites and Greens and god knows what else who glommed onto Dean early on because his campaign tactic was - attacking the Democratic Party. Remember that from the primaries? Even before the IWR nonsense and Dean's transformation into the "anti war candidate", that was the crux of the Dean campaign.

How else could we get this bunch of "hard lefties" supporting a dlc centrist like Dean?

I thought giving him the DNC chair was a mistake. I still think that.
He has no political instincts, doesn't know when to shut up, and his supporters are the most alienating group of idiots around.

IMHO.

[Dr Ron]

14. Cockroaches

re attacking the Democratic Party

Don't forget everything from the Bush Lite attacks to comparing the Democrats in Congress to cockroaches.

The IWR nonsense did more long term harm, but he did the same with Medicare. When the criticism came out of him--which was valid--he both lied about his own acts in the 1990's and spread false claims about Kerry and Gephardt's votes related to Medicare in retaliation.

[JohnKleeb]

12. Thanks guys

God I am so upset, rarely is the time I feel like a moderate who is more bipartisan than he is partisan but the past few days I have felt that way.

[Dr Ron]

13. Reply to this on LUTD

Deja Vu
9 June 2005

Winter 2004:

Howard Dean makes repeated gaffes.

Dean supporters deny Dean made gaffes, filling up Democratic message boards with explanations as to why Dean was right.

Dean supporters send hate mail to Democrats who criticize Dean.

Dean supporters demand that nobody criticize Dean in the name of party unity, while simultaneously attacking other Democrats.

Dean's campaign self-destructs and Dean winds up third in Iowa caucus, never to recover.

Spring 2005:

Howard Dean makes repeated gaffes.

Dean supporters deny Dean made gaffes, filling up Democratic message boards with explanations as to why Dean was right.

Dean supporters send hate mail to Democrats who criticize Dean.

Dean supporters demand that nobody criticize Dean in the name of party unity, while simultaneously attacking other Democrats.

Do we break this cycle, or does the Democratic Party go the way of the Dean campaign in 2004?

Are we doomed to have the media concentrate on Dean's gaffe of the week, or can we get back to talking about Iraq, health care, social security, abuse of power under the current Republican leadership, judicial appointees, and the other issues?

There is no doubt that the right wing noise machine is ready to jump on anything Dean says, but it is also true that Dean repeatedly gives them all the ammunition they need.

Unlike some of the blogs out there which have been routinely attacking Kerry and defending Dean regardless of what is said, we are happy to report it when Dean says something worthwhile. Monday, when most of the media was criticizing Dean, I had a favorable post on his statements in Washington. This wasn't the first favorable post I've had on Dean, and I sure hope it isn't the last.

In contrast, there are Democratic blogs which recently have attacked Kerry for criticizing the Republican leadership, falsely quoting him as claiming to be an outsider. They attacked Kerry for saying that, despite his personal opposition to gay marriage, he would take no action to oppose the gay marriage plank in the Massachusetts party platform, and called this gay bashing. This week they are attacking Kerry following the release of his military records which verify everything he has said all along under a strange belief that this would have satisfied his right wing attackers if done earlier. They spread tin foil hat theories of how Kerry could have changed the outcome by fighting more in Ohio, and ignore everything Kerry is doing to fight for election reform. They play into Republican hands by calling the Iraq War Resolution a vote to go to war, rather than a vote to get the inspectors back in and to use military force as a last resort under conditions which were not met. These tend to be the same blogs which are defending everything Howard Dean has to say, regardless of how absurd or destructive to Democratic hopes. While Kerry has been their favorite target, they are also attacking others who have said anything critical about Howard Dean

I hope Howard Dean can put this all behind him as our success depends upon it. He must learn to stick to the issues. He must learn a lesson from the Republicans, where the personal attacks are left for people outside of the government and party structure. If he must go beyond the issues, he must be very clear to differentiate between Republicans and the current Republican leadership.

We must never forget that we need to attract the votes of people who voted Republican in 2004. Many, probably most, of these are hard working people. This includes both the working class, many of whom voted for Bush, and businessmen and professionals who also put in an honest day's work. Some of them are also minorities. While Ken Mehlman is doing an excellent job speaking to traditional Democratic groups to attempt to grow the Republican Party, Dean is exciting only his base, and risks alienating those we need to attract.

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=1053

[JohnKleeb]

15. ok done

[Dr Ron]

16. I think you misunderstood my title

I meant that I have a reply to this posted on LUTD, not that I was asking you to reply there.

Of course you were also welcome to reply there.

[JohnKleeb]

17. ha its ok

I got something in. I feel ditzy ha, alls godo, nice post man. I agree with you, I should have added in my post that I am feeling more moderate and more bipartisan than I have in a while and to be honest I dont mind it, I know I can still be consistent with my beliefs and be tolerant of other's vies.

[elshiva]

23. As a Derryiac I am so tired of all this!

;(

[JohnKleeb]

24. I dont blame you for not liking this

I am gonna give Dean a chance but I want him to stop playing in to the republicans hands. I Dont like his most rabid of supporters saying any democrat who condemns Dean is a traitor then at the same time calling guys like Kerry and others imperialists DINOs. Dean generally has the right idea but his execution really seems to be the problem for me. He needs to be telling these people why the democratic party is better than the republican party, you know why that is beacuse we stand for the equality of all people, we believe in justice sincerely, and we believe in the power of the little guy over big business. We need optimism in our message, I am sick of the division in this country, I am sick of people on both the left and right taking glee in it beacuse it helps them feel good politiccally.

[elshiva]

26. Yeah. I don't get the whole "Kerry is a DINO" thing from

some "Deaniacs" because Kerry is so similar to Dean in so many matters. I remember Dean saying something about this too after the nomination. Also that he admired Kerry's diplomacy. Yes, maybe Dean was being nice so he could get some position in the Kerry Whitehouse, but I think he also meant it...

Yes, I love Dean, but I understand that he has trouble expressing himself clearing. Like the Confederate Flag statement. Yep it was made to much of , but it did reveal some of his trouble.

Also Kerry defended Dean against Russert's too-liberal arguement...

[JohnKleeb]

27. The thing is

He has the right idea generally like the confederate flag flap, but it came out so bad and he looked idiotic, now I think some of this may be the fault of his speechwriters maybe but its not that Dean doesnt have the right idea, its that the wrong words come out often. Not just Kerry but people like Biden who Ive actually seen speak on matters like the nuclear opition, and Biden came out for closing gitmo. Hes not a DINO or spineless, hes actually a fine dem. Oh and lemme expand on this further, the way some Deaniacs are treating those who criticized Dean outrages me, they act like they made the most horrible criticism of Dean but many of them like Biden and others ended with "I think hes doing a good job as chair" I saw a thread earlier that called Biden and Lieberman Quislings, that doesnt help at all, Biden is a bit too hawkish for me and Lieberman especially but these guys are democrats, no mistake.

[elshiva]

28. Biden a Quisling? No!

Don't care for Lieberman that much these days, but he not the worst...

Any senator is to be admired for speaking out against gitmo.

Also I really loved Kerry's speech on the nuclear option...really a very passionate guy if you actually listen to him!

[JohnKleeb]

29. Seriously

He was a strong oponent of the nuclear opition too, I saw this with my own eyes. Yeah Lieberman isnt great I give you but hes better than Landrieu and the Nelsons. Oh yeah I loved Kerry's speech, I have it on MP3, I was in the gallery when Biden talked about it actually, he urged people to look at the judges appointed records, he brought up the remarks Judge Brown made on the New Deal, this man is no DINO or quisling, hes a good RMM on foreign relations. He's been great against Bolton too.

[elshiva]

31. Yep. Biden and Reid are both very likable as politicians.

Also Lieberman has a 88% HRC rating, that's a B+ ;)

[JohnKleeb]

33. Why do people act like hes a closet right winger then

If hes good on most gay issues.

[elshiva]

36. Who are you refering to there? Lieberman or Biden?

As for Lieberman, the whole "kiss" thing has gotten too distorted. Dubya kissed him, a sort of rape kiss to confirm Dubya supremacy over the Dem party...Dubya is the sicko! :puke:

[JohnKleeb]

38. Both h

but the Lieberman aminosity was there before the kiss. I am not a Lieberman fan btw, I dont like him but when people say hes a closet republican. The man spoke at our convention for crying out loud, hes not like Zell who wnet to theirs to speak.

[elshiva]

40. Yep although Lieberman speech was not much it still said

that he was a Dem supporting other Dems. Zell Miller is a traitor!

[JohnKleeb]

41. exactly and Zellout gave the RNC keynote

Meanwhile Lieberman should have been the second highest man in the land in a Gore-Lieberman adminstration. Hes a hawk but hes one of us.

[elshiva]

42. True about that. He definitely should have been VP and not

Cheney! ;(

[JohnKleeb]

43. The thing I dont get is many people adore Al Gore

Great man, I like him too but if Lieberman is soooooooo bad and such a closet republican, why would Gore choose him if he was a closet republican. It wasnt a DLC conspriacy, Gore felt comfortabel with Lieberman at second in command. I swear, I dislike the new democratic movement but they're not evil incarnate.

[elshiva]

44. Well they say Gore REALLY wanted Kerry...?

I do not get that...???

[JohnKleeb]

45. Gore-Kerry would have been a great ticket

too bad him and Clinton were too foolish not ot pick Kerry. Kerry would have reduced the Green vote in 2000.

[elshiva]

46. Yes, probably, but I don't think it would have gotten Gore into

the Whitehouse... :cry:

[JohnKleeb]

47. Well the past is gone, we have to work first here in Va and NJ

to elect dem governors.

[elshiva]

48. AND MD! Ehrlich is a homophobe who hates the environment!

Furious at Ehrly!

[JohnKleeb]

49. thats 2006 :)

be patient, theres gonna be a Governor O'Malley.

[elshiva]

50. Sorry! That's a big deal here! And I just wish he was gone!

[JohnKleeb]

51. I am just teasing you

I am so excited though, my first year of voting will be in a governor's race and with a referendum on gay marriage.

[beachmom]

18. Democratic Party should NOT equal Dean

Dean needs to come live in Red America for a while to get a grip. He is clueless about how his remarks are pissing people off, and giving them reassurances for being Republicans. But really all of this would be moot if Dean was having some success at the DNC, but apparently the RNC raised a LOT more money this year, including small contributions even through the internet, than the DNC. Anyway, I only post comments on this forum, and rarely read anything else on this website, because I'm sure what you guys are saying is true -- that there's a minority bunch of crazies posting comments who probably also have logins at DailyKos, too.

But now I feel like I have broken my own rules about not bashing other Dems. But I just don't like Dean. Never did. When it seemed like he had the nomination, I was thinking "oh my god . . . .". Total relief when Kerry pulled it off. Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry to any Dean fans reading this. I don't know him that well, so maybe I have a bad impression. But his first impression on me . . . not so good. And it hasn't gotten better.

[Dr Ron]

19. Different ways to look at it

As you poinot out, Republicans are pulling in more money.

Dean's defenders point out that Dean is pulling in more money than during the year after Gore lost.

I'm not sure if that comparison means much. Kerry was bringing in record contributions for a Democrat last year. Obviously he had the advantage of an election year, but the Republicans don't have that going for them either this year.

[JohnKleeb]

20. I live in a red state too

and I agree with what you say too.

[TayTay]

21. You know, I've said worse about Republicans than Dean

ever did. I consider the whole freakin lot of them to be head-up-their-ass liars with God complexes. They are out to screw the average American out of everything they can possibly get before the electoral sheriff shows up and hauls their sorry asses off to jail.

I kind of enjoyed what Dean said. (Sorry, but I did.) Then again, I seem to remember this Rethuglican convention in which shit-for-brains assholes thought it would be real funny to show up wearing bandaids with purple hearts on them that could mock the combat service of the other Party's Nominee. (HarHarHar.) Then they got a Democrat (in name only, of course) to come to the podium and accuse the other Party's Nominees of planning on fighting the War on Terror using spitballs. (HarHarHar) Then they called the Other Party's Nominee a wussy, they called his wife a bitch and they yelled awful things like 'Babykiller' at his daughters. (HarHarHar) Hey Democrats, bend over and take it. I don't fucking think so. Not anymore. They wanted this fight, well hell, they can have a fight.

Fuck them. They can rot in hell for all I care. I will appeal to American voters, but I refuse to kiss the ass of or apologize to any of those motherfucking, piece of shit, useless brain-dead morons. They can kiss my ass. (And this was the nice rant. You should see my impolite rants. I really, really hate those bastards who are destroying my country.) Rethuglicans can bite me.

[JohnKleeb]

22. You have a problem with republican activists

thats different than what I am saying, I am talking about regular people who consider themselves republicans remember the man he saved Jim Rassman considered himself a republican if I recall correctly. What Dean said sounded like he was saying everyone who is a republican has never done anything honest in their life. He needs to be telling these audiences what makes teh democratic party great, i like optimism, I get turned off by Dean because he is way too negative for me, I like Kerry way more than Dean because I hear Kerry talking about a better Unied States and thats what I want.

[sandnsea]

52. Millions of dollars right down the drain

We've spent the last six months defining the difference between the Republican Party and these asshats in office. They're extremists who want to stack the courts with fundamentalist judges who want to control your life. They are people like John Bolton who want to detroy the UN and global cooperation.

Dean has spent the last 6 months traveling around the country "introducing" the Democratic Party to the red states.

We've put nearly $2 million into hiring state people in red states.

Then Dean turns around and lumps the entire Republican Party together as white Christians who haven't worked an honest day in their lives, and oh yes, he hates them.

It isn't about targeted comments that serve a purpose, like Harry Reid calling Bush a liar. In fact, now that Dean has done this stupidity, Harry Reid isn't going to be able to drop his little firecrackers for quite a while either.

Dean's comments weren't useful, one. What's worse, when Edwards & Biden simply said they disagreed, it was DEANIACS that turned it into a conspiratiral DLC attack to get rid of Dean. THEY caused this week of idiocy, then they want US to take responsibility for it.

They're like 13 year old girls who rotate who is going to be backstabbed each week. It was stupid in jr. high and it's stupid now.

[JohnKleeb]

53. The thing is I dont even think hes being sincere

when he says what he says about the GOP, its just not that it diverts focus from real problems the DSM, the extremeists judges but that he's totally pandering, he had a strong working relationship with the republicans in his state legislature as governor and in fact he grew up as a republican in Long Island. I agree with what you say, they odnt help matters at all when they turn this all in to blaming everything on the DLC, Dean was in the DLC, and Biden never has been and neither has Obama. The way Obama is being trashed is just sickening, thats why I was so upset when I posted this, I saw good democrats attacked for not walking lockstep, I cant believe that many people are using a Reagan idea to try to deny crticism to Dean. Anyhow about what Obama said, it was totally consistent with his DNC Speech, I'd rather we have more Obama's out there than not, guys who have a great vision for America that is uplifting.

[JohnKleeb]

25. Another thing guys that I ahve a problem with is

that people are demonizing Jon Stewart, and I find that wrong.

[Pirate Smile]

30. Take a break, John. Get away from DU for a while.

[JohnKleeb]

32. I plan on it actually

I am graduating next week and am gonna be doing a lot of stuff between now and July. I am sorry for sounding so angry and stuff, its just, I dont like a lot of whats going on. I just came back this week truly from another break and the stuff that made me leave in the first place resurfaces.

[Pirate Smile]

34. I just added something to my comment. I haven't seen if you've

already been doing that because I stay out of most of those threads. It is bad for the blood pressure.:)

edit - I guess it didn't take - weird.

[JohnKleeb]

35. its cool

I just really came back this past week from leaving and I find that its even worse than when I left. I dont mean to sound angry, I am actually in a great mood personally but politically I have feelings of disllusion.

[politicasista]

37. It's ok Kleeb

I have lurked around and it's really BAD and UGLY out there.

[JohnKleeb]

39. Its just disgusting how we eat our own

the way I hear our party talked about in GD sometimes, man.

[saltpoint]

54. I've just read over this page of posts, folks, and I goddam love it.

I want you people in charge. NOW.

I want the Republicans out of Washington, DC, out of various state houses, out of state legislatures, and out of the U.S. Seante, and I want you people in their place.

Immediately if not sooner!

Appreciate this OP's remarks very much, the defense of Joseph Biden particularly, and everyone else's response.

Refreshing as hell.

[JohnKleeb]

55. Thanks

I was just really upset at the blatant hypocrisy of the folks going after Biden, Obama, etc.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnKleeb]

57. I am not attacking him, I am criticizing him

for furthing the division of the country, he should be telling these people in audiences what we're for. I get mad when critics of Dean are treated like they're traitors even though they have been speaking out too. Take my citation of Senator Biden for instance, hes being called a DINO despite the fact he opposed the nuclear opition and the judges Bush wanted to appoint, his support for closing Guatamomo Bay. He also said that Dean was doing a good job as chair yet people questioned his loyalty to the party.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mass]

59. But some of the comments from some Dean supporters do not help

We can continue helping the RNC as we are doing by allowing them to keep us off topic (and this goes both for those leaders who criticize Dean and for those Dean supporters who do not know where to stop), or we can focus on the real issues that matter to people.

Apparently some Democrats have chosen the former. Very regrettable. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

[saracat]

60. You are obviously NOT a Kerry supporter. I suggest you read the post

regarding candidate groups!

"The purpose of the new DU Groups is to provide like-minded people with places where they can discuss issues free from disruption from those who disagree. The theory was that if we provided members with "safe zones" where you were not being forced to constantly defend yourselves, you might not feel quite so victimized by DU, and you might not feel the need to be constantly fighting with other people."
!