DSMs: JK has to get this right or else . . .

[Klimmer]

Kerry cautious on probing `Downing Street Memo':
http://news.bostonherald.com/politics/view.bg?articleid=90090

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1564401

[TayTay]

1. Or else what?

DU might get mad at him? Ahm, been there, done that, still here.

PS: This was in the Herald. The Herald is not JK's friend and puts everything in the worst possible light. The encouraging thing in the article was the statement by David Wade. It means that a policy is being formulated.

[Island Blue]

2. Isn't Kerry doing exactly what he said he was going to do?

He's apparently making his fellow Senators more aware of the situation and is urging them to demand some answers from the "President". He's not standing on the roof top shouting about it to the public, but at the end of the day hopefully his quite method will be more productive even if it doesn't earn him a big gold star from the members of DU.

[karynnj]

7. Also acting as he has all his life

"His quiet method" in 1971, when he was 27 was more productive in causing people to listen than 100s of college radicals, Abbie Hoffmans and Jerry Rubins who did more to scare America than they did to cause then to listen. You don't win a lot of converts by shouting in their face.

I don't understand why DU doesn't see that some of Kerry's strengths are that he thoroughly checks things out and that he can deliver clear statements that are both polite and devastating at the same time. He can do more from within the Senate and will be more successful if he doesn't scream. Look what the press did to Gore - in 2000 he was too wooden and serious, then they treated him like a lunatic. I agree with Gore, but his intensity made it easy for the media to dismiss him. Kerry has been called names for decades, then people see this articulate reasonable appearing guy.

I think that if he can get many Senators to sign that the administration needs to answer questions, that is the way to go. It SHOULD be Congress's role and to demand answers is likely to be seen as appropriate by those people who were in the middle. (DU did not need the DSM - for DU it's a given than Bush intentionally lied.) Going first for bipartisan hearings makes sense - if it works that will be extraordinary - if it doesn't the Democrats can have hearings, but without subpoena power. As a former prosecutor, he would probably not think it a good idea or fair to find Blair and Bush guilty without some kind of hearings. It's too bad he's not on the Intelligence committee though because his questions would be good.


I don't even think the article is negative - they restate his comment which did stimulate interest in the MSM on the DSM and they say what he is doing. That he's cautious about making very damaging charges about the President is a plus making him seem fairer, more statesmanlike and rational. The only negativeness comes from reading this having read DU ramblings. I would keep in mind that DU loves the ill-considered Dean comments, which embarrassed many serious Democrats. As the Republican spin machine has taken one over the top Democratic statement after another and used then to discredit legitimate Democratic issues and people, I am more impressed than ever that Kerry handled things as well as he did. From his writings, he clearly has the ability to craft a fiery emotional statement that would make him a hero on DU (for at least a week - until he they remember that he beat Dean) and he would finally get a lot of MSM press - as a lunatic.

[Mass]

9. They like people who talk loud, even if they do not walk the walk.

They do not understand that Dorgan, Kerry, or Durbin, with their calm and quiet style, are extremely efficient and reliable.

[karynnj]

10. I am impressed with all three

It was so obnoxious of McCain and Frist to have asked for a Durbin apology as they straight faced lied about what Durbin really said. I think I hate McCain each time I see him. He sits there pretending to be so far above everyone else - The only thing that keeps me from totally thinking him to be an amoral opportunist is that he has to have more substance for Kerry to have considered him so highly. (Not that Kerry can't make bad decisions now and then.)

[TayTay]

11. Kerry only had to work with him in the Senate

He never before had to work with McCain the political whore who would do anything to gain an advantage in the Pres race. I think Kerry saw a different face on McCain and he didn't recognize it.

[karynnj]

12. Great Point

Not only not recognize, but apparently not even like. I bet Teresa likes him even less.

[TayTay]

13. I bet that's true

Teresa is not shy about expressing her opinions either. I bet we hear things start to link out on her opinion.

Again, I am sorry to have to epxress this. But McCain is not worth the effort it would take to convince myself that the good of the nation outweighs any hurt I feel over his betrayal.

[JI7]

20. he is also willing to look to the positive

especially when it involves trying to get something done. he is willing to work with someone he has had personal differences with and probably doesn't even really like if it means doing something good for the people. and i think that's how it was with mccain and vietnam thing. of course he came to really like mccain.

i don't think he ever expected mccain to support him and expected him to support BUsh. it was the things mccain said and did that had nothing to do with the election such as the comments on how they were never friends and how he wishes kerry would stop mentioning him. and his lack of defense when it came to the swift boat attacks. and of course the shit he spewed AFTER the election about how Kerry should do this and not that.

there was a point where it came to mccain just being an asshole.

[LittleClarkie]

21. Do you see evidence that they're not friends any more?

I watched McCain for a few moments on MTP. He was carrying water for Bush big time on the Iraq issue. I thought he was against it. Gads he's inconsistent, isn't he.

[JI7]

22. Kerry blowing him off on the Senate floor

McCain complaining to the media that Kerry wont talk to him anymore.

those are just a few of the things.

[beachmom]

23. McCain and Kerry

Kerry actually DID feel betrayed BECAUSE McCain campaigned for *. It wasn't what he said or how he said it, it was that he DID it. This was from that New Yorker article a month ago (sorry, I don't have a link since I read it old fashioned style on paper).

And, here's my controversial statement. McCain is a Republican. He wants to be president. That's going to be more important to him than his professional friendship with a senator from across the aisle. On a personal level, this doesn't feel right. Kerry is a very loyal friend, and he didn't understand that McCain maybe didn't feel the same way. McCain said he would never campaign against Kerry. But it appears he only meant his Senate seat. If McCain had sat on the sidelines and not campaigned for *, he would have NO CHANCE IN HELL to get the nomination in '08. He's still a long shot, but this is his dream. Sorry guys, but put your feet in his shoes. No campaigning for *, no chance to be pres. Didn't you listen to him tout that on MTP? I get it. McCain is a Republican. For him not to support and campaign for his party's nomination would mean his political career essentially dead. He would only be a senator, and would have to give up his dream.

I think we and Kerry need to take a step back. Blame the Party for nominating such an awful and immoral man as * that McCain was stuck campaigning for. If an issue comes up that's important and McCain is on board, Kerry should seek him out, let bygones be bygones, and get back to work. Enough is enough. I know Kerry is not one to hold a grudge. He needs to let go of this one. Accept the fact that McCain is running for pres., and realizing that everything he did was for that end. It wasn't personal. He can trust McCain in this context knowing that everything is through the lens of presidential politics. Yes, it's all a disappointment, but if what McCain said was true, that they only had a professional friendship and never socialized outside of Senate business, then maybe there was a misunderstanding as to how far this friendship was going to go. I read that old New Yorker article about the two senators and Vietnam and I looked through McCain's book. I only see evidence of them being professional friends, nothing more. Does anyonce have info showing how deep this friendship went that's contrary to what McCain said? How deep did it go? Did Kerry expect too much?

[JI7]

25. i don't believe that article

i don't believe that Kerry was offended or felt betrayed just by McCain campainging for Bush in itself. it was the things he said and did.

and of course Kerry would work with McCain and whoever else and put aside personal feelings if it means doing something good for the people.

and i don't see McCain as a victim who was "stuck" campaigning for Bush. yeah, McCain wants to run for President but that doesn't mean Kerry has to put up with the personal insults and attacks.

it would be one thing if McCain was attacking Kerry on the issues but he isn't. he is making stupid comments about how Kerry needs to stop thinking about the future and focus on his Senate work. when Kerry HAS been doing that. it's McCain who isn't. he is just a jackass. fuck him. and he coudln't defend Kerry when it came to the attacks on his military service.

Kerry defended McCain when he was being attacked and he was supporting Al Gore at the time.

[LittleClarkie]

28. It was the article during the campaign

where McCain said he was weary of Kerry bringing up their friendship, that it only really existed on a professional level, which is pretty much how Kerry would bring it up. McCain never had trouble bringing it up either when he wanted to.

It isn't that he campaigned for Bush. It's that he ran up and freakin' hugged the bastard. It was grotesque. You can campaign for someone without kissing the guy's ring.

And his comments about Kerry needed to get to work and forgetting 2008. But I still don't understand how that would look different from what Kerry is already doing, which is working like a fiend.

[bunny planet]

42. If it is true that Kerry is not speaking to McCain, perhaps it is McCain's

lukewarm response to the Swift Boat Liars for Truth that made JK feel the most betrayed by John McCain. After McCain had been dragged through the mud and had his war service impugned by * in 2000, he then sucked up to him in the 2004 campaign regardless. Then, when Kerry's war service was attacked by the SBLiars McCain hardly lifted a finger to defend Kerry's honor although Kerry defended him vigorously when it happened to JM. That is not an honorable friend, professional, personal, or otherwise. I can see why JK would give him the cold shoulder. And perhaps John McCain will one day realize that sucking up to Bush actually hurt his chances of ever becoming President, not helped them. Dems who liked him and may have voted for him were turned off by his turncoat, disloyal, ass kissingly pathetic behavior, so the cross over vote he needs will not be there now. He made a big mistake.

[karynnj]

44. It may have been more the extent to which he backed Bush

He was out on the campaign trail substantially more than any other Republican.

He made one (1) measly comment on the swiftboat liars and then called on Kerry not to use it in his defense - this after Kerry defended him to the hilt on unfair comments. Kerry at least twice very quickly organized all the Senate vets to defend him - once against an Arizonian Democrat. (Kerry organized the others in support of Clealand and Kerrey.)

McCain probably spread stories that became more and more elaborate about Kerry's alleged offering him the VP slot, culminating in McCain being Kerry's only choice and Kerry swearing at him when he turned it down. Kerry was adamant that no rumors of the VP list would come out and it is likely only Kerry and McCain knew of their conversation. Even if you assume McCain was offered the slot and turned it down, that should have been held in confidence. The media, of course, took McCain's word at face value and Newsweek in particular had a story on it that portrayed Kerry very badly. Only a few weeks ago, McCain admitted that Kerry never really offered him the VP slot and complained that Kerry wasn't speaking to him. Gee, I wonder why??

[LittleClarkie]

24. I'd missed the media bits

I thought right after the election he said he'd spoken to Kerry and given him advice, while Kerry's aides had said Kerry wouldn't take McCain's phone calls.

I don't blame him. After what Bush did to McCain, to be collapsing at his feet like this.

And the way that "straight shooter" keeps shooting all over the place. How DID he get that reputation, anyway?

Kerry seems to like Santorum better. How sick is that. At least well enough to co-sponsor a bill with him and defend him a bit to Teresa.

[JI7]

27. the thing with Santorum involves Senate work which he would do with McCain

also. i'm not talking about the work one does a sa Senator and legislation and all that.

Kerry has worked with JEsse Helms and others. he has to as any Senator has to since it requires their votes to get things passed.

there was an article about McCain complaining that Kerry would ignore him. i think Kerry did speak to him a bit after or just put up with it but ddn't take it too seriously. probably was just tyring to get him to shut up and leave him alone.

but then mccain opens his mouth and spews out more shit .

[beachmom]

29. Interesting, interesting

I just remember McCain called Kerry after he lost, and Kerry hadn't returned his call (info per McCain). And I can see the body language on the Senate floor, with Kerry trying to get away from him and avoid him.

That's what bugs me -- Santorum better than McCain? totally bizarro.

I think you guys need to check in with the other side on the blogosphere. They HATE McCain, and that was DURING the 2004 campaign, because McCain would criticize * sometimes or say something too nice about Kerry. McCain condemned the Swifties (dishonorable), although then he asked the Kerry campaign to pull him from their ads. I just don't think it was as monolithic as you guys think. He is despised by Republicans everywhere. They think he practically supported Kerry for president.

I agree with many points you're making, but we have a 2 party system. McCain is a Repub. He has to defend Repubs, especially their president at least during the election. I mean I assume you're annoyed with Lieberman for his little digs at Kerry during the campaign. During a campaign, you must have party unity. Then AFTER the election, people can be more independent. I just think McCain had only 2 choices: campaign for *, blow off your friend John, and run for pres. in '08 OR don't campaign for *, stay friends with John, and stay in the Senate. He chose the first option.

His recent statements, of course bullshit, sound like presidential politics. Now he's just making a fool out of himself, but maybe he also doesn't "get" why JK is still mad at him. In his way of thinking, he did what was expected for a prominent Repub politician -- to support your party's president. Maybe his own children can help him out to explain it to him. Still, if anyone has more info . . . I admit I am facinated by this particular soap opera in the Senate.

[JI7]

31. they think Bill O'Reilly is a liberal also

of course the Republicans are upset with him the same way the Democrats attack Lieberman even though his record is mostly good and far better than Robert Byrd.

and i don't call what McCain said about the swift boat assholes a defense. it was very weak compared to what Kerry did. especially the way McCain said it. so it was pretty much a non defense.

and if he needs to treat Kerry like that to have a chance at running for president again then why would any person want to be a part of that party. so he loses any respect there also.

[beachmom]

34. that's my point

McCain is a . . . Republican. If he was the maverick that he claims to be he would have become a Bull Moose or an independent. We (and Kerry) expected too much from him. There is something wrong with the party, and McCain will not be solving that problem. But to call him a whore -- well, for me that's pushing it. He's just a Republican. And Dems need to realize this and not fall for him. Let me put it to you this way -- the way the media portrays him is incorrect. He is, plain and simple, a Republican. A maverick? Eh? Not really. But I'm not going to condemn him for defending his party. I just would never vote for him. Or expect much from him. He's just another Republican. We need to look elsewhere for a Republican who will put conscience above partisanship. That ain't McCain.

[JI7]

35. Kerry was able to defend McCain while supporting Gore

why couldn't McCain do it ? it's not a matter of party. he isn't attacking Kerry based on political issues. he is being a jackass by going to the media and telling them what Kerry needs to do as if he is Kerry's father or something.

fuck him. and he IS a whore. the media whores for him far more than they do for Bush.

yeah he is a Republican that's why the issue is not about him supporting, endorsing, campaigning for Bush. it's the shit he said about KErry and continued to AFTER the elections which hav enothing to do with politics.

[beachmom]

32. P.S. -- Hug totally yucky

Hmmmm. . .

McCain hugs *, where he looks short and goofy.

Then * kisses Lieberman at the State of the Union Address.

Poor centrists/mavericks. * will always make you look like a fool.


Kerry standing next to *. Totally presidential, intellectual, calm, cool, knowledgeable. Oh yeah, even with the same mediocre grades at Yale.

Hurray, our good liberal Senator from Mass.

[TayTay]

47. Darn it Beachmom, you have a point

and I ws feeling so damn good about trashing McCain. Sigh!

We do know that Sen. Kerry has a certain code of both honor and conduct. He acted honorably towards Bill Weld, a man he defeated for the Senate in the 96 race and even tried to help get him confirmed as Ambassador to Mexico during the last few years of the Clinton Admin. (Jesse Helsm wouldn't budge, but Kerry was more than honorable in his actions towards a former bitter opponent.)

Perhaps not everyone has this way of acting. Okay, I am using remarkable restraint here. My fingers are demanding to type something with more bite, but I will exercise restraint, in your honor my dear. (Just keep saying to yourself TayTay, you are a Proper Citizen of a Civilized Commonwealth, no more f*ck you's in public. Be a friggin lady, ferchrissakes.)

Point taken and..... and.... ahm, I gotta go. The effort overcomes me.

[beachmom]

48. The Economist on John McCain

After my oh so clever post (ha, ha), I open my brand new Economist to see an editorial on McCain. Since this article is subscription only, I'll just paraphrase -- The Economist says he's a "radical conservative". Even his maverick positions were for conservative causes. "If Mr. McCain isn't a Reagan Republican when it comes to foreign policy, then nobody is". They talk a little about Kerry -- they say that Kerry asked him to be his running mate, and the "wooing was hot and heavy". The reasons they give for why he turned him down, for which I think are on the money: 1. Personal ambition and 2. conservative principle, especially on foreign policy. McCain doesn't agree with Kerry on the big picture -- they are polar opposites.

The reason why I'm not as indignant about McCain as all of you is maybe because I wasn't watching as closely. I didn't know the history of how much Kerry helped McCain in 2000. I was disgusted by that hug, too, though. However, when McCain gave a speech in NH in January, I just thought, "ohhh ... that's why he did it". Now that I have read a lot about him, I know I could never vote for him because, although he's not bad on domestic policy (a mixed bag, really), he is a total war monger, more radical than *. But, gosh is he charming. He definitely had Kerry going, didn't he? If Kerry hadn't been so fond of him, none of this would have bothered him. I mean, Bob Dole was brutal during the campaign, and Kerry called him and yelled at him. I don't see him permanently being pissed at Dole though. He REALLY thought McCain was a good friend, but he was wrong. Interestingly (God I love this subject), McCain wants to pick back up where they left off a year ago, and can't understand why Kerry is not (and may never) be ready for that. Complete with the "hot and heavy wooing", this story keeps having legs . . .

[fedupinBushcountry]

3. Don't get sucked in

The posters that are bashing away are the same lot, they trounce on a post as soon as they see the name Kerry.

They attack with baseless Rovian comments. Stay above the frey. There was one comment about he was for it before he was against it. I remarked Rove is that you ? Well he came back and told me it was Dean who started the flip-flop, which I already knew far to well. He wanted to get something going but I answered and said i would not bash and that the infighting hurts.

Now I wanted to say and who won the primaries, so bad, but I held back. They don't think they just write words, on the whole Democrats hate this bashing of one another.

[Klimmer]

4. I'm hoping and cheering he gets it right . . .

I don't want to think about the "or else." But it is looming out there. I want him to take his time and get it right, but when the facts are on the table he better turn the boat to shore and fight like he never has before.

I want to see the fighter of his youth. When the minutes/memos are authenticated after Conyers trip (obviously, I'm hoping they will be) if JK doesn't do his most brilliant work and take the fight straight to the Bush Crime Family and the Bush Admin. (The Crime Syndicate) then I'm afraid that the man I admire and want to be President, will no longer be the same man that I hoped for and envisioned.

Bottom line, when/if the minutes and memos are authenticated, then it is more than a smoking gun, it will prove that Congress, our nation, and the world was lied to and thousands have died in a fabricated war made-up for other motives. JK voted to give Bush the authority to go to war only as a last option, when everything else was totally exhausted --- but war was Bush's first and only option. JK was lied to. The Bush Administration are criminal and should be brought to justice --- there is no other option.

[TayTay]

5. But that is exactly the point

I did some diving into the Congressional Record recently to check on various and sundry statements made over the years by Kerry on Iraq. He has been amazingly consistent since at 1991. I can see where a statement will be well-researched and hit hard. (As they did last year.)

[Mass]

6. Usual Kerry bashing from usual people

Coming from the Boston Herald, not exactly a surprise.

The " or else" part is the part I dont understand. Let people free of their judgement, and not only the small fraction of people posting on DU.

If you are unhappy with Kerry, why dont you email him.

[Mass]

8. The good news is that even some Kerry bashers have seen through the paper

and identified the Boston Herald as what it was.

[Klimmer]

14. I'm not unhappy with Kerry I admire and respect . . .

him greatly. But I am frustrated. I'll take your advice and I'll email him. I want to give him encouragement. I want him to do the right thing. If the minutes/memos are all authenticated then I want him to take the fight to the heart of the beast. I want to see the warrior of his youth.

[whometense]

15. "or else"

sounds like a threat, whether you say you like Kerry or not. Or else what? I don't want to be a thin-skinned jerk, but that bothers me.

For me, part of respecting him is to accept that though he may not do or say everything I want him to say when I want him to say it, he is working in a way that will ensure the most effective possible result. It's accepting that he just may know a better way than I do. And it's believing that the warrior is there, just more mature and experienced in the ways of Washington. Even as a youthful protester Kerry believed in working within the system to effect change, and that's what he's still doing today.

[Klimmer]

18. Maybe the "or else" wasn't the best title choice . . .

But, if the DSMs prove to be authentic and JK doesn't fight like I think and hope he will, then I guess the "or else" means I'll be further disillusioned and disappointed and realize that I admire a great man and hero of yesteryears. I don't want that to happen. I think he still has the warrior inside. I know he still has the hero inside. I can see that often as he does his Senatorial job day in and day out. I want to see the warrior. By "warrior" I mean take the fight straight to the top, and call it the way he sees it and as we all see it. The fight can still be in his own nuanced style and approach, I admire that; some righteous anger would be appropriate though. In time, I hope we will see the "warrior".

[LittleClarkie]

19. Thing is, folks seem to need a dog and pony show much of the time

so that they can FEEL like something is going on. They don't seem to realize that much of what goes on is not visible to us. Much as a loud and dramatic pronouncement would be emotionally satisfying, it doesn't seem to be Kerry's style. It took him quite a while to build up to his 1971 testimony. He spent some time about half supporting the war before he'd seen enough to convince him it was wrong.

He will quietly work on things for years before they come to fruition. I have faith in that quiet person, even if I can't see what he's doing much of the time.

[blm]

16. Why don't you counter with the facts? The headline doesn't fit the article

and the ONLY facts in the article.

They assume Kerry is backing off in the headline then give no FACT to back it up. Kerry spoke out on media silence on DSM, said he'd take it to the Senate as an issue, and is now working to get other senators on board for a letter of inquiry for an official investigation into DSM. Why is that considered backing off when a Senate inquiry on DSM is exactly what we all want?

[politicasista]

17. That is one UGLY thread

Most of it's in ignore mode. :nopity:

[kerrygoddess]

26. Hmmm...

I read the Herald piece and don't have the heart to read the thread!

I just sent an email to see if I can get anymore info!

[saracat]

30. This is exactly what I was afraid of! I said there was a "golden moment"

and why the hell the Kerry people didn't do something is beyond me. I sincerely hope there is a method to this madness.Kerry is not doing nothing but he did not take advantage of the publicity he could have gotten.And I don't know why.I have heard reasons but I don't buy most of them. I wish to God he would jump out in front with this.He has nothing to lose and everything to gain!

[politicasista]

33. I was afraid something like this was going to happen too

I thought it would help him in the long run and decrease some of the bashing. See negativity part II post.

[kerrygoddess]

39. Back up! Kerry is very methodical.

He'll still get publicity, do not worry!

[saracat]

45. But he does not have a team who understand "carpe diem". I am not dumping

on Kerry per se. I understand that he is methodical. And he is a prosecutor. But his PR Team stinks and is equally as bad as they were during the election! Remember the 180 form? Well, he signed it and no one noticed.What about the renewed swiftie attacks? No response again! Kerry is doing great things and isn't being covered. You can only blame the media so far.Kerry is also a product and his people have NO sense of product placement.It is their job to get him coverage and they don't do it. You would be surprised at the coverage he could get if someone only tried. In my experience the Democratic Party sucks at PR and unfortunately is refusing to learn.
I am optimistic about Kerry the man, but I am not optimistic about his PR.This has nothing to do with what he is or is not actually doing but how it is being spun.And they are allowing a negative spin!

[Mass]

46. That part, I agree with you

For the DSM, there either should have been a formal statement or no leaks at all.

This situation with leaks, but nothing arriving gives bashers a reason to bash.

[Mass]

43. kerry is not the type of person who jumps wildly.

He prepares everything and this is one of his strength.

Obviously, many people do not understand that, but we have to accept it (at least as a sign of respect for the person. For him, this seems to be less a question of getting recognition (sometimes this drives me crazy as well), and more a question of doing the right thing.

I disagree with the notion he has nothing to lose. If anything, dan Rather and 60 Minutes should have learned us that people should be careful if they do not want to make a stupid mistake and discredit a real story.

If what he has in mind is the good of the American people and not his own popularity in some activist circles, he is doing the right thing, even if sometimes we wished he acts more quickly.

[whometense]

36. OK. I know I'm among the most Pollyanna-esque

of all Kerry supporters, but this is getting silly.

Kerry is Kerry. He will do things his own way and in his own time. He will work in the most effective way possible. If that means he's not front and center, that's his choice. And I'm ok with it.

You know, this is one of the biggest reasons I feel the way I do about him. If he jumped all over this only in order to get attention he wouldn't be the man I admire so much.

[politicasista]

37. I love you guys optimism

:hi:

[JI7]

38. and he is up front on other issues

it's like the whole Gannon thing which DU was focused on but there were many other things going on.

the judicial nominations, Bolton,environment,health issues etc. and why aren't any other Senators up front on the DSM thing. if people really cared about it they would be contacting all of them to do something about it rather than just complaining and whining on DU about Kerry. but as i said before i don't think these people really care, they just want to attack and act like victims.

[kerrygoddess]

40. Just posted news on LUTD

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=1113

[politicasista]

41. They finally locked it.