How can liberals be so heartless and dumb

[TayTay]

Read this: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/bio/userletter/?id=20004&letter_id=396563051&content_dir=politicsol

Now read this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4145003

Why are these DUers Democrats? They show no compassion for the poor and ridicule them for their beliefs. This woman is in trouble. Her husband is in trouble. She voted for * based on her view that he had strong moral values. She is now seeing that this is not so. She is also dealing with unbelievable and unbearable trauma.

Isn't the Democratic Party supposed to be the ones who repond to people like this? Can't we fashion a response that speaks to her and tries to get her vote instead of spitting in her face and laughing because she 'got what she deserved.'

Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm too old-fashioned. But I think cold, heartless and cruel responses like this are what is wrong with Democrats today. I would never, ever support candidate who told that woman to get lost because she didn't vote for him or her. How disgusting that some of the allegedly liberal left wants to do just that.

[sandnsea]

1. What I said yesterday about Byrd

Tennessee has 5 D Congressmen and 4 R. To me, the reason people like Wilma believe what they believe is because the Dems IN THEIR OWN STATES don't stand up for Dem Party principles. They have bought into the "liberal label" themselves, or are too afraid their constituents have, and that they'll lose if they challenge these core ideas people have about liberals. Like "mollycoddling criminals". I'm all for building the grassroots, the south, and all the rest; but not if it means letting them contiue to perpetuate nonsense that makes it harder for the rest of the country to progress. I've known people like Wilma, it's just stunning to listen to somebody living in low income housing crapping on Dems. It's hard to feel sympathy when they lose their benefits and their job doesn't earn them enough to support their family, what the hell did they think would happen when they voted in Pubs?

[TayTay]

2. They thought that the moral values would translate

into moral actions. They drank the kool aid.

They also vote. We need to get them back. Insulting them and telling them that they are on their own because of how they voted will insure that they never vote for Dems again. And we lose again. And again. And again.

What, in your experience, has broken through the haze of Faux News and the MSM and actually affected change in the way people like Wilma vote?

Why is Oregon blue and Tennessee is not? Which liberal position, clearly articulated, would have changed Tennesse from red to blue?

Why didn't Kerry carry a single one of the 100 fastest growing exurbs in the US? Why did Kerry win so overwhelmingly in all those cities with populations over 100,000?

[whometense]

6. I think it's all about

fear. Fear of them furriners. Fear of terrorists. Fear of "the gays." What it's really about is exploitation of their fear of the unknown. The only way I know to combat that is to enlighten them through education and exposure. But that's slow.

The other way is, sadly, waiting for their lives to get so difficult that their backs are up against the wall, and they are forced to look another way.

[sandnsea]

9. It's about loving their lives

Things are simple, things are working, generations in the same town, the same house alot of times. City folk need to make changes, what have you, fine. Just don't come to their little towns and tell them to change the way they do things, don't fix what's not broken, in their minds. And in alot of ways, they're right. Why does a school with 300 kids with no disabilities need to go into millions of dollars of debt to meet the disabilities act? These schools go way out of their way to make sure every kid learns, because it's their neighbors and their families that they're teaching. I understand that frustration when faced with a regulation that is really a waste of money for them. At the same time, I think too many Dems pander to this kind of thinking without trying to get rural folks to be empathetic to different needs around the country. I'd hoped that Dean would do that, but it seems to me he's doing more of the pandering instead of helping create language that would really bridge the gaps.

[sandnsea]

7. Oregon is traditionally progressive

We have an entire coastline that is public because of progressive Republicans. The bottle bill came in with Republicans. Oregon Republicanism came in more through that 1800's grange farmer and 1900's Teddy Roosevelt progressive Republican. Montana is actually alot the same, see Jeanette Rankin. As I've said before, the west is also "live and let live", like the northeast, we have traditionally kept our religion to ourselves. Unlike the northeast, we had also kept our politics to ourselves, it seems to me. That's why we don't have the heavyweights of the northeast, perhaps.

Anyway, there are some people I don't bother with, usually the religious. Another group, like that vet friend, I avoid hot button issues and tell them things they didn't know. I tell them how things would be better with Democrats. Problem is, when I spend x amount of time discussing why the liberal Democrat's approach to crime is better, it doesn't help to have Byrd turn around and call it "mollycoddling". There was a post yesterday about Mississippi, the ACLU is finally down there taking cases for people who are being put in jail for not being able to pay things like traffic tickets, and having no access to attorneys in the process. So, we're down there "mollycoddling", according to Byrd I guess. I don't know how any outside Dem is supposed to deal with that. It's their cultural issue.

Another interesting thing is the recent polls. Bush was rating 60% last summer, but has plummeted to around 45% in alot of areas. That's the Republican Lie Machine, and if swing state Dems don't call it what it is, we'll always have this problem. Instead, too often, they repeat the lies because it's easier than trying to educate their voters on the truth.

I don't know the answers to this mess. I agree with you, spitting in people's faces isn't a solution. I'm just saying I understand the frustration.

[Island Blue]

12. This issue is a very frustrating one for me.

I have a lot of people in my life (relatives and my best friend) who you would think should be rock-solid Democrats but instead are Bush Loving Republicans.

Wilma doesn't say it in her letter, but my guess is that she's very religious. This in a nut shell (no pun intended) is why my relatives and friend vote Repuke. I have an aunt who ALMOST voted for Kerry. (She lives in SC so it really wouldn't have mattered if she voted for him 100 times, but that's not the point.) My aunt is single and a small business owner with health problems but absolutely no health insurance. It was in her best interest to vote for Kerry and she knew it. (She's not stupid.) Her son, my liberal cousin, had for all intents and purposes convinced her to vote for Kerry but in the end she didn't. Why? Morals, or more precisely the perceived lack of morals on the part of Bill Clinton. I know you are saying that makes absolutely no sense to you (and what the hell does that have to do with John Kerry) and I agree, it makes absolutely no sense to me either but it does to her and to millions like her.

The Republican Church has worked very hard over the past 30 years or so to redefine the word "morals" and to convince its members that their new definition is the only definition. Somehow (to them) George Bush is a "moral family man". They don't see the corporate whoring, war loving, freedom stealing GWB that we see.

There are also other reasons why these folks consistently vote Repuke. Fear and race are right there on the top of the list along with "morals". Sorry for being so long winded and boring with this post. This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart because I'm surrounded by it and at the same time fascinated by the phenomena and very frustrated by it. I would love to figure out solution to the problem but alas, right now I don't have one. Again, sorry for the longwinded post!

[sandnsea]

19. Not just religious "values" either though

It's all kinds of things they value, and they are never in a cazillion years going to put money before their values. They expect to barely scratch out a living, all they've got are their values and traditions. Things like the Christmas program, parental control, outdoor activities, praying before a football game; it all matters to them and they don't want to change. It isn't about fear, it's about having a good thing going, they love their lives. Hell I live in rural America, I love it too. Of course, my rural area isn't quite as rural as some. :)

[sandnsea]

18. Look at this

Immigration is an excellent example. Tons of people who consider themselves Democrats who blame all our employment problems on immigrants, buy into them all being on welfare, etc. It's a complicated issue, made more complicated by 9/11. Throw in politicians who will just play politics with it (both sides) and say any old thing, and it makes it damned hard to get a coherent Democratic policy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1953821&mesg_id=1953821

[JohnKleeb]

21. Well I am very glad that Dean criticized the minuitemen and Tancredo

I am very sympathetic to immigrants since I went to school with many of them and there are many members of my family who are first generation Americans. Anyhow if we embrace the paleocon/Tancredo view on immigration as a party, Republicans will continue to make inroads with Hispanic voters.

[Pirate Smile]

3. I've noticed more bashing of Republican kids and wives lately and

I don't like it.

There is no need to go there and it is starting to really piss me off.

People seem to slipping easier into dehumanizing the other side's kids and families, or assigning bad or evil motives to everything they do (the families, not the politicians).

It isn't good.

:-(

[JohnKleeb]

22. Ive seen threads refering to John Roberts kids as Aryans

What the fuck is that about, theyre white, so what. Thing that drives me nuts is they dont see anything wrong with it. Agh tell ya I feel like leaving daily if this crap continues. Go after Roberts for what he may be deciding on the court not that he adopted at age 40.

[WildEyedLiberal]

4. I saw that disgusting thread last night

Those people aren't liberals. Liberals by definition practice compassion and kindness towards all regardless of ideology, religion, race, or status in life. These people may be left-wingers (or, more likely, progressives :eyes: ), but they are not liberals.

[whometense]

5. That is so sad.

He betrayed the faith those poor people put in him. They may have been misguided, but they don't deserve the abuse they're getting from either * or those "democrats".

That seems like the obvious message to me. He betrayed your trust. All the republicans who vote his way betrayed your trust. We want these people to try a different way. Try voting for people who mean what they say: democrats.

[Noisy Democrat]

10. On the one hand

I agree. The bashing is terrible, and yes, it's sad that people feel betrayed by Bush. OTOH, I understand why many Democrats feel betrayed by fellow Americans who didn't take the time to listen to what Kerry was saying, didn't research Bush's record, didn't *think* before they voted to send that guy back to Washington. I don't think that abusing the people who voted for Bush is cool, but I can see why some of the people who are reacting the way they are would *also* feel betrayed -- betrayed by our fellow Americans who didn't do their homework and who have left us in this terrible situation.

[wisteria]

8. How ignorant!

Is it me or do most of them sound like many Daily Kos members?

[JI7]

11. i think it's understandable how they feel

if they were given the choice on whether she should get help or not i'm sure most would say she should.

but i think most of the comments have more to do with the long time frustration they feel against these people who view Bush as some morally good person. it's a thing we had to put up with constantly and which was used many times as an excuse for Bush's fucked up policies. "oh, but at least he is a good family man" as if Gore or Kerry were not.

much of it is probably just letting out steam on a Democratic forum.

a chat room i use to go to had this one woman who worked at Wal Mart. she was a Republican and spewed their shit. then one day she lost her job for some unfair reason. she was complaining and asking what she should do. those of us on the liberal side did provide her with info on where she can get help and what she should do. but there was still a lot of anger at her for not caring until it became personal to her. if it was anyone else that it happpened to she wouldn't have cared. and this seems similar to me.

[JohnKleeb]

13. I am glad this upsets you too

Since it upsets me just as much. We are people after all first. I feel bad for the woman, wish she would have voted for Kerry but mocking her and ridiculing her I think is just about the lowest thing anyone could do. I guess the problem isnt that Ive been moved to the "center" by people like this but that I share different values than them. Another thing I thought about is if theyre gonna do to this to sick women, I wonder what they would do to guys in our armed forces, sad to admit but the armed forces is heavily republican, that doesnt make them bad people of course, so would the same people mocking Ms. Wilma be mocking them. Sad to say I think so, which honestly shows that some of their talk about bring the troops home isnt for the soldiers or whatever. Sigh how can liberals be so mean spirited and cruel, we're supposed to be the compassionate, understanding ones damnit.

[MH1]

14. A nice response on that thread..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4145003&mesg_id=4145096

ThomWV (1000+ posts) Wed Jul-20-05 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. We Democrats Have Failed This Woman

She should not be writing to George W. Bush to beg for help, she should be writing to a Democrat to thank him or her for the help she got.

We should not be mean to this sick, poor, old, ignorant, deluded, Republican. We should be the one fixing her problem. That incompetent son of a bitch in the White House sure won't do it.

There is a good back and forth following it, which I think gets to the essence of what politics is about.

Think of this: when Kerry and Kennedy (and Romney, IIRC) worked to get relief for fishermen affected by red tide, they weren't asking how those people voted. (Well, to be fair, I guess there are plenty of voting statistics that could have told them. But I don't think it would have made a difference).

I think the real issues for Democrats are:

* finding ways to help people like this
* honestly recognizing who is harmed by legislation Democrats are pushing, and working hard to mitigate the harm while retaining as much benefit as possible;
* effectively marketing what we are doing and how it helps people.

Then people like this woman would have reason to thank a Democrat and she would know about it.

[JI7]

15. she needs to acknowledge the mistake she made

and how it's common among many who vote for Bush and other Republicans.

we shouldn't just let it slide and view them as victims.

Democrats stand for things such as helping others which we will always do, including helping those who vote Republican.

but one of the reasons our party isn't doing so well is because of people who think Bush is some kind of great moral leader. many of these people say disgusting things about Democrats including horrible things about Teresa and other Dem wives.

[sandnsea]

23. "effectively marketing"

You got that. Seems some think that being a liberal only means pointing out everything that's wrong. That gets old in a hurry. When Republicans fight for the unborn, the message is that they care about everybody. When they fight for the 2nd Amendment, the message is they'll die for the Constitution. They know you have to "effectively market" what you're FOR and make a big hoopla when you have any wins whatsoever. Even when we have small gains, we point to where we failed instead of where we were right. Or at least a segment of the left does and it's hard for the rest of the Democratic Party to talk over them.

[CBHagman]

16. A big problem is the moral tin ear in the media et al.

Years ago the Utne Reader published an article on how the mainstream media depicted indulging in rich foods as "sinful" but generally didn't apply the term to other actions.

The mainstream media (e.g., The Washington Post) also selectively criticizes sexual behavior in public figures while turning a blind eye to a good deal of other bad behavior. We'll never be allowed to forget Monica Lewinsky, but the Post doesn't, for example, refer to the indifferent parenting, much-indicted administration, serial marriages, or business failures of Republicans or right-wing media figures.

And you can also get away with justifying your politics by pasting terms related to faith and virtue -- i.e., "culture of life," "compassion," etc. -- over the most shortsighted, mean-spirited policies and ideas known to humankind. George W. Bush is known to be hot-tempered and vindictive, yet the press has taken his rhetoric very seriously.

The strict father morality that George Lakoff speaks of is what's familiar in the United States, and people apparently don't stop to compare it to what is really said in the Scriptures, or they would be very uncomfortable with things like downsizing, regressive taxation, and preemptive war.

So people buy into the notion that the rich and poor deserve their respective lots, that what's unfamiliar is morally wrong, and that their own personal lots will eventually improve. It requires a shutting one's eyes to a great deal, but that's actually not very difficult in today's world. There are so many demands and distractions, and it's possible no one ever really challenged these people's thinking, either at church, school, or work.

I do believe this horrific situation can change (I'm old enough to remember a different America), and I hope that the turning point has arrived or will soon.

As for the Wilmas of the country and the world, I hope they get help AND their eyes opened.

[TayTay]

17. Do you think the Dem initiative with Lib Christians will help

Gov Dean has a Dem polci comm set up for Liberal and friendly religious denominations to give 'advice and instruction' to the Dem Party on religious and moral issues. These include an enphasis on the morality of budgets, the morality of rich and poor and what the Bible actually says about poverty and the responsibility of society in dealing with it.

What say you on this?

[Island Blue]

20. I think this is an excellent first step.

While I don't think it will help win very many votes from true, kool-aid drinking fundies, I think it will help with more moderate religious folks who may have voted for * because of his perceived morality. (Ha!) Maybe they just need a little reminding of what true values are.

Having said that though, I think Dean's biggest challenge with an initiative like this will be from some members of his own party who see any mention of religion in the context of politics to be totally unacceptable.

[LittleClarkie]

24. We can't assume they're Dems

Not on this site, anyway. Many DUers are much farther to the left than the Dem Party. I find the lefty freepers to be as cold as the righty ones.

[TayTay]

25. It's just so sad

It seems to negate being a Dem. What is the point if genuine compassion falls prey to petty revenge and a desire to watch someone 'get what's coming to them.'

I agree, there are warped souls on both the left and the right.