Am I the only one who thinks we have been had by the Rove machine today

[Mass]

Normally, the fact that the VP's chief of staff is indicted should be a huge thing, particularly this one who is also an aide to Bush.

However, I cannot help thinking that the rumors these last few days about 10 or 20 indictments and all that were pushed by the Bush WH so that they can now minimize what is happening.

And of course, the net roots followed as quickly as they could. The same net roots that take ANY rumor that is planted there and pushes it without considering the consequences.

I have been thinking for a while now (since the bulge and Rathergate, in fact) that they were getting very good at pushing rumors that seem to go against them, but are finally unsubstantiated. The loonies on our side push it as a winning talking points, insult our representatives because they know better.

During this time, they change the subject from a really important issue that passes without too many controversy (until it is too late) or raise the expectations so high that what should be a victory looks like a minor fact.

Am I too Machiavellian to imagine that all these things are manipulated by the Rove machine?

[politicasista]

1. No, you're not. I kinda feel the same way

I don't know why it feels like we have fallen into a Rovian trap. The indictment is good but it feels incomplete.

[Mass]

2. It feels incomplete because for the last two weeks, it was rumored there

would be a lot more. I dont think these rumors were innocent.

[beachmom]

3. Well, I haven't watched any news yet today, but . . .

About yesterday or the day before I decided I wasn't going to believe any of the speculation. I still feel very burned by those exit poll numbers from election day, and actually considered not reading blogs anymore, because I felt like the liberal blogs were living in an alternate universe where Kerry won only to come crashing down to the real world, where Bush was still president. Later I found out that both campaigns and all the major news networks had the same info, so after that I vowed to check the source for anything I read to determine how trustworthy it could be. None of the rumors were worth a damn this week, until the NYT and WSJ reported last night what was going to happen. No conspiracy. Just humans playing telephone and wildly speculating on stuff they don't have firsthand knowledge about. Maybe Rove can get a mini bounce out of it not being him thus far, but reality of this indictment will sink in over time.

[JI7]

4. i agree with you

this is actually what they almost always do. lower expectations or raise them in a way which will benefit them. even if the outcome is not positive.

the Gannon thing was another one. just the facts that we knew were enough to go after the Bush administration on. but the "looneys" kept bringing up all these conspiracy theories.

[sandnsea]

5. Probably

I suspected that Karl was pushing the focus onto Libby a few days ago, that Libby was going to be blamed even if Karl was indicted. Hard to say what all has been going on behind the scenes and who made what deals. The good news is Libby leads to PNAC. I hope the blogosphere will be on that by Monday. CNN had a web shot of the PNAC web site, but I haven't seen anything on it since then. That is a way to get the reason why people suspect this cabal of planning the war for a long time out in the mainstream.

[fedupinBushcountry]

6. This is not over

by a long shot. Remember this is still hanging over the WH. As someone just said on KO, each day Rove is still in the WH it is bad.

I was very impressed with Fitzgerald, and I have a feeling there will be more coming. He is a truth man, just like another prosecutor we all know and love.

[whometense]

7. I agree with you.

The MSM hacks are spinning it as - "whew! that was close!", but I'm not buying it. I think Fitzgerald was thoroughly professional, cordial, but unbelievably tight with the information. I don't think it's over at all.

Plus, I stumbled across this at firedoglake, from which I've been getting all my best Plame info:

But hopes were set high that an array of GOP scalps would be waving in the wind by this time today, and that was not the case. Did we pin them unrealistically on a man and a situation to whom they did not rightfully belong? Perhaps.

But perhaps the only thing in the situation that is wonting is time.

If I were Karl Rove right now, I'd be kicking myself around the room. The thing that got him into this mess in the first place is spinning shit he didn't need to spin, and it looks like he's done it once again.

Fitzgerald held his cards close today, and gave no indication that Rove was on the hook for anything, giving pause to many who were hoping that he would give some signal that Turdy's goose was yet to be cooked. But on Thursday evening, Rove's people were spinning furiously to everyone who would sit still -- NYT, WSJ, AP -- telling them that Rove was not going to be indicted today, but his attorneys had been told that he was "still under investigation."

Wow. If they'd just shut up, all the talking heads would be chattering today about how Rove was in the clear. Flip on the TV and listen for a while, and hear how even partisan wonks like Andrea Mitchell and Bob Woodward -- who are certainly parroting every other talking point Unka Karl sent them out with today -- are still not saying that Rove is in the clear. They don't know what the fuck to say. The queen is dead and the Borgs are are wandering around aimlessly bashing into one another.

I think Fitzgerald is being e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y careful. He's got Scooter dead-to-rights. So now he just squeezes till he gets what he wants. My guess is he wants Big Dick.

[Mass]

8. I agree it is not finished, but in this world, unfortunately a lot is

appearance and, with these rumors, they succeeded in giving the impression that it is not big deal (for now at least).

I was very impressed by Fitzgerald and it is clear that he is only saying what he wants to say.

I am just concerned by their ability to manipulate both the media and some blogs. They are too good at that.

[fedupinBushcountry]

9. MSM makes me sick

They should be all over this administration. My God Libby put the blame on the media. When will they ever get some cajones.

[Island Blue]

10. I get upset when considering how much time & energy

was wasted by the MSM talking about Bill Clinton and his pants, in comparison to the amount of effort (or lack there of) they've put into seriously discussing this case. I think it's pathetic that they apparently think that sex has to be involved for a White House scandal to be worthy of discussion.

[JI7]

11. that's one reason i get even more disgusted with these Republicans

how they get on and try to make this out to be nothing or complain about it in any way. when i think of what they did and said during the Clinton thing with Monica i just want to yell at them on their hypocrisy and double standards.

how could they look at the way they reacted then to something that wasn't an issue and try to minimize what is going on now.

i fucking hate Republicans.

[ray of light]

15. I think he has his sights higher.

I think he's waiting for Rove to slip up.

He's investigating the nigerian documents.

He's investigating Cheney.

And who knows..if we're lucky Bush.

No...I think he's going one step at a time. Get the facts on one..flip a few...and he's laying his cards out nice and slowly. Maybe in the meantime twisting a screw here or there.

It's not done by a long shot. Not on something that involves the W.H.

He's being careful.

My opinion...he layed out ONE sure thing, to make sure he can keep investigating the rest much more carefully.

[TayTay]

16. Fitz is going to presecute a legal case

He will go with indictments on those he can reasonably think he can prosecute in a court of law. That's his job.

This is an opening and a crack in the wall that has protected this White House from being accountable for it's actions. It's not Fitzgerald's job to make the political case that the War in Iraq was based on lies. That is the job of the opposition party, the Democrats. (There are no shortcuts in this. There never have been.)

The Democrats in Congress now have a golden opportunity to re-open the debate with the American people over what happened and how we got to where we are. That is their job as politicians and as 'the loyal opposition.' The door is now open, they have to walk through it.

All Dems should now sign John Kerry's letter to investigate the DSM. We want to know what happened. We have a right to know what happened. It's time for Congress to stop acting as Bush's doormat and do their friggin jobs. And if they can't or won't do them, then America needs to clean house (and Senate) next year and put in people who respect the truth.

[ray of light]

17. TayTay, I'm not sure if his job is to look at a forged docs

because if I as a private citizen can get charged if I file a false report at the police station (and get charged lots of court costs too) then isn't the forged documents that led to our national guard and our homeland security being moved an equivalent crime?

[TayTay]

28. I don't know. But it seems to me that someone with proper

clearance and credentials and knowledge should be looking at them and looking at them honestly. Fitzgerald is a prosecutor and he was charged to look into the possibility of illegal acts being committed when Plame's name and job became public knowledge. He was charged with figuring out if the leak was a crime, who did it and if it warranted charges being brought. His charge of obstruction against Libby yesterday, it seems to me, shows that he thinks he couldn't get to the bottom of the initial leak inquiry because he was blocked by the White House and by Libby.

The peripheral stuff that comes up from this surrounds the political circumstances that lead us to war. That is not Fitzgerald's domain. It is a political discussion that country seems about ready to engage in.

(I could be wrong. I am not a lawyer and am puzzling this out myself. Please, please, please feel free to jump in and have at any of the stuff I just wrote. It can only lead to a better understanding of what is going on. Again, nobody died and made me queen of law. I'm just trying to puzzle it out too!)

[ray of light]

38. Also it's like Casey

At the Democracy Cell Project reminded us--LIBBY is the PRESIDENT'S assistant!

And we have to keep linking them together to the media and to people we talk to.

http://www.democracycellproject.net/blog/archives/2005/10/libby_works_for.html

[babylonsister]

23. Can I get a link to JK's letter, RE: DSM? Thanks! nt

[TayTay]

41. Oh dear. I was late posting this.

My apologies my dear. This is on the Downing Street Memo site.

(I also saw that Sen. Dianne Feinstein has a letter requesting that the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence hold their second set of hearings on intelligence and the build-up to war. Very nice. http://feinstein.senate.gov/05releases/r-intel-robrts.htm)

http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/2005/06/senator-kerry-co-demand-dsm.html

The letter needs to be signed by all Dems (and should be signed by all Repubs of honor as well. Sigh!)

Now is the time to repress this. An excerpt from the DSM letter:

Last year your committee completed the first phase of a two-phased effort to review the pre-war intelligence on Iraq. Phase I-begun in the summer of 2003 and completed in the summer of 2004-examined the performance of the American intelligence community in the collection and analysis of intelligence prior to the war, including an examination of the quantity and quality of U.S. intelligence on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and the intelligence on ties between Saddam Hussein's regime and terrorist groups. At the conclusion of Phase I, your committee issued an unclassified report that made an important contribution to the American public's understanding of the issues involved.

In February 2004-well over a year ago-the committee agreed to expand the scope of inquiry to include a second phase which would examine the use of intelligence by policy makers, the comparison of pre-war assessments and post-war findings, the activities of the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group (PCTEG) and the Office of Special Plans in the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, and the use of information provided by the Iraqi National Congress.

The committee's efforts have taken on renewed urgency given recent revelations in the United Kingdom regarding the apparent minutes of a July 23, 2002, meeting between Prime Minister Tony Blair and his senior national security advisors. These minutes-known as the "Downing Street Memo"-raise troubling questions about the use of intelligence by American policy makers-questions that your committee is uniquely situated to address.

The memo indicates that in the summer of 2002, at a time the White House was promising Congress and the American people that war would be their last resort, that they believed military action against Iraq was "inevitable."

The minutes reveal that President "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

The American people took the warnings that the administration sounded seriously-warnings that were echoed at the United Nations and here in Congress as we voted to give the president the authority to go to war. For the sake of our democracy and our future national security, the public must know whether such warnings were driven by facts and responsible intelligence, or by political calculation.

[karynnj]

32. The Democrats need to sign Senator Kerry's letter

Even though only Libby is currently indicted, the seismic difference is that the press is now talking about the possibility that the Bush administration INTENTIONALLY hid the truth about WMD. That the Republicans are trying to argue that Clinton, Kerry etc had the same information on WMD is very telling. Making this argument in parallel to the Libby charges of lying absolutely weakens (obliterates) the argument.

As far as the war goes, this is not the only damning accusation that could be made against Bush. Having lied about the seriousness of the threat posed by Saddam to the Congress, the country and the world, they got the UN to act. Saddam, for once not acting like a loose cannon, let the inspectors in and allowed them to destroy missiles. At this point, the WMD argument was dead (or dying) and there was no Al Queda link. Nothing in the IWR allowed Bush to go to war at this point. (This is NOT an issue for the law because there is plenty of precedent for the CIC's power to go to war.)

In the court of public opinion, the disinformation of our media from March 2003 till recently has hidden the fact that inspections (by any sane judgment - they were destroying missiles and inspecting Presidential palaces) were working. At this point the impact of the IWR was positive - Iraq was complying with the 1991 rulings - with Saddam ruling the country or not, this could have been a major positive step in the ME. Bush's invasion at this point was his decision alone - they should get the blame.

Kerry is taking the high road, in his speech and in the interviews, by saying that there is blame enough to go around and saying we can't rewind time - and instead put out a plan of how to sanely get out of Iraq. He is right, with people still dying, the US reputation is shatters, resolving the war is the most important thing to do.

However, Senator Kerry's DSM letter is saying we need Part II of the WMD. In addition to personal vindication (they were lied to), there is a high minded reason to get the facts of how one branch of government deceived a co-equal branch of government. The problem may be intrinsic to the way the intelligence information (instead of going equally to the executive branch and the legislative branch) goes to the executive branch which can filter it on its way to the legislative branch. That in itself is a problem - although here they went way beyond filtering to "making up" information. The legislative branch is supposed to have oversight - which they can't have if they are blindfolded. This is an issue of checks and balances.

What's interesting to me is that these are the two key issues concerning Iraq - by far the elephant of all issues facing the country and look who is clearly leading in both cases. Not Hillary, the super star of the MSM - quiet on both issues.

The big change may be that the distortion of information will be publicly talked about and that the media may become more foreright in looking at what is really happening in Iraq.

[TayTay]

42. Wonderful and insightful post Karyn.

The inspectors were going their job, right up until Bush warned them to get out because the invasion was imminent. The news media does bare a great deal of the responsibility for beating the drums of war and they haven't done anything to question the build-up and the intelligence until, well, now. (The Judy Miller episode at the New York Times is a disgrace. She was a member of the White House Iraq Group. She was fed the false info so that Cheney and others could then go on tv and point to the stories in the Times as proof that Saddam had WMD and was not cooperating. It was an incestuous circle and the Times seems to only now be waking up to how awful that truly was.)

I also agree that Sen. Kerry has been out front in trying to get some action and accountability hearings in Congress. This lack of oversight and extreme reluctance of the Repubs to do their Constitutionally mandated jobs is infuriating. All by itself, that is a severe test of our government. The branches are co-equal and have to compete to a certain extent for the system of 'checks and balances' to have any real meaning. The Repubs are endangering that relationship with their refusal to investigate anything. Sen. Kerry was right way back at the beginning of the year when he noted that the poisonous attitude in Washington was the worst he had ever seen. (And he lived through Vietnam and Watergate and Iran-Contra. That is deeply disturbing news.)

I am going to send Kerry's office a snail-mail letter asking him to reintroduce the DSM letter to the Dem caucus. I think times may have changed and a lot more Dems might be open to it now. And he has to go on the 'talking heads' shows and push this. It's very important and, as you said, goes to the heart of his and Congress' being lied to.

[TayTay]

12. Am I disappointed? Hell no! This was great!

Read this first! (Cuz it's brilliant and true!)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5210540

We have to stop acting like long-time abuse victims here. We have those freaking bastards by the short and curlies and Fitzgerald is just starting to squeeze the tender parts. This isn't the end, hell, it's just barely the beginning.

Today was a major milestone in the quest to bring accountability and responsibility to a White House that believes it owes neither to the American people. One of the chief architects of the War in Iraq is going to go on trial for lying to a federal prosecutor about outing a covert agent of the CIA. That trial is going to be a doozy and will receive saturation media coverage. Think about that for a minute. Wall to freakin wall coverage of who did what when, and why they thought they had to do it. This will rival Watergate, wait and see.

Now chew on this for a minute. We have had a press core that acted like Bush descended from heaven and they had to kneel and approach his throne on bended knee. Only, this sleeping giant is starting to wake up. The New York Times is starting to remember that they are a friggin newspaper and not a bunch of Rethug toadies and are just starting to flex their reportorial muscles. They have a lot to atone for and I see signs that they are going to go balls out in investigating this lying band of corrupt asswipes in the White House. And the rest of the media will follow.

Sen. Rockefeller has suddenly remember that he is on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and that that committee promised America an accounting of what the fuck happened in the build-up to Iraq and why the intelligence was manipulated and bungled. Sen. Rockefeller seems to have suddenly remembered that he is a friggin Democrat and that these lying bastards are accountable to the Congress and to the American people. Rocky is finally calling for that 2nd round of investigations to occur and that is based on what happened today. (Hello? Anyone remember Kerry's DSM letter? Well, I bet Rocky does now. hehehehehe.)

The Bush White House is in a shambles. The war in Iraq is not going well for them, the American people have turned against them and they have people facing criminal charges. Their nominee for SCOTUS had to withdraw because their own allies in the Senate knifed her in the back. Now Bush has to appoint a Bork-like figure which will trigger a united Democratic front and a possible filibuster. Game faces on, people, this is going to get good.

The response to Katrina, Rita and now Wilma has exposed these jerks as having no compassion and no fucking clue how to govern a nation. The symbol of the Bush Administration is not a strong leader who doesn't waver (the Miers withdrawal contravenes that) but of good ole Brownie who complained that he couldn't finish his expensive meal cuz all the poor people kept interrupting him. That is the Bush Admin and that image doesn't go away. Not now, not ever.

And good ole Jack Abramoff and the real corruption and money-running and sleaze hasn't even hit the fan yet.

These lying bastards are toast. Hell no, I'm not disappointed in today. And the attempt by a bunch of mouth-breathing morons to convince me that 'oh it wasn't so bad' is laughably bad. Go home freepers, kiss your wife and kids goodnight. There just might be a knock at the door and a subpoena waiting for you. You lying sacks of horse-shit deserve it. I hope you get rendition. And treason is the only crime in the Constitution that specifically has the death penalty attached to it. It's that important.

I am filled with sweetness and light tonight. Cuz today I saw the begin inning of the downfall of the most evil, lying, unfeeling, amoral and vicious regime in American history. And they are going to get what's coming to them. And I couldn't be happier.

For LC:
Hello, my name is America. You killed my country: prepare to die. Now, offer me money.
Rethug: Yes.
Dems: Power too. Promise me that.
Rethugs : All that I have and more. Please...
Dems: Offer me everything I ask for.
Rethugs : Any thing you want.
Dems: I want my country back, you lying sons of bitches.
(sound of a prison door clanging shut on a lying traitor.)

That's how I feel.

[ginnyinWI]

13. excellent rant, TayTay

I too feel very hopeful; this is only the first step. Watergate took what, two years before everything came out? And we know this bunch is worse.

I watched Newshour and some other TV tonight, and saw some good discussions. The Repubs are in disarray. Each one gives his own take on the problems they face--but as an outsider, I can see them far more clearly. They are like dead men walking who don't know they're goners. They don't realize that their party is falling apart around them. Jay Sekulow thinks that all it will take is "one good fight" over a SC nominee to reunite the party again. David Brooks is minimizing it all, thinking that it's good that at least they didn't find a broad conspiracy. His voice sounded bubbly as usual, but his eyebrows were knotted into a frown.

Shields said, in that funny way he has of acting like he's telling a secret, that "The WH is out of gas"--and that since Rove is staying, nothing will change for the better. We should be glad that Rover's still there, because he's not that good a policy wonk (better at election smears than anything else), and * hasn't had a good track record since he stepped in as *'s principle advisor.

I see the handwriting on the wall: the sun is setting on the era of the GOP, at least for a while. Thanks to Bush and his "associates" in crime. Make no mistake: Libby was a major player, and his loss will severely weaken the VP and the WH. And coming right after Miers, DeLay, Frist, Katrina, Cindy Sheehan, Bolton, the failed SS privatization scam, and let's not forget Iraq, above all-- it's even worse.

[TayTay]

14. They can unite their base all they want

They have lost the soccer moms and the independent that joined with their 'base' to win them elections. Thost people are gone.

Sure this particular corpse is still animated. But it's a dead man walking. We have trials to go through here. The damage is just beginning and no amount of ass-covering tonight is going to make that go away.

And that handsome, determined, lovely prosecutor with the angelic face and the ball of steel was very, very convincing.

I haven't been this hopeful in years. These bastards can spin all they want. It's over.

They have been INDICTED for a major crime. And that is but the tip of the iceberg.

[whometense]

18. I've been on an orgy of political talk shows tonight,

and it's been very enlightening.

There are those that are whistling past the graveyard (David Brooks), there are those in outright denial (Hannity), and there are a number of older-and-wiser types on both sides who see the handwriting on the wall and it ain't good for the repukes.

The best watch, if it repeats later, was tonight's Charlie Rose. Man, those people have seen it all and they know what's going on. There was a whole lot of "they're finished" and "they're between a rock and a hard place."

I watched a little Fox, but it was unsatisfying. I wanted exploding heads, but all I got was frantic misinterpretation of the facts - and clinging to the hope that Rove wouldn't be indicted.

One interesting thing I heard - and it's all a blur, so I can't remember who said it, was that this case is going to go to trial. If Scooter had a plea bargain to make he would have made it before the indictment. Wonder how he's feeling about Big Dick right about now? Full of filial devotion, ya think??

[ray of light]

20. I have missed EVERYTHING...WAAAAAH

Work and canvassing...got in the way. PLUS there are still republicans who admit it out here!

Now THAT scares me!

[europegirl4jfk]

22. Democrats in 2006

I watched the McLaughlin group this morning on CNBC Europe and four of the five journalists there predicted that the Democrats will win the House back in 2006. Let's hope that they are right.

[ginnyinWI]

36. oh goodie--I've got Charlie Rose on the DVR

I too overdosed on punditry last night so didn't get to Charlie. Looking forward to it.

By the way, Al Franken seems to have gotten cancelled off of Sundance. :( I used to like to watch, especially for Tom Oliphant and Josh Marshall. :( :(

[ray of light]

19. Excellent rant, TayTay. Don't hold anything back now...ok?

Now tell us what you really think!

[Firespirit]

21. That is an awesome post, TayTay

Makes me feel like my screenname suggests I should, for the first time in awhile. They are going to get what's coming to them. The house of cards is on the verge of collapse and one level of it has been undermined now... just a matter of time.

Thanks for posting!

[emulatorloo]

25. OK, Tay Tay, time for your to run for office now! n/t

[k j]

34. TayTay, Love it! Thanks!

Every once in awhile there is a Fitzgerald... just when you need them.
Just as there is a John and a Teresa... just when you need them.
And a TayTay, just when you need her! ;-)


Mass, for sanity's sake, I'm staying quiet and low and away from the airwaves. For years my husband has been telling me that the time will come when all the rope the NeoConArtists have been given will hang them all from a very high place... and for years I didn't believe him. I'm still waiting for more to be strung on the line, but for now, I'll take Libby.

I so remember the outrage when first hearing about Wilson and Plame... and watching the initial story disappear like smoke. However spun or attempted to be spun, the story didn't disappear after all. The word "accountability" is in the air.

[emulatorloo]

24. NO!!!! I am excited as hell and real interested in how this will play out

Fitz has these guys in his sites. This is only the beginning as far as I can tell.

Rove is going to be neutralized asap.

They are going to be stuck with the Mehlman/Matalin "machine" and at some point they are going to figure out that that kinda BS is only going to get them into more trouble.

[Mass]

26. Ok, I take it back - you convinced me

Justto make it clear: it was not a criticism of what was achieved by Fitzgerald and his troops. They did great. smilie_remote('O8)

It is just the impression that public perception was carefully manipulated to do damage control and that the media gladly followed.

I certainly hope that Democrats will be vocal on this one and that this is only the beginning.

[whometense]

30. I think everyone understood

where you were coming from. The MSM heads were doing their best to minimize yesterday's events, but even they couldn't quite control the inconvenient facts - like *'s tanking polls and the national case of buyers' remorse spreading over the land.

[TayTay]

31. Oh Mass I absolutely understood where you were coming from

Those freaking talking heads make me want to :puke:. I watched Bill Maher last night and nearly lost it when Tony Snow came on. (I am not Maher's biggest fan. I think Maher is Maher's biggest fan. I get the feeling that he didn't really read the indictment before the show or hit the books to do any research before the show. He let Snow get away with a lot of talking point lies.)

It is infuriating to listen to Repubs and Rethug's try to minimize the damage of the Libby indictment. But that's the cards they've been dealt. Their spin is going to be awfully hard to defend, not just this weekend, but in the five months that lead up to a trial. That is an awfully long time to spin, even for these jerks.

I am not arguing with Mass or anyone else here. I see their point and feel the same frustration we all have over the last 6 years. But I don't think it's going to work anymore.

[ray of light]

39. mass...a must read! this will give you hope.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/10/29/20254/872

and the firedoglake site is worth bookmarking too!

[frogmarch]

27. I thought

Rove acted too gleeful that he wasn't going to be indicted yesterday, even though his lawyer claims he's not off the hook. His gloating nanny-nanny-boo-boo attitude was probably just bravado, but even if it wasn't, and he really feels confident he's in the clear, his gleefulness was inappropriate in light of the grave situation Bushco finds itself in.

According to David Gergen, Rove's lawyer told him (Gergen) that Fitzgerald had been ready to indict Rove. But then Rove, through his lawyer, gave Fitz information at the last minute that gave Fitz "pause." I think Rove may have expressed willingness to give up someone more important than he is. Maybe Cheney.

On the other hand, maybe Rove expressed willingness to squeal on a number of people who are lower down the ladder.

If either is true, I'd say Rove is finished, even if he himself escapes indictment. No one likes a rat.

Maybe I'm clinging too hard to Fitz saying "It's not over," but I think it's possible Rove has offered to remove the sand from Fitzgerald's eyes.

[TayTay]

29. Rove is over-praised. He really is.

He is a smear merchant. It's his job to go out and lie about an opponent and dig up dirt or even good stuff and use it as dirt. It doesn't take a genius to do this. It takes a person with no moral compass, no conscience and no love of country to do this. His 'talent' is the knowledge of what smeary issues play in what parts of the country. He is a negative thinker, his actions are designed to destroy. That is all.

Rove was put in charge of policy in this second term. Well, Social Security was policy and it is dead. It is not only dead, but the thing is radioactive. There are no Repubs who want to talk about this in their re-election bids and don't want Shrub and his boys coming into their districts and discussing it either. It's radioactive, that's how badly it was played.

Rove dreamed up the whole Terri Shiavo case. Negative thinking. He thought he could propel an issue and solidify a voting block by negatively comparing the 'wholesome' appreciation for life that the REthugs were showing in their concern for Ms. Schiavo with the Democrats and their 'culture of death.' Bzzzztttt, wrong again. This was a disaster of epic proportions and was the first real rack in the wall of the Bush Admin this year. This was a disaster and it reeks of Rove and his modus operandi in politics. You can't go negative all the time and you certainly can't govern that way.

Rove is a bastard and is not to be under-estimated. I agree with that. But he is a slimy piece of work and is a bottom-feeder as well. He can be relied on to advocate, no matter what, for Karl Rove. If he thinks he can get away with something with Fitzgerald by spinning a negative on someone else, he will do it with a smile on his lips and a song in his heart. Other Repubs and REthugs will see that and realize they can't trust this rat because he is out for himself before all else. He is toast as well.

[karynnj]

33. I agree - and I hate that some Democrats envy it

Michael Wolfe (Vanity Fair?) was on MSNBC and was saying that Rove took politics to the extreme, to what is indictable. He then said that Democrats say they need a Karl Rove. It worked, so we need to get in the dirt too.

The problem IS the Michael Wolfes and other reporters /media / commentators who looked at and applauded what Rove did that is known and not even controversial:
-smear Ann Richards (gay insinuations)
-smear Max Cleland (not patriotic)
-Smear McCain (who now wants his support????)
-smear Kerry

They made it work.

If the press, when these things were out in the open, would have called them for what they were and expressed outrage rather than admiration - maybe the party openly saying "Kerry will take your Bible away" - would be called on the carpet for stating what they know to be a lie.

[ginnyinWI]

35. that's what I've been saying about Rove too

He isn't handling the WH so well--so for that reason, and for the reason that there is a definite smell about him now, he will help * sink further and further down, the longer he stays. He's a one-trick pony--knows all about character assassination--but that's about it.

I think that whatever happens legally in this case, the political damage will be by far the worst aspect. Let the RWers spin and spin, but most of America isn't going to be fooled again, once they realize they've been duped. Losing the trust of Mr. and Mrs. Average Citizen is no joke.

On to the mid-terms!

[k j]

37. The Ship, Solid and Black

I don't know which class this puts me in re: online users, maybe the one where the poster that always talks about her cat... ;-) Anyway, a poem that fits (loosely) to where I think we are now...


"The ship, solid and black,
enters the clear blackness
of the great harbor.

Quiet and cold.
--The people waiting

are still asleep, dreaming,
and warm, far away and still stretched out in this
dream, perhaps...

How real our watch is, beside the dream
of doubt the others had! How sure it is, compared
to their troubled dream about us!
Quiet. Silence.

Silence which in breaking up at dawn
will speak differently."

--Juan Ramon Jimenez
from "Lorca & Jimenez"
translated by Robert Bly

[frogmarch]

40. Ohhhhh

How poignant! A very powerful piece, especially when read from the perspective that the ship is our country.

"Silence which in breaking up at dawn will speak differently." (Yes!)

I love the poem. It's so profound it gives me chills. Thank you for posting it.

[TayTay]

43. That is beautiful!

Thank you for posting this. It is so important sometimes to remember to see the forest as well as the individual trees. There is hope and there is reason to believe that things will get better.

I love this group. I love all the different people that seem to contribute just the right thing, at the just the right moment. This synergy is sometimes so good, it's almost scary. (And *is* quite profound.)

[k j]

44. Oh good...

you don't think I'm a complete oddball for posting a poem, LOLOL
I agree, this is a wonderful group here... a really great mix. :-)