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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:54 PM
Original message
Response to Kos slam on Dean opponents
From The Democratic Daily--see original post for links

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=1569



Facts vs. Rhetoric on the Dean Campaign

This isn’t the first time we’ve seen someone out to sell a book bend the truth a bit. Today Kos, who was on the Dean campaign’s payroll to improve Dean’s perception in the liberal blogosphere, provides an “alternate history” as he does some selective reporting with fund raising totals, and more importantly mischaracterizes those who opposed them. While primarily speaking of the DLC, I suspect Kos believes this to be true of all Dean opponents when he claims:

their attacks had to be based on rhetoric and scare tactics, rather than tangible things like “facts”. They gave birth to the “unelectable” theme and provided the intellectual framework upon which Dean’s critics built their case against him.

It is hardly worthwhile to return to all the facts which led many of us, even people like myself who initially supported Dean, to oppose his candidacy. However, such a broad claim that opposition to Dean was purely based upon rhetoric and scare tactics demands that some of the facts be recalled.

While many “Dated Dean, Married Kerry” for a variety of reasons, for me the major reason came when the Medicare issue arose. While Dick Gephardt and John Kerry had raised valid criticisms, Dean initially stonewalled on answering. I was involved with Doctors for Dean at the time, and even had the opportunity to discuss my concerns with a Dean staffer for health care issues.

During the balanced budget battles, Dean had backed the budget cuts in Medicare which Newt Gingrich had advocated which were designed to destory the Medicare Program. It was a clear mistake, and if Dean had simply said he was wrong and provided a reasonable answer to questions regarding Medicare this might have been forgiven. Instead the Dean campaign came out with a series of evasive answers, ultimately providing outright lies as to what occurred. Dean further destroyed his credibility by proceeding to lie about the votes cast by other Senators. Even when talking about his present plans he was evasive.

Considering this was all a matter of public record, this was rather foolish. While the ditto heads at Daily Kos defended Dean without regards to the facts (with some even arguing to destroy Medicare when I challenged Dean’s position), the media knew better. For those who want to look further at the facts I have attached two articles. Particularly significant is the conclusions each author reached about Dean which forshadowed the problems Dean had with the media in the final stretch. Marie Cocco of Newsday wrote:

Voters generally judge not so much by whether there’s been a change of heart, but by a candidate’s forthrightness in explaining it. And on whether the flip-flopped issue has sufficient importance.

Dean’s already flunked the first test. He’ll find out soon enough that Medicare matters. Especially to the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.

Thomas Oliphant also saw the facts he cited as a problem for Dean:

Bottom line: Gephardt and Kerry have a legitimate point, and Dean will have trouble expanding his remarkable base to the elderly and to voters of moderate means unless he does a more forthright job of facing up to his past.

There were other facts which hurt Dean and made the question of his electability real, and not based upon rhetoric and scare tactics. One key difference in positions between Kerry and Dean is that Dean proposed eliminating all the middle class tax cuts, while Kerry advocated eliminating them only for those making over $200,000 per year.

The significance of the middle class tax cuts in a general election is most profoundly demonstrated in a Democracy Corps Poll from October 23, 2003 . They found that a Democrat advocating the repeal of all Bush tax cuts lost to Bush by 5 points (44 to 49 percent). A Democrat who wanted to repeal the top rate cuts and maintain middle class tax cuts won the debate with Bush by 18 points (55 to 37 percent). This is a 23 point swing which provided a strong reason to support Kerry over Dean.

There were many other facts which made many question Dean’s suitability to be the nominee. The importance of military experience was demonstrated as the Bush campaign found it important to attack Kerry’s strength on this issue. While I personally sympathize with Dean’s actions and personally have no objection, the fact is that Dean’s evasion of the draft (along with lack of any military or foreign policy experience) would have been a major political liability post 9/11. The Republicans wouldn’t have needed to come up with the Swift Boat lies (or would they have attacked Dean with Aspen Ski Bums for Truth?).

Dean’s character was also brought into question on how he used Iraq. Undoubtedly he realized that there was ultimately only room in the race for one Northeastern liberal, and in a fair race he couldn’t compete with Kerry’s credentials for fighting unjust wars. Dean responded by distorting the meaning of Kerry’s vote on the IWR, fooling many into ignoring Kerry’s many statements opposing going to war. Ultimately publications from The Des Moines Register to Salon cast doubt on Dean’s integrity on this issue and showed how Dean and Kerry actually held very similar positions regardless of Dean’s rhetoric.

There were also many other facts which harmed the Dean campaign. Dean’s own gaffes did far more harm to him than any “scare tactics” from his opponents. For example, there were his statements on the Confederate Flag, from calling it a state’s rights issue for a Southern state to fly the flag over their capitol to his pickup truck gaffe. Dean’s record and positions on the environment and assault weapons concerned some liberal Democrats. Dean also suffered when he denied others the opportunity to review the facts with his sealing of his Vermont records.

Ultimately the voters of Iowa and New Hampshire took a close look at all the candidates. While Kos may believe that they voted based upon being swayed by scare tactics, it was the facts which decided the race in John Kerry’s favor.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent post, Ron!
Lots of good points. This is especially helpful for those of us who weren't paying all that much attention when it was happening. (Hey, I live in PA - May primary - and had my hands full with my own life at that time. Can you say "academic exercise"? But at least I picked the right answer. :-) )
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. I was as tough on Dean as anyone, but, I have ultimately concluded that he
was operating under bad advice from Joe Trippi.

I don't think that Dean would have gone as far as he did with his attacks had Trippi not been pushing it.

Left to his own instincts and his own record of governance, Dean would have been most comfortable running to the right of Kerry as he initially intended.

The Iraq war resolution and the spin the media put on it as a VOTE FOR WAR, changed the course for Dean.

He probably would have finished higher had he run the race more true to himself.

I do thank his supporters for bringing him more to the liberal side of the spectrum. We need another outspoken, tough voice. And I don't doubt the earnestness of his evolved positions now. He recognized the earnestness of his supporters and it moved him leftward.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. Great points, Dr. Ron.
In fact great insights, since I don't know enough about what happened between the Dean and Kerry camps.

I wonder, do you think Dean crossed the line in campaigning? (Some of this seems below the belt to me.)

And do you think these tactics would still be in focus if Kos wasn't so critical and biased?
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The Line
"I wonder, do you think Dean crossed the line in campaigning?"

I'm not sure what constitutes crossing the line. Dean was dishonest, but we know he wasn't the first person to ever launch a dishonest campaign attack. I never paid as much attention to a primary campaign as this, so I don't know how this ranks.

Looking back, recall it was Gore who launched the Willie Horton campaign against Dukakis. If we want to see real sleeze, look at Bush v. McCain.

If Kos wants to say he prefers Dean, that's one thing. Unfortuantely he keeps the same BS attacks, even after the campaign is over and Dean as dropped them. If he gave reasons to support Dean over other candidates based upon real positions, I might disagree but it wouldn't be a big issue. What bugs me is the insinuation that there were no real reasons to oppose Dean.

Besides, if any side used rhetoric and attacks, it was Dean's side.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Thanks.
I know a certain amount of tearing down your adversary comes with it, but I always wonder about that line.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I wish two things would happen
I wish Dr. Dean would speak out about this tempest on the internet that still divides people that should be together to fight Republicans in '06. dKos is a divisive force that is used as much to divide Dems as it is to bring about any poitive change.

I wish the Deaniacs would just get over it. These people back a candidate who lost. Big friggin deal. At one time or another, everyone backs someone who loses. Get over it. Dr. Dean has. I tink there would be even more unity on the web to back the DNC if there wasn't this poison out there. It brings back that mistaken and untimely sense of partisanship. We don't need this.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. It is
the primaries with no end in sight.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. We are not responsible for Kos. He is his own person.
Why are we being blamed for what he does? I do not understand that.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. he has a bunch of followers who spew his shit
and we respond to it. you seem to only have a problem with the response. yet say nothing about those who start the shit.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. I am trying to figure out why you are blaming us.
I really don't like it when Kos starts in on Kerry or any Democrat. It is not us, it is not our fault. You can curse at me all you want, but it does not make this fair.

We have too many battles to fight.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. who is us ?
we are talking about anyone who spews his shit. if it's not you then don't worry about it.

but there are many who regularly spew the crap he does. and we will respond to them.
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. Originally, I was a Dean supporter
But I was never a Deaniac. And it wasn't because I was 'against' any of the other candidates. It was because of the clear anti-war stance he took starting before the war started, and which he stuck with throughout his campaign. I was unnerved by his tendency to say stupid things in public forums. And statements about Medicare were definitely a problem for me, because my Mom has a lot of medical problems, and is very dependent on her Medicare. I wavered a lot as it got closer to the Iowa caucuses. I started looking for who to fall back on if Dean didn't work out. I had a feeling from the start that the Dean campaign was destined to go down in flames. Because of that, I never really committed to him as 'my candidate'. I bounced a bit between Kerry and Edwards, because I found things to like about both of them. But ultimately I went with my Senator. I was already familiar and comfortable with him and his stances on most of the issues. I had only been reluctant because I wasn't sure he could appeal to enough of the country to win. And I knew how important this election was. My original reluctance around his candidacy melted away as the candidates headed for the primary in New Hampshire. And I became a Kerry Gal.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Dean Supporters vs. Deaniacs
Yes, these were two different things.

I supported Dean early on, and only saw it as opposing Bush. I never thought in terms of opposing other Democrats for the nomination. Even when I was a Dean supporter, I felt that Kerry had beaten Dean, and the other candidates, in the debates and had no problem with the prospect of Kerry winning the nomination.

It wasn't until later in the fall that the campaign seemed to get nastier where the Deaniacs were really out bashing other Democrats.

Initially many were Dean supporters because he had the most public campaign opposing the war. Dean managed to give the feeling that to oppose Bush and the war meant supporting Howard Dean. That's why he led in the polls, but it was very weak support. I'm sure many people said they supported Dean early when they really meant they opposed Bush but hadn't really firmly committed to any one candidate. When the time came to actually vote, the same reasons to support Dean led to many voting for other candidates, especially Kerry.
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Luftmensch067 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. This is my perception
Dean supporters are different from Deaniacs. My impression is that a Deaniac is really just a Naderite reheated. To generalize, this is a political volunteer or operative who has not studied political history and has no real awareness of the larger political picture. What they want is to be involved in a Crusade. They want a religious experience rather than to be part of a unified movement to achieve progress in government.

Many are suffused with a sense of righteous anger at Authority, many are not quite grown up yet, no matter how old they are. They think the very act of rebellion is what is important, knock everything down rather than building anything up.

They mistrust complex thinking and prefer slogans and facile, dogmatic, black and white arguments. In this and many other ways, they are remarkably similar to their Republican campaign counterparts.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. For an example, see the comments at Democratic Daily
We had one Deanie (a term for Deaniacs reserved for the most obnoxious) respond to the post at Democratic Daily, and he demonstrates the typical problems with the Deanies.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. What do you consider me, Dr. Ron?
I am wondering if this gulf is just going to get larger.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. get over yourself
you post on a site that regularly bashes Democrats.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. What site?
?
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. you can't be serious
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. There are two sites I avoid now.....
I have posted twice in months. Once today because someone there irritated me. I don't go there.

I really don't know what you mean, not now.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. well, they have been bashing Dems for way longer than 2 months
and you had no problem with that. yet you seem to have a problem with us responding to attacks. perhaps you need to take it up with those who start it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. I don't know what you are talking about.
I really don't. I find it sad that the primaries are being relived here in such a dramatic way.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. funny coming from you
and all the threads you started. and this is about what KOS started NOW . somethign you have no problem with;. yet you come crying on here because we respond to his shit.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. You guys are making fun of Dean supporters.
And you are having threads about the primaries. I was asked not to do that, and I have not done it except to respond.

I had a note to not relive the primaries. It is portraying the Dean campaign in an unfair way. Ron's blog calls him dishonest, and it is pretty bad.

Oh,well, never mind.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Kos is making fun of Kerry supporters
we are having threads about what KOS IS DOING NOW . you seem to have no problem iwth his bashing Kerry supporters yet have a problem with us responding.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Well, then you need to read Ron's posts...
about Dean's dishonesty during the campaign. I resent that. That is about Dean and us and not Kos. Fair is fair.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. Fair? HAHAHHAHAHAHHAH
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

SO obvious....
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. if have read Ron's posts, and i read the shit Kos spews also
and i can clearly see it's in reponse to Kos' shit. and Kos is the fucker who uses Dean to trash Kerry. so the response will of course include comments on all of that.

yet you only have problems with anyone criticizing Dean. the party is only hurt when someone differs from Dean. you have no problem with all the endless attacks against Kerry and other Dems. including during the campaign.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #44
57. Having read Dr. Ron's post, I don't understand your problem.
He is saying that he was disturbed as a "doctor for Dean", that Dean did distort his position on medicare. Dean's positions are a matter of public record here. His 2003/2004 comments ignored his previous positions - as Kerry and Gephardt claimed. Dr. Ron talks about how, as a doctor, this disturbed him. This meets my definition of dishonest.

I think he was deceptive, but not dishonest, on how was against the war. His ads in the early primaries did imply that he was more anti-war than Kerry. Their positions were really not different in 2002 - 2003, but Kerry had to vote. However, it was Kerry's job to explain his vote and to counter the media's view of the IWR as approving war, which he did. It would be ridiculous to ask Dean to help get to the truth on this. That he took advantage of it is standard politics.

Just as Kerry had to live with his vote- Dean had to live with his previous stands on medicare. Neither, long term could get away with saying their stands weren't what they were. Dean did have the ability to explain why he took the position he did, but he couldn't deny it and complain about others bringing it up.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. No, Ron's post is calling out Kos who persists in lying about Kerry
Why don't you learn basic reading comphrenshion?

More basic reading comprehension for you: this is the JOHN KERRY SUPPORTERS FORUM, not the piss and moan disgruntled Deanie forum. If you could bother to read, you'd know that neither Ron nor any of us attacked Dean personally. He explained why he chose to support Kerry over Dean and proved false Kos's persistent allegations. But then, Kos was bought out by Dean to be his propaganda piece, so we shouldn't exactly expect objectivity, should we? What about you, mad? You sure are a zealous Deanwarrior. Are you on the payroll too?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
63. Not fair to MF. She is as earnest about supporting Dean as we are Kerry.
She may have read Doc's post to mean ALL Dean supporters, but some of us have done that as well reKerry supporters.

She really does try now to see that there are both sides to the story and also recognizes that many of the most virulent attackers of both Kerry AND Dean are operatives hoping to press the divide in the Dem party.

Please try to understand her side as well. When Dean was under attack, Kos must have felt like a lifeboat to Dean's supporters - especially the earnest ones.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
75. I also think this is a bit unfair to MadFloridian
MadFloridian at least supports electing Democrats, whereas many other people say "It's my candidate or the highway". I would, at least, respect MadFloridian's stand on things, even if I don't agree.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. MadFloridian has a right to support Dean and electing Democrats
Where she is wrong is in posting here, at least twice, accusations that my facts are untrue without the slightest bit of evidence to the contrary. She clearly assumes any criticism of Dean is wrong without regard for the facts (which is basically what I was initially criticizing Kos for saying).

She is also wrong in the assertion that we totally cannot discuss matters related to the 2004 election if they should reveal anything unfavorable to Dean, and that we therefore cannot defend Kerry and other Dean opponents from Kos's slams.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
60. Dishonesty
"It is portraying the Dean campaign in an unfair way. Ron's blog calls him dishonest, and it is pretty bad."

My account is an accurate, and not unfair portrayal of the Dean campaign.

It seems that any untrue garbage about Kerry is fair game, but for some reason we must never say anything bad about Dean.

The fact of the matter is that, when the Medicare issue came up, he lied. In addition to the account here, I linked to additional documentation in the origtinal blog post.

This is not Dean bashing for the sake of bashing Dean, but a response to a book and blog post from Kos that is quite untrue. The same type of untrue claims are frequently seen on line, making a response fair game.

Evidence of Dean's dishonesty in the campaign is relevant as Kos makes the claim that Dean was Mr. Clean and there was no legitimate grounds to criticize him. It is also relevant as Dean supporters often claim his campaign was derailed by the media. The fact of the matter is that, while the media coverage of Dean did change, it was a consequence of Dean's dishonest statements on Medicare and Kerry's position on Iraq being exposed. It is dangerous to run as a straight talker and then be exposed as just another politician. This sort of thing guarantees that the media will climb over you for every misstatement made once exposed. (I also expect McCain to run into this problem if he runs in 2008).
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. You present about half of the truth and you call it the whole truth.
That is just as dangerous as a lie. It does harm, and it hurts the country. Dean has addressed the issues you bring up many times quite honestly.

Do you think we are stupid, Ron? Most of us caught on at once to what Kos was doing. He is trying to sell his book. Believe it or not, most of us "Deaniacs" are pretty intelligent, and not worshipful, just very practical about things.

And it does appear to be Dean bashing wrapped up in Kos bashing.


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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. There is no half truth here
Maybe you are showing your true colors when you falsely say this is a half truth and suggest I am lying.

I have presented an honest account and documented my case in the original post. I guess that to you any criticism of Dean must be a lie.

Of course I know Kos is trying to sell a book--I note that in my comment. Do you bother to actually read what you are attacking? The fact that Kos is trying to sell a book does not excuse the continued spreading of untrue information. The same untrue information is spread beyond the context of Kos's attempts to sell a book.

You have a warped view of what constitutes "Dean bashing." By your standards any criticism of Dean, regardless of validity, is bashing, while you appear to see nothing wrong with dishonest attacks on Kerry implicit in Kos's account of the primary campaign.

Frankly, I find your attempts to shout down any attempts to bring an honest account to the campagin as rather disgusting. I just don't buy your view that we cannot discuss the 2004 primary campaign because it might include some facts uncomplimentary to Dean and hurt the feelings of some of his supporters.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. Oh, fucking please
Get the fuck out of here with your duplicity and feigned innocence. You are not a Kerry supporter, and you know full fucking well what forum she is referring to. If your memory is truly that poor, let me... *cough cough*PFC*cough cough* spell it out for you. It is a forum that has bashed Democrats, and Senator Kerry in particular, for at least a year. And yet you posted there. Kos and his mindless dittoheads are doing everything they can to refight the primaries and make John Kerry into an archvillain, culminating in Kos's new book rewriting the 2004 primaries and recasting Dean and Kerry into the roles of Christ and Judas (I'm sure you can guess who is who). You are, despite your hysterical claim to fight for party "unity", okay with all of this. Yet the minute one of us points out the false, divisive dreck spewing from Kos or other disgruntled ex-Deaniacs, you declare yourself Keeper of Democratic Unity and bitch at us. Not gonna fly. Pathetic.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I have one post there today.
I posted one months ago when one of our DFA leaders had an honor. I am not really very welcome there now.

There is no excuse for the hatred toward me. I have NOT been that way toward Kerry. But since no one has noticed....
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. there is no excuse for your hypocrisy
and how you think we should not respond to KOS and others spewing their shit.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. Then why have you appointed yourself the Moderator of this forum?
Apparently, Kos is above criticism to you, as is Dean. You never raise a voice to counter unfair slams against Kerry or any other Dem save Dean, so just DON'T expect any of us to buy into your innocent "oh, this is bad for the party" hand-wringing bullshit. Your agenda is obvious from five miles away, and the only thing comical about any of this is that you actually think you can fool anyone into thinking otherwise.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. Yes, I have done that.
But you never have noticed. Sorry you haven't.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Because it has never happened, and you know it
Your dishonesty is breathtaking.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #51
76. Yes, you have
I've noticed, and been pleased by (with your record as a Dean supporter) your support of Kerry in threads bashing him. I'm sorry others haven't taken notice.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. I have never seen her in any bashing threads
But you and others here have, so I believe you. My apologies to MF for doubting you.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Right there it is
"I had only been reluctant because I wasn't sure he could appeal to enough of the country to win. And I knew how important this election was. My original reluctance around his candidacy melted away as the candidates headed for the primary in New Hampshire. And I became a Kerry Gal."

And so did the rest of the country. He played in Iowa and the rest of the country took a big sigh of relief and said well okay then, let's go. That's the main trouble I think Kerry had throughout the primary and there's still too many rural Dems who doubt his ability to connect. Illusion is a funny thing. Even most Dems say Bush connects to that union working man voter, yet Kerry got that vote. So that's bullshit too.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Check this out: All you need to say is
Kerry got the vote, and I'm with you:

The White Elephant in the Room
By Bob Wing
AlterNet.org

Saturday 04 December 2004

The 2004 presidential election demonstrated that racial politics are going to be the turning point in upcoming elections.

The 2004 presidential contest was a warning shot across the bow of all progressives. While the president and the Republican pundits vastly overstate their "mandate," progressives need to become clear on the motion of racial politics if we are to get ourselves in shape for the coming battles.

Many spin doctors would have us believe that the story of the 2004 election turns on evangelicals and moral values, the better to advance their rightwing agenda in both the Democratic and Republican parties, not to speak of the halls of power.

But an examination of the exit polls shows something very different (though not at all new): the centrality of race in U.S. politics. The bad news is that the Republicans, trumpeting their program of aggressive war and racism, swung the election by increasing their share of the white vote to 58 percent. This represents a four-point gain over 2000; a 12-point gain over 1996 and a grim18-point gain over 1992.

The good news is that people of color - African Americans, Latinos, Native peoples, Asian Americans and Arab Americans - surged to the polls in unprecedented numbers and voted overwhelmingly in opposition to the Bush agenda despite an unprecedented Republican attempt to intimidate them. People of color constituted about 35 percent of new voters and, despite their dazzling diversity, showed uncommon political unity.

A key lesson of this election is that progressives and Democrats need to stop chasing the Republicans to the right and instead adopt a clear vision that mobilizes our main social constituencies and wins new allies. Only a long term strategy that draws deeply and skillfully from the high moral ground of peace, jobs and equality and refuses to cede the South and Southwest to the right can enable us to staunch the country's longstanding movement to the right. Otherwise what Lani Guinier calls the "tyranny of the (white) majority" will continue to lead us into authoritarianism and empire.

The bitter truth is that the election marks a substantial and dangerous victory for the rightwing forces in this country. Despite a presidency marked by numerous impeachable offenses; despite daily exposure by the press over many months of the administration's lying and incompetence; despite both a disastrous war and an unprecedented loss of jobs; despite an impressive effort by the Democrats, unions and allied groups to mobilize and protect the vote; despite a massive voter turnout led by African American voters; despite the fact that people of color constituted 23 percent of all voters as opposed to 19 percent in the last election, the president turned a 500,000 vote loss in 2000 into a 3.5 million vote victory and the Republicans increased their majorities in both the House and the Senate.

Progressives have much to be proud of in our tremendous effort and substantial impact in the 2004 presidential election. But we must also face the fact our loss was not the result simply of the Republicans having more money or of a low voter turnout. The Republicans flat out organized us and methodically found white voters receptive to their racist program of "permanent war on terrorism at home and abroad."

The Myth of the Evangelicals

There has been much talk by the punditry about how the evangelicals were the key to the Republican victory. They counsel the Democrats to move to the right to remain politically competitive. There was indeed a tremendous mobilization of Christian religious conservatives (and National Rifle Association members) to work the campaign for the Republicans. They were the critical ground troops for the Republicans but they were not the critical voters.

Alan Abramowitz points out, "Between 2000 and 2004, President Bush's largest gains occurred among less religious voters, not among more religious voters." Among those who attend church weekly or more, his gain was only one point. But among those attending services a few times a month he gained 4 points. From those attending a few times a year, he increased his share by 3 points and from those who never attend services he racked up a 4-point gain.

The emphasis on the evangelical vote is a smokescreen motivated by the attempt by Republicans (and conservative Democrats) to move the country rightwards. Meanwhile, most pundits, left and right, refuse to squarely face the white elephant in the room: race.

The Republican victory turned almost exclusively on increasing its share of the white vote. In 2000 Bush won the white vote by 12 points, 54-42; in 2004 he increased this to a 17-point margin, 58-41. That increase translates into about a 4 million vote gain for Bush, the same number by which Bush turned his 500,000 vote loss in 2000 into a 3.5 million vote victory this time around.

This increase came mainly from white women. Bush carried white men by 24 points in 2000 (60-36) and increased that margin by only one point in 2004 (62-37). But he increased his margin of victory among white women from only 1 point in 2000 (49-48) to 11 points in 2004 (55-44). This accounts for a 4 million plus vote swing for Bush. (Women of color favored Kerry by 75-24.)

Another overlooked exit poll result is that Kerry actually increased the Democrats' share of the vote among rural and small town voters and held steady among suburbanites. However, his share of the vote in cities fell considerably. In cities of 500,000 or more Kerry won 60 percent of the vote, compared to 71 percent for Gore. Bush increased his big city vote by 13 points, from 26 percent in 2000 to 39 percent in 2004. We are apparently looking at a significant rightward motion among white women in big cities, a real blow to progressive strategy.


What Happened with the Latino Vote?

The other issue that has disguised the centrality of race in this campaign has been the National Exit Poll (NEP) survey of the Latino vote. The poll concluded that Latinos voted for Kerry by 53-44, a steep decline from Gore's 62-35 victory among Latinos in 2000. But the NEP's results are self-contradictory. Larger Latino exit polls show a tremendous Latino turnout that went for Kerry by as much as 68 percent.

Since the NEP polls only 13,000 voters, the size of the sample for Latinos was very small and therefore probably not very accurate. Latinos make up eight percent of the electorate, and their geographic location (more urban) and income/education (lower) are quite different from the majority white population that shapes the polling sample.

In addition, the NEP does not include the numerous Latino nationalities in appropriate proportions. This is important because these nationalities differ politically. For example Cubans tend to vote much more Republican than all other Latino groups, while Puerto Ricans tend to vote more Democratic.

More importantly the NEP's conclusion about the national Latino vote is not compatible with its own state-by-state polling results. For example, the NEP says that Bush won a mind-bending 64 percent of Latino votes in the South, the region with the most Latino voters (35 percent of the national total). But it simultaneously reported that Bush won 56 percent of Latino votes in Florida, the state where Cuban Republicans make up most of the Latino vote and 59 percent of the Latino vote in Texas. Something is clearly wrong when it is reported that the two states where Latinos are most likely to vote Republican voted less Republican than the South as a whole.

Indeed it is statistically impossible for both the NEP's results for individual states in the South and its conclusion that 64 percent of all Latinos in the South voted for Bush to be correct.

The William C. Velásquez Institute, as it has for many elections, performed a much larger exit poll of Latinos. The Institute polled 1,179 Latino respondents in 46 precincts across 11 states, and took into account the unique demographic characteristics of Latinos. Its survey concluded that Kerry won the Latino vote by 68-31, a strong showing in the face of unprecedented efforts by Republican operatives and Catholic priests to sway Latinos the other way.

It also found that 7.6 million Latinos voted, a record number that represents an increase of an impressive 1.6 million (27 percent) over 2000. This turnout was even more remarkable considering the widespread attempts by Republicans to intimidate Latino voters and the chronic shortages of Spanish language ballots.

Antonio Gonzalez, president of the Velásquez Institute, concludes, "President Bush tried unsuccessfully to increase his support among Latinos. The Democrats' message appears to have resonated with Latinos."

No Black Breakthrough

The Republican spin-meisters, as well as some "centrist" Democrats, are even claiming a Republican breakthrough among African American voters based on appealing to conservative Christian values. However, veteran political consultants Cornell Belcher and Donna Brazile counter: "Those who trumpet inroads by Bush into the African American vote ignore history and show a strong prejudice against basic arithmetic."

The NEP concluded that Kerry won the black vote by an overwhelming 88-11 percent. Although this is two points fewer than Gore won in 2000, those two points are well within the margin of error of the poll. Even if correct, the results indicate that Bush received a lower percentage of the black vote than Nixon, Ford, Dole or Ronald Reagan in 1980.

This outcome is even more notable when one considers that, according to a Nov. 17 public memo by Belcher and Brazile, fully 60 percent of African Americans in the key battleground states, where the Republicans messaged heavily against abortion and gay marriage, consider themselves "born again Christians."

Their polling also indicates that, "The more likely African Americans are to be frequent church goers, the more likely they are to identify themselves as a strong Democrat." Clearly when pundits argue that the Republicans won by appealing to "moral values" or "evangelicals," they should really qualify their statements racially.

Perhaps most importantly, Belcher and Brazile point out that more than three million new black voters thronged to the polls in 2004, accounting for more than 20 percent of the total voter increase. They also erased the traditional 6-10 point voter participation gap between whites and blacks and increased their percentage of all voters from 10 percent in 2000 to almost 12 percent this year.

Black voters defeated the unprecedented Republican voter intimidation and suppression effort in the run-up to the election. Belcher and Brazile conclude that, "The real story is the reawakening of civic participation by African Americans in 2004."

Asian American Trends

Asian Americans also surged to the polls in historic numbers and, in all their great internal diversity, voted overwhelmingly Democratic.

The political trajectory of Asian voters has been striking. Like most immigrant groups, most Asians have historically registered and voted Democratic. However, as their incomes rose and the percentage of Asian voters who had fled Asian socialist countries climbed as a result of the 1965 immigration reform act, many became "Reagan Democrats" in the 1980s. By the 1990s a higher percentage of Asians were registered as independents than any other racial/ethnic group.

Asians were not included in national exit polls until 1992. In that election, won by Clinton, their Republican and independent bent showed through, with Bush Sr. receiving 55 percent of the Asian vote, Perot 15 percent and Clinton only 31 percent. However, since 1992 Asians have turned strongly toward the Democrats. Clinton won 43 percent in 1996, Gore won 54 percent and Kerry at least 58 percent. This trend is probably connected to the hard right turn of the GOP in the 1990s, especially its fierce attacks on immigrants.

The NEP sample of Asian American voters was tiny, as Asians represent only 2-3 percent of all voters. By contrast, the Asian American Legal Defense and Education Fund conducted a multilingual, non-partisan poll of 11,000 Asian voters in eight states. Mindful of the diversity among Asians, it surveyed them in 23 Asian languages and dialects as they left 82 polling places in 20 cities in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Virginia, Michigan and Illinois.

AALDEF executive director Margaret Fung said: "The record turnout of Asian American voters demonstrated our community's extraordinary interest in the electoral process this year." A tremendous 38 percent of Asian voters reported that they were first time voters despite what AALDEF called "an array of barriers that prevented them from exercising their right to vote."

The poll found that Asian Americans favored John Kerry over George Bush by 74-24 percent. First timers voted for Kerry by 78-20. A Los Angeles Times poll of 3,357 California voters found that 64 percent of Asian Americans voted for Kerry and 34 percent for Bush.

Native People Turn Out in Force

The National Congress of American Indians spearheaded Native Vote 2004, a nationwide voter registration and turnout effort. In a press release dated Nov. 3, NCAI President Tex Hall reported, "Native voters turned out to the election polls in greater numbers for this election day than any other in history." The release documented voter turnout successes across Indian country, including a doubling of Native voters in Minnesota. This show of political force was especially impressive considering widespread reports of Native voter intimidation by Republicans.

Although no exit polls on Native peoples are available, the county-by-county map of the 2004 vote indicates that the Native vote was largely Democratic. In addition, the NEP results by race shows the "Other" vote (which includes but is not limited to Native voters) as going for Kerry by 57-43. A Democratic Native vote would be in line with historical trends and pre-election polling.

The NCAI states that "The 2004 election will be the first time Native votes will be quantified in a way to benchmark the population for future elections" and that "rising political clout will only grow going forward."

Arab Turnaround

The only available analysis of Arab American voters indicates a major political about face by this group. According to a Zogby International poll, George Bush carried the Arab vote by 46-38 in 2000, with a strong 13 percent choosing Ralph Nader. The final Zogby poll for 2004 found Kerry winning by a landslide 63-28-3.

Arab voters contributed to Kerry's slim victories in Michigan, where they represent 5 percent of voters, and Pennsylvania, where they constitute 1.5 percent of the electorate. The Zogby poll indicates that Bush carried Arab Orthodox voters by one point, Arab Catholics favored Kerry 55-34-5 and Arab Muslims voted overwhelmingly for Kerry, 83-6-4. Both immigrant and U.S. born Arab voters went strongly for Kerry.


There are no figures available on Arab American voter turnout but, according to the Arab American Institute, there was an unprecedented Arab Get Out the Vote effort spearheaded by Yalla Vote. The Institute reports that Arabs organized GOTV efforts in 11 states that directly contacted at least 300,000 Arab American voters.

The Bush administration has rudely informed Arab Americans that they, like other immigrant groups from the Global South before them, are not just part of the "melting pot." They are also a group that is singled out by the government, the media and much of the public for racist stereotyping and harsh treatment.

As they have been increasingly treated like a racially oppressed group, Arab Americans have responded by voting like other people of color.

Taken together, people of color represented 23 percent of the total vote, but they accounted for about 35 percent of Kerry's tally. Their sense of political urgency was demonstrated by the fact that they represented about 35 percent of first time voters in this election. They are, unquestionably, the main base of the Democratic Party and the most avid anti-Bush constituencies.

White people and people of color are tremendously diverse groups and neither vote uniformly, but they are clearly trending in opposite political directions. How can we staunch the one and encourage the other?

Looking Backward, Looking Forward

The political map of Election 2004 has a depressing but telling resemblance to the pre-Civil War map of free versus slave states and territories. And, although blacks and other people of color now have the right to vote, the outcome of the electoral college vote in the South shows that the 55 percent of black voters who still reside there have as little impact on the presidential race today as they did when they had no right to vote at all.

The same disenfranchisement afflicts Latinos in the Southwest and Native voters in the heartland. Quiet as its kept, the racist remnants of slavery and the Monroe Doctrine are alive and well in the political life, institutions and consciousness of Americans of all colors and classes up to today.

Racism - at home and abroad - is a central element of the Republican "moral values" and strategy. And racism is conciliated if not actively promoted by the Democratic focus on winning more white voters by moving to the right while taking voters of color virtually for granted.

The Democratic refusal to mount a fight for electoral reform and for the Southern vote leaves all its residents to the tender mercies of racist white fundamentalists, oil magnates, sugar barons and militarists. And it disarms progressives' ability to invoke the political and moral weight of the fight for racial and economic justice that still has deep Southern roots. And so it also is with urban racism and the burgeoning issue of immigrant rights concentrated (though by no means exclusively) in the Southwest.

It is about time for progressives, including those in the Democratic Party, to show the same basic common sense that the right has demonstrated. We should prioritize the issues and organization of our most powerful social bases as the foundation upon which to extend our influence to the population at large. It is time to stop chasing the Republicans - and the money - to the right. It is time to develop and fight for a coherent progressive political vision and set of policies that appeal to the positive sentiments of all people, and to fight for this vision over the long haul.

The fight for social and economic progress now, as in the past, cannot be won without challenging the racist, militarist right in its historic Southern heartland and its deep Southwestern echoes. We must have the confidence that skillfully doing so will win increased support from whites as well as people of color.

This is not just rhetoric. The future of our country and the well-being of the world depend on us. We cannot stop the right's incessant drive to dominate the world's resources and to steamroll all opposition to that program unless we pose a clear alternative. A powerful vision of peace, jobs and justice is our only chance to mobilize the democratic sentiments and courage of all the people of our country.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/120504L.shtml



Factor in all the machine "problems" and voters intimidated, and, IMO, there is a big ? attached to the election results.

As Bush's percentage of African American votes suspiciously jumped to 16% in Ohio, 5% more than the national average, I question even his jump among white voters. And there clearly is suspicion around the Latino vote.


These are important to know going forward. Check out these recent survey results:



Results of 2005 National Latino Survey: Republicans Rapidly Losing Ground Among Hispanic Voters

1/5/2006 4:33:00 PM

To: National Desk, Political Reporter

Contact: Martha Lozada of The Latino Coalition, 202-546-0008; Web: http://www.TheLatinoCoalition.com

WASHINGTON, Jan. 5 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Latino Coalition today released the results of the 2005 National Latino Survey during a press conference in Washington, D.C. Survey top- line results and power-point presentation are available at http://www.TheLatinoCoalition.com .

"This survey has become the most reliable and accurate study on Hispanic political and consumer behavior in the U.S. The 2004 National Latino Survey was dead-on accurate in predicting the Latino vote in the 2004 elections," said TLC President Robert Deposada. "We predicted the nine-point spread between Senator Kerry and President Bush, while all other surveys predicted a Kerry win of over 30 points. The results of this year's survey offer similar surprising results and highlight the future trends of Latino adults and Latino voters in the U.S. However, contrary to past years these trends spell trouble for the Republican Party."


Snip...

"Creating more jobs and improving the economy"

Republicans in Congress (2005): 19 percent

Democrats in Congress (2005): 50 percent

President Bush (2004): 34 percent

John Kerry (2004): 54 percent

--

"Improving Education"

Republicans in Congress (2005): 20 percent

Democrats in Congress (2005): 50 percent

President Bush (2004): 35 percent

John Kerry (2004): 52 percent

--

"Providing more affordable health care"

Republicans in Congress (2005): 15 percent

Democrats in Congress (2005): 55 percent

President Bush (2004): 30 percent

John Kerry (2004): 52 percent

--

"Representing your views on immigration"

Republicans in Congress (2005): 17 percent

Democrats in Congress (2005): 46 percent

President Bush (2004): 35 percent

John Kerry (2004): 43 percent

--

"Keeping America safe and fighting terrorism"

Republicans in Congress (2005): 30 percent

Democrats in Congress (2005): 30 percent

President Bush (2004): 50 percent

John Kerry (2004): 36 percent

--

"Being in touch with the Hispanic community"

Republicans in Congress (2005): 16 percent

Democrats in Congress (2005): 57 percent

President Bush (2004): 37 percent

John Kerry (2004): 37 percent


http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=58909



What's the deal with this terrorism crap? Is it because Bush is president? Well let see how it plays out.
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. In the latino community, machisimo is very important...
So therefore, the diplomatic ways of JK and dems is seen as wimpy and the bully is seen as macho.

What shocks me is the "seen to id with hispanics" that both kerry and bush scored low. Kerry is FLUENT in that language and married to a woman who lived through Apartheid! Is it the media portraying him as an elitist that did this? (Though perhaps his aristocratic bearing does it on it's own.)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. Eleanor Holmes Norton: In my lifetime...
NORTON: Let me tell you where Democrats really stand. In my lifetime, no Democrat has wrapped up the Democratic nomination in a shorter time with a larger gathering and consensus of Democrats than John Kerry. I think he speaks for all of us.

Snip...

NORTON: I want to elect John Kerry because I know he will get the troops out a lot of faster than this president.



http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0405/28/cf.00.html
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jenndar Donating Member (911 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. OMG, it's so true!!
I wish people would stop "forgetting" that much about JK. I'm about ready to get it tattooed on my forehead.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-08-06 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. I respect Kerry a lot. I try to take up for him here.
To paraphrase, I like Kerry....but it is his .......can you finish the sentence? How would like to hear that all the time?

Why do you guys do this?

We are not Kos, Kos is not us. Many of us try to be supportive when Kerry is bashed here.

We have so much to deal with. When you get mad at Kos, post about it there.

We have our party's future at stake.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-08-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Kos is posted here all the fucking time
as long as the putrid fucker keeps spewing his shit, people will respond. pretty fucking amazing you have the nerve to come on and tell us we should not respond to the putrid fucker and accuse us of hurting the party. yet you say nothing when the putrid fucker spews all the shit against Kerry AND Kerry supporters for the past few years.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. That is not our fault...that is my point.
It is not the fault of Howard Dean or of any of us. Kos loves to get people's goat, can't you see that?

I do say things about it. I have said things. You may just not know it.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. what the fuck ?
why don't you complain about Kos starting this shit rather than complaining about those who take issue with what the fucker himself starts.

i can't believe you expect us to not respond to the stupid fucker after all the threads you start about people offending you for being critical of Dean in any way.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
49. Many of us?
You're never one of them. Strange...

Also, posting about Kos at DU is threatening the party's future? That's a good one. :rofl:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
31. This is sad to do this.
.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. it is sad you can't see your hypocrisy
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Not hypocrisy. Concern.
Concern at the hatred that still goes back to the primaries. I am not sure how our party will survive that.

If no one has noticed I have tried to supportive of Kerry, then maybe I don't need to bother.

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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. get over yourself
yeah, because you claim to not bash Kerry we should let Kos and others get away with their shit. what a fucking Joke.

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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #37
52. "Concern about the hatred that goes back to the primaries"
Well then, why don't you tell Kos to get the fuck over the primaries and stop acting like a paid Dean for America shill and treating John Kerry like an opponent?

P.S. - no one has noticed that you support John Kerry because you DON'T.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #37
54. Well, I've noticed.
I'm sorry I missed this thread. And now I have to get ready for work so I can't spend time finding links.

To other Kerrycrats here: madfloridian actually has been supportive of Kerry, at least at some times in some places. I don't read every post of every user here, so I have no friggin' clue whether my experience is representative. I can only say that madflo is at least occasionally an ally, and I wish you all would settle down and attempt a truce.

However, that said:

Dr Ron's OP illuminates some points that continually come up in various forums that are used to bash Kerry. Ron likes Dean somewhat less than I do, and that is evident in his posts, but there is still very useful and well-cited info in his posts, which is why I thank him for them.

If it wasn't for the fucking bullshit continually spewed against Kerry by certain groups and individuals, there would be no need or interest by folks like me to see "the other side of the story."

I didn't think Ron's post was all that bad about Dean - it was about the failure of certain people to be bothered to let the facts change their outlook. I know you are familiar with that phenomenon. I didn't think you were part of it. (Evidently some folks here disagree. I am sorry. I don't know their experiences that make them feel that way.)

I don't understand exactly why you had a problem with this post. I don't think you are (currently, anyway) one of the people Ron was talking about. And I don't think you should be defending people who don't care to let the facts intrude on their little make-believe world. I'm sorry if you don't like the terms used, but hey, we all get called names at times. It's unfortunate that frequently people take offense at a reference that is just a rhetorical shortcut with no intent to be an insult.

And since when was "Deaniac" a bad name anyway, until it came to represent those who are too fanatical to let facts affect their worldview?

Okay, I'm done. I don't know if this post was helpful, but I tried.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Good points. But I've noticed
that the support is usually linked to supporting Dean or quelling criticism of Dean (and like you, MH1, I haven't read every post).

Problem I have is this the JK forum. This poster didn't come here to say the Kerry bashing must stop. This is just another blatant attempt to quell criticism of Dean supporters who viciously attack Kerry, and also criticism of Dean.

I had issues with Dean that's why I supported Kerry, but I like Dean. Out there on the rest of this board, I defend Dean as DNC chair because I think he's doing a great job. If people are going to rehash the primaries as a way to viciously attack Kerry, then the discussion is bound to bring out the issues people had during the primaries.

So if this poster is genuine, call for Kerry bashing to stop, but why take issue with a post criticizing Kerry bashers? Why even take issue with a post that tries to offer an honest assessment of what happened? In fact, if the poster takes issue with the OP assessment of what happened during the primaries, then discuss that and offer an equally reasoned assessment to counter it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. Okay, this is just plain wrong and must be retracted.
My issues with Dean had nothing to do with supporting Kerry. Wanting Kerry goes much deeper than that.

I had to get it off my chest.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. They can't handle the facts
"In fact, if the poster takes issue with the OP assessment of what happened during the primaries, then discuss that and offer an equally reasoned assessment to counter it."

True. If the poster objects she could argue the facts. Instead she just posted that I'm spreading half truths and suggested they were lies.

Untrue items on Kerry appear all over the blogs, but provide information critical of Dean and that's not allowed. They don't care about the facts--they assume that anything critical of Dean is a lie, which gets back to my initial criticism of Kos's post and book.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Of course if they want facts, this could go on a lot longer
I cited limited information critical of Dean. I only thought an "existence proof" was necessary to show that there are some facts critical of Dean and his positions to refute the claim that there was not real basis for criticism of Dean. If necessary I could cite additional data, but I doubt the Dean supporter intruding here has the information to go up against me in an argument on the facts, and I think I provided enough for others to make my case.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. I don't know...
An honest discussion after the election never took place, not that there is a time frame for that. But in any presidential election cycle, the next election draws close and I think the focus should be on winning back the Congress. When is a good time to discuss what went wrong on the campaign trail: immediately after the presidential election or after the congressional elections when the campaigns will again kick into gear?
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. I'm not sure these issues determine the timing here
The Dean campaign is a rather unusual situation with a "revisionist history" being spread to this degree by the supporters of someone who lost in the primaries.

As it was a primary campaign, a lot less is known by those not paying close attention. Regardless of what one's take is on it, many people are aware of the Swift Boat Liars (and the controversy over whether Kerry responded quickly enough), the flip flop charges, the IWR vote, Bush's misuse of terror alerts, the last minute release of the bin Laden statement, Kerry killing Bush in the debates, the differences in tone between the Democratic and Republican conventions, the unexpectedly high GOP turn out from the exburbs, questions of voter suppression, etc. These factors have been discussed, and will continue to be discussed whenever the 2004 race is considered.

However, much less is known about the primaries. People were aware of the Medicare issue, but by now I bet most have forgotten it, or do not understand the specifics. I bet most people have forgotten about issues such as Dean's tax proposals, his Vietnam era activities, or his sealing of the Vermont records. For the most part these primarily apply to 2004 and would only be an issue if Dean actually ran again, but if Kos is going to give his revisionist review of the campaign, these factors should be discussed at the time.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Ok, Ron, why not just go ahead and put it all out there.
Instead of just trying to rattle chains. You have a blog, and you can use it for that.

Be sure you check out the latest on the VT records, be sure to correct your Medicare facts to bring them up to date, and yes, we all knew where he was during the Vietnam war. So were half the guys I knew in college, because they did not want to be forced to go there.

If you want to have a campaign against Dean because of what Kos said, you have your platform to use, your blog.. I will pass the word so we can get out all our files we put away.

And we can all hurt all over again because Kos said something to sell his book. Trust me, it won't be pretty.

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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Are you totally off the wall?
You imply that my facts are not correct (or not up to date) but do you have a single shred of evidence to back up your claims? You don't even make any sense--the facts on Dean's previous activities related to Medicare, his lies on the subject during the 2004 campaign, and his advocacy of the same policies (along with his attempts to hide his position on this unless probed) occured and are part of history. We have the right to discuss these issues, and you are totally out of line in trying to suppress such discussion.

Did you read what I said about Dean and Vietnam--or again are you just attacking without reading? it sure looks like it? I made a point of saying I had no personal objection to Dean's activities. This doesn't change the fact that his evasion of the draft would have been a tremendous political liability and something to consider in a campaign post 9/11.

Also drop your BS claims that I'm waging a campaign against Dean. It has been made clear to you over and over that this is not a campaign against Dean himself. We've made the distinction between Dean and his fanatic supporters very clear. Since this blog post I have had one other blog post related to Dean himself (as opposed to his supporters) which if viewed in the mode of pro versus anti Dean would be a pro-Dean post. The point is to look at specifics, not to look at the entire world in terms of whether somelthing is pro or anti Dean. If I disagree with Dean, such as on Medicare, I'll say it. I'll also post in favor of Dean when I agree with him. I certainly would not tell other people what they may or may not discuss as you are doing.

Finally, we have every right to discuss the specificis of the 2004 campaign, regardless of whether we are speaking of Dean's supporters or Dean himself. If Kos can write a book (and if Kos and others post endlessly on related subjects) we can certainly discuss what occured with the actual facts. This isn't just something being said once to sell a book. This is something in a book, and something which is being said elsewhere.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. and rate it on Amazon - one star sounds right
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Do I review the book?
Tough decision as that means to review the book (as opposed to selections Kos posts on his site) means I'd have to buy a copy.

When Inside the Bubble came out they were kind enough to send me a review copy, allowing me to write a fair, but generally unfavorable, review for Democratic Daily. I doubt Kos will send me a review copy of his book. Whether I buy it will probably depend on whether the book is mentioned much in the media, or is something only noted in the blogosphere.

Hopefully Kos will post more selections on his site, giving me the opportunity to comment. (Of course I go to the site very intermittently so I may or may not catch such selections).
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. There is a lot of truth there.
We keep searching for the term that best defines Democrats who are negative in tone, love to bash Dems more than they love to support them and spread a feeling of doom around. Deaniacs as a term to describe this is not true because it doesn't apply to people who genuinely cared about Dr. Dean and his issues in '03-'04 and because it is no longer applicable. (Dr. Dean has moved on.) I mean come on, I am not the only pure person in the universe. The overwhelming number of people who came to the Dean campaign did so for pure reasons. They are fine by me. There are a tiny number of barnicles who don't reflect well on that campaign because they are so bitter about the loss that they find the only antidote is to bash other Dems. This is a small but vocal percentage of 'Deaniacs' who aren't really Deaniacs anymore either. They are other and they are poisonous and will damage the Party in '06 unless they learn to play nice with others.

It is maddening to have to fight with your own people about who is the purest in the land when it comes to core issues. We have small differences with other Dems compared to the 'drive a truck through it' chasms we have with Repubs and Rethugs. We have to find a way to get over ourselves and get back to work. On the one hand, the negative people sap the life out of you. They are fractious, depressing and make other people run away from politics. On the other hand, don't get paranoid, that doesn't help either.

So, what is the resolution here?
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. Deaniac not necessarily a bad name
"And since when was "Deaniac" a bad name anyway, until it came to represent those who are too fanatical to let facts affect their worldview?."

Dean supporters often call themselves Deaniac, so I don't think of Deaniac as necessarily being a bad name. That's partially why some of us started using "Deanies" to differentiate those hwo are overly fanatic, especially the constant flood fo Dean trolls we had to deal with during the campaign.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. Not really about liking Dean
"Ron likes Dean somewhat less than I do. . ."

My point here is more in criticizing the fanatic Dean supporters than Dean himself, but it is necessary to dispute their argument that Dean had no faults to show the error in their interpretation of the election.

If Dean supporters weren't using their untrue accounts of the primary campaign to bash Kerry, it wouldn't be necessary to bring up these points. My major objection to Dean (his Medicare policy) is not as important in his current position which does not make policy. I doubt Dean will ever be a viable candidate again for the Presidential nomination (although it is never possible to say for certain, as we've seen with people like Nixon who have come back from the political graveyard) so his position on Medicare may no longer matter.

It is more difficult to answer as to how we respond to Dean's dishonest handling of the issue. At very least we must keep this in mind to counter the claims from his supporters that he is somehow a different type of person who is above the conduct normally seen by politicians.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #62
84. I hate to kick this but...
Edited on Tue Jan-10-06 01:14 PM by MH1
I understand and mostly agree with your post, but I re-read your OP and one thing stuck in my craw.

The "confederate flag thing". Let's get real. I know people with confederate flags on their pickup trucks and they don't have them because they're racists. They have them because to them it is a symbol of rebellion. And that is wtf Dean was talking about, and the media conveniently used it to bash him. JUST like they used the $87 B thing on Kerry.

At the time of the confederate flag comment I was prety much in "average voter" mode. I remember hearing the media beat Dean up about this and my reaction wasn't "Dean's an asshole" but rather, "Holy fucking crying out loud, how many more months of this idiocy do i have to put up with?" (meaning pundits blathering shallowly about the presidential campaign instead of talking about substantial stuff)

So I guess my point is - your valid arguments are weakened by including talking points, that if similar were used against Kerry, you would easily bat down.

And for the record, I occasionally gently point out to people who think the confederate flag is "just a symbol of rebellion", that to other people it's not, and would they put a swastika on their bumper? They usually tell me I'm full of it, but I have hope that one day they'll grow up and understand. All I can do is tell them.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Interesting point, MH1, but I have lived in the South for many years
And I can tell you that I still snicker when I see a confederate flag bumper sticker on a truck or car. True, I was born in a state whose song is "Yankee Doodle", but I think that the AA community has spoken up that they find the flag to be a symbol of racism, and I accept and agree with that assessment. True, most who fought in the war were NOT slaveholders, and they were really forced into serving but I don't think you honor that by putting up the condemned flag for all to see. The truth of the matter was and is that if there wasn't slavery, there wouldn't have been a civil war. And the confederate flag stands for the status quo of keeping slavery legal. And then this counteroffensive "Heritage not Hate" is just laughable. Once again, since the AA community has said how much that symbol hurts, if these folks had any empathy or sense of decency they would take those stickers down. But they don't, because deep down (or on the surface in some cases), they ARE racist. Somehow I don't see a confederate flag sporting southerner fighting for civil rights, do you?

How this relates to Howard Dean is that he was basically stereotyping BIG TIME about the South, when the people here are far more nuanced than that. Him being a Yankee didn't help either. My advice to a politician going into uncharted territory (for Dean, the South) is to ask questions, not make sweeping statements. It just showed a lack of class. It was the equivalent of Ross Perot calling an AA audience "you people" in '92. It just spoke of ignorance more than anything. I agree with the pundits in this case.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Well he probably shouldn't have said it the way he did.
But the party does need to find a way to appeal to the group of people I think he was talking about - not the group that the media pretended (IMO) he was talking about.

I don't think he was stereotyping. I think he was referring to a specific group of people - young, not book-educated kids who love life and don't like to be told what to do, and oh by the way, didn't have an upbringing that taught them that the AA community sees "racist" when they see that symbol that the kid thinks is just a symbol of rebellion.

I don't want to diminish the feelings of African Americans about it. But they too have to realize that not everyone in this world grows up with the same experiences and knowledge. I have known too many people who think it's just nuts to equate the confederate flag with racism. But that's because they're coming from a way different place.

And just because the AA community is saying how hurtful it is, doesn't mean that communication is reaching the white kids I'm talking about here. Maybe that's the bigger problem.

But my point is anyway, that the media just exaggerated and twisted it and imposed on it a meaning that Howard didn't intend. Just like they did over and over to Kerry. And I just think we shouldn't keep repeating that stuff against either guy. There were plenty of great points in Ron's article. I raise this one as an example of one that carries a lot more antagonism than substance, and really isn't necessary. IMHO.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Actually, I was kind of laughing at myself after I posted my response
I mean this thread is a little hostile (I don't want to get involved with the fight upthread), so I figured . . . hey, since we're fighting about the primaries of 2004, let's start a fight about the Civil War, too, just for good measure.

I think we can agree to disagree on Dean's remark -- he did make that "all Republicans are white" comment this year, so I think there's a pattern there of stereotyping -- but it's just my take on it. Everyone may perceive it in different ways.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-06 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #86
89. Fine line here
"But my point is anyway, that the media just exaggerated and twisted it and imposed on it a meaning that Howard didn't intend. Just like they did over and over to Kerry."

It is a fine line between believing the candidate making gaffes versus the media twisting things to make a candidate look bad. (Often where one falls on this will come down to whether they like or dislike the candidate).

The gaffe issue was just one of many I mentioned and, as this is one of the less important compared to issues such as Medicare, tax policy, etc, I just mentioned it in passing. To really make the case I'd have to go into more extensive quoting of Dean gaffe's from the primary period (and do we really want to get into that one in depth?) While I didn't present the evidence for this here, I believe it was much more a case of the candidate making gaffes than a case of the media twisting what he said.

One analogy here might be to Kerry's poor choice of words on voting for the funds before he voted against them. We know what Kerry meant, and defended him on that basis, but the bottom line is that this was a poor choice of words. Kerry was even smart enough to admit this. If this was done during the primaries, people might have considered this a factor in deciding if the person would be a good candidate. In Kerry's case, even if this was said before the primaries, I'd still have supported him because it was an isolated gaffe and for the most part he expressed his viewpoint better than any of the other candidates. In Dean's case, there were several gaffes in the final few weeks before the Iowa caucus which made it a legitimate question as to whether Dean was really capable of being a serious national candidate. I do not think he was up to it and would have been a disaster as a candidate. He likes to make the controversial statements which fire up his supporters, but a fair number backfire and alienate those who do not already support him.

There is also a big difference between the gaffes and outright misquotation and twisting of what a candidate said. The Confederate Flag statements and Kerrys statement on the vote were true gaffes (regardless of the validity of what the candidates might have meant to say). Most of the other things Kerry was attacked for saying were just outright twisting of what he said.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-06 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. That's the point--shouldn't have said it the way he did
See my longer post on this, but it is a fine line between whether Dean made a gaffe here and whether the media twisted it. In this case I considered it a gaffe because his actual words made it inevitable that the statement would be taken the wrong way. Dean could have spoken about the need to appeal to more groups without using such sterotypes which would alienate others.

What was done with Kerry was not really the same thing, for the most part. In rare cases, such as the $87 billion comment, it was a gaffe and Kerry (as he realized later) would have done much better if he discussed the differences between the two votes without his comment on voting for it before voting against. However, this was an exception. Most of the time when Kerry's views were distorted his statements were outright misquoted and it wasn't really do to Kerry saying anything wrong. In the case of Dean on the Confederate Flag, and Kerry's vote statement, they were gaffes by the candidates.

Also, with regards to the Confederate Flag, I was much more bothered by his statement that flying the Confederate Flag over capitols in the south is a matter of state's rights than I was bothered by his more famous quote. While Dean was right in what he intendend to say on the pickup truck line, even if said poorly, he was wrong in his acceptance of southern flags flying the flag on their capitol buildings. There is far more to consider here than state's rights.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #84
88. Political gaffe
The point is that politically it was said poorly and therefore hurt him, even if there was nothing wrong with what he meant.

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #37
58. If it means something
I have seen Kerry bashing threads, where you have not bashed him - just commented on the topic.

I think you are being too sensitive to Dr Ron's post which is a well written, clear description of the primaries written to counter Kos's view that the other candidates attacked Dean for no reason. In the primaries, the candidates will expose anything that is not good about their opponents. As someone who has obsessively followed primaries since 1968, it is easier to make a case for 2004's primaries being less aggressive and nicer than normal than especially rough.

At one point, Dean was the front runner which did make him the target. It would be unrealistic for Kerry not to emphasize that Dean had no foreign policy - this given Kerry's 20 years on the SFRC was a Kerry strength. Dean DID argue that he had executive responsibity and Kerry (and the other Congress people) didn't. Both of these were fair.

Dr. Ron didn't bring the primaries up out of the clear blue sky - Kos wrote a book that again implied that Dean lost because others acted unfairly. Dean lost because Kerry ultimately convinced more people and Dr Ron explains his own shift from Dean to Kerry. As a person who mid 2003 wanted either Dean or Kerry, I was concerned that they would knock each other out by splitting voters like me. As I read THEIR OWN literature and books, I decided I liked Kerry better. I still would have been happy if Dean won. (Note: no negatives here, I picked because although I liked both, I liked Kerry better.)
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
71. You DO need to bother - for the same reasons I do - CONCERN.
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 03:32 PM by blm
Just as you explained - CONCERN.

Very few know you well enough to know your sincerity, mf. Few know of your evolution on Kerry or how you came to realize that other forces were working against both Dean and Kerry.

I don't blame them anymore I do you, because ALL of us are subjected to manipulative actions by those seeking to keep us divided. Occasionally we get fooled into being part of it.

Keep your chin up - even when we disagree, I will always get your back when fairness demands it.

And thankyou, for taking the time to explain yourself even when you knew it might not be understood the way you meant it. It is ALWAYS worthwhile.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Appreciated.
.
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GRLMGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. .....
ahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahaha
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Hi GRLMGC!
Glad you found shelter from the rain. :hi:
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GRLMGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. thanks
Interesting what happens when you've been away for awhile, huh?
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #45
56. We were worried about you.
How are things going?
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GRLMGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #56
81. Oh, everything is fine
I was just working a lot this winter break and I would visit people since I was home. I didn't have too much time to be online. I'm back at school now so expect a whole lot more of me, haha.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Good. Very good.
Missed you kiddo! I hope the floods didn't give you too much trouble. (And hey, I told you you might get wear out of those boots in the mud and stuff. I feel better now about you having to buy them for such limited use in Boston.)
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GRLMGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. It didn't really flood where I was
I'm not sure it flooded that much in Southern CA. I'm almost positive Northern CA got the worst of the rain.
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