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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 01:59 PM
Original message
What Could Have Been and What Should Have Been
Edited on Sun Feb-19-06 02:15 PM by demdiva
Last night I was at a birthday party and I got into a discussion with another guest at the party, let's call him Larry. Larry is a republican lawyer in DC (although in between jobs right now) and in his late twenties. Larry and I are both friends of the birthday boy, but have never met before.

As often happens at DC birthday parties, the subject of the 2008 election came up. And I thought a couple things Larry said were interesting, especially for a DC republican. This is my assessment of what he said:

McCain: “I love McCain but he can’t win”

Guiliani: “I love Guiliani but he can’t win”

Hillary: “I hate Hillary more then anyone. I’d do anything to stop her from being President.”

Frist: “I don’t love Frist but would probably vote for him if he ran. I would definitely vote for him if he ran against Hillary”.

All this talk strikes me of standard fair from a republican, but then Larry said something that both surprised and interested me.

Bush: “I have my reservations about Bush. The wire-tapping thing worries me. The Abramoff scandal, the DeLay scandal, Cheney’s response to the shooting, FEMA’s response to Katrina. All these things concern me.”

Kerry: “I like Kerry. I didn’t vote for him in 2004 because I’m a republican, but I wouldn’t have really minded Kerry being President. In fact I think Kerry would be a good President.”

So in other words, this man, a DC republican lawyer and one-time Bush supporter, who I believe to be politically-interested, politically-savvy and even politically-aligned, pretty much tells me he thinks that President Kerry would have been a better president then President Bush.

Why can't the talking heads be discussing this instead? Why right now, when a year-and-a half after a presidential election the president’s approval numbers are plummeting, when there’s so many republican scandals that I have trouble listing them all, when were stuck in an un-justified war on foreign soil . . . why isn’t any of the sentiment about who SHOULD be president being voiced in the media? Not who can win. Not, who can lure red state voters. Not, who’s the best counter to this republican or that republican, but who is really the best person for the job.

Commentators (and dare I say some DUers) treat office of the presidency as if it’s the trophy awarded to the team that “got the ball into the end zone” with two seconds left in the game. But it’s not. The office of the President is perhaps the one single job that affects millions, maybe even billions, of lives. And any of the substantive talk about who SHOULD be President has gotten lost in the post-game recap of the 2004 election.

We’ve listened to too much sore-loser rhetoric and un-helpful blasting of campaign mishaps. “Kerry should have hired different consultants . . .” “Kerry let himself be branded a flip-flopper…” “Kerry didn’t gain support from the south…” “Kerry should have countered the Swift Boat attacks earlier . . .” blah blah blah.

While I see the danger of playing the “what could have been” game, the media commentary about Kerry is still stuck in the past. I wish the talk about Kerry could at least exist in the present, if not in the future. I also understand there are a lot of critical operations, infrastructure, and message issues that the democrats have to grapple with now, so I’m happy that’s being discussed. But, I also wish that there would be SOME discussion about what President Kerry would be doing and who President Kerry would be if he were in the White House. Maybe then, instead of trying to construct substance from the democrats there would actually be substance from the democrats, and we could get more people to vote for the candidate of substance in 2008.

Thanks for letting me rant DU!
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globalvillage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Actually, I hear the same thing from Republicans I know.
Several of them have told me they "kinda" like JK, although they didn't vote for him. People I work with, friends, even the cable guy who hooked up my modem the other night had nothing negative to say about him. Mostly, they say he seems like a great guy.
Of course, I reenforce that with my own experience meeting the Senator. I have yet to let that opportunity go by.
:-)
Buyer's remorse, I'm thinking. Several of them, including the cable dude, have told me they can't stand bush*.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Yep
This is why I think Kerry should run again and I think why way more people in the country will rally behind him. He should run again and I hope and pray he does. I do think he will but he doesn't want to show he is too soon because of the media (look at what they're doing to Hillary!) and I love how he's still very popular with democrats and helping them campaign. Even a guy running here for the democratic nomination for Congress here in my district has a picture of him meeting Kerry on his front page (news and terry2006.com). I remember sometime early last year Stephanie Miller read a poll with Kerry and at that time his raiting among democrats was 80%! According to history this is the highest raiting of a former presidential nominee within his own party. I think it's great Kerry is so out there and vocal not only with Alito but other tasks as well such as the small business deal he did not too long ago and his kids health care plan.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. Excellent point
I remember a lot of talk about Dean "peaking too soon" in 2004 and I think that absolutely was a factor for him. This will easily happen with Hillary in 2008 and it has always served JK well to be patient.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent rant.
Edited on Sun Feb-19-06 03:23 PM by ProSense
There should never be any comparisons between Bush and Kerry. These simply are illogical. The worse president ever, by many people's standards, cannot be compared to anyone with any experience and average judgment. So how is it that they find it justifiable to compare him to a leader? Kerry tried to point out the flawed thinking that gave Bush rise. More important, Kerry's stance on the issues are now being held up by the experts and the pundits, whether they admit it or not, as the right course for the country. And Kerry continues to lead with that kind of visionary thinking.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Exactly
Just look at Bush with Iran. He stole Kerry's plan there. :mad:
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Plus he's been through an election
with anybody and everybody trying to dig up dirt on JK and the only real criticism of the man is on the surface.
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nolies32fouettes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. non cyber people believe that Diebold gave it to Bush
Wecome to DU and KF!!!


(I'm new too. lol) :party::party:

:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:


:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. Vote for JK on DKos
I also posted this on DKos but added a poll asking "Who SHOULD be President?"
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/19/142317/055
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globalvillage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Kerry and Feingold tied at 6 n/t
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Not bad
Imagine the team Kerry and Feingold would be!
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. he's ahead at 36% now
not bad for Dkos!
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Kerry's a head on Kos?!
Please someone catch me while I faint!
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. LOL, that was what I was thinking. n/t
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. WTF does that last comment mean?
Kerry's broadband access bill helps an Orwellian police state? WTF do those people smoke?

God I hate that website.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Yeah some Kossiaks are certifiable!
Edited on Sun Feb-19-06 03:26 PM by demdiva
I honestly read that last comment twenty times and still didn't get it so I just ignored it.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I dont think the person knew what he/she was talking about.
Edited on Sun Feb-19-06 03:43 PM by Mass
Or this person really thinks that he has a transmittor in one of his teeth and that the government is following all his moves, who knows.

:crazy:
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. From what I understand of Kerry's bill you're talking of
it will make it more affordable for average people to have broadband. A couple of years ago my family and I changed from dial up to cable. We were paying $40 a month for the internet and the seperate phone line because my brother and I use it a couple of hours at least each every day to check Email and all that, so we finally decided to get cable and it's great. It's about $30 or so a month which is a lot better and it goes faster etc. I don't think the bill has restrictions does it? Just to help families and small businesses get the internet at a decent price.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. Well, I argued with the poster, and read his(?) diary on the subject.
He is accurate about the government more easily being able to spy on wireless transmissions. He is also accurate that there is some concern about the health effects of all these radiation sources we keep building. I believe he is inaccurate (and in fact sort of contradicted his own diary) in his assessment that building the necessary infrastructure will be an ineffective and/or inappropriate use of funds.

That said, the spying thing doesn't matter much to people who just want their kids to be able to use the internet for their homework. And since I already use wireless, I guess I should be worried about the FBI camping out in my back woods tapping my signal, huh?

As for health effects, his argument is like when cars started coming out, saying that we wouldn't provide fossil-fuel powered transportation for low-income folks because the pollution caused by cars would be bad for people's health. But since there is no chance of stopping the technology from being made available, that's like saying, everyone has to suffer the consequences, but only the wealthy can have the benefits.

Or the brief version, like you said: he/she doesn't know what they're talking about.
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jenndar Donating Member (911 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yeah, I have these conversations now and then with people
and they convince me that there are a significant number of Republicans out there who wish they could have a "do-over" and vote for JK. That's part of why I really want JK to be the nominee in 2008 - he's in a better position to unite the the country than any Democrat I can think of.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Exactly
I wish this were part of the story right now!
How can we get this word out?

Maybe a "I changed my mind" or "I'd like a do-over" bumper sticker would be kind of funny?? I'm sure there's something better then that but I can't think of something on the fly.
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Island Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I think just the fact that people are willing to say out loud
"I changed my mind" (or something similar) is significant. Americans hate to admit that they were wrong about ANYTHING, so if people are starting to question their own judgment on something as important as the this, I think it's a definite step in the right direction. If someone expresses their misgivings to any Democrat, we should be preprepared to be very understanding (rather than snarky) and to be able to point them in the right direction so they won't make the same mistake again. I know everyone in this group is sensible and sensitive enough to do that, I'm not quite so sure about all others though.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. so many were confused by all the propaganda
You want to feel sorry for them---almost. We remember the media tearing down JK 24/7, and * in cheerleader mode doing his imitation of a president to adoring crowds, while JK's rallies were ignored. They all made JK look like the loser, and a lot of centrist voters just don't want to be on the losing side. They'd rather vote for the winner, whoever it would be--seriously, I've heard this said. A sheep mentality!

But I said "almost". People should do their homework for real before they get to the ballot box, and not let the media dupe them. This is no beauty contest or football game; real lives are at stake (more than we ever knew in '04). No, I'm not going to yell at them--I'll be gracious--but still in my heart won't give them a pass if they had the same access to the truth that I had.

This reminds me of watching a focus group on Cspan before the election. These people sat around and gave their impressions of each candidate. They just went on such vague reasoning--who "seemed" this, or that. Who did they believe would be good. And the only thing that informed those impressions was our good old mainstream media. That focus group made me want to scream.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Maybe we can do that
by just talking to people, writing opinion pieces and on the internet.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. Most assurdley!
Does anybody have any Kerry poll raitings within the party? The blog democraticdaily had a report not too long ago earlier this month that Kerry was the most searched canidate. I found that very surprising because I was expecting John McCain.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
15. What a great and insightful post
You should make this in GD. I would. The thing that gets me is how this guy voted for Bush only because he was a republican! If I was there I would've asked this guy "what in the world makes you believe Bush is a republican?" Nixon was better than Bush! Goodness! I think it's interesting on what he said about McCain. I wonder why he felt that way. The other thing that gets me is how republicans seem to hate Hillary when she even used to be one and I bet lots of them don't know that. I wonder why they hate her. Do they hate her because of her policies? Because of how she has power being a woman? Sometimes I think they hate her just because they're told to hate her by rightwing lunatics like Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh. It's all that brainwashing nonsense. And I think it's up to us Kerry supporters to talk about what he'd be doing and getting people to focus on other things with Kerry. There is this great video that I found on archive.org with Kerry that really showcases who John Kerry really is. It talks about all he has fought for as a senator from a project he did called YouthBuild to his book "The New War" where he predicted 9/11 way before it happened and gave the warnings. Other republicans I know who voted for Bush last time at least had a reason for why they voted for him besides him having an (r) after his name such as security or something religiously. I never vote for someone simply because they have a (d) after their name. I definitley look them up, their records and what they have to say. Look at the republican party today because of doing that. I do highly believe this next time around will be an even more perfect time for Kerry and why I think he will win next time. The issues will change from being worried about gay marriage and Iraq to issues like NSA wiretapping, Constitutional rights, Social Security, people WILL be wanting health care, jobs. And James Carville does have a point with his "it's the economy stupid" thing he has going on because the republicans seriously suck at governing. But thanks for sharing this very insightful post. I do hope you post about this in the general discussion area.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Thanks so much.
Do you think I should also add a poll?
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. You could do both
It's up to you but I'd at least post about your experiences. Plus, to hear this DC republican talk about McCain and other issues will cheer people up too and give them hope. I know I always feel that way when someone posts a story of their experiences with politics and people.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. As FreedomAngel suggested I reposted in GD, so vote early and vote often
Edited on Sun Feb-19-06 07:57 PM by demdiva
I'm from Chicago originially ;-)
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Island Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Done. It's a shocker so far.
Clark only has 7 votes. :crazy: Where are his peeps?
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. The Deaniacs are out in full force though!
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Seriously?
Wow. Call me shocked!
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. I thought it was a dangerous question to ask at DKos
But Kerry ended up at 34% with 63 votes.
Feingold 25%.

The thing that surprises me most . . . Hillary ... only one vote!
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Wow
Edited on Sun Feb-19-06 07:49 PM by FreedomAngel82
How long did you have it up? Feingold had 25%? I'm really surprised! What I think is backwards with Feingold is how he's really going about trying to change the bad parts of the "Patriot Act" (which I applaud him for) but he didn't support a filibuster of Alito and he voted for Roberts. I was releaved he voted against Alito because of his views on president's (or pResident in this case) and judges.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. The post was up for four hours. I'm finding a lot of
Feingold support over there lately.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
31. OK so not a bad word about Kerry on DKos or in GD
Is the tide turning for the democrats? Are they finally focusing their anger where it should be directed . . . at the republicans!?!
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
34. OK Gore just pulled ahead big time on GD. WTF
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
37. Did we DU the DKos poll? Kerry 44%
Edited on Mon Feb-20-06 08:16 AM by demdiva
This morning Kerry is at 44% on DKos with 78 votes and it 's off the list of threads so I figure it's not going up much from there. Feingold was in second with 20%.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/19/142317/055

On GD, Kerry is only at 15%. Gore ahead followed closely by Dean / Clark.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=468478&mesg_id=468478

Hillary is not doing well on either poll.

Interesting and surprising.
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. I just voted for Kerry in the DKos poll
He's still way ahead. :)
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Hmm, 44% at Dkos and 15% at DU...
I think I'm in the wrong forum! (Not this one, of course! :) But DU in general. )
I wonder what makes the difference? Are most people here too far out on the left fringe? Not really, because they like Gore and Clark. They seem to like candidates that come out very aggressively against the WH and *--when Kerry does, he's their man, but then he gets replaced by Gore or whomever. "Red meat du jour".

So what kind of politics is that? It's not about any policies or ideas, it's merely a knee-jerk ABB reaction.
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globalvillage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. The Clarkies go to other forums
and tell people to come here to vote.
They told me that, and seemed pretty proud of it.
So, I never pay attention to DU polls. Clark will always win.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Actually Gore is killing though!
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. I don't trust DU polls at all. I know of at least one way to vote several
times and I am not even that computer savvy. I also find it strange that the Gore and Clark groups rarely ever use their forums yet are out in force for the polls.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Yeah you just have to clear the cookies :)
I considered doing it when I saw that Gore was pulling ahead, but poor Gore already was screwed by voter fraud once!
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