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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 05:45 PM
Original message
Kerry as a representative of the religious left?
An interesting blog post that came my way via a Google 'John Kerry' alert.

http://www.getreligion.org/?p=1427

Here's the part that talks about JK and the religious left:

<snip>
A deep-blue religious left is almost exactly the same size as the religious right but receives much less attention. John Kerry is perhaps one representative of this group, which draws members from many Christian denominations and is a product of the same theological restructuring that created the heartland culture warriors. Members of the religious left espouse a progressive theology (agreeing, for instance, that “all the world’s great religions are equally true”) and are very liberal on cultural issues such as abortion and gay marriage. About a quarter attend church weekly. The religious left is somewhat liberal on economic policy and decidedly to the left on foreign policy. Its stances on both moral values and the Iraq War — but especially the latter — have pushed it further into the Democratic camp. Seventy percent backed Kerry in 2004; 51 percent had backed Gore in 2000. The religious left was the largest — and the fastest-growing — single tribe in the Kerry coalition.
<snip>


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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.
The religious left: "a quarter attend church weekly;"


This is by far the stupidest attempt to paint Kerry as someone outside the mainstream. There is no religious left. The religious right are kooks who sit around and come up with stupid crap like this. The Democratic Party a cult? What happened to painting the party as too disorganized to stand for anything?

So they shift gear to say that the party stands for something, so now it's a cult.

Hold on....









:rofl:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. And another thing:
separtation of church and state. The RW can't distinguish between religion and politics, so they're trying to drag Democrats into a conflict plaguing the Republican party.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Right
Edited on Sun Feb-26-06 06:20 PM by FreedomAngel82
One thing I love about being a democrat is my personal religious beliefs don't matter. I can worship God freely as I choose to and it won't matter to them. I'll still be as equal as someone who doesn't go to church and vice versa and that's how it should be.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Going further than the article
The article separates out different groups of people. Forget about their use of labels/tribes for a moment.

There are the religious groups on the far right who oppose separation of church and state, etc.

There are religious people on the left, including Kerry.

There are also many other groups mentioned in the article on both the left and right.

It is the labeling of religious people on the left "religious left" which makes the article sound distasteful, but the article is not suggesting that the "religious right" and "religious left" are similar types of groups. I'd be wary of having the term "religious left" be quoted because of the misconceptions that might arise, but the article is not drawing this type of similarity between religious right and religious left.
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Noisy Democrat Donating Member (799 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I'm confused
I haven't read the whole thing, just this snippet, but from this, I didn't see what the problem was. I was sitting here nodding and thinking that sounds like me and a lot of people I know. Did I not read carefully enough?
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. me too.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Do you consider
Edited on Sun Feb-26-06 07:26 PM by ProSense
yourself part of a tribe? A religious voting bloc like the Christian Coalition?

That's what so dangerous about generalizations: they seem harmless if the implications are ignored. Democrats across the spectrum of the left voted for Kerry and support Kerry. And Democrats who are religious are spread across the spectrum as well. The religious right is defined by a very specific ideology, they are fundamentalist. I don't see a religious left akin to the religious right.

Does that make sense?
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I see...I skipped over the word tribe
assuming they wanted a different word than group. But you're right. It'a a frame job!
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. This statement aptly defines the difference
between the religious right and the religious left -

"Members of the religious left espouse a progressive theology (agreeing, for instance, that “all the world’s great religions are equally true”) and are very liberal on cultural issues such as abortion and gay marriage."

They are not akin to the religious right and again as I said in my post above, with out being able to read the entire piece this quote was taken from it should not be confused with the points that the blog post maybe making.

The "tribe" reference does not just denote a religious or spiritual voting bloc. Veteran's for Kerry could be described as a tribe, Environmentalists for Kerry and so on...

Tribe:

2 : a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tribe

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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. There is a religious left
Edited on Sun Feb-26-06 06:51 PM by rox63
I've dabbled a bit in it myself. Quite a few members of UU and UCC congregations, Reform Judaism, Quakers, and some other denominations consider themselves part of the religious left. There are liberal Catholics that qualify as well.

A few links about the religious left:

http://www.alternet.org/sms/23725/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29653-2004Jun9.html

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/159/story_15998_1.html

http://www.beliefnet.org/story/121/story_12148_1.html
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. OK!
I've seen a lot of these groups, the term is a little foreign. I still maintain that the analogy in the OP to the religious right and a tribal mentality is dangerous. The religious left as described in the articles at these recent links has more to do with the assertion that there are people of faith on the left who stand up for Democratic principles and abhor the religious right's muddling of religious and political issues.


Is that a correct assessment?
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yes
The religious left includes people of varying beliefs, but who take their spiritual beliefs seriously. Many are activists against poverty and war, and for human rights around the world. They are not nearly as organized as the religious right. But they may be just as numerous.

BTW, I am in no way advocating the whole 'tribal' thing. That's just one viewpoint among many.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks!
In this context, the religious left is a good thing. The word "tribe" should never be used to describe them

Vektor just posted about Romney, who is already being questioned about the "Mormon cult."
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. It's like "don't think like an elephant" by lakoff
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. A tribe is not a cult
Cross referencing 3 thesauruses, each one shows no reference to the other in their lists of synonyms.

A cult is "a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents" - http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/cult

A tribe is "a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest" - http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tribe

No one would call a Native American tribe a cult. Nor would anyone in ancient times refer to a Roman or Celtic tribe as a cult.

Again, I pointed out in a privious post on this, I didn't see any reference to "cult" in that post linked here.

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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. It's not ridiculous
Edited on Mon Feb-27-06 01:25 PM by kerrygoddess
With out being able to read the entire article this is quoted from it's impossible to know where the authors of the quote were going with it. One of the authors of the quote is the founder of Beliefnet -- a website that discusses ALL religions with a very open mind. I subscribe to their Daily Buddhist Meditation emails.

Some of what this quote is describing was discussed during the election cycle and there were in fact various religious groups that were actively "for Kerry" groups, such as Catholics for Kerry.

"A deep-blue religious left is almost exactly the same size as the religious right but receives much less attention."

I've seen demographic comparisons that show similar numbers on both sides of the spectrum, for "religious" voters. Democrats and liberals do not tend to "wear their faith on thier sleeve" as JK pointed out during the campaign about himself. Because Democrats and liberals don't attempt to force their religious views on others, as the religious right does, there is much less attention paid to the religious left.

"John Kerry is perhaps one representative of this group, which draws members from many Christian denominations and is a product of the same theological restructuring that created the heartland culture warriors."

There are many Christian faiths melded into the religious left, as opposed to a more limited selection of Christian faiths on the religious right. I would also add that perhaps more members of other faiths are Democrats - Buddhists, Hindus, Judaism - to name a few.

"Members of the religious left espouse a progressive theology (agreeing, for instance, that “all the world’s great religions are equally true”) and are very liberal on cultural issues such as abortion and gay marriage."

Again I see this as a truth and not a drawback. The religious right pushes the notion that their
faith(s) is the only faith. Where as the religious left understand that the foundations and principles of each of the world's great religions are basically the same and each hold similar truths. Great theological scholars get this.

"About a quarter attend church weekly."

I remember a study during the election cycle that pointed out that less religious Democrats tend to go to church that religious Republicans.


"The religious left is somewhat liberal on economic policy and decidedly to the left on foreign policy."

Thank God(dess) that the religous left is more liberal on economics and foreign policy. Someone has to be and truth is Jesus was a liberal, so was Buddha.

"Its stances on both moral values and the Iraq War — but especially the latter — have pushed it further into the Democratic camp. Seventy percent backed Kerry in 2004; 51 percent had backed Gore in 2000."

I've seen studies that show that JK had the largest Catholic turnout and I believe Jewish turnout as well. Again this is a good thing. Was it as large as the religous right turnout. I'm not sure, but Democrats don't exploit the religious left the way Reliblicans exploit the religious right. It's a recognizable force of voters, that could be better mobilized if done with out the same type of exploitation that the religious right uses.

"The religious left was the largest — and the fastest-growing — single tribe in the Kerry coalition."

The word tribe is derived from the Latin "tribus" meaning "a division of the Roman people." - http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tribe

In today's word a "tribe" would denote "a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest."

Although the religious left is made of members of a more diverse selection of faiths and spiritual thought forms, the religious left has the common character of being liberal thinkers.

The religious right has long waged a war against the more liberal faiths particularly since the 60's and the "Age of Aquarius". Note that during the Clinton era we saw far more "new age" authors on the NY Times nonfiction bestseller list than we do now. These days the it's all "End Times" theory authors who dominate the NY Times nonfiction bestsellers list. During the Clinton administration, the liberal, "new age" thinkers dominated the best sellers list with authors like Marianne Williamson, James Redfield, Deepak Chopra, Thomas Moore, Neal Donald Walsch, Sam Keen, etc.

The original link - http://www.getreligion.org/?p=1427 notes that different "tribes" go to different movies and uses Brokeback Mountain as expample and quotes the paragraph from an Atalantic Monthly piece. I see references to the religious "culture wars" but I don't see where it says that because the religious left stands for certain principles it's a cult.

Windsurfer Magazine had a great interview with JK in 03 I think. He talks about spirituality in that interview and does so with the open mind of a liberal thinker. JK also gets that we need to embrace all faiths and although we are a secular nation, the religious and spiritual views of voters do matter when they go to the polls.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Your statement
"Although the religious left is made of members of a more diverse selection of faiths and spiritual thought forms, the religious left has the common character of being liberal thinkers."


This is exactly the point I made in my subsequent posts. Most people are not going to determine the Latin origins of the word "tribe" and refering to "liberal thinkers" as a tribe is a stretch. I understand all the points being made about group size, voting for JK, the religious right and the rest, and I stand by my assessment of this article and the use of the word "tribe."
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. See my post #18
A tribe is not a cult and the blog post referred to by Rox never uses the word cult.

The entire point of the blog post was about the movie industry and the writer used the quote to show the difference in demographics for the movie Brokeback Mountain.

A tribe is a group. I have no problem with being a member of the liberal thinking tribe. Likewise I am proud of my Celtic heritage which is also tribal. Native American's are proud to have various tribes. "Tribe" is broad term.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. be careful with this stuff
This line is very troublesome: agreeing, for instance, that “all the world’s great religions are equally true This speaks to the charge of 'moral relativisim' that the RW flings at the left all the time. (The talking point says that the left does not believe in right and wrong and in moral absolutes like abortion is murder, but fudges the edges and believes that morality is defined within and because of the events that lead up to the event.) This is dangerous ground and not true. This argument is employed to show that the LEft has no moral underpinnings, no real abiding belief system that distinguishes right from wrong, just a series of shifting 'opinions' that can differ from day to day. This has been a particular attack on the LEft since the Reagan days.

There are people on the Left who are Evangelical, Fundamentalist and Christian. Evangelical refers to the Biblical injuction to go out and preach 'the Good Word' to humanity. Fundamentalist belief regards the Bible as inerrant (completely true and incapable of error.) Don't tar some very good people with the sins of the whole. I know some very, very good and 'liberal' people who are practicing Christians who are Evangelical and Fundamentalist. This alone does not mean they are Rethugs. (Ahm, I refer you to the recent movement by some Evangelical Christian to begin a very serious environmental movement based on the concept that man is responsible for keeping God's Creation in good order and that we need to do more for the environment.)
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Personally, I prefer to think
that all religions have at least a piece of the truth in them. That's somewhat in line with the UU point of view. Although there are UU's who are are self-proclaimed Christians, The UU denomination does not proclaim itself as Christian. I know Christian UUs, Buddhist UUs, Jewish UUs, Pagan UUs and atheist UUs.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. The interesting thing
Is that the last Pope taught that, with the caveat that Catholicism contained all those pieces of truth. Still, I've heard many hard right Catholics say he wasn't a true Pope because of that teaching, and the teaching that God judges the hearts of people and that we shouldn't be teaching any sort of ex-clusive salvation theology.

Anyway, some pieces are just pieces because people have a job to do. That's how this one really strikes me. Not terribly interesting or insightful. Irrelevant.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. The author of that line (or authors)
not sure which, is the founder of Beliefnet a website that discussed all forms of spiritual and religious theory with a very open mind. During the election cycle they had interview with JK and Bush and each were very non biased.

The whole point of the original post was highlighting the movie industry and the poster used the quote being discussed to point this out -

Here’s the point. If you apply the Waldman and Green matrix to movies instead of to politics, then you could reach this conclusion. Brokeback Mountain is a solid, artistic niche movie for the hard left in American life — a niche that is larger than the hard right (and is dominated by Oscar voters and Hollywood’s most loyal supporters in blue zip codes).


Note the poster points out "the hard left in American life" is a "niche that is larger than the hard right."

Brokeback Mountain speaks to certain audience. We all know many red states won't show the movie. If anything the whole piece is a dis on the movie industry but not the "religious left."

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. Belief.net had very good profiles explaining
the religious beliefs of Kerry and Bush. They seemed pretty fair. (I have one daughter who really likes that site, who showed it to me during the election.)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
22. Maybe read the whole thing
Edited on Mon Feb-27-06 01:23 PM by ProSense
Not everyone will agree with how Waldman and Green have defined the other folks in the Republican and Democratic tribes — the “heartland culture warriors,” the religious left, the “moderate evangelicals,” spiritual but not religious people, etc. But it was good to make this attempt, and others should spin their own versions. Anyone seeking compromises on tough moral issues has to venture into this territory, the muddy land in between the rock-ribbed religious voters who define the Republican primaries and the anti-evangelical voters who dominate the Democratic primaries and fundraising.



Seems they are drawing similarities to me.

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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Maybe read the whole study
because the study itself has a lot of validity on the 2004 election results and similar finding have come out in other studies.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. The original study this quote came from
Is here on Beliefnet -

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/153/story_15355_1.html

And there's more here -
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/153/story_15363_1.html
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/153/story_15362_1.html

The date for this study came from Fourth National Survey on Religion and Politics - http://pewforum.org/publications/surveys/green-full.pdf

Check this out:

The political awakening of the Religious Left carries several implications for the Democratic Party. For one thing, Democratic leaders cannot view the party as primarily secular. Add up the numbers of the Religious Left, Democratic-voting Latino Christians, Black Protestants, and the modest support from conservative Christians and you have 52% of Kerry's vote. Secular voters did vote in record numbers for Kerry but only accounted for 16% percent of his vote.

More worrisome for Democrats is the fact that Kerry lost in spite of record mobilization of the Religious Left.

Was that because the Left was out-hustled by the Religious Right? In part. Bush did do well among the most conservative religious voters, increasing turnout from 62% to 69%. But the share of the total Bush vote from the Religious Right actually declined slightly (from 16% in 2000 to 15%).

But where Bush showed the most improvement was among the "Heartland Culture Warriors," mainline Protestants and Catholics with traditional beliefs and practices. In 2000, Bush won 66% of the Heartland vote; in 2004 he won 72%. Turnout was also up for this group. - http://www.beliefnet.com/story/167/story_16763_1.html





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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. Reviewing the Atlantic Montly article
I pulled up the Atlantic Montly article this comes from.

On one level it is fairly accurate, if you are simply looking for people with similar beliefs and call them a tribe. Yes, there are religious people on the left and John Kerry is one of them.

It would be a misrepresentation to consider the religious left and religious right to be similar (or even opposite sides of the same coin). The most important distinction is that the religious right seeks to use political power to impose their religious views on others. In contast, people like Kerry on the so-called religious left might personally oppose abortion, but recognize the importance of hte separation of church and state and do not seek to impose their religious views on others.

If someone wants to differentiate different views, and calls one the religious left and includes Kerry, this could be accurate. Just be careful of attributing any additional meaning to this.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Curious
If the Atlantic Monthly piece is the same as what's online at Beliefnet -
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/153/story_15355_1.html

Is there a link to the Atlantic Monthly piece or is it print only.

I honestly did not get from the quote that is was calling the two groups the same. The entire study outlines 12 groups or tribes. It's an interesting study, it even breaks down the percentages of voters in each of the 12 tribes that voted for JK and Bush.

The quote discussed here only talks about 2 of the tribes:

Tribe Index

-- THE "RELIGIOUS RIGHT"
-- HEARTLAND CULTURE WARRIORS
-- MODERATE EVANGELICALS
-- WHITE BREAD PROTESTANTS
-- CONVERTIBLE CATHOLICS
-- THE "RELIGIOUS LEFT"
-- SPIRITUAL BUT NOT RELIGIOUS
-- SECULARS
-- LATINOS
-- JEWS
-- MUSLIMS & OTHERS
-- BLACK PROTESTANTS

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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. The article
The article is here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200601/tribal-relations

I don't know if it is available to nonsubscribers.

The quote is NOT callling the two groups the same. The problem is that by using similar terms (religious right and religious left) it gives the impression that it is drawing more similarities between the two groups than is really intended.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Thanks
Subscriber only - a couple of paragraphs though. An expansion or variation on what they have on Beliefnet.

One great point that is in one of the paragraph's available though is this:

"Soon it became clear that the "values vote" had been exaggerated. Only one fifth of the respondents listed moral values as the primary basis for their vote."

It's clear they wrren't calling the two groups the same, even the original paragraph quoted here pointed out where the left is different.

There's a link on Beliefnet about the methodology for "political junkies" that's also interesting -
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/153/story_15363_1.html

I think the only correlation the study found was that the left group and the right group were similar in size.

The whole thing is fascinating IMO.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Posted in Kerry Reference Library
I posted the full article in the Kerry Reference Library. It's not that great an article but it might be useful to have the original article in case people start making claims that The Atlantic Monthly says Kerry is on the religious left and imply they're saying he's like the religious right:

http://kerrylibrary.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=12&view=findpost&p=3026
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