Interesting article from Pat Buchanan on JK's call for deadlines.

[_dynamicdems]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan39.html

I think this is worth a read.

[jillan]

1. Wow - DD - this is worth a read.

Buchanan is not a bsh fan at all.
And what is even nicer about this article is that Buchanan is all over the msm.
We might see him standing up for Kerry when the famous question comes up by people like
Joe Scarborough asking "what is the dems message?' "What alternative do they have for Iraq?"

Guess Pat was watching Tweety last nite :).

Thanks for posting.
Post this in gd - ok?

[karynnj]

2. I wouldn't count on that

Buchanan is still a loyal Nixon man and in 2004 much as he hated the war in Iraq, he hated Kerry more. The problem for him may be that in his brain he knows Kerry is right.

Here he's considering everything from a political point of view - not what is the best solution for the US and Iraq. If Kerry were just out for LW credit, he would simply call for out now. I saw one post on DU freting about what happens if they do form a government, calling Kerry stupid for having the other path. That Kerry has explained in every interview that he hopes they take that past and clearly feels it's the better option mystifies them. Buchanan is a Nixon hack, Kerry is a statesman.

[jillan]

3. Wishful thinking?

Time will tell.

It was a nice fantasy, picturing Buchanan standing up for Kerry...sigh.

[_dynamicdems]

4. I actually think Buchanan might have voted for Kerry over Bush

I know he bashes Kerry with the best of them, but he's had respect for Kerry at the oddest times...

During the primary, he said that Kerry was like a Thoroughbred racing against a field of nags. He also said that Teresa was a "lovely woman." And by the tone of his voice, he meant it.

When asked who he was going to vote for in 2004, Buchanan hemmed and hawed...and I honestly felt he wanted to say "Kerry" but he said, "It doesn't matter who I vote for. I live in a red state."

[Dr Ron]

8. I recall him saying he supported Bush over Kerry

Even though he disagreed with Bush on the war and other issues, he listed far more issues he disagrees with Kerry on. Remember, he is a strong social conservative.

[BlueIris]

10. He told Jon Stewart, "It doesn't matter (how he would vote)..."

"...I live in a Red State, Jon."

Buchanan, though not a total asshole all the time, was probably unable to get past his prejudice against liberalism and vote for Kerry. I think it's remotely possible that he either didn't support Bush or didn't vote for President, though. Not like he'd ever be dumb enough to admit it.

[_dynamicdems]

5. If you want to post this in GD, go ahead. I'm a little afraid to because

I think they will twist it around. I've got some things this weekend and I can't really tend to a post full of bashers.

[JI7]

7. it was already posted in GD

there were a few idiots with the stupid responses.

but many of the responses were from some of us on this forum mostly talking about what a great President Hubert Humphrey would have been . and the comparison to Hillary does not hold.

[_dynamicdems]

15. I loved Hubert Humphrey.

As a young teen, I campaigned for him with the Teen Dems and was crushed when he was defeated. He was so much more honorable than Richard Nixon and he would have made a wonderful president. I truly believe that despite his ties to Vietnam and the Johnson Administration, a President Humphrey would have gotten us out of Vietnam sooner and better. We will never know.

[karynnj]

18. I agree -

I was 18 and a freshman in college. Humphrey really was a great person and as to getting us out of war, LBJ had nearly worked out a peace plan before Nixon and Kissinger threw in monkey wrenches - if Humphrey would have won - he could easily have had Johnson complete the work and the 2 of them would have ended the war.

[sandnsea]

6. Except Hillary isn't tied to Iraq

As somebody pointed out in GD, Humphrey really was tied to Vietnam, being Johnson's VP. Hillary isn't in the same position at all, she can easily turn on Iraq. She's more like Johnson, she's actually tieing the party to Iraq because she thinks she has to be tough on war to become President.

And of course, I don't think it's any better idea to compare Kerry to Bobby than it was to compare him to Jack. Which is probably the exact reason he did it.

[karynnj]

9. I think you're right on both points

It managed to hurt both of them - Hillary because it contains the implicit idea that she can't change her Iraq position and she can. It also let people point out that she was far less liberal than Humphrey.

For Kerry, there is always a good side and a bad side to being compared to an icon. All of the icon's flaws have been forgotten, while all the good things magnified - in this case more so for RFK than for JFK. For Ted Kennedy to say that Kerry was carrying his brothers' torch to another generation as he did at the Kennedy Center honoring Kerry is very high praise as was his endorsement within months of Nov 2004 of Kerry 2008. I doubt Kennedy would cavalierly say either if he didn't mean it. But this is a burden Kerry doesn't need.

[ProSense]

12. This article is

definitely not intended to flatter Kerry. I don't trust Buchanan. This is one of those instances when just because someone is against Bush, doesn't mean they're an ally.

[karynnj]

13. I thought that too

mainly as he posits the change as "political", which it clearly isn't - a simple "out now" would work better for that - though it would be awful policy.

I think, that like the TNR piece, there will be a lot of neo con allies fighting this - because as bad as Iraq is, they don't want to change course, other than a few drop outs. Looking at the run u to the war and the election, even the NYT and the WP were not on our side.

Yesterday's NYT had 5 or 6 LTTE on Kerry's op-ed, only 1 was positive. I find it very hard to believe that that simply reflects the ratio of letters they received. One writer first says "Much as I admire John Kerry ... " then proceeds to say why this is an awful idea.

[ginnyinWI]

11. it's interesting to view Kerry from the other side's perspective

One thing about Buchanan: he's a thinking conservative. Not that I'm anywhere close to agreeing with him on anything except how bad * is. One thing: he's not counting Kerry out of the mix, unlike a lot of people in the media. He's smarter than that!

[Dr Ron]

14. Thinking conservative

I agree. Even though I usually disagree with him, he has ideas, rather than blind Bush worship as so many on the right practice.

Before the 2004 election he was arguing that the major divide was the cultural war. This was before everyone was talking about this after the election. While it was over emphasized after the election, and was not as major as national security in the election, Buchanan gets credit for talking about it before the other TV pundits.

[Inuca]

16. I kind of like Buchanan....

... the emphasis being most definitely on "kind of". But there were times when I found myself agreeing with what he was saying, or at least giving it a second thought & wondering whether maybe he is right. And he does not seem to be a whore, which is what I hate most. People with different view points I can live with...

[karynnj]

17. I think that's because he is against the war in Iraq

His positions on many things are very extreme. He is a world class bigot - he feels that immigrants are diluting the American culture - ignoring that the WASP population likely felt that about his Irish ancestors. He is probably anti -semetic (which is why the idea that Jews knowingly voted for Buchanan was not likely.) I first knew his name as a Nixon person.

I do agree that what he says he believes is what he believes - but that doesn't make it good.

[Dr Ron]

19. Buchanan anti-semetic?

I don't know if Buchanan is personally anti-semetic but during his career he has used anti-semetic code words similar to the manner in which George Bush plays to the religious right. I have seen claims from those who know him that he is not anti-semetic. Not knowing him I might give some credence to their view, but it is irrelevant. Playing to those who are anti-semetic on a national political scale is just as bad as personally being anti-semetic.

There are many injustices in this world. During part of his career Buchanan took to defending the cause of Germans who might have wrongly been convicted as Nazi war criminals. While perhaps there were some, unless one is going after the anti-semetic vote this is not the injustice which most people would concentrate on.

Obviously the Florida butterfly ballot votes were a mistake--often jokingly referred to as "Jews for Hitler" votes.

[karynnj]

20. I think it may come from the Nixon years

The tapes showed Nixon and many of his people to casually make anti-semetic commants, but he did have some Jews like Kissinger and Safire who were important in his administration.

I shouldn't have written that as I can't back it up - it was repeated as common knowledge (which doesn't make it true) in the Jewish community here in 2000.

[Dr Ron]

21. More than Nixon years

Buchanan continued to pander to anti-semetism after his Nixon years when he went out into politics for himself. Whether or not Buchanan is personally anti-semetic, he did take advantage of the feelings. Sometimes there really is some truth to "common knowledge."

[jillan]

22. Yes - I heard that too.

and from what I understand - was not as much of a political junkie those days -
is that's what cost him the nomination.

[sandnsea]

23. Oh, he's a tricky sob

He definitely has his own views and isn't afraid to say what they are or disagree with the Bushies, I don't think he likes them, personally. But that's just what makes him so useful to the GOP, like McCain. People get used to thinking he'll say what he really thinks, so they don't recognize when he moves into partisan operative, and he does. His persona even changes when he does it, somebody said he gets a different kind of smirk and glint in his eyes, that's pretty close. Watch for it.

[TayTay]

24. He is totally partisan

And no friend to anyone on the Dem side. He hates this war because he is an isolationist at heart. I will never forget Buchanan's speech at the GOP convention in '92. As Molly Ivins said about it, "It probably sounded better in the original German."

(No offense to our friends of German heritage here. The reference is specific, not general.)

[JohnKleeb]

25. None taken but I don't think Bucahan is a devout GOP loyalist

anymore, Ive heard him say that he probably voted for Peroutka in 2004. He's definely an isolationist and isolationlism whether it be foreign or economic scares me. He's definely the only true heir to Robert Alphonso Taft's legacy.

[ProSense]

26. He doesn't have to be loyal.

I forgot when it was when I saw him with his sister, Babe (what a pig). Buchanan has issues and I certainly wouldn't embrace his criticism as genuine sans a creepy agenda.

[JohnKleeb]

27. He's definely loyal to the traditional conservative movement

but I sincerely do think he dislikes Bush.

[ProSense]

28. Neither he nor Babe does, but

no matter how much they waffle, they still go back to Bush:

Babe having it out Al Franken in May 2004 on CNN:

BUCHANAN: Absolutely that's not true. The president has always taken responsibility for Iraq. He has placed the entire presidency and indeed his legacy on the line for Iraq. And last night he said he stands by his goals in Iraq. And he will pursue them and they're honorable ones and he's asking for the American people to support it. As for John Kerry, John Kerry has not come up with original thought. Every time he says the president doesn't have a plan and the press asks him, he basically says the president should do exactly what he is doing.

FRANKEN: That is so not true. That is so not true.

BUCHANAN: He has no alternative whatsoever. And that is why he's in trouble. The Democrats have no alternative to the president. Ralph Nader is the only alternative when it comes to Iraq.

FRANKEN: No, no, no. That's ridiculous. The president is moving toward Kerry's position. Kerry said months and months ago that we should internationalize this coalition and get NATO in there. That is absolutely not true, Bay. It is not true.

Buchanan from the November 8 2004 issue of American Conservative:

Coming Home

By Patrick J. Buchanan

There is a final reason I support George W. Bush. A presidential election is a Hatfield-McCoy thing, a tribal affair. No matter the quarrels inside the family, when the shooting starts, you come home to your own. When the Redcoats approached New Orleans to sunder the Union and Jackson was stacking cotton bales and calling for help from any quarter, the pirate Lafitte wrote to the governor of Louisiana to ask permission to fight alongside his old countrymen. “The Black Sheep wants to come home,” Lafitte pleaded.

Both very nasty.