Not so innocent

[karynnj]

A certain DU person, is innocently postulating that VA 06 is the key for 2008. She notes Clark's support for Webb, and implies that a Kerry endorsement would lead to victory.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2612252&mesg_id=2612326

[wisteria]

1. Now isn't that suggestion a little over the top. n/t

[karynnj]

2. Yes

First of all Webb, at least the last time I heard, in spite of all this high level support, is not doing significantly better than Miller.

So, Kerry is suppose to forgive a man, who could possibly have been the difference in 2004 (it was so close almost anything is). Especially when that man won't forgive him or shake his hand because Kerry told the truth that Webb still can't face.

[wisteria]

3. I would be disappointed if Senator Kerry were to even consider

this request.

[ginnyinWI]

4. could you fill in the clueless ones like me?

I don't remember this episode. :shrug:

[beachmom]

6. Webb is basically a Swift Boat Liar enabler

Someone can provide the links, but the guy said we should "question the loyalty of John Kerry" for protesting against the war. He also said the "SBVT have a point about John Kerry". And he said this in 2004.

I commented over there, but I think other issues are more important: 1) Webb has barely any money and 2) he is a total amateur, unable to talk about anything with authority EXCEPT the Iraq War.

[beachmom]

7. But I found that Time magazine article ominous

So now Warner is going to support Webb? Say it ain't so, Marky! So is the Party going to back Webb? Anybody know?

In general, though, the guy is a show horse, not a work horse. It's sad, but a lot of people in Virginia don't care about the Iraq War that much. They care instead about health care or gas prices. Miller is better equipped to talk about these issues than Webb. And did you see from my post that Miller has pretty much endorsed Kerry's plan on Iraq, albeit without an exact time frame? I like it.

[JohnKleeb]

13. Nah I think Mark's just going to stay neutral

What's been bugging me about this whole race is the notation of Webb supporters that only he could beat Allen and thus that's why he's the better candidate. I find it amazing that some of them question Miller's loyalty to the party because Miller was chairman of the Fairfax County Democratic Party from 1986-1993 as well as on special committes that Governors Robb, Bailes, Wilder, and Warner appointed him to but not a single appointment by Governors Allen or Gilmore. I don't like the way Webb thinks of the anti war movement of the 60's and early 70's. It's not just his aminsotity to Kerry that bothers me it's that I had many in my family protest that war and Webb seems to think that those who protested Vietnam were bad people who were hurting the troops. I don't think Warner or Kaine will endorse either candidate to be honest and I don't think Kerry will either, and in a way I am glad he won't because I want him to continue show that he's the bigger man so to speak than Webb is.

[fedupinBushcountry]

10. Good response

I read the same editorial, sounds like Miller is doing good, Webb may know war, but lacks in everything else.

I still haven't gotten my bumpersticker, I'll have to try again. Haven't seen one sign out there for either. OT did the same as you but actually voted for 2 people last week, Villaeuva, and Jim Reeves. Villanueva is a Filipino and we have a very large ilipino population here, they need his voice. Reeves loss, and he may have loss to the woman you voted for. Very low turnout, but I heard that Dems gained seats in Chesapeake so that is good news. I have no idea who is who here at the beach.

[beachmom]

14. Darn -- this no party affiliation business is so confusing!

Yeah, I voted for Henley, because I thought she would slow down development, but who knows, I could be wrong. I sort of thought she was a Democrat, but who knows? Okay, next time I'll do my homework. Sorry if my very weighty vote (well, with a 17% turnout rate that makes us pretty powerful) now means our demise. But the other guy was heavily financed by developers and real estate companies, so that struck me as GOP. Oh well, I think we're in agreement on this primary AND the general AND who we want as prez in '08. So one city council member won't divide us!

[fedupinBushcountry]

16. Well

the reason I voted for Reeves was because he was backed by Kellam and Owen Pickett, who use to be a Dem congressman, I met him several times at my kids ballfield in Norfolk, he retired, but I can't remember if Scott took his place or the Repub guy who had to resign then Drake showed up. Have you seen the Drake ads done by Moveon? I saw one last week during the Today show. I hope she loses it was disgusting how she had Cheney come for one of her fundraisers.

[JohnKleeb]

19. Speaking of local elections you guys

The immigration issue is real as anything and my town was a battleground. We have a new mayor and two or three new city coucil members. I unfortunely could not vote because I don't live in the "town of" area.

[fedupinBushcountry]

21. Hey Kleeb

were they Dems ? I know for the first time Norfolk elected a mayor and the Dem won, he was also the incumbent and Norfolk is a very liberal city.

[JohnKleeb]

23. Republican vs Republican

I believe it was. It's messed up honestly that we have a local minuteman chapter. The whole immigration issue is so complicated honestly.

[ginnyinWI]

12. thanks

In that case, he's my sworn enemy. :mad:

[fedupinBushcountry]

5. I know who the person is without

even looking, she is also from this area. Oh well, she can dream. We just had an opinion piece on Miller in our paper. They are not endorsing anyone yet, but say that what Miller lacks in foreign policy matters, Webb lacks even more on all the other issues. Also Webb is shying away at a debate with Miller, I think they have one scheduled, but Miller wants more.

I doubt very much that Kerry will endorse Webb, he said himself that he will not be supporting everyone on military vet candidate's list.

I wonder if she'll feel that way if Webb loses. For me, I am for Miller, I don't agree 100% with him, but IMO he will be a real democrat in the Senate, not one just dressed as one, as Webb is.

[beachmom]

8. Well said, Fedup n/t

[karynnj]

9. Playing around on the web,

Webb said that debates weren't the best way to meet people and let them get to know him. That is pretty strange and likely means that his debating skills aren't too good or it may be that his lack of knowledge on all but the war would show. It would seem this would be a major deficit in the general election.

Miller has asked Rumsfeld to resign. Webb didn't when Clark and someone I forget both called for Rumsfeld to resign and endorsed Webb.

[globalvillage]

24. Miller has an Iraq exit strategy

http://miller2006.org/pressRelease.jsp?key=215&t=

Compare it to Webb's
http://www.webbforsenate.com/issues/issues.php#iraq


Mr Miller may not have foreign policy experience, but it appears he has given the matter considerable thought.

If there is any substance to Mr Webb, he should at least hint at it on his website.

[JohnKleeb]

32. I noticed this

Odd that a career techie like Miller has more details than Webb whose campaign has talked a lot about foreign issues.

[ProSense]

54. That's cool! Thanks for the links GV.

I don't really trust Webb. Frankly we don't need another Lieberman in the Senate. I know Web claims to be against the war, but I don't trust him.

[JI7]

11. this is about the primary isn't it ?

i don't see the purpose in doing this if it's a primary. if it was the general election i can understand wanting Kerry and other Dems to back whoever to beat the Republican.

but i don't see the purpose in pushing someone to endorse in a primary. especially considering what Webb has said about Kerry.

why not demand Webb take back and apologize for what he did to Kerry before demanding Kerry support him.

[JohnKleeb]

15. Right

Kerry has been much more mature than Webb has regarding the whole Vietnam thing. The thing that's been bothering me about this race othar than Webb's statements is the way Webb supporters act. They get furious when someone questions Webb's loyalty to the party but then push falsehoods that Miller is a republican in disguise. I wish we had better candidates honestly but Miller is much more preferable to Webb. I even used Miller's minimum wage increase support in my speech two weeks ago.

[JI7]

18. do you know how much support they have right now ?

what are Miller's chances ?

the Webb supporters sound like a bunch of assholes.

[JohnKleeb]

20. No idea

I think it could go either way. Miller has a good amount of support from actual Virginians. However, Webb does have some Virginian support like Lesilie Bryne who ran for Lt Governor last year and Chip Peterson who she beat in the primary for that. I am not sure who Creigh Deeds who narrowly lost for AG is backing. Also the two guys who ran Warner's successful governor campaign, Mudcat Grant and Steve Jarding are behind Webb. I think Miller will do better here in the Northern Part of the state than Webb will to be honest in a primary because he as I said was county democratic chair and our county supervisor, Gerry Connolly is fond of him as our some of our state senators including my own.

[fedupinBushcountry]

26. I thought

Miller had some Warner people helping him too? I haven't seen much action on the ground yet, but a debate is coming up, have to check that out, I think a debate will show who should be the candidate.

[karynnj]

27. Can Independents or Republicans vote in the Democratic primary?

Though I'm not sure who that would help.

[fedupinBushcountry]

28. Anyone can

we don't list our affiliation.

[JohnKleeb]

30. Yeah

We got no party registration.

[karynnj]

22. It seems that a lot of Webb's support

comes from Dkos and other webroots. He also was endorsed by Bob Kerrey (who consider that it was JK who supported him when he was attacked) and Wes Clark. It bothers me that they put out this garbage that because Miller heads a tech industry association (so, he's a lobbyist) that he is not a true Democrat. That he's been active as a Democrat since he was worked on RFK's campaign was not good enough proof that he was a Democrat. Meanwhile, Webb gave money and endorsed Allen in 2000.

- Different charges - but this is swiftboating. (Military service ->known participation as a Dem) and

[JohnKleeb]

29. Hackett too

He had a really dumb comment that showed to me how ignorant of Virginia politics he was when he was asked about Miller on DKos. Right, Miller is a lobbyist and gets labeled as a not real democrat becuase of that but if you look at his donations via www.opensecrets.org, you'll find that he's been giving mostly to Democrats and yes I admit some Republicans but he is a Democrat who got his start on the RFK campaign in
68 who worked on Senator John Durkin's staff and was later appointed to special committees by all of our last Democratic governors since Chuck Robb while at the same time NOT serving on any when we had GOP governors. HE's not a perfect candidate I acknowledge but these netroots really are IMO naive when it comes to Webb and others like him. I think there will be some Virginian Democratic primary voters who may be turned off by Webb having all these outside influnences behind him while at the same time running an outsider campaign. This is what happened to Dean in Iowa too. Ran an outsider campaign yet he had the endorsement of Al Gore and Tom Harkin who were the last two guys to win the Iowa Caucus behind him. Webb's military service is nice I acknowledge but I haven't seen anything about him that shows that he shows the Democratic party's values and some of his writings make me wary of the guy.

[karynnj]

37. Very insightful Kleeb!

That does sound like the hyped Dean campaign - though Dean was a more polished candidate. (I never thought I'ld ever write that!) You're right that if the webroots descend on Virginia, the Virginians may not like them. I also bet that in Northern Virginia, it's a rare person who doesn't know and like some lobbyist. There are likely many people who know that lobbyist does not mean Abramoff.

I was worried about the Clark and Kerrey endorsements - but you are correct that they didn't help Dean.

[JohnKleeb]

39. I can tell you I would certainly be irriated if someone from out of state

came knocking on my door and told me that James Webb is the best thing since sliced bread and that Harris Miller is a closet Republican because of his lobbying background. I admit it I have a lot of skepticalness with the Netroots. I think that Kos is just another partisan hack with his own agenda. Dean I forgot to mention spent tons of money in Iowa too. It really comes down to who is able to communicate with the regular people the most. Not all voters are activists and the activists support doesn't always determine who wins.

[fedupinBushcountry]

51. Another thing also

they didn't get Hackett elected either. Those on Dkos jumped on the vet candidates because of Hackett. What I always brought up to them where were they in '04 for a young vet here in Virginia that was running against Drake.

Let me tell you something about some military people, some wear their rank on their sleeve 24/7 and their arrogant attitudes too. I met many when we were in military life for 20 years. Not all of these candidates are ready for the big step into politics and I think Kerry knows this and he will back those who he knows will be good for the party on a whole.

[JohnKleeb]

52. Kos's record on electing candidates is 0-16 or 17

Either way he seems to be poison to be honest. I also just don't like the guy and maybe this makes me a bad person but I am happy his book isn't selling well. He's not the real "netroots", he's a paid political operative with his own agenda and what really pisses me off about him is how he is a one issue freak. He wouldn't give a damn about Jack Murtha if Murtha hadn't came out opposing the war. I knew who Murtha was before hand because he's from the same part of PA as my mom's folks and I know he tries to help out those people.

[karynnj]

17. Because the poster

likes Webb and not Kerry and she has consistently set up these annoying little situations.

I wouldn't blame Kerry if he does stay silent even in the general election. But after what he said and refusing to shake Kerry's hand, I'm not even sure what Webb would want him to do - other than send money.

[JI7]

25. i don't think the poster dislikes Kerry

i'm pretty sure she likes him though not a huge supporter.if she dislikes anyone, it's Clark. but because he endorsed her candidate she is being positive about him. she is a huge Webb supporter. but i don't understand why she can't see the reasons why Kerry would not endorse Webb , especially in a primary.

[Mass]

33. I have seen a lot of comments on how he does not connect

and her darling (other than Webb) does so well.

[JI7]

36. yeah, but she has praised him for things also

i guess i'm just basing it on comparison to some of her comments on Clark which were far worse. but it is possible she doesn't really like either of them.

and if Kerry doesn't connect why does she want him to endorse him. shouldn't she be pushing Edwards to endorse him since in her opinion Edwards is the one who can connect.

[karynnj]

40. She's been in many threads

where people have posted all Webb's odious garbage. So, I can only see it as a jab at the Kerry supporters ( as Kerry himself is unlikely to see it.) because we refused to concede that Webbb walks on water.

[Mass]

42. I asked her if she thought Webb would take a Kerry endorsement

I dont think it is even worth talking about whether a Kerry endorsement is possible or not given that Webb, IMO, would not take it. The rest is irrelevant.

[karynnj]

45. I saw your post

He really recently said he wouldn't shake Kerry's hand. What a self-important jerk. Kerry is by far the better person.

[beachmom]

48. Thanks, Mass for the heads up. Here's the link to George Will

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/28/AR2006042801994.html

Hmmm . . . doesn't this mean he WOULD now shake John Kerry's hand?

In 1992 Webb supported the presidential campaign of another Vietnam veteran, Nebraska Democratic Sen. Bob Kerrey, who now is national finance chairman of Webb's campaign. Webb says, "I wouldn't shake John Kerry's hand for 20 years" because of Kerry's anti-Vietnam activities, but "I voted for him" in 2004.

1971 + 20 years equals 1991?

And then there's this:

Although Webb has concentrated his fire on Allen, Miller attacked Webb until Sen. Chuck Schumer, who is head of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee and hates primaries, told him to desist.

Oh, so another words, Chuck Schumer hates democracy? Because that's what a primary is!!!! Okay, it looks like the Party is now supporting Webb. Sigh. Or George Will is lying, which is very possible.

Gee the RW LOVES Webb -- the National Review and now George Will.

[JohnKleeb]

50. Didn't Ford pardon people who had something to do with the draft too

I swear I remember reading that. Webb says that he left the Democratic Party because of Carter pardoning all the evaders. I thought I heard that Jerry Ford did something similiar too. Either way Webb's attiude concerning Kerry is really immature and he needs to stop being so brash and arrogant which is ironically what Kerry's detractors say he is.

[karynnj]

56. Nope, Ford pardoned Nixon - not the draft dodgers

I still find it weird that an intelligent man couldn't see the parallels between speaking out on Iraq which he did and VN. He clings to the view that that was a necessary war. It may be that he lost too much, either of himself or friends, in Vietnam to allow himself to conclude as Kerry, painfully did, "that it was for the biggest nothing".

The Kerry journal quotes in Tour of Duty dwell on possibly dying for nothing. From hoping that it had meant something for his good friend (Pershing) who died to worrying about dying himself when he was assigned to the most dangerous base, it seemed to make a difference (even in his own case) whether the cause made sense. It may be that Webb needs to believe that good was accomplished to balance what was lost.

[wisteria]

53. I don't trust him at all, I think if he gets in he will join up with the

Republicans. I see him as a turn coat. It may well be Will and the RW do also. He is bad news!

[karynnj]

55. Thanks, Beachmom

So, he actually voted for Kerry. But if his editorial swayed even 2 "on the fence" people to vote for Bush, the net effect is that he voted for Bush. It's true he said bad things about Bush on Iraq, but this was a known situation. On Kerry, he distorted Kerry's protesting and the last 20 years of work on veterans' issues and Vietnam - much of which was only weakly defined (which is a campaign flaw), and as such vulnerable.

It will be interesting to see how much disgust will be posted on DU and the blogs about Schumer playing favorites in the primary here. :sarcasm: It sounds as though Miller is continuing his campaign though.

[beachmom]

35. True -- she said once that she would consider Kerry for '08

That's why I try to stick with facts and not get too combative. I can't believe she lives around here. I found out where Dems meet, but now I'm afraid to go; what if they're all Webb lovers and Kerry haters? I may as well go to a GOP breakfast!

[Mass]

31. I would have no pb with Kerry doing that,.

That would show Kerry is superior to these jokers.

But would Webb take the endorsement? Until now, he has made clear that he wanted to have nothing to do with Kerry.

[karynnj]

43. self-delete

Webb is a bigger creep than I thought -

[Mass]

44. I dont think it is that easy. Nobody is going to make the effort

to endorse somebody who does not want the endorsement. Why should he bother?

As I said, I trust Kerry to do the right thing. I just dont think Webb wants it.

[karynnj]

46. I agree and as you said neither should or would make the effort

[JohnKleeb]

34. Ok I read a little more in that thread

Defeating Allen would be a great thing but it does not promise the Democrats victory in 2008. First off Allen is not hte only plausible Republican nominee who can use the good ole boy thing to his advantage. Haley Barbour anyone? The guy is a governor and can use his distance from the Bush administration's unpopular things in a GOP primary but use the popular things in a GOP primary to get support. He's also quite socially and economically conservative, I don't know what he thinks regarding foreign policy though.

[beachmom]

38. Did you see my "Allen is a racist" link?

It's all over Virginia now. This may sink him nationally. The Republicans are very careful to keep their xenophobia to the following categories:

illegal immigrants
gays
liberals

Many rank and file Republicans may be racist but I don't think they want to nominate someone with a racist past. And, you know, give them credit. Given the 32% approval rating, aren't they kind of sick of *, for which Allen is a carbon copy (you know, stupid is as stupid does)?

[JohnKleeb]

41. Ive read it

I think race issues wise Allen may be enen worse than Bush to be honest.

[globalvillage]

47. Harris Miller on George Allen

On why he thinks Allen is not a good leader: "Because he's a Republican first, a Republican second and a Republican third."

http://miller2006.org/news.jsp?key=2226&t=

[JohnKleeb]

49. Thats consistent with what Miller's been saying

That he wants to bring what has worked here in Va to the senate. What has worked here is that there isn't blind partisanship by our governors and state elected officials and the state's economy has gotten better.